1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 12 Nov 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 632       Contents:! Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature? ! Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature? ! Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature? ! Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature? ! Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature?  Re: Broken TK50  Re: Broken TK50  Re: COBOL F$EDIT Re: COBOL F$EDIT Re: COBOL F$EDIT Re: COBOL F$EDIT! Re: DEC 40 years commemoration CD * Re: No doubts here (Was: Re: Galaxy doubt)# Re: SPEC_int92? SPECrate_fp95? etc.  Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US elections
 Re: Time Zone 
 Re: Time Zone 
 Re: Time Zone & Re: [VMS V7.2] BACKUP Behaviour change& Re: [VMS V7.2] BACKUP Behaviour change& Re: [VMS V7.2] BACKUP Behaviour change  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:33:34 +0000 & From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@Compaq.com>* Subject: Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature?* Message-ID: <3A0D9F0E.75442BEC@Compaq.com>   Howard S Shubs wrote:   = > In article <3a0ceeed.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>, ! > martin@radiogaga.harz.de wrote:  > 9 > >As any system manager worth his money should have DFU:  > ' > Wow, is -that- ever a rash statement!    But ever so true in my opinion.       $ Life without DFU ain't worth livin'.  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.- (certainly not squeaking on behalf of Compaq)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:28:04 -0500 , From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>* Subject: Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature?> Message-ID: <hshubs-2B7684.15280411112000@news.mindspring.com>  L In article <3A0D9F0E.75442BEC@Compaq.com>, Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@Compaq.com>  wrote:  % >Life without DFU ain't worth livin'.   A Okay then, I'll bite: remind me of what DFU is.  Disk F* Utility?  --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:28:47 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> * Subject: Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature?- Message-ID: <3A0DBA0F.A59B846E@earthlink.net>    Howard S Shubs wrote:  > M > In article <3A0D9F0E.75442BEC@Compaq.com>, Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@Compaq.com>  > wrote: > ' > >Life without DFU ain't worth livin'.  > C > Okay then, I'll bite: remind me of what DFU is.  Disk F* Utility?   # My, MY! Getting a bit testy are we?   G Seriously, I was able to cut a good three hours off the run time of one E site's backups by making the /RECORD phase asynchronous to the actual A BACKUP job. The tools implemented were DCL, SEARCH, EDT and - you  guessed it - DFU!    DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ mc dfu   1      Disk and File Utilities for OpenVMS DFU V2.7       Freeware version 1      Copyright  2000 COMPAQ Computer Corporation   	 DFU> help    DFU     A   The ODS-2 Disk and File Utilities is a high performance utility >   developed to perform routine maintenance and special purpose
 operationsC   on disks, files and directories. The functionality offered by DFU >   is not or partly available through other DCL commands or VMS
 utilities.A   Version V2.7 also works with the new ODS 5 file system and deep 4   directories. Further, V2.7 is fully Y2K compliant.     =   NOTE: DFU V2.7 is a freeware product, use at your own risk. C   Refer to ftp.digital.com/pub/VMS for the latest freeware version.   "   DFU has the following functions:  .     o DEFRAGMENT : defragment individual filesG     o DELETE     : delete files by file-id, and delete directory(trees)  fast     o DIRECTORY functions B                  : COMPRESS , CREATE , DUMP or RECOVER directoriesH                  : search directories for files with multiple versions ,6                     alias files , or empty directories-     o REPORT     : reports disk fragmentation #     o SEARCH     : search for files &     o SET        : set file attributes(     o UNDELETE   : recover deleted files:     o VERIFY     : analyze (and repair) the disk structure      #   Additional information available:   C   Problem_reports       Restrictions          DEFRAG     DELETE     	 DIRECTORY 8   EXIT       HELP       New_Features_V2.7     REPORT     Screen_Management ?   SEARCH     SET        SPAWN      UNDELETE   Usage      VERIFY    DFU Subtopic?   H Note that the version you want for OVMS V7.x is V2.7-1. There's an ECO-1= that fixes a problem with using a file list for SET commands.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:18:10 -0500 , From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com>* Subject: Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature?> Message-ID: <hshubs-A351DC.20181011112000@news.mindspring.com>  B In article <3A0DBA0F.A59B846E@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" $ <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:  $ >My, MY! Getting a bit testy are we?  J Nono... trying to be funny.  Guess it didn't work.  <sigh>  I -know- I've 1 heard of that thang, but I know I've not used it.     2 >     Disk and File Utilities for OpenVMS DFU V2.7  = Ah!  This is the one that scans the INDEXF.SYS directly, yes?     I >Note that the version you want for OVMS V7.x is V2.7-1. There's an ECO-1 > >that fixes a problem with using a file list for SET commands.  N Is it on the freeware CD-ROM?  Where do I get it?  I've just finished setting N up a test box that I can try it on.  My company will -not- let something like M that on a production box, probably ever, but certainly not if I've not shown  N them any benefit and compatability with their application software and Oracle. --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:56:46 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> * Subject: Re: *.*;-0: undocumented feature?- Message-ID: <3A0E230E.79ABDD14@earthlink.net>    Howard S Shubs wrote:  > C > In article <3A0DBA0F.A59B846E@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" & > <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote: > & > >My, MY! Getting a bit testy are we? > K > Nono... trying to be funny.  Guess it didn't work.  <sigh>  I -know- I've 3 > heard of that thang, but I know I've not used it.  > 4 > >     Disk and File Utilities for OpenVMS DFU V2.7 > ? > Ah!  This is the one that scans the INDEXF.SYS directly, yes?  > K > >Note that the version you want for OVMS V7.x is V2.7-1. There's an ECO-1 @ > >that fixes a problem with using a file list for SET commands. > O > Is it on the freeware CD-ROM?  Where do I get it?  I've just finished setting O > up a test box that I can try it on.  My company will -not- let something like N > that on a production box, probably ever, but certainly not if I've not shownP > them any benefit and compatability with their application software and Oracle.  . http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/DFU027/  E ECO-1 is not there. It includes .EXEs for VAX and Alpha. I'll find it ; and put in the freeware area on my website. Look for it at:   # http://www.djesys.com/freeware/vms/    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:51:06 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Broken TK50L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1111001451060001@user-2ivear9.dialup.mindspring.com>  W In article <1001110181326.2092C-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:     H > I had to pull power from the drive before removing it from the cabinetF > (power cable isn't long enough), so I don't know.  It was amber, andD > looked like an LED, but I'm not sure what a photodiode looks like.   <snip>  D > Maybe a problem with the BOT sensing?  There seems to be a slot inB > the part of the leader that is permantly attached to the take-upC > reel that should be sensed by the same LED/photodiode that senses 3 > the hole at EOT, maybe that isn't working right?    G Sounds like a good possibility.  Either the LED, the photodiode, or the G circuits they drive may be sick.  Have you cleaned the dust-bunnies out  around the LED & diode?   K Does SET MAGTAPE/REWIND work ok?  That's not the same as unloading, and I'm J not even certain it stops at the place where the index hole is in front of< the LED.  But it's something to do 'till the doctor arrives.  H It _might_ still be the tach.  If the tach isn't accurate, I don't thinkH the drive can count inches of tape, and it might get very confused aboutL where it is.  If the tape slips past the tach roller, there may be problems.N That might happen if the tape tension is wrong, or if the tach turns very hard due to lack of lubrication in its bearings.  But if you take it apart, I don't know how to restore the alignment, and I don't know how much it matters.      > I think the EOT D > hole is probably ignored when reading.  When it reaches the end ofB > a track, the read head probably senses this and initiates a head! > reposition to the next track?     I Dunno.  It would be very interesting to have a look at the service manual  for these drives.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 04:15:46 GMT + From: John Santos <john.santos@verizon.net>  Subject: Re: Broken TK50> Message-ID: <MPG.1477e3801ffebb69989698@news.bellatlantic.net>  - In article <rdeininger-1111001451060001@user- A 2ivear9.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com says... Y > In article <1001110181326.2092C-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:  >  > J > > I had to pull power from the drive before removing it from the cabinetH > > (power cable isn't long enough), so I don't know.  It was amber, andF > > looked like an LED, but I'm not sure what a photodiode looks like. >  > <snip> > F > > Maybe a problem with the BOT sensing?  There seems to be a slot inD > > the part of the leader that is permantly attached to the take-upE > > reel that should be sensed by the same LED/photodiode that senses 5 > > the hole at EOT, maybe that isn't working right?   > I > Sounds like a good possibility.  Either the LED, the photodiode, or the I > circuits they drive may be sick.  Have you cleaned the dust-bunnies out  > around the LED & diode?   F Just did that.  Found one bit of fluff under the takeup reel, which I E removed for the 1st time.  It seems to be working better now, I.e. it G eventually unloads, though the 1st time I tried it, it spooled back and J forth a few times and took several minutes.  Inserted a tape, mounted it, I and then did an immediate "$ dismount/unload".  I spun back and forth for F about a minute, then seemed to go back to the load point, both red andE green lights on.  (It looked just like a "$dismount/nounload" at that B point.)  After waiting a bit, it seemed to be doing nothing, so I H released the red button, and it wound forward and back a couple of timesG before finally unloading.  Later, I tried to resume my V7.2 upgrade and G thinking it wanted the 2nd tape, started up with that one in the drive. F Turns out it is still in Upgrade Phase 2, which was trying to load theH Library and optional savesets from the first tape, which I left at work.G Anyway, after failing to find the save-sets on the 2nd (wrong) tape, it F successfully unloaded the tape all by it self, which is a good sign.  ? I'll have to retrieve the 1st tape before going any further...    M > Does SET MAGTAPE/REWIND work ok?  That's not the same as unloading, and I'm L > not even certain it stops at the place where the index hole is in front of> > the LED.  But it's something to do 'till the doctor arrives. > J > It _might_ still be the tach.  If the tach isn't accurate, I don't thinkJ > the drive can count inches of tape, and it might get very confused aboutN > where it is.  If the tape slips past the tach roller, there may be problems.P > That might happen if the tape tension is wrong, or if the tach turns very hard > due to lack of lubrication in its bearings.  But if you take it apart, I don't know how to restore the alignment, and I don't know how much it matters.  >  >  > > I think the EOT F > > hole is probably ignored when reading.  When it reaches the end ofD > > a track, the read head probably senses this and initiates a head# > > reposition to the next track?    > K > Dunno.  It would be very interesting to have a look at the service manual  > for these drives.    I've never seen one...   --   John Santos    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:40:54 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>  Subject: Re: COBOL F$EDIT - Message-ID: <3A0DBCE6.553F3D41@earthlink.net>    norm lastovica wrote:  > 7 > whoops - I lied - there are 3 parameters to bas$edit:  > H >         destination_string_descriptor - string descriptor by referenceC >         source_string_descriptor - string descriptor by reference # >         edit_mask - word by value  > 8 > So only the destination descriptor needs to be dynamic; > if it has a different length than the source.  Of course, 8 > the same string descriptor can be used for both source > and destination.  E I never had a problem using a MAPped string as the target of EDIT$().    5 > Here's an example of how a call might look from C):  > 2 >         BAS$EDIT (&dststr, &srcstr, 16 + 32 + 4)  0 In DIBOL I think it would have looked like this:  8 	longword_vbl = BAS$EDIT( dest_str, src_str, word_mask )   ? > All of this stuff *used* to be documented back in VMS version > > 3 in the (as I recall) "language support routines" RTL book.B > I regret the day just this past year when mine hit the dumpster.  ) *SIGH* Hindsight *IS* *ALWAYS* 20/20, no?    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:53:10 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: COBOL F$EDIT , Message-ID: <3A0DBFC2.8E4F4C40@videotron.ca>  I The C run time library is designed to handle null terminated strings. So, J while you can technically call "strstr" from COBOL, you'd have a find time8 building null terminated strings to pass to the routine.  N What sort of string paradigm does the basic language use natively ? Isn't it aN counted string (first byte determines length of string) ? If so, wouldn't that6 make using the basic RTL from COBOL rather difficult ?  N The VMS RTL is based almost exclusively on desrcriptors which Cobol is capableM of supplying. So I woudl think that using the VMS STR$ routines would provide M the easiest and most trouble free interface. For one thing, you wouldn't have N to worry about having to link your cobol program with the basic RTL, since the/ STR$ routines are available by default, right ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:15:25 -0800 2 From: "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.com.nospaam> Subject: Re: COBOL F$EDIT 2 Message-ID: <8ukkas$ks9$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>  8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3A0DBFC2.8E4F4C40@videotron.ca...K > The C run time library is designed to handle null terminated strings. So, L > while you can technically call "strstr" from COBOL, you'd have a find time: > building null terminated strings to pass to the routine. >	K > What sort of string paradigm does the basic language use natively ? Isn't  it aK > counted string (first byte determines length of string) ? If so, wouldn't  that8 > make using the basic RTL from COBOL rather difficult ? >kH > The VMS RTL is based almost exclusively on desrcriptors which Cobol is capableeG > of supplying. So I woudl think that using the VMS STR$ routines woulda providelJ > the easiest and most trouble free interface. For one thing, you wouldn't haveL > to worry about having to link your cobol program with the basic RTL, since the 1 > STR$ routines are available by default, right ?e  > DEC BASIC, VAX BASIC, BASIC-PLUS-2 all use string descriptors.8 The first two use the standard VMS descriptor, while BP2 uses a simpler version.-  8 The BASIC EDIT$(,) function works fine with both dynamic strings and fixed strings.  ; While the BASIC RTL routine is callable from COBOL, I wouldg9 recommend using the STR$ RTL routine if there is one thate is suitable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:11:36 -0600h7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>n Subject: Re: COBOL F$EDIT - Message-ID: <3A0E2688.FB9039FE@earthlink.net>v   JF Mezei wrote:i > K > The C run time library is designed to handle null terminated strings. So,.L > while you can technically call "strstr" from COBOL, you'd have a find time: > building null terminated strings to pass to the routine. > E > What sort of string paradigm does the basic language use natively ??  > On VMS, it uses standard VMS constructs, unlike the C-library.   > Isn't it a< > counted string (first byte determines length of string) ?   E It's a DEC 3GL. therefore, it uses string descriptors fully compliante with VMS calling standards.D   > If so, wouldn't that8 > make using the basic RTL from COBOL rather difficult ?   See the above.  sP > The VMS RTL is based almost exclusively on desrcriptors which Cobol is capableO > of supplying. So I woudl think that using the VMS STR$ routines would providecO > the easiest and most trouble free interface. For one thing, you wouldn't havesP > to worry about having to link your cobol program with the basic RTL, since the1 > STR$ routines are available by default, right ?   H True. However, if you look at Norm's list of available operations for heE EDIT$() function, you'll find some that have no STR$xxx() equivalent.s  H BAS$EDIT() or DBASIC$EDIT() should fully usable in any VMS 3GL using theF VMS calling standards. The BASIC RTL function which supports FORMAT$()D would be especially useful in most non-BASIC 3GLs on VMS, but may beB difficult to use in those languages which have limited support for/ dynamic strings and dynamic string descriptors.r   -- 2 David J. Dachtera  dba DJE SystemsF http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:24:35 GMT2% From: hg/jb <shsrms@bellatlantic.net>w* Subject: Re: DEC 40 years commemoration CD0 Message-ID: <3A0DD66E.8053178F@bellatlantic.net>   Phillip Helbig wrote:  > G > In article <u9ol0t808ja9g5o1p025ur0npe808c7u2a@4ax.com>, Steve Lionele# > <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> writes:e > H > > No - it's just a slide show (with not many slides)  Some audio clipsJ > > and a few AVI files. Ken Olsen appears only as a glimpse in one of theI > > AVI files. There is also some inane "trivia" game associated with it.c > J > Err, who can remember the most names under which DEC/Digital/Compaq sold) > a unix operating system?  :-)  :-)  :-)tG Ultrix, OSF/1, TruUnix, DUNIX, VMS, Ultrix32, POSIX, and I think there a was one more... D If I recall correctly, under the "open standard banner" I think VMS ; qualified as Unix cause of the POSIX compatibility mode....  bobI > G > > If you play the CD in a music CD player, it has a version of a songnG > > originally by Greenday (but performed by some studio artists).  The J > > song title as shown on the CD is "Time of Your Life", but the originalJ > > Greenday title was "Good Riddance", which amused many of us no end.... > I > Reminds me of the discussion when it became known, after Microsoft used E > the Stones' "Start Me Up", that R.E.M. had refused an offer (of $15dJ > million or so) to use one of their songs: no-one knew what the song was.H > "Losing my Religion"?  Someone suggested "It's the End of the World as$ > We Know it, and I Feel Fine".  :-)4 What was the theme for 2080 - ride of the Valkyries?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Nov 2000 15:43:58 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)m3 Subject: Re: No doubts here (Was: Re: Galaxy doubt):* Message-ID: <8ukb2e$s6b$1@lisa.gemair.com>  , In article <3A0B132D.341C382C@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:>" >steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:J >> OpenVMS.  The renaissance is real, the future is real and the future is@ >> OpenVMS.  The commitment to OpenVMS comes right from the top. >eK >While there is perhaps a greater hope than in the past, I feel it is stilllC >premature to state this. Palmer on many occasions had made similarEM >"commitments" to VMS. Didn't Palmer make some sort of long term "government".2 >commitment similar to the current DII CEO thing ? >g6 >The DII CEO thing is a waste of money IN MY OPINION.   C It's DII COE (Defense Information Infrastructure, Common Operating  A Environment).  DII COE certification is technically separate, buthA perhaps related, to commitments by Compaq to support OpenVMS for t$ some period of time into the future.  F DII COE certification may well be required for Compaq to place OpenVMSA in certain Defense Department deployments in the future.  I read "F somewhere that Compaq believes that failing to have this certification? would lose .5 Billion in system sales over some period of time.u  : Even if you believe these estimates to be optimistic, it's> probably a good investment, just in terms of avoiding lost DoD5 sales, for Compaq to get OpenVMS DII COE certified.  h   -Jordan Hendersonp jordan@greenapple.com:   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:34:58 GMTf! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com>>, Subject: Re: SPEC_int92? SPECrate_fp95? etc.& Message-ID: <WvcMyAAkOfD6Ew43@gol.com>  8 In article <3A0D7239.94D5C55@Easynet.fr>, Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Easynet.fr> writes> >In http://www5.compaq.com/alphaserver/archive/comp/nov95.html >.H >I see SPEC_int92, SPECrate_int92 and in the VMS 20 years presentation,  >SPECint_rate95. >.+ >What are the differences, and the meaning?d > H >I remember that SPECmarks superceded the VUPS, then spec int (integer?)F >and fp (floating point?) came. Where are these units defined, please?8 >And are they still evaluating nr of CPU operations/sec? >a >Thanks, >D.c    : For details on SPEC stuff, including the new SPEC CPU2000: http://www.spec.org.  F Compaq also list the relative power of their Alpha and VAX systems at < http://www5.compaq.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html   Iank   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:24:32 -0500t, From: "Glenn C. Everhart" <Everhart@GCE.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsg% Message-ID: <3A0DB910.9413B4@GCE.com>.  B While the electoral college came into being for historical reasons0 that don't interest many now, it has some value.  C Consider that there are regularly accusations of bias in elections,t; of fraud, invented votes, etc., especially in large cities.t  > The electoral college provides something of a firewall against? some of the effects of fraud. Basically, if an election dependsR> only on popular vote, one fraud that invents a large number of< votes in some jurisdiction that is lax in identifying voters= (there are several such), with the electoral college, such a  B fraud cannot affect more than one state result. (If everyone voted; for electors as one voted for Senators and Congress(wo)men,n. the firewall effect would work better still.)   : As it is with the present election, we are being shown howA one particular county chosen after the fact has issues. It shoulds> be remembered that misvoting, mistabulation, voter confusion, ? and mistake occur all over. (I found the voting booth this timeD7 slightly confusing, but figured it out quickly enough.)s  ; While a focus on the remedy in one or two counties seems to ? suggest a remedy, remediating only a few areas heavily favoring.9 one party introduces a huge bias by the choice of area tod: remediate. The fair remedy might be to come up with a less: error prone system, much stronger voter authentication and@ redundant questioning, and background checks as needed to ensure; eligibility. If this is not to be done nationwide, though,  < selecting one or two counties to do it in, leaving the rest,< is biased by the choice of location. I don't see a practical? way to avoid imprecision of vote count that will take less thana years to implement.m  < That has nothing much to do with the merits of the electoral< system. When the vote totals are equal to the precision with< which the counts of legal, single-voting, qualified citizens> are known, some anomalies must be expected. We will never know@ who actually won the popular vote. Neither did we in 1960. There; is too much error, and too much probable fraud somewhere ore< other to know. I do suspect though that the electoral system7 removes the temptation from anyone able to produce hugea> numbers of fake votes from doing so. Enough to swing the state9 is all that would be needed. We don't need the floodgates,0 opened to people who decide to swing the nation.     David Mathog wrote:u > ^ > In article <3A0B8581.753F833F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:Q > >From the coverage of the florida elections, I got quick glances at what lookednP > >like the old punched cards, and there was mention of voters punching holes to > >make their selections.e [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:12:19 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsl, Message-ID: <3A0DFC80.DACC340A@videotron.ca>   "Glenn C. Everhart" wrote:E > Consider that there are regularly accusations of bias in elections,n= > of fraud, invented votes, etc., especially in large cities.t  N Consider that each week, lotteries can process millions of "votes", and withinL a couple of hours of the winning number having been selected, they can countN all of the "votes" and announce if there are winners, and from which region of the country they came from.t  P (And VMS is supposed to have a large penetration share of the lottery business).  M When third world nations get elections, there are often observers who oversee K the process to ensure that the results can be trusted. Seems to me that the M USA has just been sent a big blow because of the doubt that has been put into  its election process.n  K I think that technology could be used to ensure an accurate count the first - time around, and a count that can be trusted.i   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Nov 2000 03:57:13 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US elections,0 Message-ID: <8ul4ep$a5k@dispatch.concentric.net>  F Glenn's points are well taken.  Consider for a moment that without theJ electoral college, we would be doing recounts all over the US.  Literally,F every precinct and county.  Even in areas where one candidate did veryG well (look at the West Palm Beach situation) to see if more votes couldtK be garnered.  In a very close election like this one where we are currentlyt at lessrG than 1/10 of 1% nationwide seperation in the popular vote, recounts and  charges.J of fraud, confusiuon, ballots not quite right, whatever, would be taken up nationwide.EH Before doing away with the electoral college, we need to think about the
 ramifications K of moving what is happening in West Palm Beach to the entire nation.  Do wei reallyK want that?  The more I observe the wisdom of our founding fathers, the morei amazedK I am.  I dare say the best and brightest today would probably not get it asv closefL to right as they did so long ago.  Look at how the worl has changed, yet the basiclJ structure setup 220 years or so ago continues to serve use extremely well.  E I do think better technology, standardized across the nation, with NOe electionL result information (actual or polled) available until ALL polls close acrossI the nation would be in the country's best interest.  We can wait till then nextK day to know the results.  We don't need to know how the election went while + people are still on their way to the polls.t   Just my opinion,   Rick Cadruvi...y    7 "Glenn C. Everhart" <Everhart@GCE.com> wrote in messages news:3A0DB910.9413B4@GCE.com....D > While the electoral college came into being for historical reasons2 > that don't interest many now, it has some value. >aE > Consider that there are regularly accusations of bias in elections,D= > of fraud, invented votes, etc., especially in large cities.  > @ > The electoral college provides something of a firewall againstA > some of the effects of fraud. Basically, if an election dependse@ > only on popular vote, one fraud that invents a large number of> > votes in some jurisdiction that is lax in identifying voters> > (there are several such), with the electoral college, such aD > fraud cannot affect more than one state result. (If everyone voted= > for electors as one voted for Senators and Congress(wo)men, / > the firewall effect would work better still.)I >)< > As it is with the present election, we are being shown howC > one particular county chosen after the fact has issues. It shouldI? > be remembered that misvoting, mistabulation, voter confusion,TA > and mistake occur all over. (I found the voting booth this time 9 > slightly confusing, but figured it out quickly enough.)) >a= > While a focus on the remedy in one or two counties seems tosA > suggest a remedy, remediating only a few areas heavily favoringW; > one party introduces a huge bias by the choice of area to < > remediate. The fair remedy might be to come up with a less< > error prone system, much stronger voter authentication andB > redundant questioning, and background checks as needed to ensure< > eligibility. If this is not to be done nationwide, though,> > selecting one or two counties to do it in, leaving the rest,> > is biased by the choice of location. I don't see a practicalA > way to avoid imprecision of vote count that will take less than  > years to implement.< >e> > That has nothing much to do with the merits of the electoral> > system. When the vote totals are equal to the precision with> > which the counts of legal, single-voting, qualified citizens@ > are known, some anomalies must be expected. We will never knowB > who actually won the popular vote. Neither did we in 1960. There= > is too much error, and too much probable fraud somewhere or > > other to know. I do suspect though that the electoral system9 > removes the temptation from anyone able to produce hugea@ > numbers of fake votes from doing so. Enough to swing the state; > is all that would be needed. We don't need the floodgatesi2 > opened to people who decide to swing the nation. >  >i > David Mathog wrote:e > >e9 > > In article <3A0B8581.753F833F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeiv& <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:L > > >From the coverage of the florida elections, I got quick glances at what lookedI > > >like the old punched cards, and there was mention of voters punchingP holes to > > >make their selections.u > [...]:   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:32:23 -0500z2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Time Zone7 Message-ID: <200011111532_MC2-BA84-BE77@compuserve.com>a  # Message text written by Jerome FinehJ >I understand that every so often, there is also a Leap Second required. =   WhilenJ it occurs, on average, less than once a year, which way would be the best=  . to set the clock back by just that ONE second. <   J If you need time correct to less than one second, I somehow doubt that yo= u G should be using a VMS system as a clock.  If you are running NTP or thehG DECnet V equivalent, maybe, but in almost sixteen years of working withaE VMS, I've never encountered a system that didn't gain or lose several 6 seconds a month; most didn't keep time even that well.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:27:01 -0500 , From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Time Zone> Message-ID: <hshubs-685E53.15270111112000@news.mindspring.com>  L In article <3A0D8546.91436AD@idirect.com>, Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>  wrote:  J >I understand that every so often, there is also a Leap Second required.   >WhileJ >it occurs, on average, less than once a year, which way would be the best/ >to set the clock back by just that ONE second.L   NTP. -- h Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:34:22 -0500t& From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com> Subject: Re: Time Zone+ Message-ID: <3A0DC96E.ECC210AE@idirect.com>    >Hoff Hoffman wrote:  j > >In article <39FF8A2F.E44231FD@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:- > >re: How to reset for daylight savings timen > >See HELP SUBMIT /AFTER   > >..and do this in a batch job:( > >In autumn:     $ SET TIME="-01:00:00"J >   That very likely won't have the expected results in all cases, and theL >   SET TIME itself will be rejected if DTSS or other time-keeping mechanismI >   is enabled, and would definitely not be the approach I would suggest.lJ >   Please see the OpenVMS FAQ for directions on the daylight savings timeJ >   switch-over.  (Suggestions for updates to the time-related informationI >   in the FAQ -- or most anything else, for that matter -- are welcome.)w   Jerome Fine replies:  N I understand that every so often, there is also a Leap Second required.  WhileI it occurs, on average, less than once a year, which way would be the bestb. to set the clock back by just that ONE second.  N In addition, what is the current state of the code for keeping track of dates?M I understand that the subroutines are written in 32-bit C and will need to be K modified - or better still - changed to 64-bit C.  What is the cut-off dateaH for this to be done?  And will it be done for VMS on the VAX or just forG VMS on Alpha since the switch to a 64-bit C on Alpha will probably take3 place within a few years?f   Sincerely yours,   Jerome Finec   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:04:46 -0000rE From: "Dane Maslen" <dane.maslen@real-address-withheld-to-avoid-spam> / Subject: Re: [VMS V7.2] BACKUP Behaviour changes+ Message-ID: <2nkP5.692$vf7.8312@news2-hme0>   > >You're a lucky man. But what if you reach the tape boundary ?D >Do you abort BACKUP there to do a DCL INIT then or do you pray that, >the next tape has no previous data on it ??    L I would guess that he uses /IGNORE=LABEL (IIRC) and prays that the operators have loaded the right tapes.   Dane Maslen    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:03:59 -0000:E From: "Dane Maslen" <dane.maslen@real-address-withheld-to-avoid-spam>n/ Subject: Re: [VMS V7.2] BACKUP Behaviour changec, Message-ID: <uPmP5.3017$BR5.9021@news1-hme0>  I >>We init the tape just before the backup (without init) command, and uset /REWINDsG >>or /NOREWIND as appropriate.  So I do not know if anything changed orn when.a >a> >You're a lucky man. But what if you reach the tape boundary ?D >Do you abort BACKUP there to do a DCL INIT then or do you pray that, >the next tape has no previous data on it ??    I Oops!  Ignore my previous reply.  I wasn't thinking straight at the time: 9 '/IGNORE=LABEL' is of course of no use in this situation.o  F The more I think about the change in behaviour, the more I come to the1 conclusion that the V7.2 behaviour is ridiculous.i   Dane Masleno   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 04:06:12 GMTa+ From: John Santos <john.santos@verizon.net>r/ Subject: Re: [VMS V7.2] BACKUP Behaviour changee> Message-ID: <MPG.1477e12dfbb27891989697@news.bellatlantic.net>  A OOPs!  I originally mailed this instead of replying to the group.. Sorry, Peter...   3 In article <3a0b0190@news.kapsch.co.at>, you say...oY > In article <C2256992.00695333.00@jklh21.valmet.com>, norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes: R > >We init the tape just before the backup (without init) command, and use /REWINDN > >or /NOREWIND as appropriate.  So I do not know if anything changed or when. > ? > You're a lucky man. But what if you reach the tape boundary ? E > Do you abort BACKUP there to do a DCL INIT then or do you pray thatm- > the next tape has no previous data on it ??u  D Doesn't backup check to see if the 2nd tape is empty and if so writeA over it, but if not, prompt either at the terminal (/noassist) oraD through OPCOM (/assist, default) for "Overwrite, new tape or abort"?  C If you say overwrite, I think it does the equivalent of initing the 	 2nd tape.e  A Back in the good old days, we used to sysgen RSTS/E with an extrahB tape unit of each variety.  (E.G. with a TU10, we would sysgen forC 2 TU10's, with 2 TE16's, we would sysgen for 3.)  This only cost anoA extra DDB from main memory, about 20 bytes.  Then if we needed toeA steal the drive, for example to init a tape, we could just switcht> the unit number (most of these drives had thumb-wheels or unit@ plugs we could swap), init the next reel, switch the number back# and backup would be none the wiser.I  @ Most VMS tape drives these days don't have externally selectable2 unit numbers, so this trick doesn't work any more.   -- o John Santoso   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.632 ************************