1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 24 May 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 285       Contents:7 Re: A Toughie: Debugging a symbiont under DECwindows...  Alpha Hobbyist kits  Re: Alpha Hobbyist kits 3 Re: An escape sequence for PF4 in an expect script. 1 Re: DECUS Amsterdam (anonymous) pictures are here H Re: DECUS Lyon 2002 (was: DECUS Amsterdam (anonymous) pictures are here)P Re: DECUS Lyon 2002 (was: DECUS Amsterdam (anonymous) pictures are here) here)he. Re: Drivers and Utilities for Digital printers Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME  Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME + hanging UCX sessions, expert help required. 4 Re: HELP, how to put numbers in the virtual display?4 Re: HELP, how to put numbers in the virtual display?4 Re: HELP, how to put numbers in the virtual display?6 Re: HP equal on UNIX, Windows, Linux middleware - VMS?6 Re: HP equal on UNIX, Windows, Linux middleware - VMS?
 Re: HTTP POST 
 Re: HTTP POST 
 Re: HTTP POST C Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ... C Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ... P Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...   Shape up oP Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...  Shape up orP Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...  Shape up orP Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ... Shape up or P Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ... Shape up or / NT: son of VMS? (was Re: Portents of VMS death) 3 Re: NT: son of VMS? (was Re: Portents of VMS death)  OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits  Re: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits  Re: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits / Re: OpenVMS Pearl 2of2 In a Galaxy far far away  Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Overclocking VAXen Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Reading an ASCII File 
 rtr web admin + Re: system fan failure in Alphaserver 4100.  USP going away.  Re: USP going away.  Re: USP going away. ( Re: WebServices / SOAP / C++ / DECPASCAL  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:02:53 -0500 $ From: Lyle West <arf@ourtownusa.org>@ Subject: Re: A Toughie: Debugging a symbiont under DECwindows.... Message-ID: <3ECE624D.741800D8@ourtownusa.org>  f > In article <bdc65a53.0305230421.4b510d0b@posting.google.com>, gspamtackett@yahoo.com (Galen) writes:+ > > ...when the VMS V7.3-1 workstation has:  > > ? > >    1) Only one head, and no more available to be connected;   > >    2) No network connection;2 > >    3) No serial terminal available to hook up. > > C > > The debugger manual says you can't use a DECwindows display for @ > > debugging a detached process, so I guess I can't just define. > > DBG$DECW$DISPLAY (though I haven't tried). > J >    Look again.  Somewhere there's a technique for attaching the debuggerF >    to an unused DECterm.  Although the X11 version of DEBUG is a lotD >    better now than the original ship, I still find the full screen; >    character terminal interface to be much easier to use.   9 You can try this, I haven't used it for several years....    --E $! XDEBUG.COM - create standalone debug window for Motif environment. = $!          Banner indicates calling display  31-Oct-1992 lww  $ 4 $    termdev = f$extract(0,2,f$getjpi(0,"terminal"))$ $    if termdev .nes. "FT" then exit $!   pagelen = 48 ( $    pagelen = 44   ! Fdc 100dpi display $    IF P1 .nes. "" 
 $     THEN8 $       if f$type(P1) .eqs. "INTEGER" then pagelen = 'P1
 $    ENDIFA $    write sys$output " Creating a ''pagelen' line DEBUG window " " $    temp = f$getjpi(0,"terminal")/ $    from  = f$edit(temp, "LOWERCASE,COLLAPSE") / $    dbgterm = f$trnlnm("dbg$output","lnm$job")  $    IF dbgterm .nes. ""
 $     THEN@ $       write sys$output "CDB-E-ALLOC, ''from' already allocated ''dbgterm' " +         "for CBD Window" $       write sys$output " " $       exit
 $    ENDIF9 $    thisnode = f$extract(1,8,f$logical("sys$node"))-"::" " $    cap = f$extract(0,1,thisnode)4 $    body = f$extract(1,f$length(thisnode),thisnode)$ $    body = f$edit(body,"lowercase") $    thisnode = cap+body# $    IF DECW$DISPLAY_NODE .eqs. "0" / $     THEN banner = "Debug Window from ''from'" < $     ELSE banner = "Debug Window from ''thisnode'::''from'"
 $    ENDIF- $    define/nolog dbg$init lww$only:setup.dbg  $!   set display/create G $    create/terminal/define=(table=lnm$job,dbg$input,dbg$output)/noproc  - F           /window=(initial=icon,rows='pagelen,x=240,y=20,icon="Cdb", -           title="''banner'")? $    if f$trnlnm("dbg$output","lnm$job").eqs."" then goto NO_GO $ $    define/job dbg$decw$display " " $    allocate dbg$output# $    set term/insert/line dbg$input 	 $    exit  $NO_GO: : $    write sys$output "Cannot create DecTerm Debug Window"	 $    exit    --     Lyle W. West  > Try ell with three dubya's and at with mninter arf net and use dot rather than arf  __   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:16:30 GMT 4 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: Alpha Hobbyist kits. Message-ID: <Ocwza.698748$OV.650766@rwcrnsc54>   Folks,  . I just visited http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/  M and it looks as though the new Alpha kits are available.  I just ordered one.   A _________________________________________________________________ 0 Bradford J. Hamilton			"All opinions are my own"/ bMradAhamiPltSon@atMtAbi.cPoSm		"Lose the MAPS"    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:40:19 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>   Subject: Re: Alpha Hobbyist kits( Message-ID: <3ECEBF73.4010301@rdrop.com>   Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:   0 > I just visited http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/ > C > and it looks as though the new Alpha kits are available.  I just   > ordered one.  : More directly, http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html  * (After I've ordered *mine*, of course! ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:21:22 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>< Subject: Re: An escape sequence for PF4 in an expect script.) Message-ID: <3ECEC90F.128CAF62@istop.com>    Jason Brady wrote:G > Because PF keys fall into the keypad grouping you use ESC [ O or SS3:  >  > Key        7-bit        8-bit   > PF1      ESC [ O P     SS3 + P  > PF2      ESC [ O Q     SS3 + Q  > PF3      ESC [ O R     SS3 + R  > PF4      ESC [ O S     SS3 + S   Actially, SS3 is ESC O.      So PF1 is ESC O P    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:05:15 +0200 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>: Subject: Re: DECUS Amsterdam (anonymous) pictures are here' Message-ID: <3ECE8D0B.2030603@spam.com>    norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: / > They lack your very important captions  ;-) .   	 Caption ? J 1 n (a) (Press) (heading) sous-titre m; (under illustration) l=E9gende f;=        (b) (Cine) sous-titre m. B 2 vt illustration f; mettre une l=E9gende =E0; (cine) sous-titrer.< (n =3D nom (name), vt =3D verbe transitif (transitive verb))   Ah, l=E9gende !  Ok.  :-)   J Let me terminate showmethatpicture.com and the menu will allow each pictu= re to=20 be "captioned"   D.  " "Happiness is learning a new word"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:49:48 +0200 + From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> Q Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon 2002 (was: DECUS Amsterdam (anonymous) pictures are here) 5 Message-ID: <balu0v$19hd3$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   9 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> schreef in bericht " news:3ECD25CC.E9EBBB0@istop.com... > Hans Vlems wrote: J > > Magic sessions. Didier, you''ve got to agree that Amsterdam 2003 was a > > mistake and a failure. > I > Funny, when I read that they had 900 attendees, my first impression was  "wow,  > that is a lot of people".  > J > When you say it was a failure, is it because of attendance, or content ? > L > If someone were wintel or unix centric, would they have also considered it a  > failure ?    JF  L DECUS Europe used to attract crowds of 2000+ attendees. Even Lisbon 2001 andH Paris-la-Dfense 1998 were bigger and the latter was organized after theL "official" DECUS symposium had been canceled IIRC. Now there's no quality inF crowd size so the disappointment was caused by other things. BTW it isI embarassing to sit in a huge room and hear an HP VP ask the audience (all < ten of them): this is an interactive session, any questions? Some observations:G - very relaxed program; 15 min breaks between all sessions and 1.5 hour L reserverd for lunch. I was used to have sessions without breaks, starting atH 0900 and going on until 1800. Lunch was something of a hurry in between.H - the VMS sessions were good, content and presentation were at the usualJ high standards. But I'm at a mainframe/Windows shop these days and my bossH did not pay EUR 1k to improve my VMS knowledge. The windows and databaseD sessions were just not up to the (admittedly high) standard that VMS engineering brings. E - no "strategic" sessions. The company I work for is looking at other L alternatives to store its production database and application on, other thanH a very expensive mainframe. There was nothing that came close to the old management SIG sessions.E - the exhibition was a far cry from DECville. I liked the I64 and AXP  cluster though. K - very little in terms of networking. I especially missed network hardware, E presentation and equipment on display. OK HP had one 5300 switch well J hidden, but it was there. Of course Yannick Pouffary did her talks on IPv4- and IPv6, but that is VMS and Tru64 oriented.   E So I was by no means sad that I had to miss the third day. Other than " Terry's closing session of course.   Hans   Where were the coffee mugs?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:54:19 +0200 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>Y Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon 2002 (was: DECUS Amsterdam (anonymous) pictures are here) here)he ' Message-ID: <3ECE8A7B.5020208@spam.com>    Hans Vlems wrote:  ../.. G > So I was by no means sad that I had to miss the third day. Other than $ > Terry's closing session of course.  8 m*rd*, I was going to ask you to post the Day #3 report.   :-(    D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:32:40 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>7 Subject: Re: Drivers and Utilities for Digital printers 5 Message-ID: <230520031719307761%paul.anderson@hp.com>   1 In article <3ECD5F64.F1820A2@istop.com>, JF Mezei " <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:   > Paul Anderson wrote:( > > NPmanage worked on Macs quite well,  >  > I have a mac !  6 A version of NPmanage is on its way to you via e-mail. > & > > for Windows.  Nssetup ran on Unix. > 9 > Is there a reason they never produced nssetup for VMS ?   ? It has never been easy to configure IP on the 3500 or 5100; the F attention for OpenVMS was still on LAT in those days.  The hodge-podgeG of different programs used to configure those printers was always a bit D of a pain.  I can't say why a more elegant solution was not created.  F > Is there some postscript way to set the printer's features (like the@ > ones documented to set the name and password for the printer).  = There's no PostScript way to set the network characteristics.    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:31:45 +0100 ) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME$ Message-ID: <3ECE7721.70903@iee.org>   Chris Olive wrote:E > Good grief.  The local power company must LOVE you, dude.  Are you  F > actually running 3-phase in your home????!!?  This makes my 10-node + > network at home look like a starter pack.   : But none of those systems need 3-phase ... the 750 is only7 big if you actually try to lift it. A 780 is so big you - would not even think of trying to lift it :-)    Antonio    --   --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:01:29 +0200 + From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME5 Message-ID: <balums$18d58$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   6 "Chris Olive" <nospam@raytheon.com> schreef in bericht8 news:ekcza.3380$c6.3124@bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com... > Lord Isildur wrote: 1 > > some pics of some of the gear can be found at 3 > > http://www.vaxpower.org/~isildur/computers.html 1 > > No pics of the 730, but a couple of the 750s. C > > The 730 has already been claimed (though not finalized), as has  > > one of the 750s! :)  > >  > > happy hacking, > > isildur  > J > Not only did Isildur not throw the One Ring back into the fiery mountainI > of doom, he couldn't bear to ever part with a machine that he came into J > possession of as well... 8-)  (Until now, ergo this posting to c.o.v...) > D > Good grief.  The local power company must LOVE you, dude.  Are youE > actually running 3-phase in your home????!!?  This makes my 10-node + > network at home look like a starter pack.  >  > Chris   K Exactly what I was thinking when I saw what hardware that guy is running at J home. And unless he lives in a *very* cold climate his electricity bill isK even higher owing to the massive airco units needed to keep his house below  50 Celsius :-)   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:08:21 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME; Message-ID: <01KW8VXSPEUKAKVGCS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   F > > Good grief.  The local power company must LOVE you, dude.  Are youG > > actually running 3-phase in your home????!!?  This makes my 10-node - > > network at home look like a starter pack.  > M > Exactly what I was thinking when I saw what hardware that guy is running at L > home. And unless he lives in a *very* cold climate his electricity bill isM > even higher owing to the massive airco units needed to keep his house below  > 50 Celsius :-)  C There was a news story recently about how Microsoft did or did not  B seriously consider an i-loo (or was it e-loo), i.e. a toilet with H internet access.  (Apparently it WAS a serious idea from a UK employee, D there was a press release, then the U.S. office first demented then 9 admitted that they had canned (no pun intended) the idea.   A Perhaps a better idea would be a sauna with the heat provided by  H |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| equipment.  (I actually did think of installing a sauna G in my attic, then made it into the machine room; if I shut the windows  7 in the summer when everything is on, it DOES get warm.)    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:41:33 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOMEH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231640130.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  D indeed, i have several people on standby waiting in case the primaryG claimants fall through or dont come get the machines. i stripped one of F them down last night in preparation for a fellow coming saturday.. and8 both people taking the machines plan on running them :-)   isildur   3 On Wed, 21 May 2003 VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   x > In article <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305202245350.9086@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>, Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> writes: > > 0 > >some pics of some of the gear can be found at2 > >http://www.vaxpower.org/~isildur/computers.html0 > >No pics of the 730, but a couple of the 750s.B > >The 730 has already been claimed (though not finalized), as has > >one of the 750s! :) > M > Vance built a bar out of a VAX 11/780.  If your 11/750 was in good cosmetic M > shape, I was considering using it to cover my keg cooler in a similar vein. N > However, since it seems that you have folks actually interested in these oldM > bits (in their entirety), I'd hope that you'd offer your kit to them first. L > If you don't find a better home for the 11/750, do let me know.  Mmm beer. >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > 6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:29:05 -0500 ' From: Chris Olive <nospam@raytheon.com>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME> Message-ID: <fwvza.3388$c6.3233@bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com>   Antonio Carlini wrote: > Chris Olive wrote: > F >> Good grief.  The local power company must LOVE you, dude.  Are you G >> actually running 3-phase in your home????!!?  This makes my 10-node  , >> network at home look like a starter pack. >  > < > But none of those systems need 3-phase ... the 750 is only9 > big if you actually try to lift it. A 780 is so big you / > would not even think of trying to lift it :-)  > 	 > Antonio  >  > --   >  > --------------- / > Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org  >   3 Huh... could have sworn a 750 ran on 3-phase... 8-/    Chris  -----  Chris Olive  Systems Consultant' Raytheon Technical Services Corporation  Indianapolis, IN  * email: olivec(AT)indy(DOT)raytheon(DOT)com   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:53:18 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOMEH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231642030.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  B hehehe the only hardware i have that uses 3-phase is the vax 6000.C ive never run it, since i have the guts of one, but no cabinet, and = i never did the sinlge phase conversion. Others have, though.   F my power bill isn't too high. i dont actually _run_ most of this gear.F At the height, when vaxpower.org was hosted on machines at home, i hadM a DECstation, 2 VT320s, a VT420, a vax 4k/600, an alpha 3000/600, and lots of M disks running public access 24 hours a day, and occasionally had a vaxstation F 4k60 and a microvax-3 up a lot, too.. when i was hacking 4.3bsd to runH on the 4k/600, i did builds on the uvax-3, ftp'ed kernels or boot blocksH to a vs3100/48 that was sharing its second scsi bus with a CMD cqd443 onH the 4600, and write test code to the dual-homed disk to try booting fromM on the 4600... avoided power cycling and hardware rearrangement that way.. :)   I But yeah, i never intended to accumulate this much stuff.. just you know, I you see a vax sitting on a loading dock, or in the hall being thrown out, H you take it home.. you see a vax 200 miles away being junked, you rent a truck and bring it home *grin*K I'm planning on moving in th enext year or so, and i dont want to take huge I amounts of stuff with me. All the computers heavier than i can carry with G ease are going away. Some i've put on sort of permanent loan to the cmu A computer club.. the bulk of it just went out on the list you saw, I some more of it is being sold (notably the lisp machine, since i actually N bought that), and im looking to trade the 4000/600 for a 3100/9[56] or a 4105A# with similar specs (128 MB, SCSI).. G In the winter, i dont mind keeping more machines on- i pay for the heat 2 either on the gas bill or the electric bill hehehe   Isildur   ' On Thu, 22 May 2003, Chris Olive wrote: J > Not only did Isildur not throw the One Ring back into the fiery mountainI > of doom, he couldn't bear to ever part with a machine that he came into J > possession of as well... 8-)  (Until now, ergo this posting to c.o.v...) > D > Good grief.  The local power company must LOVE you, dude.  Are youE > actually running 3-phase in your home????!!?  This makes my 10-node + > network at home look like a starter pack.  >  > Chris  > ----- 
 > Chris Olive  > Systems Consultant) > Raytheon Technical Services Corporation  > Indianapolis, IN > , > email: olivec(AT)indy(DOT)raytheon(DOT)com >  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:56:51 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOMEH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231654130.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  A in the winter, when i leave the living room (the machine room) to ? some other part of the house, i immediately feel the chill, and C when i return to the machine room, i am bathed in the warmth of all L thos excess VAX BTU's.. no air conditioner though. right now, the only stuffL running is a decstation (the X terminal basically) and an alpha 433au with a vt420 on its console.    happy hacking, isildur   & On Fri, 23 May 2003, Hans Vlems wrote:M > Exactly what I was thinking when I saw what hardware that guy is running at L > home. And unless he lives in a *very* cold climate his electricity bill isM > even higher owing to the massive airco units needed to keep his house below  > 50 Celsius :-) >    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:10:09 +0000 (UTC) . From: dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)  Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME. Message-ID: <bam2nh$dm$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>  H In article <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231657150.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>,- Lord Isildur  <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:  > E >now, start spinning up some ra81s.. then the real power draw starts!  >   L   Yeah; I blew a fuse in my apartment spinning up the RA80 that came with my> PDP-11.  I gave it away after that (the RA80, not the PDP-11).   --  M David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca M Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ M University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer M Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:58:55 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOMEH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231657150.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  D nope.. 115v single phase.. it makes a lot of noise but it doesnt use that much power.. about 600 W.  D now, start spinning up some ra81s.. then the real power draw starts!   isildur     ' On Fri, 23 May 2003, Chris Olive wrote:  > 5 > Huh... could have sworn a 750 ran on 3-phase... 8-/    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 02:44:53 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)   Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME( Message-ID: <bammb5$1o2$1@pcls4.std.com>  ) Chris Olive <nospam@raytheon.com> writes:   4 >Huh... could have sworn a 750 ran on 3-phase... 8-/  H Not the 750 itself, but some old disk drives of that era apparently did.D A long-time Deccie was telling me just today about these drives with> three phase drive motors.. wouldn't even spin on single phase.  C One model was smart enough to not spin if the phasing was reversed, F the other would spin _backwards_ (but was smart enough not to load the' heads). Forget which drives those were.   F DEC always overbuilt everything power-related in those days.  ProbablyF lots of 750s came with 3 phase 30+A power cords even though they couldE actually be powered off a single phase 15A home circuit.  Look in the F old hardware, most of those mega power feeds went to a controller withG a bunch of ordinary single phase outlets, and all the subcomponents of  - the computer were plugged into those outlets.    -Mike    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:31:59 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>  Subject: Re: FREE TO A GOOD HOME) Message-ID: <3ECEE7A3.B7B84713@istop.com>    Michael Moroney wrote:? > DEC always overbuilt everything power-related in those days.    W Agreed. However, just because they used the L530-R receptacle didn't make them 3-phase.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 17:29:18 -0700+ From: freestyle_london@yahoo.co.uk (Andrew) 4 Subject: hanging UCX sessions, expert help required.< Message-ID: <88f6adbc.0305231629.a848d7a@posting.google.com>  D I am the network manager of our company. We have limited VMS supportE onsite, as the main admin work on the VMS boxes is oracle/application  based.  + We have a problem with 2 servers currently.   ? Both run VMS 7.1-2 with the most recent version of UCX with ECO F applied. We are planning a program to move to the new VMS and TCP/IP 5D soon ! before anyone asks, but I need a fix for our current systems.F We are in contact with compaq... sorry HP but so far we are being told we are having network problems.    Here is the Scenario  F 2 telnet sessions running and loggged in. We type is a command that is@ specific to our application so I'll not mention it here, and theF response from that hangs. At the same time we cannot establish any newB telnet/FTP sessions or can the server print using Jetdirect to ourF many printers onsite. But the any exiting FTP/Telnet sessions continue to work normally !!   F Help a network guy pass it back to our VMS people who keep blamming my	 network !    ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 12:46:39 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org= Subject: Re: HELP, how to put numbers in the virtual display? 3 Message-ID: <6OoQ2rKfVloE@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <baljgr$l5k$1@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>, "Jeams ZHI" <chnzw@hotmail.com> writes: J > i have saved my data in the variable DATA(for example, 2000), but it's a' > number, how to display it on screen ?   . In my language of choice, the syntax would be:   	TYPE *, DATA(2000)   F But, if we are to trust the subject line, then perhaps you are talkingF about the SMG interface, writing a numeric value to a virtual display.   $ HELP RTL SMG$ SMG$PUT_CHARS    RTL_ROUTINES     SMG$       SMG$PUT_CHARS   A          The Write Characters to a Virtual Display routine writes C          characters in a virtual display with the text you specify.             Format   7            SMG$PUT_CHARS  display-id ,text [,start-row]   C                           [,start-column] [,flags] [,rendition-set]   B                           [,rendition-complement] [,character-set]  E In my language of choice, the feature that I would use for converting 0 numeric to text is the formatted internal write:   	integer	data / 2000 / 	character *6	data_text   ! 	write ( data_text, '(i6)' ) data   > If your language provides no capability for converting numericF variables into text strings then you can use SYS$FAO for that purpose:   $ HELP SYSTEM $FAO   System_Services      $FAO  @        Converts a binary value into an ASCII character string inE        decimal, hexadecimal, or octal notation; returns the character H        string in an output string; and inserts variable character-string"        data into an output string.  E        The Formatted ASCII Output with List Parameter ($FAOL) service H        provides an alternate method for specifying input parameters when'        calling the $FAO system service.     ?        On Alpha systems, this service accepts 64-bit addresses.   
        Format   7          SYS$FAO  ctrstr ,[outlen] ,outbuf ,[p1]...[pn]     : Another way to go is with legacy routines:  LIB$SET_CURSORE to move the cursor into position then some kind of cursor-unaffecting  language-specific write.  ( In my language of choice, that would be:   	CALL LIB$SET_CURSOR ( 8, 8 ) # 	WRITE ( 6, '(''+'', I6, $)' ) DATA    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:15:47 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>= Subject: Re: HELP, how to put numbers in the virtual display? ) Message-ID: <3ECE8173.7050506@vajhoej.dk>    Bob Koehler wrote:] > In article <baljgr$l5k$1@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>, "Jeams ZHI" <chnzw@hotmail.com> writes: J >>i have saved my data in the variable DATA(for example, 2000), but it's a' >>number, how to display it on screen ?  >  >    DEBUG comes to mind.  >   >    Do you know how to program?   Did you read the subject line ?    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 02:06:29 +0200 % From: "Jeams ZHI" <chnzw@hotmail.com> = Subject: Re: HELP, how to put numbers in the virtual display? 3 Message-ID: <bamd23$q7j$1@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>   ' <briggs@encompasserve.org> дϢ ) :6OoQ2rKfVloE@eisner.encompasserve.org... A > In article <baljgr$l5k$1@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>, "Jeams ZHI"  <chnzw@hotmail.com> writes: L > > i have saved my data in the variable DATA(for example, 2000), but it's a) > > number, how to display it on screen ?  > 0 > In my language of choice, the syntax would be: >  > TYPE *, DATA(2000) > H > But, if we are to trust the subject line, then perhaps you are talkingH > about the SMG interface, writing a numeric value to a virtual display. >  > $ HELP RTL SMG$ SMG$PUT_CHARS  >  > RTL_ROUTINES >  >   SMG$ >  >     SMG$PUT_CHARS  > C >          The Write Characters to a Virtual Display routine writes E >          characters in a virtual display with the text you specify.  >  >          Format  > 9 >            SMG$PUT_CHARS  display-id ,text [,start-row]  > E >                           [,start-column] [,flags] [,rendition-set]  > D >                           [,rendition-complement] [,character-set] > G > In my language of choice, the feature that I would use for converting 2 > numeric to text is the formatted internal write: >  > integer data / 2000 /  > character *6 data_text > " > write ( data_text, '(i6)' ) data > @ > If your language provides no capability for converting numericH > variables into text strings then you can use SYS$FAO for that purpose: >  > $ HELP SYSTEM $FAO >  > System_Services  >  >   $FAO > B >        Converts a binary value into an ASCII character string inG >        decimal, hexadecimal, or octal notation; returns the character J >        string in an output string; and inserts variable character-string$ >        data into an output string. > G >        The Formatted ASCII Output with List Parameter ($FAOL) service J >        provides an alternate method for specifying input parameters when) >        calling the $FAO system service.  >  > A >        On Alpha systems, this service accepts 64-bit addresses.  >  >        Format  > 9 >          SYS$FAO  ctrstr ,[outlen] ,outbuf ,[p1]...[pn]  >  > < > Another way to go is with legacy routines:  LIB$SET_CURSORG > to move the cursor into position then some kind of cursor-unaffecting  > language-specific write. > * > In my language of choice, that would be: >  > CALL LIB$SET_CURSOR ( 8, 8 )$ > WRITE ( 6, '(''+'', I6, $)' ) DATA    * but i want to use VAX Macro, how to do it?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:50:16 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>? Subject: Re: HP equal on UNIX, Windows, Linux middleware - VMS? 2 Message-ID: <DCydnQJHY8BcwlOjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>  ? "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii_google_spam@yahoo.com> wrote in message 7 news:77555df7.0305230722.41e9f0f8@posting.google.com... K > http://www.hpmiddleware.com/SaISAPI.dll/SaServletEngine.class/default.jsp  > E > The new HP will be equally strong on UNIX, Windows and Linux-based C > servers, requiring middleware solutions to support all platforms.  >  > Where's the VMS in this?  L They've apparently just taken the philosophy that the 'open' in 'openvms' is& silent and 'embraced and extended' it.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:14:23 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>? Subject: Re: HP equal on UNIX, Windows, Linux middleware - VMS? ) Message-ID: <3ECE811F.9000208@vajhoej.dk>    C.W.Holeman II wrote: K > http://www.hpmiddleware.com/SaISAPI.dll/SaServletEngine.class/default.jsp  > F > 	The new HP will be equally strong on UNIX, Windows and Linux-basedD > 	servers, requiring middleware solutions to support all platforms. >  > Where's the VMS in this?   They did not mention VMS.   & But if you cut all the crap the bottom/ line is that HP dumped Blustone which was never 4 available for VMS and are now going for BEA WebLogic which is available for VMS.    Which is not bad for VMS.   4 Please note that apperently "HP Middleware" does notC mean "middleware products from HP" but "the Bluestone product" see  P http://www.hpmiddleware.com/SaISAPI.dll/SaServletEngine.class/about/default.jsp  !    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:29:21 +0200h6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: HTTP POST) Message-ID: <3ECE6881.7010705@vajhoej.dk>    dana l conroy wrote:B > I've gotten some great info from this group without ever having E > to post anything (thanks all), but now I need to delurk to ask for v
 > assistance.e > C > I'd like to send simple HTTP POST requests from an Alpha running  O > OpenVMS 7.3-1 and MultiNet 4.4.  Through this group I was able to locate the eE > source for Arne Vajhj's POSTACTION.C (thanks Arne!).  However, my MH > programming skills don't go much beyond DCL, and I don't yet have a C  > compiler on the Alpha. > L > Would anyone be willing to share the mods needed to run POSTACTION on VMS  > 7.3-1 and MultiNet 4.4?s   That code is old.a   7 years.  8 It was written for UCX alias Digitak TCP/IP, but I would' have expected it to work with Multinet.     What kind of errors do you get ?   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 13:03:49 -0700 From: dana@theworld.com (dana) Subject: Re: HTTP POST= Message-ID: <69ef1324.0305231203.2f44c28b@posting.google.com>o  + JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:V  D > > I'd like to send simple HTTP POST requests from an Alpha running$ > > OpenVMS 7.3-1 and MultiNet 4.4.  > . > You can use kermit, here is a smaple script.  B Thanks - this tip worked great!  I just needed to download a newerA version of Kermit and change the CONNECT statement to a couple ofr@ INPUT statements (to allow my command procedure to work in batch mode).   Dana   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 15:10:06 -05004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) Subject: Re: HTTP POST3 Message-ID: <h93w1U+vgzOp@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  R In article <bah1f2$n10$1@pcls4.std.com>, dana l conroy <dana@TheWorld.com> writes:B > I've gotten some great info from this group without ever having E > to post anything (thanks all), but now I need to delurk to ask for V
 > assistance.l > C > I'd like to send simple HTTP POST requests from an Alpha running  O > OpenVMS 7.3-1 and MultiNet 4.4.  Through this group I was able to locate the eE > source for Arne Vajhj's POSTACTION.C (thanks Arne!).  However, my MH > programming skills don't go much beyond DCL, and I don't yet have a C  > compiler on the Alpha. > L > Would anyone be willing to share the mods needed to run POSTACTION on VMS  > 7.3-1 and MultiNet 4.4?-  = You could also use cURL to do this.  I use it on V7.* Alphas - running VMS and Multinet.  :  B Check out http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=vms-zip for download
 locations.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:57:21 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>0L Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...J Message-ID: <RWvza.245782$w7k.148127@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in5 message news:WL26IJYSeuTE@eisner.encompasserve.org...u7 > In article <balabg$124mh$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>,C* bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >pB > > If one decided to stop feeding and caring for a child, how far
 would they@ > > get with the defense, "I didn't kill it, I just ignored it." >hF >    If you supported your child with the kind of money HP is spending onC >    VMS, it could eat well, attend Harvard, and have one hell of ae	 fun moneyn
 >    fund.    A But Bob, after I finish spending that amount of money on my kids, - there wouldn't be enough left for yours.  ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:57:47 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>L Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...) Message-ID: <3ECED195.562B6255@istop.com>l   Bob Koehler wrote:F >    Porting it to IA64, as I already said, along with adding COE, are >    not acts of abandonment.h  M Is there a desire to grow VMS, or just fulfil contractual obligations seen asD
 liabilities ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:13:51 -0400L* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...   Shape up o,2 Message-ID: <BvmdnQ3hDOcTbFOjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messaget# news:3ECED21D.C3DF22B3@istop.com...c > Bob Koehler wrote:E > >    To address all 4 of your points:  last numbers I saw were from( Compaq.hI > >    They were seeing a small increase in VMS sales, with a significant  part> > >    of that to new customers who had never used VMS before. >gL > Were those numbers just after teh short lived "renaissance" ? Or were theyI > post June 25 2001 ? Or post Sept 7 2001 when HP annoucned it was buyingt Compaq ? >tK > Seems to me that ever since Compaq murdered Alpha, numbers on VMS , which  wereL > nearly impossible to get before, became totally absent after June 25 2001. Ai > lot has happened since then.  L Revenue numbers for VMS systems were not that difficult to find prior to theL Alphacide:  they were reported in a March, 2001 Compaq slide presentation toK be $4 billion annually, I recall other statements at about the same time of I a $3.9 billion annual figure, and Rich Marcello stated them as $4 billionhG annually in June, 2000 when he met with representatives of our advocacy- group.  L The only revenue numbers I've heard since the Alphacide for VMS are about $2H billion annually (one such apparently official statement was made in theK response to the negative Gartner report in December, 2001).  My guess wouldrI be that this represents a drastic decrease in new and upgrade/replacementrG sales (duh - can't imagine why) coupled with the slower trailing-off of_L service revenues (which of course largely reflect existing installations andH thus tend only to fall off as hardware is retired and replaced with some other kind of system).  L Just to address a couple of the other questions that came up in this thread:K Back in the days before the so-called 'renaissance' my recollection is that K Terry Shannon used to say that VMS sales were pretty stable, with about 15%tK annual attrition of existing customers just about balanced by the influx ofhJ new blood.  Then during the oh-so-brief 'renaissance' overall VMS revenuesG were said to be climbing at a modest (single digit percentage annually)2K rate.  A significant increase in annual attrition coupled with loss of mostsL new VMS business would be consistent with the halving of VMS system revenuesH that seems to have occurred since the Alphacide - and while not *all* ofK that loss is necessarily directly attributable to the Alphacide the numbers H immediately preceding that day of infamy suggested that VMS and NSK wereG weathering the dot-bomb far better than the industry-standard (and evenEI Unix) products, which is hardly surprising since the latter were far morerJ the beneficiaries of the preceding boom than VMS and NSK were and thus had+ much more reason to collapse when it ended.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 12:54:33 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...  Shape up or(3 Message-ID: <fW62g$4g0e3R@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <qIqza.244330$w7k.190500@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  2 > d) What is the annual increase in new customers? > K    To address all 4 of your points:  last numbers I saw were from Compaq.  sK    They were seeing a small increase in VMS sales, with a significant part a:    of that to new customers who had never used VMS before.  D    The VMS volume is far and above the MPE volume.  If VMS ever getsA    that low, of course it will be canceled.  VMS may never be thenB    solution of choice that it was in the 80's, but the last decade@    has shown it's market to be reasonably steady with no sign of    it following MPE.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:00:32 GMTr# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>yY Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ...  Shape up orhJ Message-ID: <QZvza.245785$w7k.210702@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in5 message news:fW62g$4g0e3R@eisner.encompasserve.org...o > In articleE <qIqza.244330$w7k.190500@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "Johnb Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:d >t4 > > d) What is the annual increase in new customers? > >NC >    To address all 4 of your points:  last numbers I saw were from  Compaq.t; >    They were seeing a small increase in VMS sales, with aa significant part< >    of that to new customers who had never used VMS before. >uF >    The VMS volume is far and above the MPE volume.  If VMS ever getsC >    that low, of course it will be canceled.  VMS may never be thevD >    solution of choice that it was in the 80's, but the last decadeB >    has shown it's market to be reasonably steady with no sign of >    it following MPE.     <rhetorical>  8 So that's reason enough not to advertise and market it??  
 </rhetorical>    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:36:01 -0400a* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Y Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ... Shape up or I) Message-ID: <3ECECC7D.205D9709@istop.com>s   Nic Clews wrote:B > One of the problems as I see it, is that any positives expressedB > anywhere are quickly brushed under the carpet by the "condemningE > collective", yet wording is picked up, scrutinized as you say, then - > regurgitated as proof that the end is nigh.r  G Translation: customers don't trust what Digital/Compaq/HP say. Trust ise) difficult to earn, and very easy to lose.t  L HP screwed customers by murdering Alpha despite promises it would not do so.4 HP avoided mentioning VMS during the merger process.  M It has been nearly 2 years since the murder of Alpha. If the vendor was truly L intending on pushing and growing VMS, they woudl have taken steps to rebuildN trust. They would have taken steps to distance themselved from previous onwersG instead of stating that they would honour the previous owner's "plan of(N record" which basically means "we'll continue to screw customers and mishandle VMS just like Compaq did".  L "The retain trust" programme is the exact opposite of rebuilding trust. TheyI have to essentially bribe customers to stay on VMS because they know that M customers don't trust HP. They have to make some "commitments" to support VMS,G for X years because they know that VMS customers fear HP will kill VMS.u  C If HP had instead begun to advertise VMS, include VMS in its public0M presentations and mention VMS wheneveer carly appears on TV,  if HP had trulymN pushed/marketed the last generation of Alpha, then customers would have seen aL real change and trusted HP's intentions and HP wouldn't have its credibility problem it now has.o  = Lets not forget that HP unceremoniously killed MPE and Tru64.   L HP's accountants are probably busy with creative accounting to show that VMS> is losing money. As soon as they succeed, VMS will be history.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:00:03 -0400m* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Y Subject: Re: Letter to HP Management from OpenVMS users around the world ... Shape up or e) Message-ID: <3ECED21D.C3DF22B3@istop.com>e   Bob Koehler wrote:K >    To address all 4 of your points:  last numbers I saw were from Compaq.sL >    They were seeing a small increase in VMS sales, with a significant part< >    of that to new customers who had never used VMS before.  J Were those numbers just after teh short lived "renaissance" ? Or were theyP post June 25 2001 ? Or post Sept 7 2001 when HP annoucned it was buying Compaq ?  N Seems to me that ever since Compaq murdered Alpha, numbers on VMS , which wereM nearly impossible to get before, became totally absent after June 25 2001.  A? lot has happened since then.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:09:43 -0400e8 From: Jeff Walters <jwalters_1_nospam@no_yahoo_spam.com>8 Subject: NT: son of VMS? (was Re: Portents of VMS death)/ Message-ID: <vctojo106tjn46@corp.supernews.com>-   John Smith wrote:l   > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:KAmCz7sfQhEm@eisner.encompasserve.org...m   >> Again, Jamie says:e >>F >> "From the internals point of view there is utterly no question that > NT >> is VMS re-implemented." >> >  > C > "Based on" and *is VMS re-implemented* are two different things. -  J I've heard this topic discussed by many people for years and I'm curious: J what does it buy anyone to make the statement that NT has any relationship to VMS?   H The 2 OS's are quite different from three of the most important hands-onD perspectives:  the users, the application developers, and the systemB managers.  Not to mention the management and purchasing departmentI perspectives.  So a few OS design abstractions might look similar betweenaG them in a high-level block diagram.  The implementations are different,.I their guiding purposes and philosophies are different.  Why seek out thislK purely emotional or aesthetic connection between the two?  I don't see thati it matters.?   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2003 00:00:08 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)k< Subject: Re: NT: son of VMS? (was Re: Portents of VMS death)3 Message-ID: <3y5RB+2qy4uQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  j In article <vctojo106tjn46@corp.supernews.com>, Jeff Walters <jwalters_1_nospam@no_yahoo_spam.com> writes: > John Smith wrote:- >  >>  ; >> "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message 0 >> news:KAmCz7sfQhEm@eisner.encompasserve.org... >  >>> Again, Jamie says: >>>sG >>> "From the internals point of view there is utterly no question thatf >> NTl >>> is VMS re-implemented."y >>>u >> A >> uD >> "Based on" and *is VMS re-implemented* are two different things.  > L > I've heard this topic discussed by many people for years and I'm curious: L > what does it buy anyone to make the statement that NT has any relationship	 > to VMS?* >    	Buy?  Purchase?+ 	Do you mean gain?  What "profit" is in it?e  ; 	Well, the statement itself is true.  NT does have a strongi< 	relationship to VMS.  We shouldn't shy away from the truth.  J > The 2 OS's are quite different from three of the most important hands-onF > perspectives:  the users, the application developers, and the system
 > managers.     = 	As Jamie mentions, you are at the UI/API level.  Internally,d 	they are the same.c  e< > So a few OS design abstractions might look similar between' > them in a high-level block diagram.  d  E 	If it was "few", little point in debating.  After all, VMS has a fewn  	things in common with all OSes.  $ > The implementations are different,8 > their guiding purposes and philosophies are different.  & 	Wow, you watched Matrix Reloaded too?   >  Why seek out thisM > purely emotional or aesthetic connection between the two?  I don't see thatO
 > it matters.e  : 	Oh it certainly doesn't matter, other than helping to put= 	to bed myths.  Purely emotional?  No.  How about some facts?   Z http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1997May28.101149.7776%40cmkrnl&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain  F From the internals point of view there is utterly no question that NT  is VMS re-implemented.    0  They are not the reasons we consider NT to be a0 reimplementation of VMS at the internal level.    
 How about:  C The scheduler.  (process scheduler in VMS, thread scheduler in NT) iC 32 scheduling priorities, divided into the "real-time" (16-31) and rE "variable" (0-15) priority ranges.  identical preemption at ready by  > higher-priority threads; identical quantum and priority boost E implementations; identical CPU starvation avoidance mechanism to get  B out of priority inversion situations; a null thread for each CPU;  etc., etc.    6 Memory management.  0-7FFFFFFF is per-process, mostly C user-mode-accessible only; 80000000-FFFFFFFF is systemwide, mostly oC kernel-accessible only.  Functionally identical implementations of   paging vs. swapping. o  B I/O.  I could write a book (in fact, I am), but briefly, IRPs are E IRPs, UCBs are "device objects", CRBs are "controller objects", ADPs c= are "adapter objects", FDT routines are "dispatch routines", WG EXE$QIODRVPKT is IoStartPacket, StartIO routines are StartIO routines, -C fork routines are DPC routines, ASTs are APCs... etc., etc., etc., i etc., etc.    F Interrupt handling.  32 levels of interrupts (some simulated but this E is nevertheless the way the code is written).  IPLs on VMS, IRQLs on hG NT.  In order:  Passive level, APC (AST) Level, Dispatch (fork) level, oB then the IO hardware interrupts, then some "hardware maintenance" E functions like the hardware timer, IPI, power fail notification, and  $ HIGH_LEVEL to block all interrupts.     6 	--- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Systems, San Diego CAB         Internet: jeh@cmkrnl.com (JH645)  CompuServe: 74140,2055  O drivers, internals, networks, applications, and training for VMS and Windows NTnD NT driver FAQ, links, and other information:  http://www.cmkrnl.com/   ----  7 	Secondly, he isn't the only one to point out NT roots.s% 	Mark Russinovich does a bang up job:p  D http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?IssueID=97&ArticleID=4494  H 	This next link, is a nice overview.  Check out figure 2.  Additionally,@ 	page down and look at table 2.  It is a side by side comparison4 	of similarties.  A small snippet of Mark's article:  > http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=4494&pg=2  O  Microsoft developers wrote NT's kernel almost entirely in C. In developing NT,tK these designers rewrote VMS in C, cleaning up, tuning, tweaking, and addingrJ some new functionality and capabilities as they went. This statement is inN danger of trivializing their efforts; after all, the designers built a new APIL (i.e., Win32), a new file system (i.e., NTFS), and a new graphical interfaceC subsystem and administrative environment while maintaining backwardyN compatibility with DOS, OS/2, POSIX, and Win16. Nevertheless, the migration ofL VMS internals to NT was so thorough that within a few weeks of NT's release,5 Digital engineers noticed the striking similarities.    O Those similarities could fill a book. In fact, you can read sections of VAX/VMSrN Internals and Data Structures (Digital Press) as an accurate description of NTN internals simply by translating VMS terms to NT terms. Table 1 lists a few VMSH terms and their NT translations. Although I won't go into detail, I willM discuss some of the major similarities and differences between Windows NT 3.1oH and VMS 5.0, the last version of VMS Dave Cutler and his team might haveN influenced. This discussion assumes you have some familiarity with OS conceptsD (for background information about NT's architecture, see "Windows NTL Architecture, Part 1" March 1998 and "Windows NT Architecture, Part 2" April 1998).  
 	etc. etc.   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 14:39:38 -0700+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) $ Subject: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits= Message-ID: <e565ed03.0305231339.22fe74a8@posting.google.com>   B The OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kit V3.0 can now be ordered.  They haveH been remastered and should be available for first ship on May 28th.  The
 kit includes:            OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1          DECWindows 1.2.6 (Motif)         TCP/IP V5.3h#         DECnet Phase V and Phase IVa         Compaq C V6.5          FORTRAN 7.5w  M         Please note that this CD does not have as many titles as the previouscG CD or the OpenVMS VAX Hobbyist CD due to space contraints on the media.e  E         Of course, a big thanks to all in the OpenVMS group for their C support of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program!  At this time, the OpenVMSoB Hobbyist Program has provided over 444,000 license PAK's since the program begin on May 18, 1997.  G - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -r? David L. Cathey                      |Inet: davidc@montagar.com@: Montagar Software, Inc.              |Fone: (972)-423-5224= P. O. Box 260772, Plano, TX 75026    |http://www.montagar.com>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:42:20 -0700e% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits( Message-ID: <3ECEBFEC.6000902@rdrop.com>   David L. Cathey wrote:  D > The OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kit V3.0 can now be ordered.  They haveJ > been remastered and should be available for first ship on May 28th.  The > kit includes:a  & Thanks! That made my Friday afternoon.   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2003 03:04:45 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits+ Message-ID: <bamngd1ept@enews3.newsguy.com>e  , David L. Cathey <davidc@montagar.com> wrote:D > The OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kit V3.0 can now be ordered.  They haveJ > been remastered and should be available for first ship on May 28th.  The > kit includes:c   >         OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1" >         DECWindows 1.2.6 (Motif) >         TCP/IP V5.3e% >         DECnet Phase V and Phase IV. >         Compaq C V6.5i >         FORTRAN 7.5m  D AWSOME!  I'll be getting a copy, just for TCP/IP, and C, though I'llL seriously consider upgrading to V7.3-1 from V7.2-1H1, but only after testing! everything on a spare system :^) I  H Am I correct in assuming that DCPS isn't included in the OpenVMS kit (in0 spite of now falling under the OpenVMS license).   			Zanec   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 16:55:20 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Pearl 2of2 In a Galaxy far far away= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0305231555.6218d62c@posting.google.com>7  v susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote in message news:<857e9e41.0305230521.73338d8d@posting.google.com>... >  > Readers Comments > G > It is obvious that creativity is alive and well in AP cutomer supportu > engineers. > Ann Livermore1 > , > Loved your article!!!! You're a visionary! > Peter Mercurym  6 maybe you need to swap upper management personnel with, customer service and support engineering ...   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:16:21 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)- Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXen:( Message-ID: <bals25$vnm$1@pcls4.std.com>  - Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:F  F >       MicroVAX-32 (78032=DC333 CPU + 78132=DC337 FPU, SID=0x08, ZMOSF >       (4-type NMOS) 3.0 micron, 101k trans., 40 MHz master clock forG >       8-phase 200 nsec microcycle, used in MicroVAX II and VAXstatione  >       2000 and VAX 8200, 1985)  J >ah, so internally its only running ar 5 mhz really.. Still, with 3 micronO >process, clocking it up that high will dissipate ridiculous energy.. the boardn >uses 30 watts or so as it is..h  D >On the netbsd port-vax list there has come up a couple of times theQ >idea of doing an 11/750 in fpga's.. Several people on the list, myself included,aL >have the 750 print sets, and being that the machine was done in gate arrays> >to begin with, it would actually not be too difficult to do..  G Out of sheer curiosity, if a normal "shrink" process could be done on asG Microvax 2 chip (or better, the latest NVAX) to modern standards, about H what speed could it theoretically be clocked at, and how many VUPs couldJ it be (if paired with modern memory/cache/etc.)  The NVAX+ is of a similarE process to the EV4 Alphas (but had a max internal clock speed of onlyEF 90 MHz) and I think the NVAX5 was of the EV5 process (no idea of clock$ speed in VAX 7000/700 and 10000/700)   -Miken   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:45:23 +0100 ) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org>a Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXen-& Message-ID: <3ECE7A53.7070008@iee.org>   Lord Isildur wrote:nE > On the netbsd port-vax list there has come up a couple of times theiR > idea of doing an 11/750 in fpga's.. Several people on the list, myself included,M > have the 750 print sets, and being that the machine was done in gate arraysi? > to begin with, it would actually not be too difficult to do..   5 The printsets are on the web, but if you want to do a21 VAX, why not something more modern, like an NVAX?l  1 I'm still waiting to see the results of the PDP-8  and PDP-10 fpga efforts.   Antoniok   --   ---------------u- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orga   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:42:58 +0100 ) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org>n Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXen & Message-ID: <3ECE79C2.8040707@iee.org>   JF Mezei wrote:oG > But wasn't Digital fairly conservative with the speeds of its CPUs ?   > O > For instance, for the microvax II, would Digital have pushed the limit of the I > chip's speeds, or would it have been satisfied with a .9 VUP speed thatn) > wouldn't compete against bigger vaxes ?g  ; In the case of the uVAX II, I think the CPU ran at just the 6 right speed to match the memory interface. Maybe other8 systems could have been sped up a little. If you go back8 to the older, larger systems, such as the VAX-11/780 and4 the VAX 8600, you could run the clock up to about 5%7 faster to try and flush out marginal components. (And Is+ think you could margin the voltages too...)s   Antonioa   --     --   ---------------,- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------   Date: 23 May 2003 20:42:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXens5 Message-ID: <bam14g$19bga$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>m  ( In article <bals25$vnm$1@pcls4.std.com>,: 	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > I > Out of sheer curiosity, if a normal "shrink" process could be done on a I > Microvax 2 chip (or better, the latest NVAX) to modern standards, about J > what speed could it theoretically be clocked at, and how many VUPs could3 > it be (if paired with modern memory/cache/etc.)  [  C I've often wondered this myself but carried it one step further and,C wondered the same about the PDP-11.  And then you have to wonder ifuC you had this and they had finished the MP PDP-11 work as well.  :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   m   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:39:48 -0400 (EDT)r+ From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>  Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXen H Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231631060.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  C given that a 78032 is only 101000 transistors, if it were shrunk to A modern process, i can see it easily running at a couple gighertz.mC Given the size, the thing would only be on the order of 1mm square,yL Add a bigger L1 cache on it and you would have probably 60 VUPS in a packageA smaller than a 386. An even cooler idea might be to put, on a diebG still smaller than a modern cpu, 4 microvax cpus, a generous cache, and_H a decent (hypertransport?) interface.  the microvax-2, though, is a veryG simple design.. many of the modern tricks are absent from it.. the nvax:D was a much more clever machine, and quite fast.. a shrink of NVAX toI modern process would make it very cheap (1.3 million transistors), fit in0C a 2x3 mm die, fill it out to a 9x9 mm die with a meg of cache and aRG hypertransport interface, and you have a competetive, modern processor.7G sell it as the gigavax. of course, nowadays the biggest liability wouldnE be the tiny address space.. 2 gigabytes of physical core is small for : serious database servers now.. though such a machine wouldC certainly make for a line of pizza box vax workstations which couldcL keep anybody who still runs a vax in business for another decade (seriously,< people still run businesses on vaxstation 3100s sometimes!!)   Isildur   + On Fri, 23 May 2003, Michael Moroney wrote:h  / > Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:  >tH > >       MicroVAX-32 (78032=DC333 CPU + 78132=DC337 FPU, SID=0x08, ZMOSH > >       (4-type NMOS) 3.0 micron, 101k trans., 40 MHz master clock forI > >       8-phase 200 nsec microcycle, used in MicroVAX II and VAXstations" > >       2000 and VAX 8200, 1985) > L > >ah, so internally its only running ar 5 mhz really.. Still, with 3 micronQ > >process, clocking it up that high will dissipate ridiculous energy.. the boardx! > >uses 30 watts or so as it is..) > F > >On the netbsd port-vax list there has come up a couple of times theS > >idea of doing an 11/750 in fpga's.. Several people on the list, myself included, N > >have the 750 print sets, and being that the machine was done in gate arrays@ > >to begin with, it would actually not be too difficult to do.. >uI > Out of sheer curiosity, if a normal "shrink" process could be done on asI > Microvax 2 chip (or better, the latest NVAX) to modern standards, aboutdJ > what speed could it theoretically be clocked at, and how many VUPs couldL > it be (if paired with modern memory/cache/etc.)  The NVAX+ is of a similarG > process to the EV4 Alphas (but had a max internal clock speed of onlydH > 90 MHz) and I think the NVAX5 was of the EV5 process (no idea of clock& > speed in VAX 7000/700 and 10000/700) >6 > -Miket >    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:13:24 -0400 (EDT)t+ From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>x Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXenOH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55L-032.0305231701200.5410@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  + On Fri, 23 May 2003, Bill Gunshannon wrote:i  * > In article <bals25$vnm$1@pcls4.std.com>,< > 	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > > K > > Out of sheer curiosity, if a normal "shrink" process could be done on a K > > Microvax 2 chip (or better, the latest NVAX) to modern standards, aboutsL > > what speed could it theoretically be clocked at, and how many VUPs could3 > > it be (if paired with modern memory/cache/etc.)  >tE > I've often wondered this myself but carried it one step further and4E > wondered the same about the PDP-11.  And then you have to wonder if,E > you had this and they had finished the MP PDP-11 work as well.  :-)a >r > bill >I > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:45:10 -0500,/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>b Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXenR3 Message-ID: <3ECEA476.F1060D76@applied-synergy.com>    Antonio Carlini wrote: >  > JF Mezei wrote:eH > > But wasn't Digital fairly conservative with the speeds of its CPUs ? > >5Q > > For instance, for the microvax II, would Digital have pushed the limit of theSK > > chip's speeds, or would it have been satisfied with a .9 VUP speed thats+ > > wouldn't compete against bigger vaxes ?e > = > In the case of the uVAX II, I think the CPU ran at just the 8 > right speed to match the memory interface. Maybe other: > systems could have been sped up a little. If you go back: > to the older, larger systems, such as the VAX-11/780 and6 > the VAX 8600, you could run the clock up to about 5%9 > faster to try and flush out marginal components. (And Iu- > think you could margin the voltages too...)d  F Correct, the uVAX II was designed so that the memory cycle (I think itA was 400ns) meshed with the clock cycle so that there were no waitn states.e  3 This also meant that there was no need for a cache.   G -----------------------------------------------------------------------t$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com t   Fax: 817-237-3074i   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2003 02:51:23 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXenr+ Message-ID: <bammnb0ept@enews3.newsguy.com>d  @ In comp.sys.dec.micro Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote:3 > I'm still waiting to see the results of the PDP-8P > and PDP-10 fpga efforts.   I assume you've seen:   http://www.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/  K BTW, I now have a webpage on all FPGA implementations of DEC CPU's that I'mF. aware of, as part of my DEC Emulation website:- http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp_fpga.htmla  = The ones I'm personally interested in are the PDP-10 efforts.   	 		   Zaneh   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2003 04:25:39 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: Overclocking VAXenA, Message-ID: <bams8302lo2@enews1.newsguy.com>  ) Stanley F. Quayle <stan@stanq.com> wrote:t7 > On 22 May 2003 at 20:24, Holi - Holitska Andrs wrote:e> >>   I was just wondering... anybody around here, who has done  >>   some overclocking on VAXen?  H > If you're running a production system, and need more performance, you G > can get there with a fast PC and CHARON-VAX [shameless plug alert].  d. > (I just happen to be a CHARON-VAX reseller.)  D If someone needs a faster VAX, they *might* be better off going withJ CHARON-VAX, but it still can't beat one of the faster VAXen, an Alpha, or $ the Itanium 2's that are on the way.  A I see that SRI is claiming 50+ VUPs depending on the host systemseH configuration.  I for one would like to here real-world examples of suchJ performance from someone that's running it, not someone that is trying to F sell it (sorry, that includes both you and SRI, no offense intended, IL simply tend not to trust numbers from someone with a financial interest in a product).  n  D I've got to admit that I'm very impressed by what I just read on theL Charon-VAX.  I take it the "Dynamic Instruction Translation" is kind of like0 what WinNT/Alpha could do with x86 windows apps?  L Personally, the biggest advantages I see to CHARON-VAX is that it's a way toL get VAX-only apps running on an Alpha (I wouldn't trust something running onL OpenVMS to a Windows based system), and the ability to get off of really old	 hardware.e  E > One customer recently told me that it his weekend batch processing  . > went from 4 hours on a real VAX to 1/2 hour.  I How about some useful data, what was the VAX, and what is the host system  for CHARON-VAX.A  A > Of course, with a VLC being like 1/2 VUP, anything would be an   > improvement.  :)  J Since it's rated at 6.2 for SPECint92, I think it's safe to say that a VLCC is a whole lot more than 0.5 VUPs, I know it's a lot faster than my L VS3100/20 which is a usable 2.4 VUPs.  I think this whole thread was startedC by someone looking to kill some time and play with a spare machine.    			Zaneu   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 12:34:54 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death3 Message-ID: <rvYX0hkj3LTB@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  o In article <_Wqza.244457$w7k.78297@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  >  > a point of semantics.... > F > NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS  (unless youH > count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC to Microsoft). >   = 	Wrong!  It is very much VMS - some of the features retaining4 	the same names!  < 	Time to trot out Jamie Hanrahan's wonderful counterpoint to6 	JF (who at one time attempted to spin NT's heritage):  9 	What amazes me is , 5 , 7 years after the fact this mythi: 	keeps resurfacing.  The myth that NT is NOT a VMS derived5 	design or VMS re-implemented.  It most certainly is.S   				Robe    : From: Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Systems (jeh@cmkrnl.com)" Subject: Re: FX!32, affinity etc.  Newsgroups: comp.os.vms  Date: 1997/05/28    r  ( In article <338A488D.6FC7@videotron.ca>,1  jfmezei <"[nospam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca> writes:a) > David Cathey (Remove MX to mail) wrote:eF >> culmulated into OpenVMS.  The sad thing is Cutler had to capitulateA >> to a Windows assimilation of his theoretically sound base O/S.cB >> You'd think he would have taken the tenets of procedure calling >> standards with him as well. > D > I think it is quite pretentious of the VMSer to think that Cutler C > had so much design authority over NT and that he would have taken- > his VMS knowledge with him.,  F Not pretentitious at all.  We're simply aware of facts you apparently  haven't heard about.    F From the internals point of view there is utterly no question that NT  is VMS re-implemented.    F > Cutler was told to replace DOS with a real kernel over which Windows: > could run, over which teh windows API could run etc etc.  D This is off-topic, but you're incorrect here also.  Originally thereC wasn't even going to be a Win32 API - 16-bit Windows had not gotten,B all that popular when NT was conceived.  NT was originally to be aD follow-on to OS/2, and a cooperative effort with IBM.  But somewhereF along the way Windows got pretty popular, IBM and MS split the beast, 7 IBM getting the OS/2 parts and MS keeping the NT parts.e  J > If you look at the PSION PDA operating system (called EPOC), you'll alsoA > find many many similarities with VMS. Event Flags, InterprocessnJ > Mailboxes, shared memory between processes, process priorities, and evenG > a utility (SPY) which is the equivalent to SHOW SYS. Its IO system is ? > similar to VMS (an equivalent to $ASSIGN with the device namelA > determining which driver to use, and $QIO which is more or less % > independant of the device itself.).M  B That's out at the UI and API level.  We're talking about internal  similarities.  i  A > NT is an WINDOWS operating system with modern operating systemsiA > services. They were implemented with the Windows API mentality.a5 > Stop thinking that NT is VMS with WINDOWS above it.t  C No, not "VMS with Windows above it", but a VMS-derived design with t" Windows above it, most certainly.   H > NT differs from DOS in that it has real operating system features, but+ > the later are not the exclusivity of VMS.e  C The "real operating system features" you speak of are at the UI andt; API level.  They are not the reasons we consider NT to be a 0 reimplementation of VMS at the internal level.    
 How about:  C The scheduler.  (process scheduler in VMS, thread scheduler in NT) hC 32 scheduling priorities, divided into the "real-time" (16-31) and dE "variable" (0-15) priority ranges.  identical preemption at ready by i> higher-priority threads; identical quantum and priority boost E implementations; identical CPU starvation avoidance mechanism to get eB out of priority inversion situations; a null thread for each CPU;  etc., etc.    6 Memory management.  0-7FFFFFFF is per-process, mostly C user-mode-accessible only; 80000000-FFFFFFFF is systemwide, mostly nC kernel-accessible only.  Functionally identical implementations of c paging vs. swapping. l  B I/O.  I could write a book (in fact, I am), but briefly, IRPs are E IRPs, UCBs are "device objects", CRBs are "controller objects", ADPs M= are "adapter objects", FDT routines are "dispatch routines", uG EXE$QIODRVPKT is IoStartPacket, StartIO routines are StartIO routines, eC fork routines are DPC routines, ASTs are APCs... etc., etc., etc., h etc., etc.    F Interrupt handling.  32 levels of interrupts (some simulated but this E is nevertheless the way the code is written).  IPLs on VMS, IRQLs on  G NT.  In order:  Passive level, APC (AST) Level, Dispatch (fork) level, :B then the IO hardware interrupts, then some "hardware maintenance" E functions like the hardware timer, IPI, power fail notification, and a$ HIGH_LEVEL to block all interrupts.   > Face it, JF, you're wrong.  Worse, you are writing not just in? misunderstanding but in ignorance of the facts.  Please go read E _Showstopper_ and _Inside Windows NT_ (Custer) before opining further  on this subject. e  6  --- Jamie Hanrahan, Kernel Mode Systems, San Diego CAB         Internet: jeh@cmkrnl.com (JH645)  CompuServe: 74140,2055  O drivers, internals, networks, applications, and training for VMS and Windows NToD NT driver FAQ, links, and other information:  http://www.cmkrnl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:09:01 -0400t* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death2 Message-ID: <VcGdndoJQsVV_lOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:rvYX0hkj3LTB@eisner.encompasserve.org...tK > In article <_Wqza.244457$w7k.78297@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,.% "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:r > >e > > a point of semantics.... > >gH > > NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS  (unless youJ > > count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC to Microsoft). > >m >" > Wrong!  It is very much VMS   J You're confused (or just being sloppy) again, Rob.  VMS is a product.  ItsK layered products are 'based on' VMS, and the Alpha VMS code base could alsosB be said to be 'based on' the VAX VMS code base by virtue of directL derivation and extension from it.  But NT is in no way a layered product norL a product directly derived from the VMS code base:  rather, it is related to4 VMS in more the manner that VMS and RSX are related.  G The design of several critical internal parts of NT certainly resemblesoK corresponding facilities in VMS.  And rumor has it that NT may contain some.K actual MICA code (MICA itself is of course not VMS, but it's not beyond the?L realm of possibility that some of its code was lifted close to verbatim fromE VMS).  But having many naming and structural identities with VMS, andRI possibly even some (though given the size of NT no significant percentage G of) code that may have been derived from VMS code, in no way guaranteesnI anything like the internal design discipline and quality and stability ofaJ implementation that characterize VMS:  as John said, NT is *modeled after*6 (and in some cases very closely) VMS, not based on it.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 15:48:22 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)c" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death3 Message-ID: <KAmCz7sfQhEm@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  _ In article <VcGdndoJQsVV_lOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:r > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:rvYX0hkj3LTB@eisner.encompasserve.org...hL >> In article <_Wqza.244457$w7k.78297@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:s >> > >> > a point of semantics....v >> >I >> > NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS  (unless yousK >> > count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC to Microsoft).m >> > >> >> Wrong!  It is very much VMS > 6 > You're confused (or just being sloppy) again, Rob.      < 	No ... your reading comprehension has apparently fallen off	 	a cliff.o   	Johnny Smith says:M  E "NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS  (unless youSG count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC to Microsoft)."0  ' 	Meaning:  "NT ... is not based on VMS"a   	And of *COURSE* it is!a   	Again, Jamie says:e  G "From the internals point of view there is utterly no question that NT g is VMS re-implemented."i  8 	With a very good technical post to support his opinion.  ; 	Now you can creatively trim ala Andrew.  And I can respondu 	again if you persist.   				Robl   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:12:46 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>." Subject: Re: Portents of VMS deathJ Message-ID: <i9wza.245791$w7k.159970@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:KAmCz7sfQhEm@eisner.encompasserve.org...g@ > In article <VcGdndoJQsVV_lOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >u< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:rvYX0hkj3LTB@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > >> In articleu> <_Wqza.244457$w7k.78297@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,) > > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:w > >> > > >> > a point of semantics....t > >> >> > >> > NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS (unless youqA > >> > count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC tog Microsoft).c > >> > > >>  > >> Wrong!  It is very much VMS > >a6 > > You're confused (or just being sloppy) again, Rob. >e >r= > No ... your reading comprehension has apparently fallen offn
 > a cliff. >s > Johnny Smith says: >nC > "NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS  (unless@ yous< > count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC to Microsoft)." >e( > Meaning:  "NT ... is not based on VMS" >i > And of *COURSE* it is! >  > Again, Jamie says: >>E > "From the internals point of view there is utterly no question thatt NT > is VMS re-implemented."d > 9 > With a very good technical post to support his opinion.o >f< > Now you can creatively trim ala Andrew.  And I can respond > again if you persist.r    F "Based on" and *is VMS re-implemented* are two different things. There> are great similarities and in certain instances there is a 1:1D correspondence even down the the datatypes of the parameters and theD range of allowed values, but what did you expect from Cutler and theF ex-DEC people working with him. Again, unless there is cold hard proofE that Cutler walked over to Redmond with VMS source and started codingeF with that then "based on" is not what happened. It could have happenedF that way...certainly VMS source on fiche was available to Cutler...butF unless the full details of the settlement between Micrsoft and Digital= are someplace to be seen, you and I will never know for sure.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:16:01 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death) Message-ID: <3ECEC7CE.F117432C@istop.com>o   mist dragon wrote:F > You make it sound like I hate vms. I dont. I think its rather stableG > although quite monolithic according the modern standards and not veryA
 > popular.  K There is no question that VMS has been neglected. But as an OS, I don't seeeL why you call it monolithic. It supports Unix's modern GUI (x windows) and isI compatible with HP-UX's Motif (although VMS's version of motif is older).   H Any management who would want to bring VMS back into the limelight wouldN simply have to allocate some budget to spruce up the various utilities such asI mail, package thing a bit better, and of course, get ISVs to port to VMS.   K VMS has multiple web servers. And while it is lacking in the SSH area, thatT> could be fixed easily (non-Digital TCPIP stacks provide this).  E > example Oracle had around 200 different operating systems supportedmH > and now it has only 7 and all emphasis is now on Linux and its variant  N In the IT industry, there are 2 types of software: the permanent, long lasting1 and evolving ones, and the "soupe du jour" types.o  N ALL-IN-1 started as purely character cell, added client-server, and then added IMAP, POP etc.  J On the windows worlds, folks went from no emails, to CCmail, to MSMAIL, toN Exchange and/or Lotus Notes, with each change requiring to start from scratch.L It used to be that Lotus Notes was the buzzword. But theses days, you rarely heard about it.   1 Is Linux a flash in the pan ?  Too early to tell.o  I But VMS has the potential to not only keep up with the Jones, but in manynJ aspects, be the leader of the pack.  Scalability is still a VMS advantage,* which is not being leveraged by Compaq/HP.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 02:12:59 GMTuL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death6 Message-ID: <00A204E7.C9F7FE65@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  I >Any management who would want to bring VMS back into the limelight wouldo  O >simply have to allocate some budget to spruce up the various utilities such as J >mail, package thing a bit better, and of course, get ISVs to port to VMS. >aL >VMS has multiple web servers. And while it is lacking in the SSH area, that? >could be fixed easily (non-Digital TCPIP stacks provide this).   N OpenSSL is available (and supported by HP), and there's an Early Adopter's Kit& in play already for HP-supported SSH.    >FF >> example Oracle had around 200 different operating systems supportedI >> and now it has only 7 and all emphasis is now on Linux and its varianta >mO >In the IT industry, there are 2 types of software: the permanent, long lasting,2 >and evolving ones, and the "soupe du jour" types. >oO >ALL-IN-1 started as purely character cell, added client-server, and then addede >IMAP, POP etc.o >nK >On the windows worlds, folks went from no emails, to CCmail, to MSMAIL, to,O >Exchange and/or Lotus Notes, with each change requiring to start from scratch.tM >It used to be that Lotus Notes was the buzzword. But theses days, you rarely  >heard about it. >a2 >Is Linux a flash in the pan ?  Too early to tell.  J If the question is "are free *nix systems a flash in the pan", the answer  is no.  J >But VMS has the potential to not only keep up with the Jones, but in manyK >aspects, be the leader of the pack.  Scalability is still a VMS advantage,r+ >which is not being leveraged by Compaq/HP.S   -- Alan    -- AO ===============================================================================t0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056kM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025MO ===============================================================================m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:23:00 -0400u* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death) Message-ID: <3ECED77D.5F92539B@istop.com>p   Rob Young wrote: >         Again, Jamie says: > H > "From the internals point of view there is utterly no question that NT > is VMS re-implemented."n  M And from the internals point of view, it was clear that the original EPOC was,; a minimal re-implementation of VMS with the same concepts.    G Was it a copy of VMS, or was it just standard stuff being implemented ?,  M If someone makes VT100 compatible terminal emulator, does this mean that theydW re-implemented the original DEC code ?  Thery just implemnented the same functionality.c  I Just because on EPOC (SIBO), processes with priority above 16 also ran inrJ "real time" doesn't mean that theyu re-implemented VMS. It just means thatL like digital set some standards on the VT100 emulated by everyone else, theyI may also have set standards for an OS which have been emulated by others.n  L Microsoft is not the only one to have inspired themselves from VMS concepts.  N If IBM implemented clustering concepts similar to those of VMS, does this meanM that they stole code ? Coudln't it simply be that instead of re-inventing theo3 wheel, the just re-implemenmted the same concepts ?W   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 23:27:43 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)o" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death3 Message-ID: <C6GyUShgyRCN@eisner.encompasserve.org>T  p In article <i9wza.245791$w7k.159970@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >    >>D >> "NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS  (unless > you3= >> count the code Cutler is rumored to have taken from DEC toc > Microsoft)." >>) >> Meaning:  "NT ... is not based on VMS"9 >> >> And of *COURSE* it is!  >> >> Again, Jamie says:t >>F >> "From the internals point of view there is utterly no question that > NT >> is VMS re-implemented." >>: >> With a very good technical post to support his opinion. >>= >> Now you can creatively trim ala Andrew.  And I can respondV >> again if you persist. >  > H > "Based on" and *is VMS re-implemented* are two different things. There@ > are great similarities and in certain instances there is a 1:1F > correspondence even down the the datatypes of the parameters and theF > range of allowed values, but what did you expect from Cutler and theH > ex-DEC people working with him. Again, unless there is cold hard proofG > that Cutler walked over to Redmond with VMS source and started coding H > with that then "based on" is not what happened. It could have happenedH > that way...certainly VMS source on fiche was available to Cutler...butH > unless the full details of the settlement between Micrsoft and Digital? > are someplace to be seen, you and I will never know for sure.- >   6 	Eric Raymond knows where all the bodies are buried in< 	Unix history and in many ways rips SCO's lawsuit to shreds.  7 	Similarly, Jamie Hanrahan points out exactly how NT is.4 	little more than warmed over VMS.  Again, comparing, 	4 major areas that make up an OS he states:  
 How about:  C The scheduler.  (process scheduler in VMS, thread scheduler in NT) hC 32 scheduling priorities, divided into the "real-time" (16-31) and -E "variable" (0-15) priority ranges.  identical preemption at ready by l> higher-priority threads; identical quantum and priority boost E implementations; identical CPU starvation avoidance mechanism to get gB out of priority inversion situations; a null thread for each CPU;  etc., etc.    6 Memory management.  0-7FFFFFFF is per-process, mostly C user-mode-accessible only; 80000000-FFFFFFFF is systemwide, mostly 3C kernel-accessible only.  Functionally identical implementations of   paging vs. swapping. P  B I/O.  I could write a book (in fact, I am), but briefly, IRPs are E IRPs, UCBs are "device objects", CRBs are "controller objects", ADPs  = are "adapter objects", FDT routines are "dispatch routines", iG EXE$QIODRVPKT is IoStartPacket, StartIO routines are StartIO routines, CC fork routines are DPC routines, ASTs are APCs... etc., etc., etc., t etc., etc.    F Interrupt handling.  32 levels of interrupts (some simulated but this E is nevertheless the way the code is written).  IPLs on VMS, IRQLs on OG NT.  In order:  Passive level, APC (AST) Level, Dispatch (fork) level, 5B then the IO hardware interrupts, then some "hardware maintenance" E functions like the hardware timer, IPI, power fail notification, and .$ HIGH_LEVEL to block all interrupts.   2 	I don't know why you persist, but as Jamie states+ 	the facts are facts..  Re-reading what you < 	wrote above, I'm not sure what your point is.  If NT shares9 	the same design (naming the same things the same in many B 	cases) as VMS, it is VMS re-implemented (re-created, re-written).   	So when you say:-  9 "NT is modeled after many VMS concepts, not based on VMS"o   	That is not true.   				Robc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:26:38 +0200@+ From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl>w" Subject: Re: Reading an ASCII File5 Message-ID: <balslh$16sp5$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>S   Larry,  G the fact that the answer was coded in ADA caused the laugh. I mean, thehH question was probably an all time low in c.o.v. (besides the VMS is deadK mantra's we occasionally receive). So if it was a serious question then the L poster is not that technical in the first place. 3GL's differ in complexity,J basic being at one end and PL/I , BLISS and ADA on the other end (at least. IMHO). So that caused a laugh. Still does. :-)   Hans    < "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht- news:GUkmt60pG$lo@eisner.encompasserve.org... C > In article <baj0es$9vrl$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems"u  <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> writes:	 > > LOL !u >fC > What's so funny ?  There was nothing in the request/assignment toiF > say one had to _do_ anything with the file contents, just read them. >tC > There was nothing in the request/assignment regarding _what_ file < > was to be read, so I chose one that is likely to be there. >a@ > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht1 > > news:l$C6wYaPzIVZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...fB > >> In article <d6405963.0305211309.64106693@posting.google.com>,3 > > maneesh_jain@hotmail.com (Maneesh Jain) writes:a > >>L > >> > In one of my programs, I need to read an ASCII File. Can someone give2 > >> > me a sample program that does this? Thanks. > >>" > >>     with TEXT_IO;use TEXT_IO; > >>     procedure DEMO is > >>! > >>         MY_FILE : FILE_TYPE;h, > >>         BUFFER : STRING ( 1 .. 32767 ); > >>         LAST : NATURAL; > >> > >>     begin > >>, > >>         TEXT_IO.OPEN ( FILE => MY_FILE,E > >>                        NAME => SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM" );l > >>; > >>         while not END_OF_FILE ( FILE => MY_FILE ) loop24 > >>             TEXT_IO.GET_LINE ( FILE => MY_FILE,3 > >>                                ITEM => BUFFER, 3 > >>                                LAST => LAST );- > >>         end loop; > >> > >>     end DEMO; > >a > -- - >-L ============================================================================ ==K > The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anythingCL >      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willK >      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warningsIJ >      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival  >      of the online community." >eL ============================================================================ ==   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:19:26 +0200c< From: "julien courtemanche" <julien.courtemanche@wanadoo.fr> Subject: rtr web admin3 Message-ID: <bam3aa$fe6$1@news-reader14.wanadoo.fr>    hello,  J apparently rtr in this lastest version have a web admin... but I can't use it..   under my vms, I make mc rtr start http_server  % under my IE  : http://mymachine:46000- give my login password3 and enter the rtr nodename on the rtr home page....- and after nothing .....M  / someone have ever used this web admin for rtr ?G   thanks   ------------------------------    Date: 23 May 2003 21:59:48 +03009 From: costello@iki.fi (Antti =?iso-8859-1?q?J=E4rvinen?=)c4 Subject: Re: system fan failure in Alphaserver 4100./ Message-ID: <m31xypwkt7.fsf@muikku.katiska.org>r  9 moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:oD > Alphaserver 4100s have sensors in the fans to make sure they work.F > (At least on the little ones on the CPU heatsinks).  The system willE > physically power off if it senses that a fan has failed.  They havemE > 3 wires, and may be harder to find.  I just checked, I don't see a  # > manufacturer name on the CPU fan.i  E I have as2000 parts and no fan at all and the thing powers itself off K right after memory test, might have something to do with missing fan -> who M knows what kind of fan to attach? I've propably found the fan power connectoreJ but I'd be very grateful to know what different pins do (the connector hasI 6 pins) and what kind of voltage the fan would want. This missing one is aI the large fan next to cpu/memory assembly, as2000 does not have fans for   individual cpus.   --   Antti Jrvinen, costello@iki.fi55             "concerto for two faggots and orchestra"     ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:57:16 GMTo, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> Subject: USP going away.< Message-ID: <0itza.1525$W72.1040@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>  G While I never could get management to put this into our applications, IlL always thought it was a nice (and free) product.  Got this message recently:  K Thank you for your interest in Universal Support Processor (USP) technologys for OpenVMS Alpha.  J Since your registration and download, HP has made some decisions regarding USP:  K * No further development or new features for USP are planned past USP V6.1,nI which is available now. Future maintenance (bug fixes) will be applied too USP V6.1-1.   4 * USP will not be ported to OpenVMS Itanium (IA-64).  L * Support for USP will continue for as long as necessary to support existing/ customers with solutions implemented using USP.y  H If you are strongly considering using USP to implement an application orB solution, please contact me at OpenVMS.eBusiness@hp.com to discussL alternatives. We only want to encourage the usage of USP in situations whereG the unique features and capabilities of USP are absolutely required. ToaH provide a longer term migration path, unique USP features will be merged> over time into new and existing development and runtime tools.   Regards,  
 John Fergusonr   OpenVMS e-Business Program   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:12:57 +0200 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> Subject: Re: USP going away.' Message-ID: <3ECE8ED9.8020802@spam.com>u   James Gessling wrote:X  J > If you are strongly considering using USP to implement an application orD > solution, please contact me at OpenVMS.eBusiness@hp.com to discuss > alternatives.w    O If you are strongly considering using USP with OpenVMS/Itanium to implement an  Q application or solution, please contact Domald Jenkins, VP Operating Environment d; Marketing, Business Critical Systems, donald.jenkins@hp.com   P I met him in Amsterdam. I told him that I have a cross-compiler which HAS TO be O ported to Itanium, he took my business card and told me that someone will come u back to me on this.    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:02:16 -0400h* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> Subject: Re: USP going away.) Message-ID: <3ECED2A2.52C06A6A@istop.com>d   James Gessling wrote: M > Thank you for your interest in Universal Support Processor (USP) technologya > for OpenVMS Alpha.  8 What exactly is that product ? What does it eat and do ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:40:07 +020006 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>1 Subject: Re: WebServices / SOAP / C++ / DECPASCALm) Message-ID: <3ECE6B07.2010709@vajhoej.dk>u   Harald Pollak wrote:G > Doas anyone know if there are SOAP tools for C++ or better DECPascal m > exists run on VMS?  . If you switched to Java you could choose among many SOAP toolkits.d  ! But SOAP is mostly Java or Win32.p  & I have never heard of SOAP for Pascal.  ' There are SOAP implementation in C/C++."   Commercial:b9    http://www.systinet.com/products/wasp_cserver/overviewA   Free:e#    http://easysoap.sourceforge.net/c    http://www.opensoap.jp/   Arne   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.285 ************************ often wondered this myself but carried it one step further and4E > wondered the same about the PDP-11.  And-Hr	.I5{Τm];;Zۛ.a	toրgg5y>+0~ɢAg
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