0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 09 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 79      Contents: Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Blade vs Superdome* Re: Cisco to sink: names Capellas to board* Re: Cisco to sink: names Capellas to board5 Console floppy drive emulation - interleave problems. * Re: Different console prompt "_>" on AS6001 Re: Help! CMUIP TCP/IP software - older versions. & Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems& Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems LDAP authenication% Re: M e z e i finds love in a Keyhole  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  RE: null terminated strings  Re: RE: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings H Re: OpenVMS.org Contributing Editor Robert Gezelter to speak on SoftwareP Re: OpenVMS.org Contributing Editor Robert Gezelter to speak on Software ArchiteP Re: OpenVMS.org Contributing Editor Robert Gezelter to speak on Software Archite> Re: OT: English grammar and the state of today's education :-)> Re: OT: English grammar and the state of today's education :-) Re: PDPs in the news!  Re: PDPs in the news!  Re: SimH V3.5-2 released! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR   Re: VAXstation 2000 boot devices Re: vaxstation 4000vlc Re: vaxstation 4000vlc Re: VS3100 SCSI disks - WTB: Magazine for Compaq SSL2020 Tape Library   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:31:31 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... , Message-ID: <43EA8D59.EDF312D4@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:I > There may be all the obsticles you mention, and more.  However, go back I > to the original statement.  "If I was the #1 person in VMS management". H >   In that situation, I would do whatever it took to gather the contactG > information for as many VMS customers as possible.  Whatever it took!     B OK, i see your text in different light now. (I guess your original- "horseshit" clouded my original reaction :-(      H Sp, if VMS management have not taken steps to fidn out why customers areF leaving, could it be because they were mandated to keep attrition rateC below some number and as long a it is below that number, they don't  worry about it ?  F Lets face it, when they decided to Murder Alpha, they would have takenE this decision with some financial prediction/statistic in hand to say 1 that it would cause an acceptable attrition rate.     H I've used thsi expression before: Is VMS is paliative care ? Decision toH let it die already taken, but enough done to keep it and customers happy? for a number of years ? If that is the case, they don't care if  customers leave.    @ In the context of your statement, VMS management would either beH incompetant for not wanting to be in the loop whenever a VMS custoemr isH lost, or have been told by HP corp not to waste time to find out why VMSL customers are leaving because that has already been factored into the plans.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 18:41:04 -0800 * From: "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net>' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... B Message-ID: <1139452863.960786.88900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > noone wrote: > >  > > I > > I was recently informed of a project to port all of the apps and db's I > > running on OpenVMS to Sun Solaris for NOAA over the next 18 months...  > D > What!?  Not to VMS's new stateroom on the Itanic?  Not to *any* HPG > system?  Not even to Linux or (choke) Windows (where HP could use the J > excuse that something more 'industry-standard' was obviously desired and+ > they just lost out on the hardware side)?   A As HP signed some sort of deal with Sun (according to Inquirer or ? Register - I forget which) to support Solaris on certain X86-64 G systems, I suppose, in theory, HP could still be supplying the hardware A based on the information given. Although it would be difficult to E understand why you wouldn't just go to Sun for the hardware if buying > Solaris X86-64 but clearly some do go elsewhere for just that.  < Still -  probably not likely it's HP hardware but who knows. --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:01:44 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... / Message-ID: <DsmdnUWf_tMcI3feRVn-iQ@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > I >>There may be all the obsticles you mention, and more.  However, go back I >>to the original statement.  "If I was the #1 person in VMS management". H >>  In that situation, I would do whatever it took to gather the contactG >>information for as many VMS customers as possible.  Whatever it took!  >  >  > D > OK, i see your text in different light now. (I guess your original/ > "horseshit" clouded my original reaction :-(    : Well, as already written, it's HP's job, not anyone elses.  H It's been said before, and it's still as true today, it's harder to get 3 a new customer than to retain an existing customer.   F New business is fine, but retaining customers is more important.  Why G you might ask?  Keeping customers gives a company an ongoing source of  ? revenue.  It goes back to what I said years ago, Compaq didn't  0 understand 'customers', they understood 'sales'.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:02:48 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... / Message-ID: <DsmdnUSf_tNdI3feRVn-iQ@libcom.com>    Alan Greig wrote:  >  >  > Dave Froble wrote: > F >> There may be all the obsticles you mention, and more.  However, go C >> back to the original statement.  "If I was the #1 person in VMS  J >> management".  In that situation, I would do whatever it took to gather C >> the contact information for as many VMS customers as possible.    >> Whatever it took! >  > K > Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person  ' > in VMS management" than the last one?  >  >    Maybe nobody is asking?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:45:05 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... , Message-ID: <43EAC8B7.9768A7DA@teksavvy.com>   Alan Greig wrote: J > Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person' > in VMS management" than the last one?   G If VMS' auto-pilot keeps it on the course pre-set by HP, VMS management  don't need to do much.  D On the other hand, maybe they are fighting a huge internal corporateH fight to save VMS and aren't getting any recognition for this behind the scenes work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:15:24 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Blade vs Superdome , Message-ID: <43EAC1C4.B085E611@teksavvy.com>  ' IBM just announced a new Blade cabinet.    ##D IBM's new 15.75-inch-tall BladeCenter H chassis is 3.5 inches tallerA than its predecessor. However, the design increases internal data @ transfer capacity tenfold to 40 gigabits per second; adds faster= InfiniBand and Ethernet networking options; and includes more H sophisticated self-management features. The system still accommodates as) many as 14 blade servers, Big Blue said.   ##  8 I assume that HP's offering will pretty much match this.    E Do such blades start to approach the performance of the interconnects ? between CPUs in Superdome systems ? Or are they still orders of C magnitudes slower (in terms of interconnects between CPUs only, not 
 actual CPUs).   9 Or let me rephrase the question: Will Blade architectures B eventually/soon scale to compete/replace Superdome class systems ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:38:49 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: Cisco to sink: names Capellas to board / Message-ID: <_8SdnbYGjvMOp3feRVn-sA@libcom.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > I >> I wonder who will be the suitor. Would Microsoft buy Cisco ? They cold L >> extend their monopoly to networking and teak standards the way they want. >  > H > Would the European Union and USA allow such a merger?  I have a hunch K > that there would be so many conditions on the deal, that Cisco would not   > be interesting to M$.   ' Getting a bit off topic, and political.   H We currently have an administration that allowed extravegant gouging of B gas and oil prices when Hurricane Katrina took out production and H refining facilities.  What makes you think they would give a damn about 
 MS and Cisco?   I Keep in mind how the antitrust case against MS pretty much died off once   dubya took office.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:37:42 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>3 Subject: Re: Cisco to sink: names Capellas to board * Message-ID: <43EAB906.9588CF1@comcast.net>   Dave Froble wrote: >  > Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > > JF Mezei wrote:  > > K > >> I wonder who will be the suitor. Would Microsoft buy Cisco ? They cold N > >> extend their monopoly to networking and teak standards the way they want. > >  > > I > > Would the European Union and USA allow such a merger?  I have a hunch L > > that there would be so many conditions on the deal, that Cisco would not > > be interesting to M$.  > ) > Getting a bit off topic, and political.  > I > We currently have an administration that allowed extravegant gouging of C > gas and oil prices when Hurricane Katrina took out production and I > refining facilities.  What makes you think they would give a damn about  > MS and Cisco?   G I still think it's premature to be writing Cicso's epitaph. One quarter ; of down numbers is hardly an indicator of future direction.   C Recall also that *EVERY*one, *EVERY*where felt some effect from the H recent surges in crude oil prices, and purchases were likely foregone or delayed as a result.  B Make plans as you will, but let's stay for the long term before we follow our knee-jerk instincts.    ...IMHO, YMMV...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:15:25 -05002 From: "Timothy Stark" <fsword7_nospam@comcast.net>> Subject: Console floppy drive emulation - interleave problems.0 Message-ID: <b-6dnYLr48ImOHfeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>   Hello folks,  K I am working on console floppy drive emulation on my TS10 emulator (11/780  J mode).  I found a problem with interleave method (sector ordering).  I am I looking for interleave calculation for RX01 device. Does anyone have any   information about that?   I I have some floppy images from Tim's archives that were in linear sector  L ordering but OpenVMS uses soft interleave method for sector ordering.  When K I tried to mount it, mount stalled and displayed weird characters in label  J names, etc.  However, I created it and was able access anything on my own E RX01 disk image.  I was comparing between disk images and discovered  5 different sector ordering between them.  For example,    Linear      2:1 Interleave ------      --------------    1    =>     9    2    =>     11     3    =>     13       etc...   M I am looking for Files-11 specs for RX01 disk images, etc.  Does anyone have   a copy?    Thanks!  Tim    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 13:29:25 -0800 ( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>3 Subject: Re: Different console prompt "_>" on AS600 C Message-ID: <1139434165.940570.223280@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   F David from Islandco sent me a note; Ctrl-C breaks out of that mode.  IG don't know how it managed to get into that mode in the first place, and G there was no error messaging or crash dump to review, but the system is  now back up and running fine.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 20:53:36 -05002 From: "Timothy Stark" <fsword7_nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: Help! CMUIP TCP/IP software - older versions.0 Message-ID: <v9-dnXMLHrwBPXfeRVn-jQ@comcast.com>  M "Graham Burley" <burley.not-this@encompasserve-or-this.org> wrote in message  3 news:43E87B7D.284B578F@encompasserve-or-this.org...  > JF Mezei wrote:  >> > v6.3 files can be found here:  > 8 > ftp://ftp.decuserve.org/decus/vms/sig_tapes/lt92b/cmu/  L Thanks for give me a pointer to that.  I found them and now have them in my L handy.  I read readme documents and it said that v6.3 will work on VMS v4.4 J to v4.7.  v6.6 will work on VMS v5.0 or above.  I do not know about older E version of VMS (before v4.4) would be work with CMUIP v6.3 or so yet.    Thanks!  Tim    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:41:03 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems / Message-ID: <_8SdnbEGjvOKpnfeRVn-sA@libcom.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <1139372552.966466.315630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "greg.chabala@gmail.com" <greg.chabala@gmail.com> writes:  > D >>Okay, scratch the DHCP then. Do you have a step by step plan I canB >>follow? I think I've already tried to do it the 'intuitive' way. >  > H > This post makes no sense, based on the order in which messages arrived > at my newsreader.  > F > Please always quote enough context, in this case to indicate to what2 > the "Okay, scratch the DHCP then" is a response. > < > Do not assume everybody's newsreader is the same as yours. > > > Do not assume messages arrive in the same order to everyone, > or with the same certainty.   H I normally get threads in some sembelance of order, but this one seemed  to fragment badly.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 15:03:08 -0500- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> / Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems I Message-ID: <8660a3a10602081203v64392638g6de5275de5268260@mail.gmail.com>   3 On 2/8/06, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:L > > In article <1139372552.966466.315630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "gr=6 eg.chabala@gmail.com" <greg.chabala@gmail.com> writes: > > F > >>Okay, scratch the DHCP then. Do you have a step by step plan I canD > >>follow? I think I've already tried to do it the 'intuitive' way. > >  > > J > > This post makes no sense, based on the order in which messages arrived > > at my newsreader.  > > H > > Please always quote enough context, in this case to indicate to what4 > > the "Okay, scratch the DHCP then" is a response. > > > > > Do not assume everybody's newsreader is the same as yours. > > @ > > Do not assume messages arrive in the same order to everyone, > > or with the same certainty.  > I > I normally get threads in some sembelance of order, but this one seemed  > to fragment badly. >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > 170 Grimplin Road  > Vanderbilt, PA  15486  >   " What about thread talking you are?   WWWebb   --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 13:00:30 -0800  From: schortingh_j@mercer.edu  Subject: LDAP authenication B Message-ID: <1139432430.684442.76780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  D We are reviewing the possibility of having our vms systems / windows@ applications authenicate aganist  the ldap included with red hatG enterprise.  Can the ldap (eak) be used with acme to allow this type of  authenication.   Thanks.    Jim Schortinghouse VMS Systems Manager  Mercer University  478.301.2846 schortingh_j@Mercer.edu    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed,  8 Feb 2006 12:12:33 -0700 (MST) 5 From: Borked Pseudo Mailed <nobody@pseudo.borked.net> . Subject: Re: M e z e i finds love in a Keyhole@ Message-ID: <5aec75e66f265ffbdd430bba4bc79610@pseudo.borked.net>  / [message may be duplicated due to server error]   R Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@earthlink.net> wrote:   >M e z e i is a PIG wrote: >  >> Gregory Morrow D ><gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >M e z e i is a PIG wrote:  >> >E >> >> JF Mezei sockpupetting as "nobody <nobody@nobody.org>" trolled:  >> >> M >> >> >If you sit 3 obese women next to each other, should the airline charge G >> >> >for extra seats ?  It might form one big ugly blob of fat with 6  >saggingD >> >> >breasts and 3 heads on a 3 seat section, but they woudln't be$ >> >> >inconveniencing anybody else. >> >> D >> >> But they'd probably be much better company on a flight than an# >> >> insane psycho troll like you.  >> >> ( >> >> And more decent human beings, too. >> >> E >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/5e814528bf75efa9  >> >>  >> > >> >C >> >The way that JF talks about women one has to wonder if he has a  >> >girlfriend...  >>D >> Aside from the inflatable one he keeps under his bed?  Nah....... >>K >> >Did he get dumped on by Connie Wong or Ellen or Sheryl Mexic I wonder -  >is D >> >that why he apparently harbours so much bitterness to the fairer
 >sex...??? >>L >> Maybe the stress of having to sleep with his fat, hairy, sweaty Hungarian >mother 2 >> and satisfy her sexual needs is getting to him. >>J >> He needs to be with a real woman for once so he can see what it's like.J >> Maybe a three-day weekend in the Poconos with Ellen, Sheryl, and Connie >> might do the trick. >  > K >Except that Connie wields a MEAN cleaver and he might be in some danger of . >her going "chop - chop" to his "salami"...!!! > L >Ellen would just spend time blowing cig smoke into his face and does anyoneF >really think that Sheryl has *ever* been capable of having an orgasm?  B Only when Rolando Zamora works his magic with his fingers..... <g>  . >I vote we fix him up with Mary Ann Keyhole...  : She's a whooooole lotta woman ..... can Mezei handle it???   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:02:01 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <1ZKdnVqNRb6e3XfeRVn-rQ@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:< > In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDEEMOHDAA.dallen@nist.gov>,( > 	"Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes: >  >> >>>-----Original Message----- G >>>From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]On  >>>Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon. >>>Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:05 AM >>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com' >>>Subject: Re: null terminated strings  >>>  >>> = >>>In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKEMLHDAA.dallen@nist.gov>, ) >>>	"Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:  >>> O >>>>>the language, you can do really weird things with it. One old language let H >>>>>you equivalence a statement label with a numeric array. You deposit >>>>>binary codeG >>>>>into the array and branch to the label defined as the beginning of  >>>  >>>the code. >>>  >>>>Sounds like C to me ;-)  >>> F >>>Sorry to disappoint you, but the same can be done in COBOL, Fortran >>P >>Not disappointed and not surprised - just stirring the pot Bill. Been around aC >>long time and done it in several languages - usually by accident.  >  > H > Oh, I know a lot of us have been around for a long time.  I think mostF > of this is more for those who haven't.  I have done it frequently onH > purpose and, I am sure, once or twice by accident. :-)  The problem isK > just like in other endeavors people tend to look at the past with today's E > eyes and can't understand that there actually were reasons why some C > things that seem so bad today were done.  Like 2 character dates.  >  > bill >   F It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to do F something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such, I they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless absolutely  C necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use.   A But if one is using a language that allows one to stumble into a  F dangerous situation without even knowing, then the choice of tools is  flawed.  (My opinion.)  I This whole thing is like a religious discussion.  I doubt the adhearants  A to either side of the discussion will be swayed by any arguments.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 14:21:30 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <ja+fcLeBKRyY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <44ufl4F40ibfU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  ! > I find it interesting that even E > those languages that brag about how strongly typed and bullet-proof E > they are all have backdoors to do the things that C does naturally.   A The question is, how readily can an auditor find case where these  unsafe techniques are used.    > Even Ada!!  # $ SEARCH *.ADA UNCHECKED_CONVERSION    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 16:18:32 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: RE: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <JhLJ4NT65BpO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKEMLHDAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:M >> the language, you can do really weird things with it. One old language let G >> you equivalence a statement label with a numeric array. You deposit   >> binary codeO >> into the array and branch to the label defined as the beginning of the code.  >> >  > Sounds like C to me ;-)   F    I could do that with IBM Fortran, but not with VAX Fortran (I'm not1    sure about DEC Fortran, but I don't think so).   A    IBM Fortran made both subroutine and common block names global D    symbols.  You could store code in a common block and call it.  We7    thought about using this to hide a security routine.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 23:04:53 GMT . From: JONESD@ecr6.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)( Subject: Re: RE: null terminated strings: Message-ID: <dsdtel$l5i$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  3 In message <JhLJ4NT65BpO@eisner.encompasserve.org>, ?   koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: a >In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKEMLHDAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:  >>> ... You deposit  >>> binary code P >>> into the array and branch to the label defined as the beginning of the code. >>>  > G >   I could do that with IBM Fortran, but not with VAX Fortran (I'm not 2 >   sure about DEC Fortran, but I don't think so).  G You could pass arrays to subroutines in VAX FORTRAN that declared those K arguments as external functions.  I once wrote an image processing function H that read a convolution matrix from a file and generated code on the flyI (optimizing out any zero multiplies) to do the convolution. I never tried O passing an array as a label (alternate return point), but I imagine there being  a good chance it working.       < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 271-6718- Ohio State University        |      Internet: L 140 W. 19th St.              |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:43:04 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings, Message-ID: <43EA900E.66465A06@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:G > It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to do G > something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such, J > they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless absolutelyE > necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use.     # There is another wait to word this.   F If a language has too many restrictions, the programmer will find uglyH workaround/kludges to perform stuff which the pedantic language prevents him from doing.   E C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what  needs to be done.   : COBOL hjas string size management. a MOVE command will notG buffer-overflow because the generated code knows the size of the source , and target buffers and enforce those limits.  E But if you want to address individual characters in a field, you then G need a kludge to have those characters mapped to an array, but then you B lose buffer oflerflow protection because your logic takes over the moving and boundary checking.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:16:21 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4ordjgszgicya@hyrrokkin>  9 On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis    <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote:   3 > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes in article   E > <ops4nr8iqczgicya@hyrrokkin> dated Wed, 08 Feb 2006 06:37:20 -0800: K >> On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 08:57:52 -0500, sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> wrote:  >>J >>> The language compilers I used generally did no range checking unless aC >>> debug/range check option is specified during compile. This adds  >>> substantial L >>> overhead to program execution to check for string and array bounds. It   >>> isH >>> normally removed for production execution and you lose the automatic >>> protection. E >>>  This range checking for all code movement is not needed. Range    >>> checking >>> isD >>> only really needed at the point where data from 'strangers' is   >>> introduced >>> to the program.  >> > J >> Then you are not using the right language.  There is range checking andK >> then there is range checking.  The one you are referring to is a shotgun J >> blast   approach, which resolves to generalized system exceptions.  TheH >> correct way to do it   is to code in ON-conditions into your code, inJ >> other words. failure tolerant   design and implementation.  The problemL >> with languages like C, because of the low abstraction level is you have   >> to J >> write so much more code, which of course,   is not only reinventing theC >> wheel each time, but is a source of potential bugs.    With such K >> facilities built in to the compiler you lower your development costs      >> andG >> you improve your reliability aand reduce your maintenance.  Now, why = >> wouldn't   you do that?  ('you' is intended to be generic)  > K > PL/I works the way he describes, Tom.  The /CHECK option defaults to off.  > D > STRINGRANGE                     Source Listing                    E > 8-FEB-2006 17:02:12    DEC PL/I V4.2A-112                  Page   1 D > 01                                                                ; > 8-FEB-2006 17:02:04    USER:[LEWIS.TEST]stringrange.PLI;5  > H >    |	      1 /* STRINGRANGE.PLI Keith Lewis  8-FEB-2006 16:53:25.25 */
 > 	      21 > 	      3 stringrange: procedure options (main);  >        1      4 " >        1      5 dcl 1 structure,, >        1      6         2 s	char (10) var,A >        1      7         2 t	(100) fixed bin (7) init ((*)(65));  >        1      8 dcl c	char;  >        1      9 + >        1     10     on stringrange begin; B >        1     11         put skip list ('Stringrange condition'); >        1     12     end; >        1     13 ! >        1     14     s = 'TEST'; + >        1     15     c = substr(s, 20, 1); E >        1     16     put skip list ('20th char of string is ' || c);  >        1     17 " >        1     18 end stringrange; >  >  >  COMMAND LINE  >  ------- ----  >  > PLI stringrange/LIS  >  > $ run stringrange  >  > 20th char of string is A > ? > (Notice that the STRINGRANGE ON-condition was not triggered.)   C Your right, I was thinking (I guess) about my Tru64 implementation.  (senior moment:-)    > ) > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS?   - No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP?    > 2 > --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org@ > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:22:59 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4orolzgzgicya@hyrrokkin>  H On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 10:16:50 -0500, sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote: K >> On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 08:57:52 -0500, sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> wrote:  >>J >>> The language compilers I used generally did no range checking unless aE >>> debug/range check option is specified during compile. This adds   E >>> substantial overhead to program execution to check for string and G >  >> array bounds. It is normally removed for production execution and ( >  >> you lose the automatic protection.C >>>  This range checking for all code movement is not needed. Range K >>> checking is only really needed at the point where data from 'strangers' # >  >> is introduced to the program. I >>  Then you are not using the right language.  There is range checking   I >> and then there is range checking.  The one you are referring to is a   A >> shotgun blast approach, which resolves to generalized system    >> exceptions.  The J >  > correct way to do it is to code in ON-conditions into your code, in   > other I >  > words. failure tolerant design and implementation.  The problem with  > G > They are not generalized system exceptions. The compiler adds code to I > the boundary checking each time the a string or array is used. I am not C > sure which language is involved (basic, dcl, etc.) but the global I > ON-conditions also involve code being inserted into the compile output.  > J > On-conditions are not necessarily 'quick' commands to wait for somethingD > to happen. There really are two kinds. One waits for and handles aH > system exception (like memory addressing, under/overflow, protection).C > The other involves adding code (or function calls) to check for a = > condition each time the potential for the situation occurs.  > J >  > languages like C, because of the low abstraction level is you have toJ >  > write so much more code, which of course, is not only reinventing the> >  > wheel each time, but is a source of potential bugs.  WithF >> such facilities built in to the compiler you lower your developmentI >  > costs and you improve your reliability aand reduce your maintenance. # >  > Now, why wouldn't you do that?  > I > Compilers don't necessarily have the ability to intelligently determine F > when the added code should be invoked so it is done each time. DoingH > it yourself allows you to perform these checks when you determine thatF > it is necessary. Even with faster machines, automatic bound checking$ > overhead can still be significant. > J True, the VMS PL/I isn't quite as powerful as the Tru64 version, which hadH the ability to turn on certain conditons on individual statements by use of a prefix.  J Never-the-less, the point is that certain languages are more suitable than( others for writing failure tolerant code% >>  ('you' is intended to be generic)    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 21:43:21 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <z3MwITnTiJej@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43EA900E.66465A06@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote:H >> It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to doH >> something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such,K >> they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless absolutely F >> necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use. >  > % > There is another wait to word this.  > H > If a language has too many restrictions, the programmer will find uglyJ > workaround/kludges to perform stuff which the pedantic language prevents > him from doing.  > G > C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what  > needs to be done.  > < > COBOL hjas string size management. a MOVE command will notI > buffer-overflow because the generated code knows the size of the source . > and target buffers and enforce those limits. > G > But if you want to address individual characters in a field, you then I > need a kludge to have those characters mapped to an array, but then you D > lose buffer oflerflow protection because your logic takes over the > moving and boundary checking.    You do not lose that with Ada.  !         User_Name := Person_Name;          if User_Name [1] = 'L'         then$           Might_Be_Larry (User_Name)         end if;   C An exception would be raised on User_Name [-27] or User_Name [5555] ' (depending on how the type was defined.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:09:09 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>    David Jones wrote:5 > In message <JhLJ4NT65BpO@eisner.encompasserve.org>, A >   koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > b >>In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKEMLHDAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes: >> >>>>... You deposit  >>>>binary code P >>>>into the array and branch to the label defined as the beginning of the code. >>>> >>G >>  I could do that with IBM Fortran, but not with VAX Fortran (I'm not 2 >>  sure about DEC Fortran, but I don't think so). >  > I > You could pass arrays to subroutines in VAX FORTRAN that declared those M > arguments as external functions.  I once wrote an image processing function J > that read a convolution matrix from a file and generated code on the flyK > (optimizing out any zero multiplies) to do the convolution. I never tried Q > passing an array as a label (alternate return point), but I imagine there being  > a good chance it working.  >  >  > > > David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 271-6718/ > Ohio State University        |      Internet: N > 140 W. 19th St.              |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu< > Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu > 3 > Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.   H I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in B a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  G This is one of the few methods that I'm aware of in a language such as  I VAX Basic to bypass various types of checking.  As said by others, there  G are always methods to defeat the compiler/language.  Sometimes such is   useful.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:16:12 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <ZaidnQjuNs17XHfenZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > G >>It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to do G >>something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such, J >>they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless absolutelyE >>necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use.  >  >  > % > There is another wait to word this.  > H > If a language has too many restrictions, the programmer will find uglyJ > workaround/kludges to perform stuff which the pedantic language prevents > him from doing.  > G > C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what  > needs to be done.   ( Ok, I'll refrain from the 'H' word.  :-)  F If an array is dimensioned for 100 elements, under what circumstances E would one ever want the language to allow a reference to element 120?   G My opinion is that the computer is there to do the grunt work, not me.  A Why should I be required to do such?  Heck, I don't even declare  + variables.  Let the compiler sift them out.   < > COBOL hjas string size management. a MOVE command will notI > buffer-overflow because the generated code knows the size of the source . > and target buffers and enforce those limits. > G > But if you want to address individual characters in a field, you then I > need a kludge to have those characters mapped to an array, but then you D > lose buffer oflerflow protection because your logic takes over the > moving and boundary checking.    Why?  H What's wrong with MID(<string>,77,1) to reference the 77th character in E a string?  Note, if the string is only 50 characters in length, this   returns the null string.  F What's wrong with a language that gives you some useful tools, rather   than making you do all the work?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 23:26:39 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <tmffwodrqLPx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   J > I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in D > a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.    Ada and Pascal are two examples.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 01:17:42 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <U-ydnaLyRaoaQ3feRVn-rQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:    ...   7 > Don't tell me that you could do without range checks.   C I guess you missed the post where I already did.  For preallocated  I static strings, macros can perform the same service without any run-time  	 overhead.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 14:25:07 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Q Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org Contributing Editor Robert Gezelter to speak on Software 3 Message-ID: <DZh8FB85qmqr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <1ZKdnVWNRb6F3nfeRVn-rQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:X >> In article <00A5101D.C918D5E9@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>  r >>>In article <1139399097.244656.213290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Bob Gezelter" <gezelter@rlgsc.com> writes: >>>  >>>>J >>>>Robert Gezelter, CSA, CSE, CDP, a Contributing Editor for OpenVMS.org,C >>>>will present "Architectural Techniques for Interoperability and J >>>>Coexistence" on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 at 12:15 PM in Middletown,I >>>>New Jersey. This session is hosted by the New Jersey Coast Chapter of G >>>>the IEEE Computer Society. The IT community in the New Jersey Coast  >>>>area is invited to attend. >>   >>  J >>>You are only speaking for 45 minutes.  It would take me longer to drive+ >>>to Middletown than you will be speaking.  >>   >>  K >> But some comp.os.vms readers are in California.  Should Robert's talk be E >> extended to last 36 hours to match the required drive for them :-)  > ? > You drive rather fast, don't stop for fuel, and get no sleep?    Not me, Californians.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:15:12 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org Contributing Editor Robert Gezelter to speak on Software Archite / Message-ID: <1ZKdnVWNRb6F3nfeRVn-rQ@libcom.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:W > In article <00A5101D.C918D5E9@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > q >>In article <1139399097.244656.213290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Bob Gezelter" <gezelter@rlgsc.com> writes:  >> >>> I >>>Robert Gezelter, CSA, CSE, CDP, a Contributing Editor for OpenVMS.org, B >>>will present "Architectural Techniques for Interoperability andI >>>Coexistence" on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 at 12:15 PM in Middletown, H >>>New Jersey. This session is hosted by the New Jersey Coast Chapter ofF >>>the IEEE Computer Society. The IT community in the New Jersey Coast >>>area is invited to attend.  >  > I >>You are only speaking for 45 minutes.  It would take me longer to drive * >>to Middletown than you will be speaking. >  > J > But some comp.os.vms readers are in California.  Should Robert's talk beD > extended to last 36 hours to match the required drive for them :-)  = You drive rather fast, don't stop for fuel, and get no sleep?     Is the Cannonball running again?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 00:54:03 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org Contributing Editor Robert Gezelter to speak on Software Archite 0 Message-ID: <00A51071.E03584A3@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <qptKxQggoNeZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >  > V >In article <00A5101D.C918D5E9@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:r >> In article <1139399097.244656.213290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Bob Gezelter" <gezelter@rlgsc.com> writes: >>>  >>> I >>>Robert Gezelter, CSA, CSE, CDP, a Contributing Editor for OpenVMS.org, B >>>will present "Architectural Techniques for Interoperability andI >>>Coexistence" on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 at 12:15 PM in Middletown, H >>>New Jersey. This session is hosted by the New Jersey Coast Chapter ofF >>>the IEEE Computer Society. The IT community in the New Jersey Coast >>>area is invited to attend.  > J >> You are only speaking for 45 minutes.  It would take me longer to drive+ >> to Middletown than you will be speaking.  > I >But some comp.os.vms readers are in California.  Should Robert's talk be C >extended to last 36 hours to match the required drive for them :-)   I It's a significant drive for Bob too.  I'd think he'd speak for more than D 45 mins -- especially since his commute will be serveral times that. --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 11:07:50 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>G Subject: Re: OT: English grammar and the state of today's education :-) B Message-ID: <1139422429.676078.48780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Steven M. Schweda wrote:* > From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> > K > > I don't think the above examples are quite what Benjamin Franklin meant = > > when he said "We hold these truths to be self-evident"...  > : > http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/hrintro/wehold.htm > I >       Although the first battles of the American Revolution occurred in I >       1775, the Declaration of Independence by the American colonies in I >       1776 formally announced the revolution.  Its principal author was E >       Thomas Jefferson, who later became the third president of the  >       United States. > J > President Franklin may have said this at some time, but he did not write@ > the document.  (I'm sure that he was president of _something_,G > somewhere, sometime.)  On the bright side, the folks at state.gov can 7 > use "its" properly, which is getting to be a novelty.  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818 [...]     E >From a Firesign Theatre album (probably from "Everything You Know Is  Wrong"):  F Benajmin Franklin: ... The only president of the United States ... who+ never *was* president of the United States.   4 (The ellipses are for dramatic pause, not omission.)     AEF    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 11:07:38 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>G Subject: Re: OT: English grammar and the state of today's education :-) C Message-ID: <1139422552.927881.277320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Steven M. Schweda wrote:* > From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> > K > > I don't think the above examples are quite what Benjamin Franklin meant = > > when he said "We hold these truths to be self-evident"...  > : > http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/hrintro/wehold.htm > I >       Although the first battles of the American Revolution occurred in I >       1775, the Declaration of Independence by the American colonies in I >       1776 formally announced the revolution.  Its principal author was E >       Thomas Jefferson, who later became the third president of the  >       United States. > J > President Franklin may have said this at some time, but he did not write@ > the document.  (I'm sure that he was president of _something_,G > somewhere, sometime.)  On the bright side, the folks at state.gov can 7 > use "its" properly, which is getting to be a novelty.  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818 [...]     E >From a Firesign Theatre album (probably from "Everything You Know Is  Wrong"):  F Benajmin Franklin: ... The only president of the United States ... who+ never *was* president of the United States.   4 (The ellipses are for dramatic pause, not omission.)     AEF    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 16:15:42 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: PDPs in the news!3 Message-ID: <tdAoIwoDFvMs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <ln1ku1178342l419eeosa3qe4s9000137j@4ax.com>, Allison-nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net writes: > A > Those of us that live with them and enjoy the features are hard B > pressed to find so called modern machines however fast they are , > as satisfying or plain hard core reliable.  )    !!! What will you offer me for my J11?       ;-)   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:20:28 +0000 (UTC)7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)  Subject: Re: PDPs in the news!( Message-ID: <dse1sc$h5v$1@pcls4.std.com>  = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:   x >In article <890539d90602080243j27520c65ga1adae2cb4ea161@mail.gmail.com>, Carl Friedberg <frida.fried@gmail.com> writes:, >> On 6 Feb 2006 08:03:59 -0600, Bob Koehler$ >>>    seen a Purple Data Processor. >>>  >>> : >> Bob, Please, the PDP1,5,6,7,10s  were NOT purple.. Carl  C >  Niether is the 12 down at the Smithsonian (or is that a 15?), or " >  the Micro PDP-8 I used to have.  E If I remember correctly, PDPs of the era that used that large plastic F console switches had a different color scheme for each processor line.H PDP-11s were purple and magenta, PDP-8s were yellowish and orange-brown,G one of the others was medium and light greenish.  I think being hideous 1 was a design requirement for each color pair. :-)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:03:36 -05002 From: "Timothy Stark" <fsword7_nospam@comcast.net>! Subject: Re: SimH V3.5-2 released 0 Message-ID: <aoydnR-mYJlpP3feRVn-pQ@comcast.com>  G "Christian Corti" <Christian.Corti@studserv.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote in  - message news:kbl9b3-tom.ln1@news.online.de... E > In alt.sys.pdp11 Bob Supnik <bob.supnik@sicortex.nospam.com> wrote: 0 >> Yeah, I knew I should have written this up ;)E > Now here's the next problem: PUTR can't read these disk images. The G > console floppy (part no. AS-T213A-DE RSI VAX-11/780 STANDARD CONSOLE)  > mounted in PUTR: > ) > (C:\TEMP)>mount x: disk.dsk /rx01 /rt11  > (C:\TEMP)>dir x: > [...]  > JKHJKH.JKH 16448  02-XXX-2004  > ?Corrupt directory  K That looks like interleave not implemented in Simh emulator or PUTR.  Simh  I emulator uses linear sector ordering in console floppy drive and OpenVMS  M uses soft interleave ordering.  PUTR uses different sector ordering like 2:1   interleave method.   Tim    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:47:42 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43EABB5D.535D8228@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>F > >>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than> > >>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). > >>>  > >>. > >>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >  > > K > > Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versions I > > of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this.  > >  > J > I know what you meant.  My post was a not subtle way of saying "go pound= > salt".  I really don't understand these types of requests.    D You're obviously not effected by ISV abandonment that locks you into V5.5-2 or such.    > It's hard I > enough keeping the current version of any software working.  To ask for J > a feature to be placed in an older version assumes that it can easily be > plugged in.   G Well, no it doesn't. Speaking for myself, at least, I realize that code F - especially code as old as VMS BACKUP, even the current incarnation -= is likely not sufficiently modular as to allow for extension, E enhancement, etc. without a fair amount of work. I just don't dismiss G the possibility out-of-hand that it may be possible, and that those who > lag behind through no fault if their own would appreciate someD enhancements to their otherwise burdensome environment (say "DILOG",  "CMD", "CIQBA", "Emulex", etc.).  < > This assumption too many times will be invalid.  To expectJ > an in-depth analysis of every prior version of any utility is asking way > too much.   E A quick look-see would probably be sufficient to say whether it looks G possible or whether the "looker" shuddered at the thought of attempting  to tackle the older code.   @ Along the same line as "innocent until proven guilty", how 'bout" "possible until proven otherwise"?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:50:17 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43EABBF8.D9567E1E@comcast.net>    John Reagan wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>F > >>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than> > >>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). > >>>  > >>. > >>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >  > > K > > Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versions I > > of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this.  > >  > G > We have some rather strict guidelines about backporting.  In general, I > customers who have stayed with older versions of OpenVMS, do so because  > they are stable.  H Some of them, yes. Others simply have no choice. The ISV has vanished orE moved on to the The Dark Side, VESTing is not possible and/or lack of H source code are likely other reasons for lagging behind. Hardly anyone's "fault".  F > Backporting new features, while a worthy goal, increases the risk ofA > instability (Guy can't be perfect all of the time).  BACKUP, in G > particular, demands even more paranoia since it is complex, and it is # > hard to test in all combinations.  > F > Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money> > riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen.  H Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so8 little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:32:37 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR/ Message-ID: <R7-dnXbmJMBeWHfeRVn-gg@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>David J Dachtera wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>  >>>  >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>> >>>>F >>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than> >>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). >>>>>  >>>>. >>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. >>>  >>> J >>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsH >>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. >>>  >>J >>I know what you meant.  My post was a not subtle way of saying "go pound= >>salt".  I really don't understand these types of requests.   >  > F > You're obviously not effected by ISV abandonment that locks you into > V5.5-2 or such.   A While that is an issue for some, there is no linkage to what VMS  9 development can/should do with old versions of utilities.    >>It's hard I >>enough keeping the current version of any software working.  To ask for J >>a feature to be placed in an older version assumes that it can easily be >>plugged in.  >  > I > Well, no it doesn't. Speaking for myself, at least, I realize that code H > - especially code as old as VMS BACKUP, even the current incarnation -? > is likely not sufficiently modular as to allow for extension, G > enhancement, etc. without a fair amount of work. I just don't dismiss I > the possibility out-of-hand that it may be possible, and that those who @ > lag behind through no fault if their own would appreciate someF > enhancements to their otherwise burdensome environment (say "DILOG"," > "CMD", "CIQBA", "Emulex", etc.). >  > < >>This assumption too many times will be invalid.  To expectJ >>an in-depth analysis of every prior version of any utility is asking way >>too much.  >  > G > A quick look-see would probably be sufficient to say whether it looks I > possible or whether the "looker" shuddered at the thought of attempting  > to tackle the older code.   D No, a quick look-see is NOT sufficient.  I cannot count the times I F broke something because of a quick look-see.  Many times when someone E thought that their mod should be simple.  Guess who is to blame when   something is broke?   B > Along the same line as "innocent until proven guilty", how 'bout$ > "possible until proven otherwise"? >   F No, it's more like not possible until proven otherwise.  That proving I otherwise would include a through analysis of the existing app, what the  9 mod would do to existing capabilities, and a significant  E re-certification of the application, including all capabilities, not    just the newly added capability.  H I just did a quicky fix on Monday, and immediately received teeth marks H on my ass.  Maybe I'll never learn, but I cannot condemn those who seem  to have learned.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:34:28 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR/ Message-ID: <R7-dnXHmJMCwW3feRVn-gg@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > John Reagan wrote: >  >>David J Dachtera wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>  >>>  >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>> >>>>F >>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than> >>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). >>>>>  >>>>. >>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. >>>  >>> J >>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsH >>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. >>>  >>G >>We have some rather strict guidelines about backporting.  In general, I >>customers who have stayed with older versions of OpenVMS, do so because  >>they are stable. >  > J > Some of them, yes. Others simply have no choice. The ISV has vanished orG > moved on to the The Dark Side, VESTing is not possible and/or lack of J > source code are likely other reasons for lagging behind. Hardly anyone's
 > "fault". >  > F >>Backporting new features, while a worthy goal, increases the risk ofA >>instability (Guy can't be perfect all of the time).  BACKUP, in G >>particular, demands even more paranoia since it is complex, and it is # >>hard to test in all combinations.  >>F >>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money> >>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. >  > J > Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so: > little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS. >    Ok, I see how it works.    Someone else shafts you.   VMS engineering gets the blame.    Is that right?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:40:52 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>) Subject: Re: VAXstation 2000 boot devices + Message-ID: <43EAB9C3.4B4D9D6D@comcast.net>    Richard Tomkins wrote: > M > You'd also have to create a new queue manager as the node name is embedded.   D Depends. You may need to change the /ON list if it mentions nodes byF name, but you shouldn't need to start over from scratch. Just remember= about QMAN$MASTER and such (I'll not attempt to duplicate the  documentation here).   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:48:11 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> Subject: Re: vaxstation 4000vlc 0 Message-ID: <uPedndJOfv2ZPXfeRVn-rQ@bresnan.com>   Dave Froble wrote:   > GreyCloud wrote: > 2 >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >>G >>> In article <7sZFf.16152$wl.1194@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "Colin @ >>> Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> writes: >>> D >>>> There's may be a block size limit in the boot ROM code for the  >>>> maximum size F >>>> of disc you can boot from. Many of the earlier VAXes had trouble  >>>> bootingE >>>> from discs greater than around 1Gbyte. Data discs should be OK,  
 >>>> provided I >>>> that you're running a more recent version of VMS - there was a size  
 >>>> limit) >>>> change around V5.5-2 / V6.2 I think.  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> G >>> I believe this was only for the VAXstation 3100, not the VAXstation  >>> 4000, series.  >>>  >>I >> I've got a 2Gb drive in mine.  And it spins at 10k.  A bit pricey but  0 >> it did speed up things like the help command. >> > > > Do you have the help library decompressed?  That is helpful. >   E Yes I do.  I moved from a slow rpm drive to a higher rate.  Seems to   work so far.     --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 20:53:44 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>  Subject: Re: vaxstation 4000vlc 2 Message-ID: <43EAAEB8.5010900@applied-synergy.com>   Cliff Miller wrote: H > Is there a limit to the size of hard drive you can use with a 4000VLC? > thanks - Cliff  I The VLC does not have the boot disk limitations of the VAXstation 3100s.  C   I'm sure that there is some limit to the size of the disk, but I   haven't hit it yet.   H If you are planning on installing the disk internally, however, you may G have to check how much heat is generated.  The VLC does not have a lot  + of cooling for an internally mounted drive.   + Externally mounted should not be a problem.   
 Good luck!   --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 20:31:16 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>  Subject: Re: VS3100 SCSI disks2 Message-ID: <43EAA973.2030602@applied-synergy.com>   Alan Scott wrote: N > Thanks for the correction.    Our people who were trying to use larger SCSI M > disks with old VS3100s/4000s were trying to use a single 4GB external boot  N > device to replace the internal drive (RZ24?), which they found hard to swap O > quickly if/when a drive failed.    I got them to buy vintage RZ55/6 external  M > enclosures and disks eventually, these booted fine, though fussiness about  J > the external cables and terminators still made reconfiguration a little D > problematic.    They're still running, with VMS 5.1 or .2 I think.  B If you are running 5.1 or 5.2 there is something else to consider.  G A VAXstation 3100 has a 1GB boot drive limitation.  It supports larger  I data drives.  The VAXstation 4000 does not limit either the boot or data   drives.   C However, VMS 5.1 and 5.2 have a 1GB size limit for ALL SCSI (DKxx)  ! drives.  This was fixed in 5.3-2.    --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 11:13:51 -0800 ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 6 Subject: WTB: Magazine for Compaq SSL2020 Tape LibraryA Message-ID: <1139426031.364041.3440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   A I'm looking for a "19-slot Tape Magazine" (P/N: 175198-B21) for a E Compaq SSL2020 AIT Tape Library.  I've found a few hits on Google but F so far no place that is either still in business or has them in stock.C Plus the current "retail" prices is about $300 and I'd like to find E something cheaper if possible.  So if anyone has one or know somebody B who has one and would like to deal.  I have a choice of one of twoE AlphaServer 800's, an AlphaStation 500 or a PWS500a(u) which could be F available.  Or some reasonable amount of cash.  Contact me off-list if you like.  Thanks.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.079 ************************