0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 01 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 63      Contents: Re: Cluster timeouts question  Re: Cluster timeouts question  RE: Cluster timeouts question  Re: Cluster timeouts question O Re: FOR070.DAT files appearing - (Crow doesn't taste so bad after all) all)all) " Hobbyist kit installation problems& Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems& Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems& Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems& Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems& Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems< Re: Intel boycott along with HP if they try to kill OpenVMS!< Re: Intel boycott along with HP if they try to kill OpenVMS!< Re: Intel boycott along with HP if they try to kill OpenVMS!: Re: p2c (dave gillespie's pas to c converter) & VMS pascal: Re: p2c (dave gillespie's pas to c converter) & VMS pascal Re: Splitting serial cables ?  Re: Splitting serial cables ?  Re: Splitting serial cables ?  Re: Splitting serial cables ?  Re: Splitting serial cables ?  Re: Splitting serial cables ?  Re: Splitting serial cables ? ' Re: The Pentium Chronicles (2006.01.31) ' Re: The Pentium Chronicles (2006.01.31) ' Re: The Pentium Chronicles (2006.01.31)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2006 11:38:19 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) & Subject: Re: Cluster timeouts question, Message-ID: <0BSZMQp4+sqV@malvm9.mala.bc.ca>  + In article <449mbnF13l7qU1@individual.net>, .     bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  I >> SOME VAX models could RESTART instead of REBOOT after a power outage,  = >> the contents of memory having been preserved in batteries.  > G > Not new with the VAX, the PDP-11 did that.  While I have no batteries 6 > ont hem I have a number of the BBU's for my 11/44's. >   D   BATTERIES!! Who needs batteries, just use core memory (that's what our 11/40 had on it )    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:02:03 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>& Subject: Re: Cluster timeouts question? Message-ID: <%mPDf.228724$D47.100198@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  > H > SOME VAX models could RESTART instead of REBOOT after a power outage, < > the contents of memory having been preserved in batteries.  C I once saw a DEC-20 with magnetic core memory restart after a week  A without power after a failure on Christmas eve. The console said   something like:    %^$^&*!8r9r% %DECSYSTEM-20 NOT RUNNING & [Front End reloaded by KL10 processor] ... RSX20 startup stuff  ...  [SY0 Redirected to DB0]   ' PWRFAIL - attempting to continue system    %DECSYSTEM-20 NOT RUNNING H BUGCHK PWRRST - Power Restart System succesfully recovered from a Power  Failure  [DECSYSTEM-20 Continued]  F And all jobs carried on from where they were a week previously. After I the core memory was unpraded to MOS memory you only had about 30 seconds  G to run into the machine room and reset the breakers after a power trip  K before the very limited battery (probably just a big capacitor...) expired.      --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:43:01 -0500 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> & Subject: RE: Cluster timeouts question: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDGEGEHDAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Alan Greig [mailto:greigaln@netscape.net] ) > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 3:02 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ( > Subject: Re: Cluster timeouts question >  >  >  > 1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  > > J > > SOME VAX models could RESTART instead of REBOOT after a power outage, > > > the contents of memory having been preserved in batteries. > E > I once saw a DEC-20 with magnetic core memory restart after a week  C > without power after a failure on Christmas eve. The console said   > something like:   - Common for PDP-11's with core memory as well.       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:11:43 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> & Subject: Re: Cluster timeouts question( Message-ID: <ops39r9txpzgicya@hyrrokkin>  K On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:55:03 +0000 (UTC), Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES   1 to reply <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de> wrote:   H > In article <ops37xazx5zgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>	 > writes:  > J >> Then explain this.  This morning I was getting excessive packet loss onI >> one of my alpha nodes,  so I tried reseating the ethernet cable simply K >> by sliding  it in an out.  The node crashed.  Now the router is a cisco, J >> the orange light came on for some length of time which I interpreted to >> mean H >> that it hadn't acquired sync, just a WAG.  It would be nice to have a >> function , >> like, "I am going to move you so hang on" > ! > How many nodes in your cluster?  >  1 VAX + 4 AXP 7.3 thru 7.3-2   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:30:18 -0800 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>X Subject: Re: FOR070.DAT files appearing - (Crow doesn't taste so bad after all) all)all)0 Message-ID: <C005795A.1B1D0%roktsci@comcast.net>  E On 1/30/06 7:34 AM, in article qwsulMAPWylP@eisner.encompasserve.org, < "briggs@encompasserve.org" <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:   >>  
 >> Incorrect!  >>  K >> If you are USERA (privileged or not), and you have normal permissions to K >> create a file in a directory owned by USERB, the file you create will be  >> owned by you, USERA.  >>  N >> However if you (USERA) do not have normal Rights or Access to create a fileL >> in USERB's directory, but you have the system privilege to do so, such asM >> BYPASS, or any other privilege that allows you to do so, then the owner of 2 >> the file is the parent of the directory, USERB. >  > Incorrect  > C > If you (USERA) have rights to create a file in USERB's directory, J > _regardless of whether those rights arise from the UIC-based protection,C > from an ACL or from the use of privilege_ and if you further have C > "ownership" rights to the owner UIC (or rights identifier) of the H > parent directory then the owner of the file is the owner of the parent > directory. > / > This assumes that no previous version exists.  > D > File ownership defaults first to the owner of the previous version@ > (rights permitting) then falls back to the owner of the parentC > directory (rights permitting) and finally falls back to ownership - > by the creator (rights always permit this).  > ; > "Ownership rights" to create a file owned by owner U are:  > @ > If U is a rights identifier and the creator holds identifier U@ > with the resource attribute then ownership rights are present. > H > If U is a UIC in group G and if the creator has GRPPRV and is in group& > G then ownership rights are present. > C > If U is a UIC and the creator has UIC U then ownership rights are 
 > present. > E > If the creator holds BYPASS, SYSPRV or has a UIC group less than or L > equal to the MAXSYSGRP SYSGEN parameter then ownership rights are present. > 8 > Otherwise, the creator does not have ownership rights.  I I thought I had you. So I was composing a demonstration, and "Poof" to my  amazement, you were correct.  J I distinctly remember that this was the behavior back in version 5.x, thatL if you had rights (that is granted by file protections or ACLs) to writ in aL directory the owner of the file would be that of the creator, however if youL used a privilege where a right (protection/ACL) was refused, the owner would8 be the owner of the parent directory. I stand corrected.  L Do you remember this behavior in the past? Or are my grey matter cells truly
 misfiring?  / Boy! I'm beginning to acquire a taste for crow.  Jeff   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2006 18:44:06 -08007 From: "greg.chabala@gmail.com" <greg.chabala@gmail.com> + Subject: Hobbyist kit installation problems C Message-ID: <1138761846.038711.140930@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 Hello all,  F I've been having some trouble installing my VMS hobbyist kit. I have aG MicroVAX 3400, with a RRD42 cd-rom drive attached to the KZQSA adapter. " The machine currently runs VMS 5.5  F At the console prompt, my only bootable devices are three hard drives,F DIA0, DIA1, DIA2, and the TK50 drive, and the Ethernet interface. WhenD I use SHOW DEV in VMS, I can see the cd-rom listed at THEVAX$DKA500.  D My only problem is that the installation instructions want me to sayF something like BOOT DKA500 at the console, but my console doesn't find# the device. What should I be doing?    Greg Chabala greg.chabala@gmail.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:20:04 -0600 (CST) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)/ Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems 2 Message-ID: <06013121200483_20331674@antinode.org>  7 From: "greg.chabala@gmail.com" <greg.chabala@gmail.com>   H > I've been having some trouble installing my VMS hobbyist kit. I have aI > MicroVAX 3400, with a RRD42 cd-rom drive attached to the KZQSA adapter. $ > The machine currently runs VMS 5.5 > H > At the console prompt, my only bootable devices are three hard drives,H > DIA0, DIA1, DIA2, and the TK50 drive, and the Ethernet interface. WhenF > I use SHOW DEV in VMS, I can see the cd-rom listed at THEVAX$DKA500.  C    Looks bad (but probably not fatal).  If you can't see the CD-ROM H drive at the console (I'd expect as DKA500), then it'll be tough to bootE from it.  It's possible that the console firmware (in the CPU) is too , old to know about a KZQSA (and its friends).  F > My only problem is that the installation instructions want me to sayH > something like BOOT DKA500 at the console, but my console doesn't find% > the device. What should I be doing?   C    Step one in a classic VMS VAX installation is to boot standalone G BACKUP (SAB), which can be done from any available device which has the H SAB kit installed.  The installation CD-ROM is often the most convenientF SAB boot medium, but it's not the only choice, and SAB is not the only method.   B    If you're installing (not upgrading) VMS on some disk or other,G you'll be initializing the disk.  (So, BACKUP /IMAGE to tape might be a E good idea, if there're any useful data on the target disk.  BACKUP to G TK50 tape allows plenty of time to contemplate the next step.  You also G have a 1X CD-ROM drive, so it won't be blindingly fast, either, except, & perhaps, when compared with the TK50.)  E    The critical early installation step is to restore (BACKUP /IMAGE) G the VMSxxx.B save set onto the target disk.  This may be done using SAB G or normal BACKUP, and the VMSxxx.% save sets may be on any medium, tape D or disk.  (On disk, all except .B must be in the [000000] directory,	 however.)   F    The conventional scheme is to boot SAB from the CD-ROM, and installH from there.  (This works in cases where there's no VMS available alreadyD on the system.)  Failing that, you could boot your existing VMS V5.5> (V5.5-2 is the best of those, by the way), where the CD-ROM is/ accessible, copy the VMSxxx.% save sets to some H non-target_disk:[000000], and then start the installation with a command like:   F    BACKUP /VERIFY /IMAGE non-target_disk:[000000]VMSxxx.B target_disk:  G Then continue as usual, specifying non-target_disk: as the installation H medium.  It's possible that copying VMSxxx.B to non-target_disk:[000000]F would be enough, as the next step is booting VMS from target_disk, and; it may be able to see the VMSxxx.% save sets on the CD-ROM.   B    There are several variables here, depending on disk space, diskD contents (what to preserve, what may be discarded), and so on, but I doubt that you're doomed (yet).   ?    Which Hobbyist kit, the latest one with VMS V7.3 ("VMSxxx" = 
 "VMS073")?  ,    Which DSSI disk (DIAx) models/capacities?  B    Direct e-mail is ok if you have any specific questions.  (Or if( you're now more bewildered than before.)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:40:09 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems , Message-ID: <43E02D86.9E192FE1@teksavvy.com>   "greg.chabala@gmail.com" wrote: F > My only problem is that the installation instructions want me to sayH > something like BOOT DKA500 at the console, but my console doesn't find% > the device. What should I be doing?      A good resource:  , http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/vax_kit.pdf    C I am not sure that the KZKSA allows one to boot from devices. DEC's * early SCSI controllers were quite limited.  H If you intend to do a fresh install, overwriting your current 5.5 system" disk, you should do the following:  D boot from the 5.5 disk. In SYS$UPDATE, you will find a STABACKIT.COMC procedure which lets you build a standalone backup kit. This can be H created on one of your other disk drives. You give it a root number (eg:H 0 to 9), and it will deposit the kit in [000000.SYSx] . YOu can then >>>C BOOT/x DISK:  and it will give you a very limited VMS with just the  backup command.   H As you boot the standalone backup, it will give you a list of configured6 devices. Lets assume the CD shows up on those devices.  H To install VMS once you have booted standalone backup from disk2, issue:  7 $ BACKUP/IMAGE  DKA500:[000000]VAXVMS072.B/SAVE  DISK1:   F  you may have to change the VAXVMS072 to 073 or whatever is present on/ your CD, but you want to install the B saveset.   ? This creates a minimalist VMS system disk on "DISK1:" which you 9 specified. You can then crash your system and BOOT DISK1: H and this will boot this minimalist system whose startup procedure is setF to continue with the installation procedure and it will prompt you forH the location of your media, again give it the CD drive's device name and" the rest of pretty well automatic.    D When you install VMS "fresh", you install the B saveset with BACKUP.  G When you upgrade VMS, you use the SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL procedure and it D looks into the A saveset for the upgrade procedures which then drive things from there.  A notes: you will be using old 5.5 BACKUP to restore your drive. It  *should* work.  F notes: the 5.5 standalone BACKUP will initialise your system disk withG old parameters. VMS 7.2 and later are able to use smaller cluster sizes D etc on a drive. Once you've done the installation, you might wish toE recreate a new standalone backup on a spare drive, and use it to copy H your new system disk to the 3rd spare drive. Boot from that spare drive.C Then you can properly INITIALIZE the main system disk with whatever 1 parameters and cluste size you want, and then use G BACKUP/IMAGE/NOINIT/NOALIAS to copy from the tempoerary spare disk back  to your permanent system disk.  D Note that with 7.2 and later version of VMS, you should use /NOALIASG with /IMAGE which will save some time because it will not multiply copy 1 the same file that has multiple diretory entries.   @ If you go to the montagar site, you need to quickly stop it fromD redirecting to the openvmshobbysist web site which seems to lack theD documentation on how to install from a not-so-obvious configuration.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:40:53 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems , Message-ID: <43E02DB2.3D98C869@teksavvy.com>  > Here is a more direct link to some of the older documentation:  - http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/install.html    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:18:55 -0600 (CST) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)/ Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems 2 Message-ID: <06013122185518_20331674@antinode.org>  - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   F > boot from the 5.5 disk. In SYS$UPDATE, you will find a STABACKIT.COME > procedure which lets you build a standalone backup kit. This can be J > created on one of your other disk drives. You give it a root number (eg:9 > 0 to 9), and it will deposit the kit in [000000.SYSx] .   B    Default is SYS0 for a non-system disk (where there is no [SYS0]F already) and SYSE for a system disk (where there is a [SYS0] already).   >  YOu can then >>> E > BOOT/x DISK:  and it will give you a very limited VMS with just the  > backup command.   
    That's:         BOOT /x0000000 device  or:        BOOT /R5:x0000000 device  B Including the colon on the device ("DISK:") probably works on thisE machine, but will cause a MicroVAX II to hang, so it's a bad habit to 
 cultivate.  9 > $ BACKUP/IMAGE  DKA500:[000000]VAXVMS072.B/SAVE  DISK1:  > H >  you may have to change the VAXVMS072 to 073 or whatever is present on1 > your CD, but you want to install the B saveset.   H    You'll probably have to change "VAXVMSxxx" to "VMSxxx", as that's the name it's more likely to have.  A > This creates a minimalist VMS system disk on "DISK1:" which you ; > specified. You can then crash your system and BOOT DISK1:   C    Halting is simpler than crashing.  There's a Halt button, but no 
 Crash button.   F > Note that with 7.2 and later version of VMS, you should use /NOALIASI > with /IMAGE which will save some time because it will not multiply copy 3 > the same file that has multiple diretory entries.   E    I doubt that this is true.  (Probably about as reliable as much of # the rest of this "helpful" advice.)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 00:14:55 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems , Message-ID: <43E043B6.17FC69D1@teksavvy.com>   "greg.chabala@gmail.com" wrote: F > Currently, VMS names the drives SYSTEM, USER01, and USER02. Based onG > the advice here, I should run STABACKIT and make a SAB kit on USER01, F > and then boot to that drive, DIA1:, and then backup the saveset from > the DKA500 onto SYSTEM:?     That is the gist of it, yes.  F You may wish to set host to the disk to reformat it. This way, yuo areE sure that you're starting with a clean slate and any major defects in  the disk are detected.  G You can access the disk,s controller from the >>> prompt with a command E like SET HOST/DUP or SET HOST/UQSSP with other parameters followed by C the disk's node name (SHOW DSSI will give you the disk node names).   G It will give you a list of services (TASKS) available, including PARAMS = set set disk paramenters (including node name), ERASE, VERIF.     	 From VMS:   
 $MC SYSGEN) SYSGEN> LOAD SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:FYDRIVER  SYSGEN> CONNECT FYA0 /NOADAP  2 $SET HOST/DUP/SERVER=MSCP$DUP/TASK=PARAMS diskname    E from the >>> console prompt, the command is different, but the online G help should give you a good idea. The task "DIRECT" gives you a list of  available tasks for that drive.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:02:12 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>E Subject: Re: Intel boycott along with HP if they try to kill OpenVMS! + Message-ID: <449qhkF13sb4U1@individual.net>     Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:s > In article <1138700334.213006.165280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> writes:  > I >>I just checked and it worked for me.  Maybe it knows I am not in the US  >>and lets me look.  >  > ' > No, I don't think that is the reason.  > D > I had no problems first, and now have problems for all 5 articles. > 6 > Maybe they got "too old", got to the archive and the7 > archive "is available only for our paid subscribers".  > F That's my conclusion too since my browser displayed the link in light 5 blue, indicating that I had read the article already.    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2006 13:10:30 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com E Subject: Re: Intel boycott along with HP if they try to kill OpenVMS! B Message-ID: <1138741830.842966.68660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  / I read it just fine, but only part 1 and 5, and 2 I don't want to cut and paste if it is copyrighted3 but it basically asserts that Intel is and has used 1 itanium to destroy its other competition, but has 4 no real intentions to continue it ... if so, then HP5 is being paid to slowly kill off their alpha and unix 4 line, but have to slowly do so as to avoid lawsuits.  . Otherwise, only idiots would sit on an os that! leaves everyone else in the dust!    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Jan 2006 13:09:47 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>E Subject: Re: Intel boycott along with HP if they try to kill OpenVMS! C Message-ID: <1138741787.671071.172670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Paul Sture wrote: " > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:u > > In article <1138700334.213006.165280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> writes:  > > K > >>I just checked and it worked for me.  Maybe it knows I am not in the US  > >>and lets me look.  > >  > > ) > > No, I don't think that is the reason.  > > F > > I had no problems first, and now have problems for all 5 articles. > > 8 > > Maybe they got "too old", got to the archive and the9 > > archive "is available only for our paid subscribers".  > > G > That's my conclusion too since my browser displayed the link in light 7 > blue, indicating that I had read the article already.   E I just tried again and I still have no trouble reading the interview. @ Maybe you should try IE! Maybe it has a bug that let's you in. I. certainly didn't pay anyone $370 to read it!!!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:31:52 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> C Subject: Re: p2c (dave gillespie's pas to c converter) & VMS pascal = Message-ID: <43dfbb24$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Bob Koehler wrote:[ > In article <W4KdnciUOcqRH0LeRVn-jQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > K >>Fixing something that ain't broke, such as a re-write in (hawk, spit) C,  D >>seems to me to be a totally worthless redundant effort.  But if a B >>"time-critical real-time application" on a "linux webserver" is ' >>involved, I'm guessing anything goes.  >  > D >    Time-critical may not mean the same thing to all of us, just as >    real-time doesn't.  > G >    When I say real-time, I mean "hard real-time" as in high interrupt 0 >    rates and I/O devices that will not buffer. > G >    I have interviewed folks from the nuclear power industry for which J >    real-time means "if it take 24 hours to melt down in real life, then E >    it takes 24 hours to melt down in the simulation", and I can see > >    someone considering that to be a time-critical simulator. > E My teacher in real-time programming presented about 7 definitions of  E real-time programming as kernel and driver programmers use the term.  G Then he demonstrated that all of them were flawed.  Ken Olsen was once  E asked what a mini computer was, and the answer was that he could not  H define the term, but if you showed him a computer, he could tell if the F computer was a mini computer or not.  Along the same line I would say F that I cannot define the term real-time, but show me a program, and I 2 will tell you if it is a real-time program or not.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:35:48 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>C Subject: Re: p2c (dave gillespie's pas to c converter) & VMS pascal . Message-ID: <43DF83D4.9413.5DCD7575@localhost>  ( On 31 Jan 2006 at 17:48, Baldrick wrote:E > I suspect it is not _real_ time but just happens to be fast enough, G > and that if push came to shove it would fail. Like, when 5ms must and F > has to be, without exception, 5ms. If windows does what Windows does+ > best at that critical time, you're toast.   F I'm not sure where the "shove" would come from.  All Windows services > are disabled except for those required by the product.  Also, D supported configurations require at least 1 processor more than the A number of VAX processors being emulated.  This allows "overhead"  A functions and network interface emulation to stay out of the VAX   processors' way.  E There is a version of CHARON-VAX that uses a real-time OS under it.   , Perhaps that would be more to your liking...  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------   Date: 31 Jan 2006 20:29:40 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)& Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?+ Message-ID: <449vlkF15c6qU1@individual.net>   ( In article <dro0rq$6qp$1@pcls4.std.com>,: 	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > : >>  I would expect devices today to be much more likely toG >>stick to standards as it avoids a whole bunch of finger pointing when   >>things don't work.  Be aware!! > I > Not necessarily.  Consumer UPS's from a few years ago used serial ports E > speaking RS232 to control them, but they used a DB-9 using a pinout C > entirely different from the standard (if it is a standard) pinout  > widely used today.    E So does the PC.  As near as I can figure this was just another gimmic B to sell you a "special" cable".  Beyond that everything was RS232CG signal lev els with some of them merely using things like DSR, DTR, CTS I and DCD which are merely off/on type signals.  But which pins you use has J nothing to do with wether or not the two devices will recognize the signalH levels.  If your space signal never traverses 0v the receiving device isA free to ignore it completely and still be considered within spec.   G >                     In fact, if you used a standard cable to a PC and A > tried to transmit, many would power off, taking the PC with it.   F See my comment above.  And then visit APC's site.  Lo and behold, theyH sell that "special" cable so your PC and their UPS can talk.  Of course,I you can also find numerous Linux FAQs that tell you how to make your own. J Even more important when you figure that each company had their own schemeF for wiring up that DB9.  Hmmmm......  I wonder if that could have been6 because the standard never specified DB9 pinouts?  :-)   > 3 > Today they use USB, who knows if that's standard.   4 Which has nothing to do with the original discusion.  B Personally, I don't care.  I just thought it was worth warning theB person planning on hooking up multiple RS232 devices together thatB regardless of past sucesses there really is no guarantee this willC work,  As I said, I had to trouble shoot such a case and then I had A to try and convince an EE Professor that there really was nothing > wrong with the device in question, it just wasn't using RS232.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:32:20 -0500 , From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@istop.com>& Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?= Message-ID: <43dfca3f$0$27800$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com>   G Is this a shop environment or just an experimental toy in the basement.   J This type of hook-up does not exist in the RS232 spec at all and violatingL RS232 puts all connected systems at risk of having a hardware failure at the4 wrong time or of crashing just when they are needed.  4 If this were my business, I'd have your resignation.        : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:43DD3DBC.6E32BF1E@teksavvy.com... > "Steven M. Schweda" wrote:L > >    First figure out what is supposed to happen to all the outputs you'veG > > wired together, and who wins the arguments when one says "+12V" and  > > another says "-12V". > I > Since an OPA0: doesn't have modem controls, is that still a big problem  > ?  > E > The goal isn't to have multiple people writing to OPA0: at the same * > time. That would indeed cause gibberish.I > The goal is more to log the output opf OPA0: to two different ports and ; > possibly have one of those ports send data out at a time.  >  > Would that still fail ?  > I > >    This is one of the reasons for which God created terminal servers.  > A > Yeah, I guess. However a terminal server wouldn't let me have 2 5 > applications access the same port at the same time.  > G > And I would have to find a decserver that is UP without any help of a I > boot node. Consider after a total shutdown, if I wish to access the >>> C > prompt before booting, without a working decserver, I couldn't...  > C > But you are right, a decserver is probably still the most elegant  > solution.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:34:59 -0500 , From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@istop.com>& Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?= Message-ID: <43dfcace$0$27796$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com>     The place is Kanata not Kantata.  I If you had done this in our data centres on site I'd have fried your ass,  and I mean fried.     4 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message3 news:2ZnDf.1882$Iw6.130468@news20.bellglobal.com...  > 9 > "Steven M. Schweda" <sms@antinode.org> wrote in message . > news:06012920442024_20331674@antinode.org... > >  >  > [...snip...] > H > >   As RS232 signals generally run positive and negative, I'd be a bitH > > suspicious of the advice from folks who suggest adding diodes to theH > > system.  (Of course, having seen some before, I'd be more than a bitF > > suspicious of _any_ advice on electricity (or physics, in general) > > offered in this forum.)  > J > Except that I actually did this on a PDP-11/73 using only two diodes. We had L > an LA-120 console in the computer room and a VT100 about 25 feet away in aE > secondary equipment room. You are right about positive and negative  signals K > but, if memory serves, only the negative signals are really required over I > short distances. Now I must point out that there is no way an RS-232 or I > RS-423 signal bastardized in this way will be able to support the rated K > distance/speed charts. I should also mention that we never started up any  > CRT-based apps on the VT100. > J > p.s. you may think that only software people hang out in this news group but K > many of us started out life in the hardware world. I was DEC-qualified to H > work on many PDP and VAX products. Most of my DEC training (except the diode 5 > mod above) came from Bedford, Maynard, and Kantata.  >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:26:13 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?9 Message-ID: <keTDf.7447$Iw6.401408@news20.bellglobal.com>   8 "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@istop.com> wrote in message 7 news:43dfcace$0$27796$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com... " > The place is Kanata not Kantata. >   J Sorry about the typo. I guess I either need to use a larger font or get a  newer pair of eye glasses.   > K > If you had done this in our data centres on site I'd have fried your ass,  > and I mean fried.  >   I I was asked to come up with some sort of solution to our "two work area"  J problem by my manager (you know, those people that always demand more but D expect to pay little or nothing?). My Y-cable design was originally M installed on a PDP-11/44 running RSX-11M and was only licensed for one user.  K On top of that, all of the processor and expansion chassis slots were full  H so I couldn't have (cheaply) installed a serial card if I wanted to. So M doing something no unlike a "telephone tap" was all that was available to me  M at the time. It ran for 2-3 years on the PDP-11/44 then another 5 years on a  J replacement PDP-11/73 so I think it is fair to say that I knew what I was  doing when created the cable.   K Oh by the way, rather than frying my ass my boss damned near kissed it (it  M is at times like these that you want your boss to be of opposite gender). So  H fuck off and learn some basic electronic theory. Next you should try to I acquire the technical specifications of chips MC1488 (driver) and MC1489   (receiver).   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:55:08 -0500 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> & Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?I Message-ID: <8660a3a10601311755m28ea1146yfe35adf9ec416cdc@mail.gmail.com>   F On 1/30/06, Jeffrey H. Coffield <jeffrey@digitalsynergyinc.com> wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:  > I > > And I would have to find a decserver that is UP without any help of a K > > boot node. Consider after a total shutdown, if I wish to access the >>> E > > prompt before booting, without a working decserver, I couldn't...  > >  > H > Lantronix terminal servers can be configured boot without a load host. >   K And various members of the DECserver 700 family can boot from flash memory.   D Not too long ago I put together a list of DECserver 700 models whichA enables one to determine capabilities based on the part number if  anybody's interested.    WWWebb   --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:51:06 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?, Message-ID: <43E0220A.5FC06EC9@teksavvy.com>   William Webb wrote: M > And various members of the DECserver 700 family can boot from flash memory.   . The 700s still command a lot of money on Ebay.  F The cheaper 90s work with thinwire ethernet, an infrastructure which I* have just eliminated 2 days ago :-( :-( :-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:42:34 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> & Subject: Re: Splitting serial cables ?9 Message-ID: <ONGdnWwOvKiwxX3enZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > William Webb wrote:  > M >>And various members of the DECserver 700 family can boot from flash memory.  >  > 0 > The 700s still command a lot of money on Ebay. > H > The cheaper 90s work with thinwire ethernet, an infrastructure which I, > have just eliminated 2 days ago :-( :-( :-  ( You don't have to use the thinwire port.  ; A 90M includes the software.  At least most do, if not all.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:13:47 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>0 Subject: Re: The Pentium Chronicles (2006.01.31)+ Message-ID: <dronet$l89$1@news01.intel.com>    Neil Rieck wrote: 
 [big snip]L > 4. How would you respond to the claim that the P6 is build on ideas stolen > from Digital Equipment Corp.?  [...]   D      I'm not sure, but ISTRC that the issue was patent infringement,E which does not necessarily imply "stolen".  Two people can (and often D do) invent the same, or very similar, things.  The one to the PatentC Office first gets to "own" the idea.  (I'm no patent expert so I'll B not delve into stories of the incompetence of the Patent Office inC the high-tech arena, nor the issues of "common practice" and "known , art"...or whatever the correct terms are...)  A      I was at SLAC at the time and had absolutely no insight into @ what Intel thought about the matter (well, except what I learnedE later, that they were on the verge of a very large purchase of Alphas ? running VMS to replace their aging VAXes, that those plans were B canceled, and the general move to "build Intel processors on IntelE processors" and displace VMS (and various unixes) was a direct result  of the lawsuit).  
 	Regards, Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:36:18 -0500 , From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@istop.com>0 Subject: Re: The Pentium Chronicles (2006.01.31)= Message-ID: <43e0035a$0$27791$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com>   L I don't know how often I see the myth about porting VMS to i486 or Intel but$ if I had a nickel for every time....  2 Prism was not based on Intel architecture, Period.  K It was a 32 bit development based on ECL and CISC architecture. No Intel in  sight.  K The Alpha from the beginning was a RISC, 64 bit architecture based on CMOS.   L Digital was smart to kill Prism. ECL, c'mon folks, can you say power hungry.G With the number of pins required to get 64 bits on and off chip and the K number of pins required to distribute power across the die, there is no way L that the packaging technology of 1986 could have accommodated anything basedL on ECL. The only packaging technology that had any sense of working well wasC that used in the VAX 9000 and we all know how well that one worked.     4 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message3 news:F8JDf.3494$Iw6.318697@news20.bellglobal.com...  > Folks, > I > I'm very close to finishing Robert Colwell's 2006 IEEE book titled "The H > Pentium Chronicles". This book provides an inside look at the problemsH > technical people encounter when working in large teams. Although it is about H > making chips (mostly about developing the Pentium-Pro with some lesserC > information about the P4) I would say it also applies to software 	 projects. 9 > At least it seems relevant where I'm currently working.  > H > I was surprised to learn that the beginnings of modern RISC technology wereE > begun in the early 1980's by analyzing VAX execution traces and VAX  > micro-code. (Forward, p. xii)  >  >     #####  > F > Chapter 7 has some interesting essays but I'll only mention 5 of the titlesA > which may be of some interest to some people in this newsgroup.  > G > 1. What was Intel thinking with that chip ID tag, which caused such a  public	 > uproar? I > 2. Was the P6 (PentiumPro) project affected by Pentium's floating point  > divider bug?J > 3. Why did Pentium have a flawed floating point divider (FDIV), when its! > predecessor, the i486, did not? L > 4. How would you respond to the claim that the P6 is build on ideas stolen > from Digital Equipment Corp.? G > 5. What did the P6 team think about Intel's Itanium Processor family?  >  > 8. Why did you leave Intel?  >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html >  >  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:26:10 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>0 Subject: Re: The Pentium Chronicles (2006.01.31)G Message-ID: <RsSdnbEX5evYgX3enZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Richard Tomkins wrote:N > I don't know how often I see the myth about porting VMS to i486 or Intel but& > if I had a nickel for every time....  G Even if you did, you certainly wouldn't be receiving another one here:  I how you derived this rant from the post you're purportedly responding to   is difficult to imagine.  E Of course, active investigation into porting VMS to 32-bit x86 *did*  H occur, as part of the Emerald(?) project at DEC (IIRC something like 15 C years ago).  How far it actually got I don't know, but likely some   c.o.v. participant does.   > 4 > Prism was not based on Intel architecture, Period.  B Once again, vigorously disputing a statement that the post you're 0 responding to never came anywhere near implying.   Get a grip.    - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.063 ************************