1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 15 Nov 2000	Volume 2000 : Issue 639       Contents:$ "swapping" disks, but not physically( Re: "swapping" disks, but not physically( Re: "swapping" disks, but not physically! $SPI_CPUBUSY ?? ($GETSPI SERVICE) % Re: $SPI_CPUBUSY ?? ($GETSPI SERVICE) 0 Re: ? Tape Device owned by dead process on Alpha& Re: Accessing a OpenVMS server from NT Re: Beep on shutdown Re: Bookreader Re: Bookreader RE: Bookreader RE: Bookreader Re: DE204 under OpenVMS 7.2  decnet-plus device changes Re: decnet-plus device changes RE: decnet-plus device changes Re: disk benchmarking software? 1 Re: Disk write-back cache - how do I turn it off?  Re: FUD to FAD Re: FUD to FAD Re: FUD to FAD Good BYTE article on VMS Re: Good BYTE article on VMS Re: Good BYTE article on VMS Re: Good BYTE article on VMS Re: Good BYTE article on VMS" How can I watch RealPlayer movies?& Re: How can I watch RealPlayer movies?& Re: How can I watch RealPlayer movies?& Re: How can I watch RealPlayer movies? How to Obtain VMS 6.2-1H3  RE: How to Obtain VMS 6.2-1H3  how to sign off?% Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. ) Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter. * Re: No doubts here (Was: Re: Galaxy doubt)* OpenVMS website GALCULTATOR link is broken7 RMS way to get long sequential records in multiple $GET ; Re: RMS way to get long sequential records in multiple $GET ; Re: RMS way to get long sequential records in multiple $GET F Security and Hidden Programs: (was How can I watch RealPlayer movies?). Re: Severity of eBay's ecache problem detailed Re: Technology of US Elections RE: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections RE: Technology of US Elections re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US elections RE: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US Elections RE: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections RE: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US Elections Re: Technology of US elections Re: Technology of US Elections8 re: Re: Technology of US elections x Brazilian elections8 re: Re: Technology of US elections x Brazilian elections8 re: Re: Technology of US elections x Brazilian elections  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:43:31 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)- Subject: "swapping" disks, but not physically . Message-ID: <8uu0dj$psi$2@info.service.rug.nl>  E I just posted this to comp.sys.dec, but am reposting it there and to  F comp.os.vms, since some new stuff is relevant to both groups (perhaps  more to comp.os.vms).   H > The fan in the ALPHAstation 255/233 is two-speed, with a thermostat.  D > Usually, like now, mine is just on low.  However, since yesterday K > afternoon, it has become much louder---there is a metal-on-metal sound.   K > I am not bothered by the noise.  However, is there a chance that the fan  C > can fail?  If so, could I replace it myself?  (6 months ago, the  C > guarantee ran out and at present there is no sort of maintenance  K > contract.)  Does anyone have the part-number for the fan?  I'll probably  , > order one right away, just to be prepared. > H > At least, I HOPE it's the fan!  It might be a disk.  There is an RZ26FG > and an RZ28D inside (original |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| stuff I bought together K > with the machine, though they are actually Seagate Barracuda's).  At the  G > moment, the RZ28D is not in use---it is online, but not mounted.  Is  # > there any way I can spin it down?   H I have only 119 MB free on my system disk, the RZ26F.  The RZ28D used toE be the user disk, but I now have an RZ29B in a BA356 for that, so the B RZ28D is free.  What I would like to do is the following: move theC system disk to the RZ28D and free up the RZ26F (I will then use the A latter for third-party software; at the moment, this is on a 1-GB G partition of a 4-GB disk served up by an InfoServer 1000, but I want to F move it to a real disk so that I can give more than one machine in the cluster write access to it).  G I know how to do all of this.  My question is: since the system disk is F now at SCSI ID 0, and after the swap it will be at 1, is this anythingB to be concerned about?  I understand that higher IDs have a higherC priority.  There is little write activity on the system disk (to be I fair, even less on the DISK$SOFT I want to use this small disk as in the  H future).  I suppose there is a reason why the system disk is usually at E 0 (and presumably why it used to be at 3 on older machines) etc.  To  E change the IDs, I would at least have to open the box, which I don't   want to do, at least not now.   H Perhaps related:  There is only one SCSI bus in the machine.  Now, all 7F slots are full (but not all are simultaneously used).  I'm thinking ofD moving some to other nodes in the cluster.  Am I correct in assumingE that even though a VAX is slower in terms of CPU speed, as far as I/O D goes even connecting some devices to an old VAX (not too old or slowF though---a VAXstation 4000/90 or 4000/60) in the same cluster might be) better than having them all on the ALPHA?      --M Phillip Helbig                       Email .............. helbig@astro.rug.nl M Kapteyn Instituut                    Email ................. helbig@man.ac.uk M Rijksuniversiteit Groningen          Tel. ................... +31 50 363 6647 M Postbus 800                          Fax .................... +31 50 363 6100 M NL-9700 AV Groningen                 Web ... http://www.astro.rug.nl/~helbig/   5 My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer.    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 15:33:37 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 1 Subject: Re: "swapping" disks, but not physically H Message-ID: <y4itpps3su.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  L I don't think that SCSI priority should matter in your situation, unless youK give the system disk higher priority than your CD writer or a tape that you  want to keep streaming.   K Whether a locally attached but full SCSI chain is faster or slower than one F read via MSCP depends on the details, I suppose. The difference in I/OD performance between a VAX and an Alpha should be much lower than the9 difference in CPU performance for comparable I/O systems.    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:04:21 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)1 Subject: Re: "swapping" disks, but not physically - Message-ID: <8uuc65$5p$2@info.service.rug.nl>   H In article <y4itpps3su.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,A Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  writes:   N > I don't think that SCSI priority should matter in your situation, unless youM > give the system disk higher priority than your CD writer or a tape that you  > want to keep streaming.  > M > Whether a locally attached but full SCSI chain is faster or slower than one H > read via MSCP depends on the details, I suppose. The difference in I/OF > performance between a VAX and an Alpha should be much lower than the; > difference in CPU performance for comparable I/O systems.   E I did a comparison work between local SCSI disks and disks (actually  F virtual disks, partitions of a larger disk) served from an InfoServer > via ESS$LADCP.  It depended on the situation which was faster.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:26:42 GMT   From: ROBERT.MURPHY@RB.CWPLC.COM* Subject: $SPI_CPUBUSY ?? ($GETSPI SERVICE)( Message-ID: <8utvdu$8b$1@nnrp1.deja.com>  B Just curious, I've been writing a piece of pascal code to work outE average CPU busy scores, using $GETSPI, by taking the ticks and doing E the maths. However, I have noticed an item code $SPI_CPUBUSY, which I D assumed was (a) a longword and (b) would give me what I wanted, nice	 and easy.   F However - it always returns zero ... can anyone shed any light on what this item code actually does ??    Cheers, Rob.  
 Rob Murphy Systems Manager  Cable & Wireless, London robert.murphy@rb.cwplc.com    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:14:03 +0100 5 From: "philippe bocher" <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr> . Subject: Re: $SPI_CPUBUSY ?? ($GETSPI SERVICE)$ Message-ID: <3a1298fe@news.euriware>  ;     In starlet.pas SPI$_CPUBUSY ==> retired item -returns 0        Hope this help       Philippe Bocher      philippe.bocher@euriware.fr   : <ROBERT.MURPHY@RB.CWPLC.COM> a crit dans le message news: 8utvdu$8b$1@nnrp1.deja.com... D > Just curious, I've been writing a piece of pascal code to work outG > average CPU busy scores, using $GETSPI, by taking the ticks and doing G > the maths. However, I have noticed an item code $SPI_CPUBUSY, which I F > assumed was (a) a longword and (b) would give me what I wanted, nice > and easy.  > H > However - it always returns zero ... can anyone shed any light on what! > this item code actually does ??  >  > Cheers, Rob. >  > Rob Murphy > Systems Manager  > Cable & Wireless, London > robert.murphy@rb.cwplc.com >  > ( > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 18:27:14 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)9 Subject: Re: ? Tape Device owned by dead process on Alpha 6 Message-ID: <8uuki2$d5p$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  X In article <3A0CEEC4.5083F990@bellsouth.net>, Robert Boyd <rlboyd@bellsouth.net> writes:L :We have a system running VMS V7.1 that occasionally winds up with the tape - :drive allocated to a non-existant process.        Interesting.    D   I've heard of very few cases of this ownership problem arising on    OpenVMS Alpha systems.  9   I'd encourage moving up to V7.1-2 with associated ECOs.   "   Can you reproduce the problem?    A   What tools or mechanisms or commands are in use with this tape?   <   What specific sort of tape device and system is involved?   !   Is the device firmware current?   <   Anything interesting and relevent in the system error log?  D   Is anyone using SHARE privilege in conjunction with this device?      N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:56:16 +0100 , From: Razzak <razzaka@pears.fkr.cpqcorp.net>/ Subject: Re: Accessing a OpenVMS server from NT 5 Message-ID: <3A12B220.26007D57@pears.fkr.cpqcorp.net>   - First , please post output from two commands    , $ mc pwrk$banner    ! Pathworks version etc. then  . $ net accounts      ! domain-name ,server role   -- Abdul Razzak
 Munich ,GY   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:51:39 +0000  From: Laurie Finn <abc@def.com>  Subject: Re: Beep on shutdown ' Message-ID: <3A1294EB.ECDE083C@def.com>    Yes    "Craig A. Berry" wrote:  > E > Have you removed the /BELL qualifier from all the REPLY commands in  > SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN.COM? > ) > In article <3A102AFD.9C210C5C@def.com>,  >>I've searched  > all D > > the .com files called from shutdown.com and remmed out any lines	 > which I G > > know to produce a beep, but it's still doing it. There must be some C > > commands which beep as a side effect. Has anyone got any ideas?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:06:36 -0800 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: Bookreader 1 Message-ID: <024c01c04f04$e2b17cc0$f6c7cccf@reka>   @ Tried installing this from the download site.  It appears to me,< notwithstanding the following text that a CD-ROM is required  H If you already have the Compaq ODL-PC installed on your system, you mustJ download/install twice: the first time will uninstall your current version1 and the second time will install the new version.     @ Download/install odl_axp_beta_v12.exe, Windows - Intel (1807 KB)K It is recommended that you have the AXPDOCSEP00_1 CD for MS Windows in your B CD reader when you download and run the installation. Click on theL "Download/install odl_axp_beta_v11.exe" link. On the "File Download" dialog,H select "Run this program from its current location" and click "OK". NextK answer "Yes" to the "Security Warning" dialog. Take all the default answers G by hitting enter to uninstall your existing version of the ODL-PC. Then K click on the "Download/install odl_axp_beta_v11.exe" link a second time. On E the "File Download" dialog, select "Run this program from its current E location" and click "OK". Next answer "Yes" to the "Security Warning" I dialog. If you have the CD in the reader, you can take all of the default F responses for the installation from there. If you do not, you can takeJ defaults with the exception of having to respond "No" to the "drive and/orF folder not found" dialog that asks "Do you wish to reenter?" After theJ installation is complete, invoke "BNU" from the "Compaq ODL" menu from the! "Start->Programs" menu as before.   K I am trying to install this on Win2000 Adv Server.  Has anyone successfully 
 done this.   Tom    ----- Original Message -----) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>  To: <Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com> ( Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Bookreader      > See: > 1 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/odl_axp_beta.html  >  > -John  > wb8tyw@qsl.network >  > VMS Rules! >  >  > ) > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> wrote 8 > in message news:01cb01c04ea5$a56c4340$f6c7cccf@reka... > 4 > > Is there a site from where it may be downloaded? > > 6 > > From: "Howard S Shubs" <hshubs@mindspring.company> > > > > > > In article <3A11A944.2EB4F187@clarion.edu>, Clayton Kroh+ > > > <ckroh@MAIL.CLARION.EDUcation> wrote:  > > > 9 > > > >Is there a way to read "book reader" files such as  > > > >cobref.bkb from Windows?  > > > < > > > The September 2000 VMS distribution contains a pair of4 > > > beta CD-ROMs of the doc set for use on Windows >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:53:22 -0500 - From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>  Subject: Re: Bookreader / Message-ID: <t15cbf9qsjvvb1@corp.supernews.com>   . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message+ news:024c01c04f04$e2b17cc0$f6c7cccf@reka... B > Tried installing this from the download site.  It appears to me,> > notwithstanding the following text that a CD-ROM is required  D FWIU, you need to be subscribed to the AXP ODL. If you subscribed to@ the VAX ODL then you did not get the PC-readable CD-ROM. I askedA before in this newsgroup if anyone knew what the differences were A between the AXP ODL and the VAX ODL, either nobody knew or nobody ? bother to answer (or my newsfeed lost the post which apparently  happens very often).  C Does anyone know what the difference is between the AXP ODL and the B VAX ODL? If the answer is "Yes" then please expand on your answer.  C Does anyone know if the PC readable CD will be included in the next  VAX ODL distribution?       
 ----------B "How many Americans do we have in the audience tonight?... oh, I'm( sorry, I forgot you people can't count." Mike Bullard 9-NOV-2000    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:42:42 +0000 - From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk>  Subject: RE: Bookreader Q Message-ID: <2161381B2B8BD4118EFD006097D7C7A7238F2B@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>   K Worked just fine for me (on Win2k Pro) but I was not installing over an old  version of PC BNU.   -----Original Message-----( From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@KEDNOS.COM] Sent: 15 November 2000 13:07 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: Re: Bookreader     @ Tried installing this from the download site.  It appears to me,< notwithstanding the following text that a CD-ROM is required  H If you already have the Compaq ODL-PC installed on your system, you mustJ download/install twice: the first time will uninstall your current version1 and the second time will install the new version.a    @ Download/install odl_axp_beta_v12.exe, Windows - Intel (1807 KB)K It is recommended that you have the AXPDOCSEP00_1 CD for MS Windows in yournB CD reader when you download and run the installation. Click on theL "Download/install odl_axp_beta_v11.exe" link. On the "File Download" dialog,H select "Run this program from its current location" and click "OK". NextK answer "Yes" to the "Security Warning" dialog. Take all the default answersoG by hitting enter to uninstall your existing version of the ODL-PC. ThenlK click on the "Download/install odl_axp_beta_v11.exe" link a second time. OnmE the "File Download" dialog, select "Run this program from its currentlE location" and click "OK". Next answer "Yes" to the "Security Warning"HI dialog. If you have the CD in the reader, you can take all of the defaultoF responses for the installation from there. If you do not, you can takeJ defaults with the exception of having to respond "No" to the "drive and/orF folder not found" dialog that asks "Do you wish to reenter?" After theJ installation is complete, invoke "BNU" from the "Compaq ODL" menu from the! "Start->Programs" menu as before.o  K I am trying to install this on Win2000 Adv Server.  Has anyone successfullyl
 done this.   Tome   ----- Original Message -----) From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.net>M To: <Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com>r( Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Bookreadern     > See: >a1 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/odl_axp_beta.html  >a > -John  > wb8tyw@qsl.network >s > VMS Rules! >o >S >e) > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> wrote 8 > in message news:01cb01c04ea5$a56c4340$f6c7cccf@reka... >e4 > > Is there a site from where it may be downloaded? > >s6 > > From: "Howard S Shubs" <hshubs@mindspring.company> > >o> > > > In article <3A11A944.2EB4F187@clarion.edu>, Clayton Kroh+ > > > <ckroh@MAIL.CLARION.EDUcation> wrote:o > > > 9 > > > >Is there a way to read "book reader" files such asy > > > >cobref.bkb from Windows?o > > >e< > > > The September 2000 VMS distribution contains a pair of4 > > > beta CD-ROMs of the doc set for use on Windows >o >S >e      A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be eF legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the& CSF help desk on (+44)(0)207 490 2727.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:42:47 +0000G- From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk>  Subject: RE: Bookreader,Q Message-ID: <2161381B2B8BD4118EFD006097D7C7A7238F2C@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>e  F There seems to be a separate PC format CD as well as a bookreader (VMSJ format) one.  I guess the PC one will not work on VMS and vice versa.  TheA labels are AXPDOCSEP001 & 2 for VMs and AXPDOCSEP00_1 & 2 for PC.t  L I guess someone from Compaq might be able to tell you if they'll send it out in the Vax CDDS.   -----Original Message-----2 From: Peter Weaver [mailto:peter.weaver@STELCO.CA] Sent: 15 November 2000 15:53 To: Info-VAX@MVB.SAIC.COM  Subject: Re: Bookreaderl    . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message+ news:024c01c04f04$e2b17cc0$f6c7cccf@reka... B > Tried installing this from the download site.  It appears to me,> > notwithstanding the following text that a CD-ROM is required  D FWIU, you need to be subscribed to the AXP ODL. If you subscribed to@ the VAX ODL then you did not get the PC-readable CD-ROM. I askedA before in this newsgroup if anyone knew what the differences wereyA between the AXP ODL and the VAX ODL, either nobody knew or nobody-? bother to answer (or my newsfeed lost the post which apparentlyn happens very often).  C Does anyone know what the difference is between the AXP ODL and theeB VAX ODL? If the answer is "Yes" then please expand on your answer.  C Does anyone know if the PC readable CD will be included in the nextm VAX ODL distribution?f      
 ----------B "How many Americans do we have in the audience tonight?... oh, I'm( sorry, I forgot you people can't count." Mike Bullard 9-NOV-2000S    A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be oF legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the& CSF help desk on (+44)(0)207 490 2727.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:14:55 +0000 (UTC) ' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi>r$ Subject: Re: DE204 under OpenVMS 7.2, Message-ID: <8utr7f$7ud$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  . Howard E. Arnold <arnoldh@celerent.com> wrote:G > Are the DE204 network cards supported under OpenVMS 7.2?  We have onenM > installed in a Alphastation 400 4/233 and when we try to configure TCPIP ita > fails with no such interface.   C I've used SRM-command >>> add_de205 for DE203 and DE205 (AXPpci33).iI If there's that command in Alphastation 400 SRM that might work for you. i   /OK    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:39:01 -0500A4 From: "Bochnik, William J" <BochnikWJ@bernstein.com># Subject: decnet-plus device changes J Message-ID: <2B37459189B0D211BE710000F8EF9D8508908866@nts0147.beehive.com>  J This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand< this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C04F11.CE25ABAC. Content-Type: text/plain;3 	charset="iso-8859-1"   H We have an alpha running VMS 7.1-2 with DECNET-PLUS (NCL reports versionL 5.0.3).  It currently is on FDDI (CDDI actually) and we plan on moving it to( 100 Base T.  Which is a better approach:  J 1 - shutdown, add the new card, boot, go into net$configure and try to add the new deviceJ 2 - shutdown, pull old card, add new card, boot, go into net$configure and reconfigure from the beginning  F I am familiar enough with the TCP/IP configuration to make any changesH there, but the DECNET-PLUS one I'm a little short on (I haven't done too! much with DECNET since phase IV).r  8 Any tips, comments, gotchas, or even some steps to take?   Thanks.  William J. Bochnik   Systems Programmer Operations, CMIS WPO-17-187, Ext. 2467e Nextel 1130 - 917 416 7103        ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C04F11.CE25ABACa Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1"e+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">- <HTML> <HEAD>9 <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =P charset=3Diso-8859-1">@ <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
 5.5.2651.65">.) <TITLE>decnet-plus device changes</TITLE>h </HEAD>i <BODY>  E <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We have an alpha running VMS 7.1-2 =rH with DECNET-PLUS (NCL reports version 5.0.3).&nbsp; It currently is on =D FDDI (CDDI actually) and we plan on moving it to 100 Base T.&nbsp; =& Which is a better approach:</FONT></P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">1 - shutdown, add the new card, boot, =: go into net$configure and try to add the new device</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">2 - shutdown, pull old card, add new =< card, boot, go into net$configure and reconfigure from the = beginning</FONT> </P>  G <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I am familiar enough with the TCP/IP =dH configuration to make any changes there, but the DECNET-PLUS one I'm a =B little short on (I haven't done too much with DECNET since phase = IV).</FONT></P>e  G <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Any tips, comments, gotchas, or even =  some steps to take?</FONT> </P>  / <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks.</FONT>gB <BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">William J. Bochnik</FONT></B> </P>  A <P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Systems Programmer</FONT></B>I@ <BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Operations, CMIS</FONT></B>E <BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">WPO-17-187, Ext. 2467</FONT></B>(< <BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nextel 1130 - 917 416 = 7103</FONT></B>  </P> <BR> <BR>   </BODY>l </HTML>h) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C04F11.CE25ABAC--e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:30:21 +0100m5 From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@whitehouse.nl>j' Subject: Re: decnet-plus device changes-- Message-ID: <3A12BA1D.8BC05BC2@whitehouse.nl>4   > "Bochnik, William J" wrote:r > B > We have an alpha running VMS 7.1-2 with DECNET-PLUS (NCL reportsF > version 5.0.3).  It currently is on FDDI (CDDI actually) and we plan: > on moving it to 100 Base T.  Which is a better approach: > H > 1 - shutdown, add the new card, boot, go into net$configure and try to > add the new deviceH > 2 - shutdown, pull old card, add new card, boot, go into net$configure$ > and reconfigure from the beginning  E I don't think the one is better then the other. With option 2 however G you should first remove/rename the fddi ncl startup script. I have seenYG systems hanging when trying to create a datalink for a device which wast# physically removed from the system.    Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:46:37 +0000 - From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk>m' Subject: RE: decnet-plus device changes Q Message-ID: <2161381B2B8BD4118EFD006097D7C7A7238F2D@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>o  L If you can, I would go with option (1).  If for some reason it doesn't work,I you should be able to fall back to your old config without having to opene the box again. d   -----Original Message-----< From: Oswald Knoppers [mailto:Oswald.Knoppers@whitehouse.nl] Sent: 15 November 2000 16:30 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como' Subject: Re: decnet-plus device changesn     > "Bochnik, William J" wrote:u > B > We have an alpha running VMS 7.1-2 with DECNET-PLUS (NCL reportsF > version 5.0.3).  It currently is on FDDI (CDDI actually) and we plan: > on moving it to 100 Base T.  Which is a better approach: > H > 1 - shutdown, add the new card, boot, go into net$configure and try to > add the new deviceH > 2 - shutdown, pull old card, add new card, boot, go into net$configure$ > and reconfigure from the beginning  E I don't think the one is better then the other. With option 2 howevervG you should first remove/rename the fddi ncl startup script. I have seenuG systems hanging when trying to create a datalink for a device which wasl# physically removed from the system.    Regards,   Oswald  A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be -F legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the& CSF help desk on (+44)(0)207 490 2727.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:20:51 GMT  From: kparris@my-deja.com-( Subject: Re: disk benchmarking software?) Message-ID: <8uu63s$5gu$1@nnrp1.deja.com>c  E I've had good success using the TEST command of the DISKBLOCK utility H from the V4 VMS Freeware CD.  Allows you to specify I/O size, read/writeH ratio, queue depth, etc. and gives back good statistics on request rate, data rate, amd response time. G -----------------------------------------------------------------------nG Keith Parris|Integrity Computing,Inc.|parris@decuserve.decus.org-nospamsF VMS Consulting: Clusters, Perf., Alpha porting, Storage&I/O, Internals    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:31:10 -0000s1 From: "Michael Shield" <Michael.Shield@tesco.net>0: Subject: Re: Disk write-back cache - how do I turn it off?, Message-ID: <8uudgp$9au$1@barcode.tesco.net>   Hello again foks  1 Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in messagey0 news:200011140803.JAA24901@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... > Hello, >nE > I find it very abnormal, that the disk write-back cache is enabled. E > Normaly OpenVMS disables it. If you will have a RAIDsystem, OpenVMSlF > will not see the single disk and let the disk write-back cache as itC > is. You will have a chance to turn it off, if you could address anH > single disk. If your able to do so, then you can use the freeware toolF > RZDISK with the option -c to change the disk write-back cache state.B > Otherwise you have to connect every disk to a Windows system andD > set the disk write-back cache to off with the EZtool from Adaptec. >h > Regards Rudolf Wingert >r >i   Rudolf,o  G Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens all the time), but I think you have"L fallen victim to the VMS documentation, as noted in my earlier post. You areG reading Norman's comment about mounting drives /Nocache, and making theeL assumption that the default mount option somehow mounts a drive with the WBC, enabled, be it a raid set or a single drive.  H This is the same assumption made by Oracle support, (not the RDB part ofK Oracle), and no matter how many times its explained, they find it difficult"L to grasp that the stated mount option reffers to a rather different concept.  I You are correct, VMS disables any WBC on the the physical disk (I thoughttK someone would have written a tool to undo this) and by default, no raid settG is created with it turned on at the controller level. The only place tob! worry about is on your HSD/G/J/Z.a  K Perhaps some kind soul in Engineering would like to patch the mount command H so that it presented a more appropriate description on what its actuallyE doing, rather than letting this small but confusing  matter continue."   Mike Shieldm  2 At home, still on holiday, not speaking for Compaq   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 09:57:51 +0100* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: FUD to FAD ( Message-ID: <3a12500f@news.kapsch.co.at>  w In article <3.0.5.32.20001114160013.009efe40@discovery.fuentez.com>, Jim Jennis <jjennis@discovery.fuentez.com> writes: G >It appears the FUD seen here recently is changing to FAD (Frustration,mJ >Anger, and Disillusionment) in the real world as Mr McNealy & Co. bask in> >another round of "Fun in the Sun" enterprise level publicity. >-4 >http://www.internetweek.com/columns00/rob111300.htm  D IMHO this is comp.os.vms I feel, that we have no need to PERMANENTLY9 bash other products or companies (except M$ of course ;-)o: Lets talk about VMS or Q improvements or problems instead.  ! >as well as the previous story att > 3 >http://www.internetweek.com/story/INW20001109S0002s  G I see IBM and HP mentioned as competitors to Sun, but no COMPAQ at all.e2 Seems, the DEC marketing problem is still there...   -- D< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 < <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:38:31 GMT % From: "P.Lj" <plj@byron.ext.telia.se>r Subject: Re: FUD to FADa2 Message-ID: <3A127639.8E6F4978@byron.ext.telia.se>  f Yeah, I agree, let Andrew sing his song of the sun if he like, but let him sing alone in the moonlight  Q We all know that nobody's perfect, not even VMS (ugh! did I say that!)..  silence   	 >>> ^P.Lj9     Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  y > In article <3.0.5.32.20001114160013.009efe40@discovery.fuentez.com>, Jim Jennis <jjennis@discovery.fuentez.com> writes:aI > >It appears the FUD seen here recently is changing to FAD (Frustration,nL > >Anger, and Disillusionment) in the real world as Mr McNealy & Co. bask in@ > >another round of "Fun in the Sun" enterprise level publicity. > > 6 > >http://www.internetweek.com/columns00/rob111300.htm >1F > IMHO this is comp.os.vms I feel, that we have no need to PERMANENTLY; > bash other products or companies (except M$ of course ;-)w< > Lets talk about VMS or Q improvements or problems instead. >u# > >as well as the previous story atl > >n5 > >http://www.internetweek.com/story/INW20001109S0002s >iI > I see IBM and HP mentioned as competitors to Sun, but no COMPAQ at all.e4 > Seems, the DEC marketing problem is still there... >, > --> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888 > > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 08:13:33 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: FUD to FADe+ Message-ID: <9BlBhXYILzz7@eisner.decus.org>e  w In article <3.0.5.32.20001114160013.009efe40@discovery.fuentez.com>, Jim Jennis <jjennis@discovery.fuentez.com> writes:e  4 > http://www.internetweek.com/story/INW20001109S0002 >   G This one is almost a rewrite of the first, but drags out the old cosmich ray excuse.  Still bull.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupaE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:19:35 -0600e1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>v! Subject: Good BYTE article on VMS 8 Message-ID: <8uu9bi$ea5$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  + http://www.byte.com/column/BYT20001109S0008-     Dave...C   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:23:15 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)m% Subject: Re: Good BYTE article on VMS 0 Message-ID: <009F327E.E8D15EB2@SendSpamHere.ORG>  l In article <8uu9bi$ea5$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:, >http://www.byte.com/column/BYT20001109S0008 >r >  >Dave... >s >n    F I used to get Byte and then it fizzled away.  Is it only an electronicF publication these days?  Or can I get this issue in a hardcopy (short,* of course, of printing out the web pages)? --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMr            iO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:53:39 GMTe1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>p% Subject: Re: Good BYTE article on VMS 2 Message-ID: <3A12C0FC.E605D0B5@clarityconnect.com>  + Here is an excerpt from the publishers pagerH http://www.byte.com/columns/schindler/1999/030199.html and it looks like3 a web only revival of what used to be BYTE magazine2  D 'Hi! I'm Paul Schindler, the new executive editor of Byte.com. It isF with great pleasure that I welcome you back. Yes, there have been someB changes. Byte.com is now part of CMP Media. And its publication noG longer involves pressing ink into dead tree carcasses. I hope you likedsB the magazine for its content. That, not the paper, is what's beingD revived in Web form -- Byte content. We are committed to maintaining Byte's focus and quality.'  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > n > In article <8uu9bi$ea5$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:. > >http://www.byte.com/column/BYT20001109S0008 > >: > >o
 > >Dave... > >I > >  > H > I used to get Byte and then it fizzled away.  Is it only an electronicH > publication these days?  Or can I get this issue in a hardcopy (short,, > of course, of printing out the web pages)? > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.b   -- OD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:47:15 GMTh From: mukh_sue@my-deja.com% Subject: Re: Good BYTE article on VMSa) Message-ID: <8uuemh$den$1@nnrp1.deja.com>h  8 In article <8uu9bi$ea5$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>,4   "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote:- > http://www.byte.com/column/BYT20001109S0008r >I	 > Dave...  >p0 > Thank you.  The article is really informative.   Suei    & Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:23:21 -0500i- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>r% Subject: Re: Good BYTE article on VMSe/ Message-ID: <t15hk79m3nltea@corp.supernews.com>m  < "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message2 news:8uu9bi$ea5$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com...- > http://www.byte.com/column/BYT20001109S0008   D Wow, I thought Byte was dead and gone. Looks like I have a few yearsD worth of Jerry Pournelle to catch up on. The new kid besides me saidD "byte what?", "Purnelle who?" - well, at least he's at a point where he can spell VMS now. (hi CB)   
 ----------B "How many Americans do we have in the audience tonight?... oh, Im( sorry, I forgot you people cant count. Mike Bullard 9-NOV-2000    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:09:55 +0000 (UTC)t' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi>m+ Subject: How can I watch RealPlayer movies?-, Message-ID: <8utuej$bh8$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>   Hello group!  . Do I have say to no thanx to RealPlayer stuff?9 I have AStation500 with 4D20 graphics as my PC (VMS 7.1),94 and it's wery good as personal computer except that:J Netscape is old buggy version AND PDF-viewer is not very good free version8 AND had not yet time to find viewer for word (yuck!) AND no RealPlayer AND...  :-(_  9 I think it is about the time to get FX!32 run in OpenVMS?"J Or is there hope that Linux programs can soon be run in OpenVMS (DII COE)?> But I guess RealPlayer has not yet been ported to Linux/Alpha.   regardso          Osmo Kujala  ; P.S. Wintel-computer is not an option. I refuse to take it.    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:42:37 GMTF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)/ Subject: Re: How can I watch RealPlayer movies? * Message-ID: <8uu0bt$7h4@usenet.pa.dec.com>  V In article <8utuej$bh8$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>, Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi> writes: >w/ >Do I have say to no thanx to RealPlayer stuff?s >o   I would, but for other reasons.   ; I sympathize with your comments that VMS is somewhat behinds; some other industry platforms for some applications.  There 7 are people working on updating it's capabilities in they# general Internet application arena.e  9 However, I personally avoid RealPlayer unless I have someT: overwhelming need to see something that isn't in any other format.U  @ Perhaps you are not aware of this, but if you run the RealPlayer< application to view or listen to something, the player tries? to contact the RealPlayer company via the Internet to tell them ; what movie you're watching, who you are, etc.  I personallya: consider that a totally unacceptable security risk, and an9 invasion of privacy.  I also don't like the fact that thea8 real player file formats are apparently proprietary (and0 secret), and that there is no choice of players.  4 When I do have to look at such a file, I do it on my6 Macintosh, and I do it when I do not have any Internet5 connectivity active so that nothing can get out of myn system.d  ) --                vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv f4  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  <---------(                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have ae5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:33:44 GMTD4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)/ Subject: Re: How can I watch RealPlayer movies?/& Message-ID: <YgwQ5.49$XY5.1275@insync>  G Bart Z. Lederman (lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com) wrote:a :n; : However, I personally avoid RealPlayer unless I have some1< : overwhelming need to see something that isn't in any other	 : format.  : B : Perhaps you are not aware of this, but if you run the RealPlayer> : application to view or listen to something, the player triesA : to contact the RealPlayer company via the Internet to tell thems= : what movie you're watching, who you are, etc.  I personallyc< : consider that a totally unacceptable security risk, and an; : invasion of privacy.  I also don't like the fact that then: : real player file formats are apparently proprietary (and2 : secret), and that there is no choice of players. : 6 : When I do have to look at such a file, I do it on my8 : Macintosh, and I do it when I do not have any Internet7 : connectivity active so that nothing can get out of my 	 : system.o :   : For more information on RealPlayer and other spyware, see:      http://grc.com/downloaders.htm   File Downloader Spying    / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.netu;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalide2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:31:57 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)/ Subject: Re: How can I watch RealPlayer movies?a, Message-ID: <8uudpt$elf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  s In article <8uu0bt$7h4@usenet.pa.dec.com>, lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) writes:  >f >u5 >When I do have to look at such a file, I do it on myt7 >Macintosh, and I do it when I do not have any Internetl6 >connectivity active so that nothing can get out of my >system. >e  E How do you know that they don't store it in a log file somewhere, and I automatically send it the next time you're on the network (whether or noteI you start Realplayer in that session?)  Bet there's a realplayer icon on nK the screen when the Mac boots - do you know everything that it does at that 	 point??? s   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 14:49:31 GMT! From: briannfo@aol.com (BrianNFO)a" Subject: How to Obtain VMS 6.2-1H3: Message-ID: <20001115094931.03886.00000493@ng-ch1.aol.com>  J I'm converting an Alpha 4100 from NT to VMS, and it dawned on me from pastL experience that the minimum version of VMS I need to be running is the aboveM mentioned version.  (and I want to stay around 6.2 because of other VMS nodesy and their versions.)  I Last time I did this, I borrowed a CD from a vendor, but so far am having O trouble getting it this time.  Is there an easy way through Compaq to get this?m   (and preferably for no charge.)   Thanks in advance.   Brian    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:03:14 +0000s- From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk>a& Subject: RE: How to Obtain VMS 6.2-1H3Q Message-ID: <2161381B2B8BD4118EFD006097D7C7A7238F2E@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>   H Ask your reseller to check for part no. QA-MT1AG-H8.  I believe it is s= till0 orderable and it costs only a few =A3 in the UK.   -----Original Message-----0 From: briannfo@aol.com [mailto:briannfo@aol.com] Sent: 15 November 2000 14:50 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma" Subject: How to Obtain VMS 6.2-1H3    H I'm converting an Alpha 4100 from NT to VMS, and it dawned on me from p= ast-H experience that the minimum version of VMS I need to be running is the = aboveCH mentioned version.  (and I want to stay around 6.2 because of other VMS=   nodesA and their versions.)  H Last time I did this, I borrowed a CD from a vendor, but so far am havi= ngH trouble getting it this time.  Is there an easy way through Compaq to g= et this?a   (and preferably for no charge.)   Thanks in advance.   Briana    A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be cF legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the& CSF help desk on (+44)(0)207 490 2727.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:07:24 -0800f( From: Diane Burns-Giles <burns@salk.edu> Subject: how to sign off?n3 Message-ID: <v04220800b638812e3e59@[198.202.69.21]>i  7 I already tried several ways and I'm still on the list.s   thanks for your help,r dianet            ;,//;,    ,;/       o:::::::;;///c      >::::::::;;\\\h        ''\\\\\'" ';\    +   Diane Burns-Giles     o    burns@salk.eduo6   The Salk Institute    o    tel: (619) 453-4100 x12460   Computer Services     o    fax: (619) 453-5218   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:01:21 -0500a& From: "Mike Duffy" <mdduffy@erols.com>. Subject: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.+ Message-ID: <8uu8do$n56$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,   Hi All,i  > I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network.  6 Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?8 Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring external power.  ; I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, sincep9 that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to popi for a hub).h  @ Please don't hesitate to tell me about your least favorite, too!   -Mikei   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:59:31 -0500e# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>Z2 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.+ Message-ID: <3A12B2E3.F4BABCD6@hsc.vcu.edu>e  # Black Box is good, www.blackbox.comn  = Cabletron, we have an aui to 10baseT that's worked for years.f   j    Mike Duffy wrote:  > 	 > Hi All,  > @ > I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network. > 8 > Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?: > Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring external > power. > = > I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, since1; > that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to pope
 > for a hub).  > B > Please don't hesitate to tell me about your least favorite, too! >  > -MikeA   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 11:00:45 -05002 From: malmberg@eisner.decus.org (John E. Malmberg)2 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.+ Message-ID: <zWhanS1x$RzQ@eisner.decus.org>v  + In article <8uu8do$n56$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, , "Mike Duffy" <mdduffy@erols.company> writes:	 > Hi All,o > @ > I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network. > 8 > Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?: > Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring external > power. > = > I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, since ; > that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to pope
 > for a hub).1  	 Option 1:r  > Cheap 486 box running LINUX with two ISA or PCI network cards,) one with twisted pair, one with ThinWire.s  4 PC cost close to free, Network cards about $15/each.  * Some assembly required.  Not two portable.    	 Option 2:   H Purchase a twisted pair hub with a ThinWire uplink for about $50 to $60.    	 Option 3:F  K Purchase a PCMCIA network card with a ThinWire dongle for about $50 to $79.,    	 Option 4:g  B Purchase a single twisted pair to ThinWire adapter for about $115.    < It seems to be getting harder to find ThinWire stuff anymore< off the shelf, and it is also starting to disappear from the mail order catalogs.  	 Option 5:1  > Scrounge and get lucky if you find someone throwing away their" twisted pair to ThinWire adapters.    @ I have no idea why a ThinWire to twisted pair adapter is so much< more expensive than a cheap three way ISA ethernet card that: obviously contains the same circuitry.  Supply and demand.  = My current home network is all ThinWire.  At my next house itsC will be mostly twisted pair with possibly a small ThinWire segment. - Just too much stuff is twisted pair only now.r  D It seems that while ThinWire to Twisted Pair Adapters are high cost,> twisted pair to AUI connectors are not, so connecting my Q-bus machines should not be two bad.t   -Johns wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:23:35 GMT / From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>t2 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.) Message-ID: <3A126427.7BFD8EF4@uiowa.edu>r   John E. Malmberg wrote:r > - > In article <8uu8do$n56$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,e. > "Mike Duffy" <mdduffy@erols.company> writes: > > Hi All,R > > B > > I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network. > >-: > > Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?< > > Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring external
 > > power. > >z? > > I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, sincee= > > that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to popz > > for a hub).    > Option 4:t > D > Purchase a single twisted pair to ThinWire adapter for about $115.  6 	When I had to convert old VAXen to a UTP-only networkH on a budget, the best I could find was a media converter from Transition/ Networks (E-CX-TBT-04) that ran about $100-120.p  H NOTE:  Every one I ever found always needed external AC power.  There isH no power on 10BaseT or 10Base2 (AUI does though, that is why you can useC "wall wart free" converters for them, plus they can be cheaper that0 way).9  F 3Com used to make a PCMCIA network card that had a big dongle that hadH both 10BaseT *AND* 10Base2 (UTP & BNC) interface connectors so you couldF use either.  Obviously, it was 10 Mb only.  It is EtherlinkIII, 3C589CE with the 3C-PC-COMBO-CBL dongle.  If you can find them, I'm sure they  would be cheap now!  H   Regards, Rick -- bH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:01:45 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) 2 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.0 Message-ID: <8uuc19$hfm$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  T In article <8uu8do$n56$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Mike Duffy" <mdduffy@erols.com> writes:? >I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network.c >e7 >Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?-9 >Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring externalc >power.  > < >I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, since: >that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to pop >for a hub).  : If the notebook has a PC card slot use one of these cards.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanns  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:03:10 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)82 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.0 Message-ID: <8uuc3u$hfm$2@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  Q In article <3A12B2E3.F4BABCD6@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> writes:,$ >Black Box is good, www.blackbox.com >g> >Cabletron, we have an aui to 10baseT that's worked for years.  ; But all this equipment requires a power supply, doesn't it?e   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:20:37 +0000@  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com2 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.H Message-ID: <OFFC6A80A1.64A6A74B-ON80256998.00642EA4@qedi.quintiles.com>   Mike,t  K I had to do something like this about 18 months ago and the only solution I G could find was a small Media Converter which requires an external powerc% supply.  IIRC it was a D-Link device.o  J The Media Converter itself is only the size of a CentreCOM tranceiver withH a plug in transformer (that is, the transformer is contained in a fairly> meaty plug) and a low voltage power lead to the device itself.  F Putting two tranceivers back-to-back isn't practical as they require a repeater in the middle.l   Steve.  , Mike Duffy <mdduffy at erols dot com> asked:  A >>>I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network.e  6 Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?8 Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring external power.  ; I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, since-9 that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to popU for a hub).s  C Please don't hesitate to tell me about your least favorite, too!<<<o          : "Mike Duffy" <mdduffy@erols.com> on 11/15/2000 03:01:21 PM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComR) cc:    (bcc: Steven Reece/QRED/Quintiles)D  / Subject:  Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.d     Hi All,c  > I need to add a laptop, with RJ45 only, to a ThinWire network.  6 Does anyone have a favorite brand or model of adapter?8 Preferrably, it would be a device not requiring external power.  ; I really don't want to buy a whole hub/bridge/router, sinceh9 that defeats the advantage of ThinWire (not having to popI for a hub).   @ Please don't hesitate to tell me about your least favorite, too!   -Mike    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:23:12 -0500 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> 2 Subject: Re: Looking for RJ45-to-ThinWire adapter.+ Message-ID: <3A12D490.3E764348@hsc.vcu.edu>r  7 the cabletron one does not, it runs off the aui power..s   j.   Christoph Gartmann wrote:o > S > In article <3A12B2E3.F4BABCD6@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> writes:e& > >Black Box is good, www.blackbox.com > >y@ > >Cabletron, we have an aui to 10baseT that's worked for years. > = > But all this equipment requires a power supply, doesn't it?r > 
 > Regards, >    Christoph Gartmann  > J > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+J > | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |J > | Immunbiologie                                                        |J > | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |J > | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |J > +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:41:59 +0000i  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com3 Subject: Re: No doubts here (Was: Re: Galaxy doubt)eH Message-ID: <OFFF2038DC.0155763F-ON80256998.004B21BE@qedi.quintiles.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:dE >>>It's DII COE (Defense Information Infrastructure, Common OperatingeA Environment).  DII COE certification is technically separate, buta@ perhaps related, to commitments by Compaq to support OpenVMS for' some period of time into the future.<<<n   It's _very_ related.K One of the requirements of the DII COE certification is an explicit 20 yeareA commitment to the operating system.  This isn't just support as Ia understand it. Steve.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:59:49 +0100 > From: "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>3 Subject: OpenVMS website GALCULTATOR link is broken . Message-ID: <8utq4p$kqe$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>  9 I'm trying to following the link to the Galaxy galculatorg< from the OpenVMS portal, but the link seems to be broken ...  @ http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/alcV2/GALCULATOR.HTML   Jean-Franois Marchalu X9000 - LYON (FR)    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 04:34:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o@ Subject: RMS way to get long sequential records in multiple $GET, Message-ID: <3A124A8B.C0C32C92@videotron.ca>  L The manual states that $GET will truncate any record that isn't large enoughK to fit in the user's buffer and drop the superfluous data when reading datak from a file.  M What I am trying to do is to read some Microsoft text that is fed as one longaT paragraph per line in small chunks of say 100 bytes and do the word wrapping myself.  D What would are the FAB or RAB options I need to get this behaviour ?  D Since the C RTL is capable of this, I assume that RMS must have that capability somewhere ?   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:24:49 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)D Subject: Re: RMS way to get long sequential records in multiple $GET, Message-ID: <8uudch$elf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  \ In article <3A124A8B.C0C32C92@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:M >The manual states that $GET will truncate any record that isn't large enoughaL >to fit in the user's buffer and drop the superfluous data when reading data
 >from a file.p >lN >What I am trying to do is to read some Microsoft text that is fed as one longU >paragraph per line in small chunks of say 100 bytes and do the word wrapping myself.  >lE >What would are the FAB or RAB options I need to get this behaviour ?o >aE >Since the C RTL is capable of this, I assume that RMS must have thaty >capability somewhere ?y  K If that paragraph exceeds 32k bytes nothing that goes through RMS is going eL to handle it properly, and the only way you can even get the file onto your 2 system without mangling it is to move it BINARY.    E The safest way to deal with this is to open the file as a binary, and K process it a character at a time until you get your 100 bytes (plus/minus, dK or nearest white space, or whatever), while simultaneously scanning for EOL-' (which is probably CRLF on that file). 2  H If you want to treat the file as text and you're sure all lines are <32kG you can use the C fgets() function with a fixed buffer size to read one B fixed lengh buffer worth of data at a time from a long input line.  K Is this a one shot deal?  If so, in NEDIT select everything, and then FILL.e# Probably TPU can do the same thing.n   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduy? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech r   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:46 -0400I From: hein@eps.zko.dec.c*mD Subject: Re: RMS way to get long sequential records in multiple $GET& Message-ID: <15NOV200012464296@miasys>  ^ In article <3A124A8B.C0C32C92@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes...M >The manual states that $GET will truncate any record that isn't large enough6L >to fit in the user's buffer and drop the superfluous data when reading data  % Yes. It will give a warning ofcourse. G You can correct readily by re-allocating a bigger buffer and do a quicka) reposition with FAC=RFA, SYS$GET, FAC=SEQl7 Or you could simply have a 32KB buffer from the get go.n  N >What I am trying to do is to read some Microsoft text that is fed as one longU >paragraph per line in small chunks of say 100 bytes and do the word wrapping myself.   I Well, for it to be a valid RMS file, there would be a CR or LF terminatordC before you hit 32K, irrespective of lines and paragraphs (that's an D interpretation). But it is not going to be a 'valid' RMS file right?  F >What would are the FAB or RAB options I need to get this behaviour ? E >Since the C RTL is capable of this, I assume that RMS must have thath >capability somewhere ?a  G The C RTL just uses SYS$READ. You could do that to, but you'll have to eG unpuck from blocks worth of data  (which is almost what you wanted) anddJ you will loose the RMS read-ahead feature for record access if performance, is at all important (RAH, MBF=4, MBC=64...).  H You could modify the file attirbutes permanently and declare the file toK be fixed length record (Even record size!). RMS will then to record access.-  I My favourite method is to make is an UNDEFINED file. RMS will now read asb1 many bytes as you ask for untill it hits the end.-E Again, you can use SET FILE/ATTRI=RMF=UDF, but it is much more fun to C request RMS to pretend it is an UDF file. And all you have to do it L say 'pretty please'! See example below. (oh, be sure not to request FAC=PUT,9 because those temporary attributes will become permanent)o   hth, 	Hein.  8 /* get_udf.C, Hein van den Heuvel, Compaq, November 2000I ** Over-ride RMS file attributes through SYS$MODIFY to read as undefined.e */  % /* #define RME$C_SETRFM 0x00000001 */u #include <rmedef>. #include <string>i #include <stdlib>W #include <stdio> #include <file>5 #include <rms> #define RECSIZ 50   D int SYS$OPEN(), SYS$CONNECT(), SYS$GET(), SYS$MODIFY(), SYS$CLOSE(); main(int argc, char *argv[]) {m int buf[32*512], status; struct FAB fab = cc$rms_fab; struct RAB rab = cc$rms_rab; char	*p;       if (argc < 2) return 16;     fab.fab$b_fac = FAB$M_GET;     fab.fab$l_fna = argv[1];*     fab.fab$b_fns = strlen(fab.fab$l_fna);     rab.rab$l_fab = &fab;t!     rab.rab$l_ubf = (void *) buf;i9     rab.rab$w_usz = (argc > 2) ? atoi (argv[2]) : RECSIZ;0     status = SYS$OPEN(&fab);     fab.fab$l_fop = FAB$M_ESC;!     fab.fab$l_ctx = RME$C_SETRFM;      fab.fab$b_org = FAB$C_SEQ;     fab.fab$b_rfm = FAB$C_UDF;.     if (status & 1) status = SYS$MODIFY(&fab);/     if (status & 1) status = SYS$CONNECT(&rab); +     if (status & 1) status = SYS$GET(&rab);      while (status & 1) {? 	for (p=rab.rab$l_rbf; p< rab.rab$l_rbf + rab.rab$w_rsz; p++) {a 		if (*p < ' ') *p='.';o 		} K         printf ("%5d:%.*s\n", rab.rab$w_rsz, rab.rab$w_rsz, rab.rab$l_rbf);          status = SYS$GET(&rab);w 	}5     if (status == RMS$_EOF) status = SYS$CLOSE(&fab);e     return status; }g   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 17:28:09 GMTF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)O Subject: Security and Hidden Programs: (was How can I watch RealPlayer movies?).* Message-ID: <8uuh39$n28@usenet.pa.dec.com>  a In article <8uudpt$elf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:.  F >How do you know that they don't store it in a log file somewhere, andJ >automatically send it the next time you're on the network (whether or notJ >you start Realplayer in that session?)  Bet there's a realplayer icon on L >the screen when the Mac boots - do you know everything that it does at that
 >point???   B Good questions, which should probably be pursued under a different topic such as security.u  B I'm fairly certain that there isn't a RealPlayer icon on boot, butA I will check.  However, I can be certain that it doesn't send anys? information to anyone at this point because there is no outsideeB connection at this time.  Outside connections have to be initiated? manually when I want them.  I don't think there is any 'lurker'F@ program running on the system waiting for an internet connection? to become active so it can send a log file later, but it may bet worth checking to see.  @ Link to VMS: it's easier to 'hide' a program on MacOS than it is@ on VMS.  I think it's even easier to 'hide' a program on Windows than on MacOS or VMS.g  > FYI: the URL given in another article in this thread points to; a discussion of RealDownloader: this is interesting, but ita> isn't quite the same program as RealPlayer.  One still wonders= why the company that distributes this program and pushes hardi; on people to use the format would want or need to know whatc; movies people are watching, and what they intend to do withi= the information (and why they don't warn people up front thatt+ RealPlayer is giving out this information).n   --  (  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have ae5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:07:54 +0000e0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>7 Subject: Re: Severity of eBay's ecache problem detailedb* Message-ID: <3A12B4DA.74BCA7CB@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >  > Calling the kettle black?d >    This is Arnes Rule  L > > Arnes rule to distinguish between technical people and marekting people:J > > Do they consider information about systems not shipping yet for fact ?& > > Yes => marketing. No => technical. > >y  ; I havn't made any pronouncments of "fact" about any future a. systems. So I fail Arnes test for a Marketeer.  ( Rob on the other hand has pronounced on.  6 Spiralog (when it was a lab project and a white paper) Galaxies (ditto) WildFire (ditto) 21264	 (ditto)  D In the case of Spiralog for example all of Robs pronouncements aboutF the performance gains to be had using Spiralog turned out to be untrueE and his extrapolation to its effects on TPC-C performance also turneda out to be wildly optimistic.  B Now if Rob had prefaced all these pronouncments with a disclaimer D then by Arnes definition he could still claim to be technical as it @ is he didn't and so he cannot (at least using Arnes definition).     Regardsi Andrew Harrisonr Enterprise IT Architectr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:36:34 +0010C% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aum' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections 5 Message-ID: <01JWKWXYTVDU006B3J@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Carl Perkins wrote:k  1 >koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler) writes...tA >}In article <8us450$36o1$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" A& ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >}> M >}> But in reality, they could also release the electors from their bonds and & >}> allow a faithless vote in Florida. >}>  >} _G >}Does Florida hold the electors to their vote?  One Republican elector-) >}has already said she may vote for Gore.  >tE >With a quick look at the Florida constitution, each elector takes an4E >oath that requires them to vote as pledged. On the other hand, it is>G >not clear what happens if they don't. They can be removed as electors,lI >but it does not say that the vote is nullified (it also doesn't say whatoF >punishment there is, other than being removed as an elector - this is> >probably covered by law other than the Florida constitution).  J This sounds to me a bit silly.  Not your writing, but what you are saying  happens in US.  Q Do I read you correctly (and there have been similar comments to yours) that you uP have to "sign up" as a Republican or a Democrat and that is the way you have to O vote for the rest of your life -- what happened to Ralph Nader?  Or unless you  O re-sign to another affiliation?  Presumably people are allowed to change their   minds?  P I thought public declaration of your affiliations went out (in UK) in the 1800s.  F If you have to vote as declared, why have an election?  Just let each M state/county tally the number of declared voters for either party.  It would m save the candidates a fortune.  9 I must surely be missing/misinterpreting something here!!a   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,f
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australian   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,t; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 06:53:08 -0500 . From: "Crowley, George M." <gmcrowley@tva.gov>' Subject: RE: Technology of US ElectionssN Message-ID: <E43037234EFCCF11B99B0000F8014A4003493853@knxwbnois1b.wbn.tva.gov>  J I thought the electors where nothing more than party 'hacks'.  Is that not true?n   > ----------3 > From: 	Bob Koehler[SMTP:koehler@EISNER.DECUS.ORG] + > Sent: 	Tuesday, November 14, 2000 3:09 PM-  > To: 	INFO-VAX@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU* > Subject: 	Re: Technology of US Elections > @ > In article <8us450$36o1$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"' > <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:: > >LI > > But in reality, they could also release the electors from their bonds2 > and0& > > allow a faithless vote in Florida. > >  > G > Does Florida hold the electors to their vote?  One Republican elector ) > has already said she may vote for Gore.i > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationl? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouprG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingt >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:02:44 +0000 $ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsn/ Message-ID: <00256998.00422BE1.00@quegw01.btyp>e  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza     JF,l  ? Was this an intentional spelling mistake, or a Freudian slip...   
 "2 erections"b   ;^D/   Steve Spires        A JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> on 15/11/2000 04:41:01 AM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)MO From:      JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>, 15 November 2000, 4:41 a.m.i   Re: Technology of US elections        K When Clinton had his 2 erections, did the republicans make any complains in 9 any counties, requesting a recount ? Or is this a first ?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:15:17 -0500i0 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsb2 Message-ID: <OowSOl8X827tiM73bdm6rrOF0nHJ@4ax.com>   Interesting way to put it ...o  9 No, I don't think any recounts were requested because thes elections were not that close.  , On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:41:01 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:   L >When Clinton had his 2 erections, did the republicans make any complains in: >any counties, requesting a recount ? Or is this a first ?   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 08:32:11 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsr+ Message-ID: <JtDA1vXeBDE1@eisner.decus.org>m  \ In article <8usv8j$kgk$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes: > F > The 1-week, 17:00 deadline is a statutory deadline that has been in H > effect for years.  The Secretary of State of Florida who is enforcing 6 > this deadline is performing her duty, under the law.  H That statement is arguable.  In typical political fashion there are two H Florida statutes:  one of which says counts received after that deadlineF WILL be ignored, the very next statute says they MAY be ignored.  This. is exactly what was brought before the courts.  B The Florida Secretary of State showed her bias when she declared aL <prove your need is valid> aproach to accepting ballots after that deadline,D rather than a <unless I show your need is invalid> aproach.  I would@ expect a Democrat in the same position to have shown exactly the opposite bias.    D What's really troubling is that Florida should have set unambiguous C procedures for making these decisions and does not.  I suspect mosti states are in simmilar shape.     B As a government contractor I cannot bid on government RFPs withoutA having set unambiguous procedures (ISO 9000); whether that reallyfC provides a better product is not clear.  The politicians should tryeF auditing the laws they passed against ISO 9000 some day since the laws) are the procedures officials must follow.-  H IMHO the results will be decided when the absentee ballots are in, until then I see no need to rush.l  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 07:16 CSTY' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)-' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections - Message-ID: <15NOV200007164487@gerg.tamu.edu>o  ) paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes...o }Carl Perkins wrote:2 }>koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler) writes...B }>}In article <8us450$36o1$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" ' }><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:p }>}> pN }>}> But in reality, they could also release the electors from their bonds and' }>}> allow a faithless vote in Florida.e }>}>   }>} H }>}Does Florida hold the electors to their vote?  One Republican elector* }>}has already said she may vote for Gore. }>F }>With a quick look at the Florida constitution, each elector takes anF }>oath that requires them to vote as pledged. On the other hand, it isH }>not clear what happens if they don't. They can be removed as electors,J }>but it does not say that the vote is nullified (it also doesn't say whatG }>punishment there is, other than being removed as an elector - this isa? }>probably covered by law other than the Florida constitution).t } K }This sounds to me a bit silly.  Not your writing, but what you are saying t }happens in US.g } R }Do I read you correctly (and there have been similar comments to yours) that you Q }have to "sign up" as a Republican or a Democrat and that is the way you have to  P }vote for the rest of your life -- what happened to Ralph Nader?  Or unless you P }re-sign to another affiliation?  Presumably people are allowed to change their  }minds?  } Q }I thought public declaration of your affiliations went out (in UK) in the 1800s.  } G }If you have to vote as declared, why have an election?  Just let each  N }state/county tally the number of declared voters for either party.  It would  }save the candidates a fortune.l } : }I must surely be missing/misinterpreting something here!! }  }Regards, Paddye  @ You are. I was talking about the electors, not the voters. As inB "the people who officially cast the electoral votes". Florida getsD 25 electoral votes in the presidential election, so in Florida thereF are 25 electors (which is what the popular vote in the state is reallyB voting for - who gets to be an elector; if Gore wins the potentialG electors selected by the Democrats become the actual electors, likewiseoD for Bush and the Republican choices - third party electors have been. few and far between in the last half century).  G As a voter, you only have to declare a party affiliation if you want toqI vote in the primaries (which determine which candiate will be the party's-H candidate on the final ballot - some states let you vote in any primary,E but only one of them, and others have various deadlines for declaringeG your party before the primaries). Other than that, you can vote howevereE you want (including incorrectly, as demonstrated by a bunch of peoplea in the current election).n  C All in all, this is a lot more complicated that voting on whether aaE VMScluster is still active or not. (But it is not entirely dissimilaraD since different nodes can have different numbers of votes - considerF each state to be a node with votes equal to its electoral votes, whereH the nodes supporting lots of users getting more than the ones supporting fewer users...)m  C The whole thing was a compromise (of the same sort that lead to thecB two branches of congress, one with proportional representation andB the other with a fixes 2 per state representation) aimed at givingH the small population states some not inconsequential input into choosingK the president. The original method, which actually passed the constitutinallF convention's voting 4 times but that got changed later in the process,I was for the president to be selected by Congress. The direct popular voteoH method was voted down twice. So was the electoral system - the first tryH had the electors being selected by the state legislatures and the secondH attempt had them being selected by popular vote. The third method (whichG made it into the final version of the constitution) let each state pick F how to do it for themseleves. 200 and some years later, the states useI two basic methods: 48 use the "all or nothing" method and the other 2 usefJ by-district selection for all but 2 and full-state for the last two, sinceI each state gets a number equal to the number of representatives they have/E in the House of Representatives (which is roughly proportional to thesE state's population, give or take rounding) plus a number equal to thepD number of senators they get, (which is always two). A constitutionalL ammendment gives Washington D.C. (which isn't part of any state) 3 electoral8 votes (which all go to the winner of its popular vote).   H This, of course, assumes that the electors all vote as they are supposedH to. Historically, several of them have not, but it has never changed theK outcome of an election - unless you count the 1876 election where the votes5F for Florida, Louisiana, and South Carolina were assigned to Hayes by aF commission of congressmen and supreme court justices without regard toH how the votes in the state went, which was the other way in at least oneH of them, which made Hayes president instead of Tilden who really won theI election (although there was rather extensive corruption in the election,bE the process leading to assigning them wasn't really any more honest).?G The people involved in that at the state level went along because HayesoE evidently promised them something that they wanted - the withdrawl of G troops and the end of reconstruction (which had been going on since theSE end of the Civil War). (Hayes was also one of the presidents that won G by electoral votes but got fewer popular votes than another candidate.)(  @ Changing to a direct popular vote would require a constitutional0 ammendment, and that just isn't going to happen.  C Yet another long, off-topic post (though I did squeeze a VMSclusterS reference in there)...  , --- Carl (of the many parenthetical remarks)   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 08:46:53 -0500, From: koehler@eisner.decus.org (Bob Koehler)' Subject: Re: Technology of US Electionsd+ Message-ID: <YKekKwNwKjxZ@eisner.decus.org>:  ] In article <01JWKWXYTVDU006B3J@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:c > Carl Perkins wrote:c > L > This sounds to me a bit silly.  Not your writing, but what you are saying  > happens in US. > S > Do I read you correctly (and there have been similar comments to yours) that you tR > have to "sign up" as a Republican or a Democrat and that is the way you have to ! > vote for the rest of your life n  H Electors in the electoral college are selected by the party and are wellH known party members who can be expected to vote along party lines, oftenF people who have a very large political career at stake and depend upon) party affiliation to further that career.    E Some states have no legal requirement for them to vote as anticipatednH and states which do impose legal requirement often lack in providing anyH punishment if such law is broken.  One can expect such an action to have? strong impacts on future political careers, so legally mandatedt  punishment may not be necessary.  G We all get to change parties as many times as we wish in our lives, but D some states refuse to recognize such change during 90 days (or other& fixed time) before a primary election.  C The term "primary" can be confusing as it has no primacy other thannD calendar order.  A primary election is used by the parties to chooseG candidiates from amongst several in the party.  The general election isrC used to choose office holders from amongst candidates.  Despite thenI results of the primary the candidates in a general election may be of thec same party.   G November 7 was a general election.  I had a choice of one candidate fortB US President from each of 4 parties, plus several offical write inE candidates including a few Democrats and a couple Republicans runnings without party support.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationU= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupsE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:56:20 +0000j. From: Peter Jackson <peter.jackson@oracle.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US Electionsu* Message-ID: <3A129604.4B728408@oracle.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0FA628B922534AD83FEA20A1* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bito  M I don't think manual counts can be 100% accurate when you get up to realistic  numbers.O E.g. in UK elections we have purely manual counting, and many recounts at everys	 election, N but recounts very rarely match to original results or each other when multiple ones are done.O We have much smaller voting groups so two or three recounts over a single nights
 are possible.oO When a recount is called for the entire group is recounted (recounting only the 
 ones that are J likely to favour one candidate does not look fair - all or none would seem better).  O Splitting the larger states into several voting regions (for this purpose only)  each of which voteshN for a separate group of no more than 5 electors, would be the change I think I would support if I were an american citizen.i  
 Peter Jacksoni! This is my personal opinion only.r   John Macallister wrote:-  0 > > No one has come up with an error free system >CJ > The manual count can be completely error free when counting valid ballotL > papers. Once agreement has been reached on what constitutes a valid ballot8 > paper they can be counted manually with 100% accuracy.  & --------------0FA628B922534AD83FEA20A1- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;a  name="peter.jackson.vcf"  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bita+ Content-Description: Card for Peter Jackson   Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="peter.jackson.vcf"i   begin:vcard  n:Jackson;Petere tel;fax:01344 415100 tel;work:0118 9249165d x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Oracle Corporation UK Ltd.
 adr:;;;;;; version:2.1a' email;internet:peter.jackson@oracle.com  fn:Peter Jackson	 end:vcardh  ( --------------0FA628B922534AD83FEA20A1--   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:26:54 -0500a0 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US Electionsr2 Message-ID: <xI4SOjM3HdroIV5JzqJsBQ65nrLw@4ax.com>  = That's 2/3 of both the House and Senate and passage by 3/4 of B the state legislatures to amend the Constitution.  As I've said in? another post, it will probably never get through the Senate andt? no way would it pass the required number of state legislatures.m  : By the way, imagine the mess if a popular vote were close!   David R. Beattyp  F On 14 Nov 2000 20:42:49 GMT, hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) wrote:a   >le >In article <8us450$36o1$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: L >>My feeling is:  Do away with the electoral college.  If the vote is withinF >>1% of the popular vote - allow a hand-to-hand deathmatch between theL >>candidates.  I think Gore can take Bush with nothing but fists and knives,= >>but it would give a new meaning to a Jesse Ventura run  ;-)e > 1 >But George W should be allowed to use a gun, no?0 >yG >More seriously -- I doubt *very* much that even Senator Elect Clinton 2G >can get rid of the Electoral College.  It was envisioned as one of the L >protections the smaller states have against dominance by the larger states.M >The logic of this may or may not apply today, but there are enough "smaller" F >states that would protect there self interest so that the two thirds M >majority needed to ammend the constitutin to eliminate this will never pass.4 >CI >A more achievable goal would be to require the states to apportion theiroG >electoral votes in proportion to the popular vote in each state.  I.E.-F >the two votes representing the states two Senators would be awareded L >based on the popular vote in the entire state, and the remaing votes based E >on the poplular votes in each of the states congressional districts.z   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:07:15 +0100 / From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>h' Subject: RE: Technology of US Elections 7 Message-ID: <009F3295.D2173295.35@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>i   > . > On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, John Macallister wrote:M > > If banks can count money manually with 100% accuracy vote counters can do-
 > > the same.- > L > It's sad that our votes aren't treated with the same respect as $1 bills,  > isn't it?t >  > --Stan   Yes. t  M But you're buying the premise that banks manage 100% with money. They don't.  H The error rate is low, but banknotes do occasionally get stuck together.E And as for automation ... tales of cash dispensers malfunctioning arepJ quite common. Customers complain if they get too little, keep shtumm if it goes the other way.      	Yours,c
 		Nigel Arnot - 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   t  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:30:12 +0100 / From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>2' Subject: re: Technology of US Electionsv7 Message-ID: <009F3299.06D02CFF.23@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>   8 > What is interesting though is the sheer size of votes: > L > 100 million votes, cast over a period of 12 hours results in an average ofM > 2315 transactions per second. ( with capacity needed to be higher to handlesG > peak hours) Remember that those are "real" transactions, not some TPS : > benchmarks designed as bird feed for marketing critters. > N > Also, consider that many voting booths are setup in schools etc (at least inO > Canada, I assume the same in the USA). So do you setup telecom infrastructure K > to carry votes "live" throughout the day, or do you store them locally (aaO > couple of DS10s would do fine :-) during the day and do a batch transfer oncerB > the poll has closed ? If so, how do you transfer those batches ? > O > For a nation the size of the USA, it means a hell of a lot of polling centres?F > to be outfitted and a large amount of telecom infrastructure needed. >   3 Rubbish! You are unnecessarily centralising things.T  J Have one computer system per polling station. For security, a stand-alone,I with no network connection at all. For verifiability, a non-virtual paperdE system needs to be maintained in parallel, which also looks after theeM case where the computer crashes or otherwise malfunctions. After polls close,iK get each computer to print its totals, in human and machine-readable forms.s4 Sum one return from each polling station centrally.    	Yours, 
 		Nigel Arnott- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   a  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."y   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 09:21:11 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)s' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections * Message-ID: <8uu64n$ksq$1@lisa.gemair.com>  7 In article <009F3295.D2173295.35@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>,a1 Nigel Arnot  <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> wrote:m >> i/ >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, John Macallister wrote: N >> > If banks can count money manually with 100% accuracy vote counters can do >> > the same. >> eM >> It's sad that our votes aren't treated with the same respect as $1 bills, a >> isn't it? >> t	 >> --Stan  >  >Yes.  >nN >But you're buying the premise that banks manage 100% with money. They don't. I >The error rate is low, but banknotes do occasionally get stuck together.uF >And as for automation ... tales of cash dispensers malfunctioning areK >quite common. Customers complain if they get too little, keep shtumm if itw >goes the other way. s >e  L The comparison of bank notes to ballots is pretty absurd.  Bank notes aren'tJ filled out by individuals and collected by people who only do this kind of thing once every year, at best.F  K Things could be better, but if you've ever worked with local governments in K the US, you know how incredibly cheap and unwilling to consider new systems- they can be.   >2 >	Yours, >		Nigel Arnot. >		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                    >l8 >		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded." >u   -Jordan Hendersone jordan@greenapple.comt   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 09:26:59 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson).' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsg* Message-ID: <8uu6fj$l69$1@lisa.gemair.com>  2 In article <OowSOl8X827tiM73bdm6rrOF0nHJ@4ax.com>,2 David Beatty  <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com> wrote: >i >Interesting way to put it ... >    Indeed.e  : >No, I don't think any recounts were requested because the >elections were not that close.> >h  E The closest parallel is the 1960 Presidential Election, when Richard tA Nixon decided to conceed rather than fight in order to spare the oD country.  In that election there were many many accusations of voterD fraud by Democrats in Illinois and Texas, two states that, had Nixon. won them, would have given him the election.    G Funny that Richard Daley, in Chicago, was thought to have been involvedoH in voter fraud in Illinois in the 1960 Presidential Election and now hisH son, Bill Daley, is the chief spokesman for the Gore Campaign on what's  happening in Florida.   - >On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:41:01 -0400, JF Mezeii& ><jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: >aM >>When Clinton had his 2 erections, did the republicans make any complains in ; >>any counties, requesting a recount ? Or is this a first ?? >r   -Jordan Hendersonl jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 15:13:16 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)o' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionss: Message-ID: <8uu96c$ior$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  ) In message <8usv8j$kgk$1@lisa.gemair.com>a4    jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:I >There is a statistician from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas who hasiJ >published an analysis of the "found" votes in Palm Beach County and notesH >that they are many times in favor of Al Gore over George Bush from whatN >you would expect when extrapolating from the rest of the votes in Palm Beach.  F My recollection of the raw numbers from the sample recount is that theF undercount (null vote) corrections are in nearly the same 2 to 1 ratioF for Gore as the overall vote in that county.  It did upset me when theG commissoner multiplied the net gain (19) by 100 to get a projection foraK a full recount.  The precincts chosen for the 1% sample were chosen because > they were 'anomalous' and likely to produce large corrections.  A >Also, there is a valid question, recognized by 2 of the 4 countyrB >canvassing boards (Miami-Dade & Broward) that the request for theB >manual recounts is invalid under law.  The law can be interpretedF >as only allowing manual recounts in cases where a systemic tabulation3 >error (mechanical, software, etc.) has been shown.n  M It's been clearly shown that a small percentage of people correctly followinglJ voting procedure (inserting punch fully in hole and withdrawing) don't getK their votes counted due to 'hanging chad' - that IS a systemic error in thevK tabulation equipment. (I wonder if the humidity in southern Florida affectsg& the performance of those punch cards).  L The Republicans of course would object strongly to a hybrid recount, wherebyM you would mechanically sort out the null votes and inspect them individually. G This assumes that the necessary card handling equipment and software is 
 available.    < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet: L 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  + Disclaimer: Dogs can't tell it's not bacon.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:17:35 -0500s# From: John Vottero <John@MVPSI.com> ' Subject: RE: Technology of US electionseD Message-ID: <C15945A9D9EFCF11BA8B08002BBF1CCC0CD8B4@berry.mvpsi.com>  ; Are you kidding?  They impeached Clinton for his erections!r   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]+ > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:41 PMy > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comu) > Subject: Re: Technology of US elections  >  > = > When Clinton had his 2 erections, did the republicans make v > any complains in; > any counties, requesting a recount ? Or is this a first ?' >    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 15:44:20 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections., Message-ID: <8uub0k$elf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  Z In article <8uspmb$42rv$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <nospam@please.com> writes:I >Dunno.  Most states either mandate it by law, and/or create penalties so L >high that most people would not try.  That *wasn't* the intent of those who >devised it. >t > ! >Bob Koehler wrote in message ...s@ >>In article <8us450$36o1$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"& ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >>>oM >>> But in reality, they could also release the electors from their bonds anda& >>> allow a faithless vote in Florida. >>>n >>G >>Does Florida hold the electors to their vote?  One Republican electors) >>has already said she may vote for Gore.s  = It's very unclear whether the state laws binding electors are G constitutional.  The thing that tends to bind them the most is that thedF parties select only the most faithful political hacks to be electors.      David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edug? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:08:01 +0000a8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>' Subject: RE: Technology of US ElectionseL Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240111FBB@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  D >I don't think manual counts can be 100% accurate when you get up to	 realistic 	 >numbers.a  H A manual count or recount can and does have the potential to count votesJ accurately. If you consider how a manual count or recount might be carriedJ out it will become obvious. A count involves many smaller repeat counts orL recounts within it i.e. a count doesn't simply involve a single pass. CountsL are done in managable bundles with votes being stacked in, say, piles of oneE hundred. The first recount will include a recount of all bundles as aoH sensible check. For the second recount, only the bundles which differ inF total from the previous count will be recounted. If a third recount isC necessary only the bundles which differ from the last count will beoE processed and so on until no bundles differ. This whole process would I actually occur in the first manual count in most elections. Thus, when anyJ official recount is called for in manually counted elections, the countersJ will be repeating the above process on bundles of paper which have alreadyK been checked a few times. Another factor which aids accuracy is that voterspH are counted as they vote and so a count is not validated until the totalG votes cast (+ spoiled ballots) agrees with the number of people voting.aH Another feature making the whole process managable is that the votes forL each polling station or ballot box are counted separately before being addedI together to find a district total. I don't believe there is any allowance E for an element of error in the total counted: the count has to tally.a  K When you consider that millions of ballot papers are not being processed by D any one group of people in manually counted elections but only a fewF thousand at a time it seems clear to me that 100% accuracy is possible without too much difficulty.  L Another thing which is very clear is that the US Election has not produced a result of, say,h    Gore: 48,234,567   Bush: 48,123,456f   but rather a result of:     Gore: 48 +/- 1 milliona  Bush: 48 +/- 1 millionD  I In any statistician's estimate this is a dead heat and whatever procedure-K has been decided to deal with a dead heat has to be implemented. I guess in @ the case of the US this is where the Electoral College comes in.  J There must be many people in the US who long for a system where a count ofF 48,234,567 or 48,123,456 would actually mean that that number of validD ballot papers had been counted for each candidate. The US system, inI general, does not appear to lend itself well to manual counting as manual-K counts are perhaps not really viable on objects designed to be processed byr	 machines.-  K This US election may forever be quoted as the classic case of the misuse ofoC technology. The technology has been applied in a way which makes it1A impossible to count the number of valid ballot papers accurately.e   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)r   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:08:26 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections , Message-ID: <8uucdq$elf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  e In article <xI4SOjM3HdroIV5JzqJsBQ65nrLw@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com> writes:  >y; >By the way, imagine the mess if a popular vote were close!n  M That's because currently the definition of a tie in our elections is way too cJ narrow.  Most places it has to be an exact tie, but that's ridiculous whenC dealing with millions of votes.  If it was required that the winnerCH "convincingly beat" everybody else things would be simpler.  It would beF considered an (N-way) tie between the highest vote candidates who wereK within 0.5% of the candidate with the highest total vote, and the tie would-E be broken by coin toss, card draw, or other unbiased method.  0.5% isa7 arbitrary of course, it could just as well be 1% or 2%.d  K The reason to consider this is that while a 101 to 100 win in basketball isaJ clearly a win, a 50,000,000 to 50,000,300 "victory" in an election just asK clearly does not represent a clear signal that the voters really prefer onec candidate over the other.   I Of course you could still get into a mess if the second candidate came insG .5001% behind, but I'd also ban recounts (except for outright electoral-J fraud) once a broader definition of a tie was in place.  It's a lot easierJ for me to accept that a candidate barely missed the tie cutoff at .5% thanF it is to accept a win by one candidate over the other by .0001% of theJ vote, which is clearly within the statistical errors of the whole process.  K But if we were to put in that change, we should probably also consider one tJ of the more modern electoral methods, which tend to require each voter to L rank the candidates (vote more than once, essentially) and those have their " own variants of a "tie" condition.   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech .   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:07:52 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections%- Message-ID: <8uucco$5p$3@info.service.rug.nl>t  , In article <8uub0k$elf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,5 mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:    \ > In article <8uspmb$42rv$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <nospam@please.com> writes:K > >Dunno.  Most states either mandate it by law, and/or create penalties sorN > >high that most people would not try.  That *wasn't* the intent of those who > >devised it. > >o > >e# > >Bob Koehler wrote in message ...eB > >>In article <8us450$36o1$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"( > ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: > >>>wO > >>> But in reality, they could also release the electors from their bonds ande( > >>> allow a faithless vote in Florida. > >>>a > >>I > >>Does Florida hold the electors to their vote?  One Republican electori+ > >>has already said she may vote for Gore.u > ? > It's very unclear whether the state laws binding electors aresI > constitutional.  The thing that tends to bind them the most is that thesH > parties select only the most faithful political hacks to be electors.  >  >  > David Mathog > mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu-A > Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech o  F It is clear that they are not bound.  True, bad, but perhaps one evil  can combat another.9  H If Bush barely scrapes in, and the popular vote is still overwhelmingly I in favour of Gore, and only 1 or 2 electors need to swing over, I'm sure t1 they will.  They will become Heroes of Democracy.t  E I'm sure Nader is waiting in the wings to subject the election ritual  the same treatment he gave GM. u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:34:52 +0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>' Subject: RE: Technology of US Elections.L Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240111FBD@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  F >The comparison of bank notes to ballots is pretty absurd.  Bank notes aren'tK >filled out by individuals and collected by people who only do this kind ofe  >thing once every year, at best.  I On the contrary, the comparison with bank notes and coins is very apt and1J perhaps more so in the US where all notes are the same size and one has toK peer carefully at any note to determine its value. The counting of money is.H something which usually has to be 100% accurate. It doesn't say much forI democracy in the US if people are prepared to accept that votes cannot be  counted accurately.   K While bank employees may regularly have to count large amounts of cash withtG their jobs often depending on 100% accuracy there are many thousands ofsL people in every country running voluntary events where large amounts of cashF are being counted by people not doing this for a living and where 100% accuracy is again required.l  I I think the decision between Gore and Bush should be decided by tossing atJ quarter and a dollar bill into the air. If the quarter comes up heads GoreI wins and if it comes up tails give it to Bush but if the quarter hits thefK ground before the dollar bill Bill Clinton should be asked to serve a thirdf term.    John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:33:35 +0000a0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionse* Message-ID: <3A12BADF.21905BD3@uk.sun.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:e > , > In article <3A118784.2E01BB31@uk.sun.com>,4 > andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:< > >The BBC interviewed Robert Mugabe's campaign manager last9 > >week and he pointed out that if Zimbabwe had conductedn> > >their vote in the way that the US had then the UN observers; > >would have said that the election was not free and fair.s > >a< > >The BBC reporter had rather reluctantly to agree with his	 > >point.s > >D > : > The important points that you, Robert Mugabe and the BBS6 > reporter are missing here is that recounts are being= > done only in areas where Gore has strong electoral support,c7 > with a process that is without standards and is beingw' > overseen by rabid Democrat partisans.> > = Thats fine but the Bush camp can quite easily demand recountst< in the other areas where Bush is stronger. But they havn't ,9 they have threatened to do so but havn't actually called  
 for recounts.h  > And the fact is that each recount has reduced the Bush margin B because it has uncovered ballot papers that were either discarded  or incorrectly counted.o  < Remember the people doing the count are not just looking for< mistakes that lost Gore votes they are looking for mistakes # that cost all the candidates votes.e  < And each voting slip that they uncover that was miss counted? or discarded incorrectly is one more voter who would otherwise ,9 have been disenfranchised because of inedequacies in the r voting process.v  = Because of this it is difficult to see how Bushes position is > other than anti-democratic because each count that his lawyers4 get stopped means more voters being disenfranchised.  < This is what I ment when I said that the democratic process  appears to be being subverted. g  D It is also difficult to see how the 17:00 deadline can be justified,C it was introduced to ensure that results were submitted in a timelycG fashion but it was not designed to cope with an abnormal situation like. the D one today with a very close vote and big questions about the layout ; of ballot papers etc, abnormal number of spoilt papers etc.u  H To an outsider it looks very much as if the Bush campaign are attemptingE to win the election on a technicality which ignores the wishes of thel majority of the people.   C Now this may not be true but the only way out of this for the Bush  @ campaign is to agree to a full recount for the whole of Florida.    9 > As James Baker said, "machines are neither Democrat norx9 > Republican".  The point being that a machine recount ofh> > ballots that are designed to be machine read (not manually)," > is the only reasonable standard. >   C Again this is not defensible on the evidence of the manual recountsBB so far which show that for what ever reasons (design of the ballot papersD etc) that in effect the machines are biased towards the Republicans ? because the manual recounts have shown up more papers for Gore e than for Bush.  @ Now I know that more papers for Gore are likely to surface in a A Democratic area than a Republican area but this does not explain e> the abnormally high number of rejected ballots in some of the  areas.   Regardsr Andrew Harrisong Enterprise IT Architectn   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:00:33 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)e' Subject: Re: Technology of US electionsa* Message-ID: <8uuffh$uph$1@lisa.gemair.com>  : In article <8uu96c$ior$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,2 David Jones <JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:* >In message <8usv8j$kgk$1@lisa.gemair.com>5 >   jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:uJ >>There is a statistician from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas who hasK >>published an analysis of the "found" votes in Palm Beach County and notestI >>that they are many times in favor of Al Gore over George Bush from whatoO >>you would expect when extrapolating from the rest of the votes in Palm Beach.  >mG >My recollection of the raw numbers from the sample recount is that theuG >undercount (null vote) corrections are in nearly the same 2 to 1 ratio G >for Gore as the overall vote in that county.  It did upset me when thetH >commissoner multiplied the net gain (19) by 100 to get a projection forL >a full recount.  The precincts chosen for the 1% sample were chosen because? >they were 'anomalous' and likely to produce large corrections.u >r  E Actually, I glanced only at the headline and didn't really understandeB what the UNLV professor was saying.  It appears that the professorD is pointing at the statistical unlikelihood of Al Gore picking up so8 many votes in the automated recount, not the manual one.  ? Still, it brings up troubling questions about the whole recounta? process.  It seems that this Professor has determined that the  = likelihood of Gore gaining the votes he did over Bush in the c< automated recount is equivalent to being struck by lightning	 30 times!l  Y http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/archives/2000/nov/10/511018638.html?tom+carroll   B >>Also, there is a valid question, recognized by 2 of the 4 countyC >>canvassing boards (Miami-Dade & Broward) that the request for theeC >>manual recounts is invalid under law.  The law can be interpreted G >>as only allowing manual recounts in cases where a systemic tabulation 4 >>error (mechanical, software, etc.) has been shown. >tN >It's been clearly shown that a small percentage of people correctly followingK >voting procedure (inserting punch fully in hole and withdrawing) don't getgL >their votes counted due to 'hanging chad' - that IS a systemic error in theL >tabulation equipment. (I wonder if the humidity in southern Florida affects' >the performance of those punch cards).M >i  I It seems difficult to claim that this is a tabulation error that requires:G a manual recount when they have been using this balloting mechanism forcH years.  You might envision a court case where the citizens of Palm BeachD could claim disenfranchisement based on the technology used in theirH election, but it's a long recognized problem with the technology in use,C not a breakdown of that technology, which is what appears to be theu intent of the law.  > Recall also that handling of these cards, running them throughI the automated readers and manual handling has also been shown to fray theeH chad to the point that some could fall into the '3 corner chad' categoryE that they are currently counting as a vote.  I'm not saying that this*> would favor Al Gore, necessarily, although the possibility of @ introducing any uncertainty in the process is a concern when youC take into account the UNLV professor's analysis. It does bring the  E whole process in question, particularly after the statutory time for n recounts has passed.  M >The Republicans of course would object strongly to a hybrid recount, wherebyON >you would mechanically sort out the null votes and inspect them individually.H >This assumes that the necessary card handling equipment and software is >available.e >   C And the Democrats are in court right now trying to get any visible u@ indentation on the chad at all to count as a vote.  Think of the= potential for abuse and confusion if they get what they want.y   >s= >David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-69291. >Ohio State University        |      Internet:M >140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu ; >Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.eduy >s, >Disclaimer: Dogs can't tell it's not bacon.   -Jordan Hendersonn jordan@greenapple.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:16:26 -0500 0 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com>' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections 2 Message-ID: <bMQSOvUIN9W3jhN2WI0V3GFet8x7@4ax.com>  
 <BIG SNIP> >tG >It is clear that they are not bound.  True, bad, but perhaps one evil s >can combat another. >aI >If Bush barely scrapes in, and the popular vote is still overwhelmingly fJ >in favour of Gore, and only 1 or 2 electors need to swing over, I'm sure 2 >they will.  They will become Heroes of Democracy.  B I don't think I would call 200,000 out of 100 million votes (0.2%)
 overwhelming.   5 Besides, the U.S. government is not a democracy; it'so a federal republic.    > F >I'm sure Nader is waiting in the wings to subject the election ritual  >the same treatment he gave GM.    That's a scary thought ...   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:38:46 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)h' Subject: Re: Technology of US Electionss* Message-ID: <8uuhn6$1f0$1@lisa.gemair.com>  2 In article <bMQSOvUIN9W3jhN2WI0V3GFet8x7@4ax.com>,2 David Beatty  <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com> wrote: ><BIG SNIP>e >>H >>It is clear that they are not bound.  True, bad, but perhaps one evil  >>can combat another.v >>J >>If Bush barely scrapes in, and the popular vote is still overwhelmingly K >>in favour of Gore, and only 1 or 2 electors need to swing over, I'm sure a3 >>they will.  They will become Heroes of Democracy.h >oC >I don't think I would call 200,000 out of 100 million votes (0.2%)s >overwhelming. >e  ? People should withold calling the popular vote just yet.  It's  C estimated that there are still 1,000,000 uncounted absentee ballotsyD that have yet to be tallied in the country as a whole.  It's thought& that these will go heavily Republican.  6 >Besides, the U.S. government is not a democracy; it's >a federal republic. >h >>G >>I'm sure Nader is waiting in the wings to subject the election rituala! >>the same treatment he gave GM. a >a >That's a scary thought ...- >a   -Jordan Hendersonl jordan@greenapple.como   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Nov 2000 12:36:20 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)o' Subject: Re: Technology of US elections * Message-ID: <8uuhik$1bf$1@lisa.gemair.com>  * In article <3A12BADF.21905BD3@uk.sun.com>,2 andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >Jordan Henderson wrote: >> p- >> In article <3A118784.2E01BB31@uk.sun.com>,m5 >> andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: = >> >The BBC interviewed Robert Mugabe's campaign manager lasty: >> >week and he pointed out that if Zimbabwe had conducted? >> >their vote in the way that the US had then the UN observers1< >> >would have said that the election was not free and fair. >> >= >> >The BBC reporter had rather reluctantly to agree with hish
 >> >point. >> > >> u; >> The important points that you, Robert Mugabe and the BBS,7 >> reporter are missing here is that recounts are being2> >> done only in areas where Gore has strong electoral support,8 >> with a process that is without standards and is being( >> overseen by rabid Democrat partisans. >> i> >Thats fine but the Bush camp can quite easily demand recounts= >in the other areas where Bush is stronger. But they havn't ,a: >they have threatened to do so but havn't actually called  >for recounts. >t? >And the fact is that each recount has reduced the Bush margin eC >because it has uncovered ballot papers that were either discarded e >or incorrectly counted. >u= >Remember the people doing the count are not just looking fort= >mistakes that lost Gore votes they are looking for mistakes e$ >that cost all the candidates votes. >w  8 There's a real question as to what they are looking for.8 Palm Beach County changed their standards for recounting4 during the process and no other county actually even had a written standard.%  6 Elsewhere in this thread, I pointed out the article by4 a statistician who claims that the gains by the Gore5 camp from the _automated_ recount were so unlikely as,3 to be absurd.  If we suspect abuse in the automatedl4 process, there is so much more opportunity for abuse in this manual process.d  = >And each voting slip that they uncover that was miss counteds@ >or discarded incorrectly is one more voter who would otherwise : >have been disenfranchised because of inedequacies in the  >voting process.  = That would be the claim, I suppose.  I don't think it's clear  that it's true.  s   >h> >Because of this it is difficult to see how Bushes position is? >other than anti-democratic because each count that his lawyersh5 >get stopped means more voters being disenfranchised.  >e= >This is what I ment when I said that the democratic process    >appears to be being subverted.  > E >It is also difficult to see how the 17:00 deadline can be justified,aD >it was introduced to ensure that results were submitted in a timelyH >fashion but it was not designed to cope with an abnormal situation like >the sE >one today with a very close vote and big questions about the layout -< >of ballot papers etc, abnormal number of spoilt papers etc. >P  C The 17:00 deadline is statutory, it is law.  The Secretary of State8D claims she has no discretion.  The history of such deadlines is thatA they are to prevent local authorities having much opportunity to  G manipulate the ballots and records to favor one candidate over another.mB In particular, there used to be a practice where local party hacksC would wait until they heard the results statewide and somehow theiry@ local totals would be adjusted accordingly to aid their desired B result.  It certainly could be claimed that recount after recount,B without set standards on ballots that are not meant to be manuallyB recounted is exactly an example of the local authorities trying to0 manipulate the ballots to gain a desired result.  I >To an outsider it looks very much as if the Bush campaign are attemptingsF >to win the election on a technicality which ignores the wishes of the >majority of the people. >rD >Now this may not be true but the only way out of this for the Bush A >campaign is to agree to a full recount for the whole of Florida.t >  >e: >> As James Baker said, "machines are neither Democrat nor: >> Republican".  The point being that a machine recount of? >> ballots that are designed to be machine read (not manually), # >> is the only reasonable standard.. >> e >aD >Again this is not defensible on the evidence of the manual recountsC >so far which show that for what ever reasons (design of the ballotr >paperslE >etc) that in effect the machines are biased towards the Republicans  @ >because the manual recounts have shown up more papers for Gore  >than for Bush.h >l  C Your interpretation of the results of the manual recounts performed- so far excludes tampering.  = Volusia County, who completed their recount, use a completelypF different technology.  They use paper ballots marked with a pen/pencilE that are machine read.  In this county, the machine reads your balloteD at the polling place and returns it to you to allow you to submit a @ corrected ballot if there is a problem.  Their automated recount< turned up no more votes for Gore and no more votes for Bush.  > Somehow, when the manual recount was performed, some 241 votes? were lost for Bush and some 143 votes were lost for Gore.  Now, = where did those ballots go?  This rereading of the ballots byT< hand has produced a result that are all out of proportion toA the ratios for the candidates in that county (53% Gore, 45% Bush  E  - the ratio of the lost or rejected ballots was 63% Bush, 37% Gore).h< The machine count which was performed twice, presumably withC different machines as the original count was done at the precincts.a  A At some point you have to ask who is really being disenfranchisede here.e  A >Now I know that more papers for Gore are likely to surface in a vB >Democratic area than a Republican area but this does not explain ? >the abnormally high number of rejected ballots in some of the e >areas.o >r >Regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   -Jordan Hendersons jordan@greenapple.coms   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 18:17:33 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)' Subject: Re: Technology of US Elections . Message-ID: <8uujvt$2io$1@info.service.rug.nl>  ? In article <bMQSOvUIN9W3jhN2WI0V3GFet8x7@4ax.com>, David Beatty & <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com> writes:    > <BIG SNIP> > >FI > >It is clear that they are not bound.  True, bad, but perhaps one evil 0 > >can combat another. > >aK > >If Bush barely scrapes in, and the popular vote is still overwhelmingly DL > >in favour of Gore, and only 1 or 2 electors need to swing over, I'm sure 4 > >they will.  They will become Heroes of Democracy. > D > I don't think I would call 200,000 out of 100 million votes (0.2%) > overwhelming.a   You have to divide by 288.  :-)   7 > Besides, the U.S. government is not a democracy; it'sh > a federal republic.s  A There is not necessarily a conflict---although I admit what just  G occurred to me was "German Democratic Republic" (former East Germany), i probably not a good example.  H > >I'm sure Nader is waiting in the wings to subject the election ritual" > >the same treatment he gave GM.  >  > That's a scary thought ...  E "Unfair at any count" might be a good title.  What's bad for General n Motors is bad for the country.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:18:03 +0100u/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>BA Subject: re: Re: Technology of US elections x Brazilian elections 6 Message-ID: <009F328E.F2F18459.7@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>   > N > In article <OF95970324.F3BACBF4-ON03256996.00637698@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,. >  fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:J > |> We had elections in my country this year, 100% using electronic vote, > |> with no fraud and etc ... > * > And how could you possibly verify this??8 > I'll bet the guy who lost doesn't share your optomism. >  > bill > K Not hard, actually. Go to polling station, collect one-shot permit to vote.aL Go into booth equipped with permit reader, touch-screen, and printer. InsertO permit. Touch screen to select, again to commit vote. Printer prints two balloteK returns: a receipt for you, and one for the ballot box. Leave booth, inserti return into box. t  N In most elections the computer's counts, when added, will determine the resultH within a few minutes of polls closing. In a close situation, or if it isM alleged that the computers were hacked, count the paper returns. (Since theseuJ are all printed wirh a single name rather than ramdomly mangled by humans,H this is an awful lot easier to do. And the voter can see exactly who hisN vote is for printed on what he sticks in the box, so complains that the system# was confusing are hard to imagine).t  I In fact, perhaps the upgraded polling booths could be paid for by the USAhF broadcast networks, since they'd get the most benefit from instant and accurate returns!h  I I still prefer old-fashioned paper ballot with handwritten X, though. May E be slower, but the hardest system to dispute. Can be speeded up usingc' document scanners for initial counting.u   	Yours,a
 		Nigel Arnotd- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   s  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."e   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 14:25:06 GMT8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)A Subject: re: Re: Technology of US elections x Brazilian elections 6 Message-ID: <8uu6c2$alt$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>  h In article <009F328E.F2F18459.7@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>, Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> writes:  J >I still prefer old-fashioned paper ballot with handwritten X, though. MayF >be slower, but the hardest system to dispute. Can be speeded up using( >document scanners for initial counting.   You are correct.  > You have also described a system that has a reasonable cost to implement and operate.  D But this does not solve the present dilema.  We know that the systemJ has errors; we do NOT know how to correct those errors with any reasonableE certainty that the corrections will be a better representation of the$I "will of the people".  Hence, we should live with the machine [re]counts.s  " Other opinions can/will/do differ.   -- sK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAsF          (hammond@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:13:53 GMT* From: helbig@astro.rug.nl (Phillip Helbig)A Subject: re: Re: Technology of US elections x Brazilian electionse- Message-ID: <8uuco1$5p$4@info.service.rug.nl>n  6 In article <8uu6c2$alt$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com>,; hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) writes: f  L > >I still prefer old-fashioned paper ballot with handwritten X, though. MayH > >be slower, but the hardest system to dispute. Can be speeded up using* > >document scanners for initial counting. >  > You are correct. > F > But this does not solve the present dilema.  We know that the systemL > has errors; we do NOT know how to correct those errors with any reasonableG > certainty that the corrections will be a better representation of thesK > "will of the people".  Hence, we should live with the machine [re]counts.t  F In Germany, all ballots, as far as I know, are with the handwritten X I and are counted by hand.  There are, err, checks and balances and I have t& never heard of any sort of complaints.  H What have we heard recently: politicians maneuvering to make things come= out in their favour, "lost" ballot boxes showing up, unopenedsI (allegedly), days later, people with vested interests calling the shots, uG inaccuracy in counting---and all on top of a system which is so unfair gI that it is the laughing stock of the world.  Now, in some South American ,H country, this would be no surprise.  There was an interesting editorial ? in a Congo newspaper, to the tune of "YOU tell US what to do?".s  H Imagine if, say, Milosovic said:  Now, we have democracy.  But we don't H believe in one person, one vote.  And Serbia will get 80% of the voting F power even though it has only 50% of the population.  And if you just I get 51% of that 80%, you get it all.  And we'll have a two-party system,  E since the people aren't ready for the big step from a one-party to a eG many-party system.  Even if he modelled it exactly on the U.S. system, t3 he would make a complete laughing stock of himself.i   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2000.639 ************************