0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 09 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 80      Contents: Re: DS10L Docs Re: DS10L Docs Re: DS10L Docs Re: DS10L Docs1 Re: Help! CMUIP TCP/IP software - older versions. 2 Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc...6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc...6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings > Re: OT: English grammar and the state of today's education :-)& Re: PCSI questions and answers---againA Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR] % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty # RAID Special at islandco.com  02/06 ! RE: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR  so lets ALL sign up for this !  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2006 23:24:33 -0800 H From: "ralf.gaertner AT t-systems DOT com" <ralf.gaertner@t-systems.com> Subject: Re: DS10L Docs B Message-ID: <1139469873.176818.47760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Tom Linden schrieb:   A > Just bought one, anyone have the docs, like the service manual?  > Tom   @ I have never seen a service manual. What I have is (PDF format):   DS10L Quick Spec.    DS10 Quick Setup DS10 Quick Spec. DS10 Console Reference DS10 Memory Option  D The console reference should be identical. Send me a mail if you are interested.    Ralf   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:54:11 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: DS10L Docs ( Message-ID: <ops4pnololzgicya@hyrrokkin>  8 On 9 Feb 2006 05:17:34 -0800, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com  ! <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:    > + > ralf.gaertner AT t-systems DOT com wrote:  >> Tom Linden schrieb: >>D >> > Just bought one, anyone have the docs, like the service manual? >> > Tom >>C >> I have never seen a service manual. What I have is (PDF format):  >> >> DS10L Quick Spec. >> >> DS10 Quick Setup  >> DS10 Quick Spec.  >> DS10 Console Reference  >> DS10 Memory Option  >>G >> The console reference should be identical. Send me a mail if you are  >> interested. >> >> Ralf  > F > All of these are still available at HP.  Go to Alphaservers->Retired* > Servers->DS10L->Documentation.  Or clickE > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/ds10l/ds10l_tech.html  > > > That's all I have for mine also.  Funny how inconsistant theE > documentation is once Compaq took over.  Information for the XP1000 H > workstation is almost non-existant online (and apparently it was neverE > in print either) and the DS10L's and the DS20(E) are pretty scimpy.  >  > John H. Reinhardt  > K Well I have the complete documentation for the Miata and the XP1000 and I    had L put them online, but someone from HP asked me to remove the Service Guide,   which  I did.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:06:56 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: DS10L Docs ( Message-ID: <ops4pn9ue1zgicya@hyrrokkin>  K On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:40:47 -0500, David Turner, Island Computers US Corp    <dbturner@icusc.com> wrote:   7 > I have the whole thing ona Compaq DS10L user guide CD  >  > Email me if you want one Tom > 4 > Oh.... and by the way, buy one from me next time ! I will.  >  > David  >    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 10:01:18 -0800 ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: DS10L Docs C Message-ID: <1139504694.352951.106290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Tom Linden wrote: 8 > On 9 Feb 2006 05:17:34 -0800, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com# > <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:  >  > > - > > ralf.gaertner AT t-systems DOT com wrote:  > >> Tom Linden schrieb: > >>F > >> > Just bought one, anyone have the docs, like the service manual?
 > >> > Tom > >>E > >> I have never seen a service manual. What I have is (PDF format):  > >> > >> DS10L Quick Spec. > >> > >> DS10 Quick Setup  > >> DS10 Quick Spec.  > >> DS10 Console Reference  > >> DS10 Memory Option  > >>I > >> The console reference should be identical. Send me a mail if you are  > >> interested. > >>	 > >> Ralf  > > H > > All of these are still available at HP.  Go to Alphaservers->Retired, > > Servers->DS10L->Documentation.  Or clickG > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/ds10l/ds10l_tech.html  > > @ > > That's all I have for mine also.  Funny how inconsistant theG > > documentation is once Compaq took over.  Information for the XP1000 J > > workstation is almost non-existant online (and apparently it was neverG > > in print either) and the DS10L's and the DS20(E) are pretty scimpy.  > >  > > John H. Reinhardt  > > K > Well I have the complete documentation for the Miata and the XP1000 and I  > had L > put them online, but someone from HP asked me to remove the Service Guide, > which  > I did.  G Figures.  That's pretty lame of them.  The system is retired and out of F production.  I suppose it's possible they still sell the documentation. somewhere on their site but I haven't seen it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:10:47 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>: Subject: Re: Help! CMUIP TCP/IP software - older versions./ Message-ID: <43EB2337.10918.27ACA336@localhost>   , On 8 Feb 2006 at 20:53, Timothy Stark wrote:G > Thanks for give me a pointer to that.  I found them and now have them G > in my handy.  I read readme documents and it said that v6.3 will work F > on VMS v4.4 to v4.7.  v6.6 will work on VMS v5.0 or above.  I do notH > know about older version of VMS (before v4.4) would be work with CMUIP > v6.3 or so yet.   D The FreeVMS project is providing CMU in their distribution.  Wonder $ which is more current.  Anyone know?  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 04:21:09 -0800 + From: "Shawn M." <shawnm1964@sbcglobal.net> ; Subject: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... A Message-ID: <1139487669.553714.6880@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi all,    I konw if I use the following:  " @sys$manager:tcpip$define_commands  E That I can use Unix type commands such as netstat, ifconifg etc.  Can B anyone point me to a place or help me out with the other unix type) commands this will allow me to carry out.   G I have users who are dropping from the system via telnet sessions and I  want to monitor the network.   Any help would be appreciated.   Shawn    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:33:25 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> ? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... D Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602090828590.7278@localhost.localdomain>  # On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Shawn M. wrote:     > I konw if I use the following: > $ > @sys$manager:tcpip$define_commands > C > That I can use Unix type commands such as netstat, ifconifg etc.  D > Can anyone point me to a place or help me out with the other unix 0 > type commands this will allow me to carry out.  @ Are you asking what commands will be enabled when you type this  command?  E If you can "@" a file, then the file is a text file, so you can type  " it or view it with an editor.  Try  9    $ type/page=save sys$manager:tcpip$define_commands.com  or8    $ edit/readonly sys$manager:tcpip$define_commands.com   hth    - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:21:42 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... $ Message-ID: <dsg17m$to3$2@online.de>  H In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602090828590.7278@localhost.localdomain>, Rob$ Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes:   G > If you can "@" a file, then the file is a text file, so you can type  $ > it or view it with an editor.  Try  G Only if you have "R" privilege.  If you have "E" but not "R", then you   can "@" it but not TYPE it.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 14:38:12 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <4512ekF4dj9lU2@individual.net>   9 In article <ZaidnQjuNs17XHfenZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@libcom.com>, * 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:  >> Dave Froble wrote:  >>  H >>>It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to doH >>>something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such,K >>>they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless absolutely F >>>necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use. >>   >>   >>  & >> There is another wait to word this. >>  I >> If a language has too many restrictions, the programmer will find ugly K >> workaround/kludges to perform stuff which the pedantic language prevents  >> him from doing. >>  H >> C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what >> needs to be done. > * > Ok, I'll refrain from the 'H' word.  :-)  > Go ahead.  It's bad to keep that stress locked up inside.  :-)   > H > If an array is dimensioned for 100 elements, under what circumstances G > would one ever want the language to allow a reference to element 120?   E Probably none, but that is totally irrelevant to the statement above. F The ability to access element 120 in a 100 element array is the resultD of not having range checking.  Something that was likely left out ofE C for the same reason it was left out of COBOL and other languages of  the same era.  Overhead.   > I > My opinion is that the computer is there to do the grunt work, not me.  ( > Why should I be required to do such?    G Because your smarter than the computer?  I am always amazed when I hear F people say, "Why did it do that?"  It can only do what it is told, The4 computer can not make rational decisions on its own.  B >                                      Heck, I don't even declare - > variables.  Let the compiler sift them out.   I And that is the one thing I definitely don't agree with.  And being stuck G keeping other people's garbage running I see the danger of it everyday.    > = >> COBOL hjas string size management. a MOVE command will not J >> buffer-overflow because the generated code knows the size of the source/ >> and target buffers and enforce those limits.  >>  H >> But if you want to address individual characters in a field, you thenJ >> need a kludge to have those characters mapped to an array, but then youE >> lose buffer oflerflow protection because your logic takes over the   >> moving and boundary checking. >  > Why? > J > What's wrong with MID(<string>,77,1) to reference the 77th character in G > a string?  Note, if the string is only 50 characters in length, this   > returns the null string. > H > What's wrong with a language that gives you some useful tools, rather " > than making you do all the work?  F We weren't talking about this mythical language, we were talking aboutE languages that actually exist.  There is nothing stopping people from F creating new languages with all the features they want.  Come to thinkH of it, that's what Ada was. And we all saw how far that grand experimentH went.  You don't suppose that the proliferation of C could be due to theH fact that other languages don't do a lot of what it does and that people
 need done?   bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:01:56 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4pn1imfzgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:09:09 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:  K > I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in   D > a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist. > K PL/I not only does it will undertake conversions to the correct data type    and : warn you that it did so, after warning you of the mismatch   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:15:20 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4ponufxzgicya@hyrrokkin>  H On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 01:17:42 -0500, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>   wrote:   >> ...9 >>  Don't tell me that you could do without range checks. G >  I guess you missed the post where I already did.  For preallocated   L > static strings, macros can perform the same service without any run-time   > overhead. H If you are writing reentrant code you likely wouldn't use static at all, save for constants.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:10:30 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings1 Message-ID: <WPJGf.2914$Ii1.999@news.cpqcorp.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:[ > In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >  > J >>I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in D >>a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist. >  > " > Ada and Pascal are two examples.  A I think he meant at run-time, not compile-time.  Even with using  H by-descriptor for all parameter passing, without hooking the programmer H upto a polygraph, the run-time code just has to trust that the run-time + value is indeed a valid value for the type.    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 09:48:52 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <1njof5FiU0yo@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <WPJGf.2914$Ii1.999@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote:\ >> In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>   >>  K >>>I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in  E >>>a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  >>   >>  # >> Ada and Pascal are two examples.  > C > I think he meant at run-time, not compile-time.  Even with using  J > by-descriptor for all parameter passing, without hooking the programmer J > upto a polygraph, the run-time code just has to trust that the run-time - > value is indeed a valid value for the type.   C DEC Cobol on Alpha comes to mind as an implementation that contains G command line switches to enable run time sanity checking in the case of  decimal strings.  B Without those switches, the generated code makes assumptions about@ the structure of decimal strings that may not always be born out1 in the case of data coming from external sources.   G It's not clear whether these checks fit what you think Dave was talking G about.  But then I'm not clear on what either of you are trying to say.   0 (No offense meant.  The fault is probably mine).   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 12:09:59 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <xXJ6BSjLgLpf@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <WPJGf.2914$Ii1.999@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote:\ >> In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>   >>  K >>>I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in  E >>>a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  >>   >>  # >> Ada and Pascal are two examples.  > C > I think he meant at run-time, not compile-time.  Even with using  J > by-descriptor for all parameter passing, without hooking the programmer J > upto a polygraph, the run-time code just has to trust that the run-time - > value is indeed a valid value for the type.   A Hmmm, I view that as just trusting the integrity of the compilers @ used to create the code.  Of course if one is bypassing a strong? type system (or using a language without any) all bets are off. D This should take care of passing a float to a parameter that expectsB an integer, require an integer less than 12, or anything else that= can be handled by the type system of the language being used.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:08:14 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>G Subject: Re: OT: English grammar and the state of today's education :-) + Message-ID: <450plfF4bnjsU1@individual.net>    Steven M. Schweda wrote:* > From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> > J >>I don't think the above examples are quite what Benjamin Franklin meant ; >>when he said "We hold these truths to be self-evident"...  >  > : > http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/hrintro/wehold.htm > I >       Although the first battles of the American Revolution occurred in I >       1775, the Declaration of Independence by the American colonies in I >       1776 formally announced the revolution.  Its principal author was E >       Thomas Jefferson, who later became the third president of the  >       United States. > J > President Franklin may have said this at some time, but he did not write@ > the document.  (I'm sure that he was president of _something_,G > somewhere, sometime.)  On the bright side, the folks at state.gov can 7 > use "its" properly, which is getting to be a novelty.  >   C Rats. My misattribution was the result of looking at Google search  E results rather than the actual article referenced. I stand corrected.    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:20:01 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)/ Subject: Re: PCSI questions and answers---again $ Message-ID: <dsg14g$to3$1@online.de>  H In article <4jzGf.148359$7l4.47252@trnddc05>, John Santos <john@egh.com> writes:   M > > I think this is still the case.  After all the recovery data is deleted,  L > > then the next installation WILL save it, even if I don't specify /SAVE,  > > if I answer as above.  > F > What do you mean by "next installation"?  Do you mean the one you doB > next week to install the patch that came out tomorrow, or do you0 > mean the "next installation" of the set above? > F > The next installation will save its recovery data IF and ONLY IF youC > specify /SAVE on the NEXT installation.  If you specify /SAVE, it D > always will save any existing recovery data, and the recovery dataB > from the current installation.  If you don't specify /SAVE, thenF > any existing recovery data is deleted, and no recovery data is savedD > from the current installation.  (All this assuming A) that the kitG > doesn't include asking the question to override the lack of the /SAVE B > qualifier and B) the kit is compatible with /SAVE, as all recent5 > patch kits, but no regular product kits AFAIK are.)   $ OK, got it down pat now, chief.  :-)  G Never specifying /SAVE, every other patch would say it is deleting the  A old recovery data.  I guess this is because they DID include the  G question about ovrriding the lack of the /SAVE qualifier.  So it would  * save it, and the next would delete it etc.  ! I'll specify /SAVE in the future.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 07:52:40 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>J Subject: Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR]C Message-ID: <1139500360.298791.179850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: norm.raphael@metso.com > M > > > All of which is excessively discouraging.  (Including the use of "data"  > > > as a singular noun, [...]  > >  > > data is a collective noun.H > > data can be singular, meaning an aggregation of datums, like agenda. > > media, too.  > H >    When I go looking for advice on Latin plurals, my starting place isD > not likely to be someone who says "datums".  In the good old days,    D C'mon, no one says "datums". Well, I've never heard it. I have heardC "data point" (and even "data points", IIRC) at scientific lectures,  however.    D > "data" was a plural, and quite happily so, but that was before theE > semi-literatati got hold of it.  In the better-educated circles, it  > still is.  > 7 >    Some people think that "grafiti" is singular, too.  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org  >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547     E I understand your point of view re the word 'data', but words evolve:    >From www.webster.com:  G USAGE Data leads a life of its own quite independent of datum, of which B it was originally the plural. It occurs in two constructions: as aF plural noun (like earnings), taking a plural verb and plural modifiersB (as these, many, a few) but not cardinal numbers, and serving as aE referent for plural pronouns (as they, them); and as an abstract mass F noun (like information), taking a singular verb and singular modifiersD (as this, much, little), and being referred to by a singular pronounF (it). Both constructions are standard. The plural construction is more= common in print, evidently because the house style of several  publishers mandates it.   , >From www.dicionary.com (American Heritage):  B Usage Note: The word data is the plural of Latin datum, "somethingE given," but it is not always treated as a plural noun in English. The F plural usage is still common, as this headline from the New York TimesA attests: "Data Are Elusive on the Homeless." Sometimes scientists < think of data as plural, as in These data do not support theG conclusions. But more often scientists and researchers think of data as C a singular mass entity like information, and most people now follow G this in general usage. Sixty percent of the Usage Panel accepts the use F of data with a singular verb and pronoun in the sentence Once the dataE is in, we can begin to analyze it. A still larger number, 77 percent, E accepts the sentence We have very little data on the efficacy of such B programs, where the quantifier very little, which is not used withF similar plural nouns such as facts and results, implies that data here is indeed singular.   : Another example is modern day usage of 'shall' and 'will'.  " Also consider 'thee', 'thou', etc.  C Though I do tend to agree with Buckley's essay on usage determining A correctness in the American Heritage Dictionary (I don't have the F acutal edition handy right now). OTOH, I can't believe some publishers: still hypenate 'email', but I'll take that as a "variant".  B BL: I think data as "singular or plural in construction" has spent3 enough time in the "antechambers" to be "accepted".    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 01:23:23 -0800  From: lucast70@gmail.com. Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU WarrantyC Message-ID: <1139477003.872950.106000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: G > A customer of mine in Greece has a DS25 that freezes up after 4 hours B > HP told him that they think that the problem is the motherboard. > K > He purchased it in 2004 through an Authorised solutions provider in Italy 	 > (durst) M > I told him that it should be under warranty for THREE years (HP told him it 
 > was 1 year) N > Now being in the USA I know it is only 12 months on US supplied systems, but$ > I am POSITIVE that all EU supplied > NEW systems carry three years  > & > Can anyone in the EU confirm this??? > N > The poor guy is at a mid sized printing company and will be forced to buy an9 > $8500 part when HP should be replacing it at no charge.  >  > David  >  >  > -- >  > David B Turner > Island Computers US Corp > 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 > Savannah GA 31404  > Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 > Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  > Fax: 912 201 0402  > Email: dbturner@icusc.com  > Web: http://www.islandco.com' > ===================================== > > All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions0 > of sale. These should be read before ordering.' > http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html , Hi David (Another happy customer of yours :)  E According to the EU regulation the electronic equipment must carry at D least two years of guarantee. I don't know if this EU regulation hasF become part of our national legislation here in Greece, but I see manyA companies to violate it. The EU regulations are stronger than the  national laws anyway.   G I think the only solution for your customer is to pay $8,500 and find a G good lawyer to ask a question about this. If I am right, the court will B order HP to return the money back to him and pay all the expenses.   Regards    Lucas    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:45:05 +0000 (UTC)< From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann). Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty) Message-ID: <dsf6fh$qid$1@news.BelWue.DE>   ^ In article <1139477003.872950.106000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, lucast70@gmail.com writes:. >David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:H >> A customer of mine in Greece has a DS25 that freezes up after 4 hoursC >> HP told him that they think that the problem is the motherboard.  >>L >> He purchased it in 2004 through an Authorised solutions provider in Italy
 >> (durst)N >> I told him that it should be under warranty for THREE years (HP told him it >> was 1 year)O >> Now being in the USA I know it is only 12 months on US supplied systems, but % >> I am POSITIVE that all EU supplied   >> NEW systems carry three years >>' >> Can anyone in the EU confirm this???  >>O >> The poor guy is at a mid sized printing company and will be forced to buy an : >> $8500 part when HP should be replacing it at no charge. >> >> David >>- >Hi David (Another happy customer of yours :)  > F >According to the EU regulation the electronic equipment must carry atE >least two years of guarantee. I don't know if this EU regulation has G >become part of our national legislation here in Greece, but I see many B >companies to violate it. The EU regulations are stronger than the >national laws anyway.  O Here in Germany the rule is as such: if the thing goes bad during the first six K months the vendor (not the producer) has to fix it. If not, he has to prove K that the buyer did something wrong and the fault is due to misuse or abuse. N After these six months up to two years the buyer has to prove that the problemM was immanent to the product from the beginning (i.e. that he didn't misuse or M abuse the product). This is the default rule and according to EU regulations. O Professional sellers are not allowed to change these conditions when selling to L consumers. If they are selling to companies, businesses or the like they may= modify these conditions and even exclude warranty completely.   G So as the buyer you have to deal only with your vendor and not with the K producer. The vendor in turn has to deal with the producer (or his dealer). L Of course, if a producer offers a longer warranty it is allowed to do so. In? these cases the final buyer may have to deal with the producer.   K In your case your customer should have a look into the terms and conditions O of his vendor. If there are statements about warranty, these apply. If not, the " forementioned default rules apply.  L I think it is very unlikely that your customer made any modifications to theO system in question or that he used it in a non professional way. So it might be O a good idea to first ask the vendor (write a letter, not an e-mail). If default N rules apply and the vendor is not willing to regulate the case one would writeI a second (registered) letter where one would set a final date for repair, K replacement or refund (it is up to the vendor to choose). After that, it is  time for a lawyer.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 06:11:54 -0800 + From: "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> . Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU WarrantyB Message-ID: <1139494314.100313.87870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   Are you certain ?   G The rules for "consumer" purchases are usually different than those for @ corporate purchasing.  ie. Joe Consumer is protected more than a corporate buyer.   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:52:18 +0000 (UTC)< From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann). Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty) Message-ID: <dsfs02$cec$1@news.BelWue.DE>   p In article <1139494314.100313.87870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Dr. Dweeb" <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> writes: >Are you certain ?   Do you answer me?   H >The rules for "consumer" purchases are usually different than those forA >corporate purchasing.  ie. Joe Consumer is protected more than a  >corporate buyer.   K I thought that I did explain this. The "default" is the same for both types M of customers. For consumers the default is the minimum whereas with corporate A purchasing other (and worse) conditions may be freely negotiated.    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:14:15 -0500C From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> , Subject: RAID Special at islandco.com  02/069 Message-ID: <FDKGf.10421$697.2783@bignews3.bellsouth.net>   : Take advantage of our low prices on RAID subystems from HP  # Special this month of February 2006   I 1 x 180911-001 Disk Enclosure with dual bus U160 and Dual Power Rackmount : 1 x 3X-KZPDC-BE Dual U160 RAID Controller with 128MB Cache' 8 x 176496-B22 36.4GB 10KRPM U160 Disks  2 x VHDCI to VHDCI Cables    Only US$2595 while stocks last& Shipping within the continental US $80   Offer available worldwide   3 Call or email for shipping costs if outside the USA      --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:25:05 +11006 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>* Subject: RE: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIRX Message-ID: <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC307E66F@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>   -----Original Message-----9 From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net] ) Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 2:48 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR     Dave Froble wrote: >=20 > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>F > >>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than> > >>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). > >>>  > >>. > >>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >  > > K > > Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versions I > > of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this.  > >  >=20J > I know what you meant.  My post was a not subtle way of saying "go pound? > salt".  I really don't understand these types of requests.=20   D You're obviously not effected by ISV abandonment that locks you into V5.5-2 or such.    > It's hard I > enough keeping the current version of any software working.  To ask for J > a feature to be placed in an older version assumes that it can easily be > plugged in.=20  G Well, no it doesn't. Speaking for myself, at least, I realize that code F - especially code as old as VMS BACKUP, even the current incarnation -= is likely not sufficiently modular as to allow for extension, E enhancement, etc. without a fair amount of work. I just don't dismiss G the possibility out-of-hand that it may be possible, and that those who > lag behind through no fault if their own would appreciate someD enhancements to their otherwise burdensome environment (say "DILOG",  "CMD", "CIQBA", "Emulex", etc.).  < > This assumption too many times will be invalid.  To expectJ > an in-depth analysis of every prior version of any utility is asking way > too much.   E A quick look-see would probably be sufficient to say whether it looks G possible or whether the "looker" shuddered at the thought of attempting  to tackle the older code.   @ Along the same line as "innocent until proven guilty", how 'bout" "possible until proven otherwise"?   ******  L I cannot agree here.  Yes, "possible until proven otherwise", but not suppo=L rted!!  How many other issues have to be taken into account -- RTL changes,=L  etc.  Revised compiler standards can also change the behaviour of code -- =L this happened with some changes to Fortran 90 (a simple example was the F77=L  v. F90 STOP statement), and C is not immune to having standards change beh=L aviour.  We can always try to include an 8.2 or 8.3 image onto an older sys=L tem, but most of the time it would not work.  Why should we expect HP VMS e=L ngineering to do their normal quality control on older systems.  Yes, some =L people are stuck there for various reasons, but I don't see it as engineeri=L ng's job to ensure that these people ( a fraction of the Gorham or even the=L  Revised Gorham) have enhancements that may benefit from newer architecture= s and features.   L A "quick look-see" is not what you give to "quality" code.  I have several =L times thought I could fix bugs in the applications that I maintain and deve=L lop after a "quick look-see".  And, guess what, I was very wrong!   The sub=L tlety of the bug was not cured by such; had that been the case, the bug wou=1 ld likely not have been there in the first place.   L For Steven's benefit (Stevens ;-), I didn't manage to include an "its" or "=L it's" or a "your" or "you're", neither correctly nor incorrectly, even thou=L gh this is comp.os.vms :-))).  I did use "their" where I should probably ha=L ve used "there" for the same reason, and even the opposite where I used "th= ere" :-)   Regards, Paddy    G *********************************************************************** ; Please consider the environment before printing this email.   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:22:15 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR1 Message-ID: <X_JGf.2917$5D1.383@news.cpqcorp.net>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > John Reagan wrote: >>F >>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money> >>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. >  > J > Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so: > little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS. >   > I'll assume you aren't directing that at me as I try to be as B customer-friendly as possible (I was a customer in a former life).  I This is like asking Ford Motor Company, "Dear Ford, I have a 1973 pickup  B truck.  Drives fine.  I can still get lots of after market parts. H However, I see that you just shipped a new and improved anti-lock brake D system that will help me out in certain situations.  Can you please @ provide this new brake system for my 1973 truck free of charge?"  ? Now, I understand it isn't a fair comparision, but it is close.   G It isn't just building BACKUP for those older OpenVMS releases, but in  H many cases, it is literally reimplementing the change (granted, in some I cases, it would just be a cut-n-paste operation, but even those go wrong   sometimes).   E Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how  * many people would install it and trust it?   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 12:12:55 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR3 Message-ID: <L1J0zltcBCgM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <X_JGf.2917$5D1.383@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: > David J Dachtera wrote:  >> John Reagan wrote:  >>> G >>>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money ? >>>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen.  >>   >>  K >> Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so ; >> little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS.  >>   > @ > I'll assume you aren't directing that at me as I try to be as D > customer-friendly as possible (I was a customer in a former life). > K > This is like asking Ford Motor Company, "Dear Ford, I have a 1973 pickup  D > truck.  Drives fine.  I can still get lots of after market parts. J > However, I see that you just shipped a new and improved anti-lock brake F > system that will help me out in certain situations.  Can you please B > provide this new brake system for my 1973 truck free of charge?" > A > Now, I understand it isn't a fair comparision, but it is close.  > I > It isn't just building BACKUP for those older OpenVMS releases, but in  J > many cases, it is literally reimplementing the change (granted, in some K > cases, it would just be a cut-n-paste operation, but even those go wrong  
 > sometimes).  > G > Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how  , > many people would install it and trust it?  G There would never be sufficient time to test is as fully as the testing G done for new release of VMS, and even that testing lets things slip by.   < Look at the list of ECOs, and tell me people want it longer.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:57:49 -0500/ From: "Hank Vander Waal" <hvanderw@comcast.net> ' Subject: so lets ALL sign up for this ! 9 Message-ID: <02ac01c62d80$d089e680$1b0101c0@altlcorp.com>   K This exclusive webinar will cover in detail HP's current and future support J of the AlphaServer systems, and discuss the services HP offers to help youH build a strategy to evolve your environment to the next generation of HP server technologies.  L Join us on February 28th at 2pm ET (11am PT), featuring three guest speakersL and a panel of experts to answer your specific questions during the live Q&AG session. Sign up for the HP AlphaServer system support webinar today at " www.hp.com/go/webinar/alphaserver.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.080 ************************