0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 10 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 81      Contents: Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS...1 Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801 6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc...6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc...6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... Re: LDAP authenication% Re: M e z e i finds love in a Keyhole  Re: RE: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: PDPs in the news! A Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR] A Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR] A Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR] A Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR] ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR  V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs  Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs & What is this about - VMS advertising ?* Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ?* Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ?* Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ?* Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:36:54 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... + Message-ID: <43EBEE36.A3AF4AAE@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > Alan Greig wrote:  > >  > >  > > Dave Froble wrote: > > G > >> There may be all the obsticles you mention, and more.  However, go D > >> back to the original statement.  "If I was the #1 person in VMSK > >> management".  In that situation, I would do whatever it took to gather C > >> the contact information for as many VMS customers as possible.  > >> Whatever it took! > >  > > L > > Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person) > > in VMS management" than the last one?  > >  > >  >  > Maybe nobody is asking?    I am asking.   Responses are dear, indeed.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:36:04 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... + Message-ID: <43EBEE03.8A63E625@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > JF Mezei wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > > K > >>There may be all the obsticles you mention, and more.  However, go back K > >>to the original statement.  "If I was the #1 person in VMS management". J > >>  In that situation, I would do whatever it took to gather the contactI > >>information for as many VMS customers as possible.  Whatever it took!  > >  > >  > > F > > OK, i see your text in different light now. (I guess your original0 > > "horseshit" clouded my original reaction :-( > < > Well, as already written, it's HP's job, not anyone elses.   Elucidate, please.  C I agree that HP should be pulling the lion's share of the marketing  load.   G As entrepreneurs, however, it is in our best interest to do what we can B where we can to bring VMS to light and present it against anything against which it can compete.   H There's lots of products out there which are marketed almost exclusivelyH by the people who resell them. A fair number of manufacturers don't evenG have retail channels, only distributors, and a bunch of those only sell 
 to resellers.   G So, yes - I can fault HP for not doing anything at all, but no: I can't + lay the entire burden at HP's feet, no way.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:39:40 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... + Message-ID: <43EBEEDC.D70334A9@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Alan Greig wrote: L > > Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person) > > in VMS management" than the last one?  > I > If VMS' auto-pilot keeps it on the course pre-set by HP, VMS management  > don't need to do much. > F > On the other hand, maybe they are fighting a huge internal corporateJ > fight to save VMS and aren't getting any recognition for this behind the > scenes work.  H I'd like to think that "they" are working stealthily, silently, and thatE at some point in their plan they'll reach critical mass and the whole E thing will burst into the light in a manner that is grand, unexpected * and impossible for the industry to ignore.  " How's *THAT* for a grand illusion?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 21:51:40 -0500- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... I Message-ID: <8660a3a10602091851o297bd67fmba1770e651d212e0@mail.gmail.com>   > On 2/9/06, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:  > >  > > Alan Greig wrote: L > > > Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 per= son + > > > in VMS management" than the last one?  > > K > > If VMS' auto-pilot keeps it on the course pre-set by HP, VMS management  > > don't need to do much. > > H > > On the other hand, maybe they are fighting a huge internal corporateL > > fight to save VMS and aren't getting any recognition for this behind th= e  > > scenes work. > J > I'd like to think that "they" are working stealthily, silently, and thatG > at some point in their plan they'll reach critical mass and the whole G > thing will burst into the light in a manner that is grand, unexpected , > and impossible for the industry to ignore. > $ > How's *THAT* for a grand illusion? >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > ( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page# > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/  > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ >   
 Counterproof:   6 There are new ISVs porting applications to VMS on I64.  6 That's one sign.  There are others, to those who look.  > And I concur, we shouldn't have to dig for this kind of stuff.   WWWebbb  .  --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 17:34:17 -0800  From: erosional@hotmail.com : Subject: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801B Message-ID: <1139535257.275817.91430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   Hi all  F I have a Cisco 2801 that uses an SDSL connection (IP Range 1) and needG to set up a failover to an ADSL connection (IP Range 2) should the SDSL D one suddenly fail. The dilemma is.......how do I do this so that NAT= translation to the internal network continues to work without 0 interruption...or at least minimal interruption?    Thanks in advance for your help!   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:39:44 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> ? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602091223390.11168@localhost.localdomain>   C On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:   G > In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602090828590.7278@localhost.localdomain>,  ) > Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes:  > C >> If you can "@" a file, then the file is a text file, so you can  * >> type it or view it with an editor.  Try > E > Only if you have "R" privilege.  If you have "E" but not "R", then  ! > you can "@" it but not TYPE it.   E Yes, in that case a different approach would be required.  How about:       $ DELETE/SYMBOL/GLOBAL/ALL ;    $ @SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS !or whatever it was     $ SHOW SYMBOL/GLOBAL/ALL   A You could even play games to capture the list in a file, such as:   !    $ @TT:/OUTPUT=UNIXCOMMANDS.TXT     _$ SHOW SYMBOL/GLOBAL/ALL    _$ ^Z   - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 18:02:24 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... C Message-ID: <1139536944.381664.272690@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: J > In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602090828590.7278@localhost.localdomain>, Rob% > Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes:  > H > > If you can "@" a file, then the file is a text file, so you can type& > > it or view it with an editor.  Try > H > Only if you have "R" privilege.  If you have "E" but not "R", then you > can "@" it but not TYPE it.     F Well, he "[has] users" and wants to monitor the network. That means he most likely has R.     AEF   " I was right about the fifth force!   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:06:56 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... + Message-ID: <43EBF540.A8A11705@comcast.net>    "Shawn M." wrote:  > 	 > Hi all,  >   > I konw if I use the following: > $ > @sys$manager:tcpip$define_commands > G > That I can use Unix type commands such as netstat, ifconifg etc.  Can D > anyone point me to a place or help me out with the other unix type+ > commands this will allow me to carry out.  > I > I have users who are dropping from the system via telnet sessions and I  > want to monitor the network.  F If user sessions are dropping, those commands may not help much beyond" telling you what you already know.  C You'll want to diagnose the network itself, not just one end of the  connection.   1 That said, you can find messages in the OPCOM log E (SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG), usually by default, for TELNET logins and G logouts when running UCX. The logout messages may indicate some timeout C condition, and then again they may not. I haven't checked into that $ during my most recent bout with UCX.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 14:17:25 -0500) From: "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com>  Subject: Re: LDAP authenication , Message-ID: <43eb9546$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   The short answer is no.   K The present LDAP ACME EAK is VMS-specific and requires Enterprise Directory G which supports the VMS-specific schema. This is useful for centralizing ; authentication for large groups of VMS systems or clusters.   H There is work going on to enhance the LDAP ACME to support standard LDAP? authentication as provided by LDAP-compliant directory servers.   
 Richard Barry  OpenVMS System Software Group  Hewlett-Packard Company 
 Nashua, NH  * <schortingh_j@mercer.edu> wrote in message< news:1139432430.684442.76780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...F > We are reviewing the possibility of having our vms systems / windowsB > applications authenicate aganist  the ldap included with red hatI > enterprise.  Can the ldap (eak) be used with acme to allow this type of  > authenication. > 	 > Thanks.  >  > Jim Schortinghouse > VMS Systems Manager  > Mercer University  > 478.301.2846 > schortingh_j@Mercer.edu  >    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 22:37:03 -0000 1 From: M e z e i is a P I G <anon@comments.header> . Subject: Re: M e z e i finds love in a Keyhole3 Message-ID: <KO3BB6BU38757.7340625@twistycreek.com>   R Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@earthlink.net> wrote:   >  >M e z e i is a PIG wrote: >  >> Gregory Morrow D ><gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >M e z e i is a PIG wrote:  >> >E >> >> JF Mezei sockpupetting as "nobody <nobody@nobody.org>" trolled:  >> >> M >> >> >If you sit 3 obese women next to each other, should the airline charge G >> >> >for extra seats ?  It might form one big ugly blob of fat with 6  >saggingD >> >> >breasts and 3 heads on a 3 seat section, but they woudln't be$ >> >> >inconveniencing anybody else. >> >> D >> >> But they'd probably be much better company on a flight than an# >> >> insane psycho troll like you.  >> >> ( >> >> And more decent human beings, too. >> >> E >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/5e814528bf75efa9  >> >>  >> > >> >C >> >The way that JF talks about women one has to wonder if he has a  >> >girlfriend...  >>D >> Aside from the inflatable one he keeps under his bed?  Nah....... >>K >> >Did he get dumped on by Connie Wong or Ellen or Sheryl Mexic I wonder -  >is D >> >that why he apparently harbours so much bitterness to the fairer
 >sex...??? >>L >> Maybe the stress of having to sleep with his fat, hairy, sweaty Hungarian >mother 2 >> and satisfy her sexual needs is getting to him. >>J >> He needs to be with a real woman for once so he can see what it's like.J >> Maybe a three-day weekend in the Poconos with Ellen, Sheryl, and Connie >> might do the trick. >  > K >Except that Connie wields a MEAN cleaver and he might be in some danger of . >her going "chop - chop" to his "salami"...!!! > L >Ellen would just spend time blowing cig smoke into his face and does anyoneF >really think that Sheryl has *ever* been capable of having an orgasm?  B Only when Rolando Zamora works his magic with his fingers..... <g>  . >I vote we fix him up with Mary Ann Keyhole...  : She's a whooooole lotta woman ..... can Mezei handle it???   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 16:20:35 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: RE: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <l+SLRsiL7P+V@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <dsdtel$l5i$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, JONESD@ecr6.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) writes:  > I > You could pass arrays to subroutines in VAX FORTRAN that declared those M > arguments as external functions.  I once wrote an image processing function J > that read a convolution matrix from a file and generated code on the flyK > (optimizing out any zero multiplies) to do the convolution. I never tried Q > passing an array as a label (alternate return point), but I imagine there being  > a good chance it working.   G    I think there's very little chance of the last one working.  The VAX F    Fortran compiler (and I assume DEC Fortran) generates the same code$    for the following two constructs:  - ---------------------------------------------     call able(x,&100,&200)     - ---------------------------------------------     n = able(x)    goto (100,200) n   - ---------------------------------------------   E    The called routine returns a hidden integer value like a function, C    then the calling routine branches on the value.  Not exactly the      way IBM did it, but it works.  E    If you pass any syntax that doesn't look like a label, you're just F    passing more arguments than the called subroutine actually looks atE    and the calling routine won't know to generate the goto-like code.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 16:25:36 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <Ligy7vRy7soR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <WPJGf.2914$Ii1.999@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: > 3 > I think he meant at run-time, not compile-time.     ?    I've had both Ada and Java catch me on this one at run-time.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 16:22:13 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <mfYFk+vIeZ4N@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43EA900E.66465A06@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > G > C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what  > needs to be done.   G    Doing what needs to be done is not the same thing as providing tools 7    which make it trivial to shoot yourself in the foot.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 16:23:23 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <Oc5Y1tC3EaQg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > J > I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in D > a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  2    You should at least study Java, and better Ada.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:23:00 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <P-2dnZyZnolLU3beRVn-ow@metrocastcablevision.com>    Tom Linden wrote: I > On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 01:17:42 -0500, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>   > wrote: >  >>> ... : >>>  Don't tell me that you could do without range checks.G >>  I guess you missed the post where I already did.  For preallocated  C >> static strings, macros can perform the same service without any   >> run-time overhead. J > If you are writing reentrant code you likely wouldn't use static at all, > save for constants.   A Guess you didn't bother to read the earlier post either:  string  G constants (error messages were used as an example) were precisely what   it was talking about.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:29:58 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > 9 > On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis ! > <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote:  >  > > + > > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS?  > / > No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP?   H Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicleD with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum distillates?  , Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD?  F Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the worldG "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot?   C Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas?   G Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough, 1 both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.)   2 Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find.  B Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soE damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for D "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that way.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:45:11 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <So-dnSM5LPuebXbeRVn-iA@libcom.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:V > In article <1njof5FiU0yo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes: > \ >>In article <WPJGf.2914$Ii1.999@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: >> >>>Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >>> ] >>>>In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>>> >>>> >>>>M >>>>>I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in  G >>>>>a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  >>>> >>>>$ >>>>Ada and Pascal are two examples. >>> D >>>I think he meant at run-time, not compile-time.  Even with using K >>>by-descriptor for all parameter passing, without hooking the programmer  K >>>upto a polygraph, the run-time code just has to trust that the run-time  . >>>value is indeed a valid value for the type. >>E >>DEC Cobol on Alpha comes to mind as an implementation that contains I >>command line switches to enable run time sanity checking in the case of  >>decimal strings. >>D >>Without those switches, the generated code makes assumptions aboutB >>the structure of decimal strings that may not always be born out3 >>in the case of data coming from external sources.  >  > 3 > External sources always require special checking.  > C > The part that can happen much more automatically is calls between & > modules written using strong typing.  F Well, there is the capability in VAX Basic to declare subroutines and E the datatype of their arguments.  The compiler will then insure that  @ you're passing the proper data type.  Very good for call by ref.  H I'm having trouble thinking of the few times that I passed something to I a routine, and had the routine treat it as another type of data.  A very  ! few times.  That's good, I think.   I I did find one place I needed to pass something other than data, but the  C called routine was a system service, not another VAX Basic module.  G Maybe it's just me being dense again, but I don't think that VAX Basic  A is too good at passing and/or handling the address of some code.  E Passing the address of an AST handler routine when setting up an AST  B timer routine was interesting.  If I had been calling a VAX Basic G routine, and passed the address of some code, I think that would cause   some problems.  :-)    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:56:26 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <GdednZ9VLKU-b3beRVn-iQ@libcom.com>    Tom Linden wrote: I > On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:09:09 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    > wrote: > H >> I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters I >> in  a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  >>G > PL/I not only does it will undertake conversions to the correct data   > type  and < > warn you that it did so, after warning you of the mismatch  ) That sounds like a compile time activity.   * How does PL/I know the correct data types?  G In VAX Basic, there is the option to declare external routines and the  6 data type of each parameter.  Is this similar in PL/I?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:53:53 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <GdednZxVLKWQb3beRVn-iQ@libcom.com>    John Reagan wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ? >> In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble    >> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >> >>I >>> I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters  I >>> in a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist.  >> >> >># >> Ada and Pascal are two examples.  >  > C > I think he meant at run-time, not compile-time.  Even with using  J > by-descriptor for all parameter passing, without hooking the programmer J > upto a polygraph, the run-time code just has to trust that the run-time - > value is indeed a valid value for the type.  >    Yeah, basically run-time.   A A call to SYS$SETIMR requires the address of the handler routine.   I I'm not aware of such a capability in VAX Basic.  So you got to be a bit  I innovative.  Declare an external function, get it's address by using the  F LOC() operative (intended to get the address of a variable), and pass A that longword by value.  I believe that went a bit beyond what's  : intended in the language, but did allow what was required.  G A C advocate might use the above as an excuse for not using a language  C that does a bunch of checking for you.  However, the checking that  E occurs at run-time on array bounds, string lengths, and such is much  G more valuable to me, and I still could 'trick' the language to do what  
 was required.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:57:47 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <GdednZ5VLKVpb3beRVn-iQ@libcom.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:[ > In article <M7OdnY-GmpOjXXfeRVn-uQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > J >>I'm unaware of any language that does any checking of the parameters in D >>a call to those in a subroutine.  Doesn't mean such doesn't exist. >  > 4 >    You should at least study Java, and better Ada. >   B I don't know.  This dog is pretty old.  New tricks might be tough.  - The little I looked at Java reminded me of C.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2006 02:21:18 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <452bkuF4eps5U1@individual.net>   + In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > Tom Linden wrote:  >>  : >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis" >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote: >>   >> >, >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? >>  0 >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP? > J > Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicleF > with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum > distillates? > . > Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD? > H > Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the worldI > "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot?  > E > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas?  > I > Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough, 3 > both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.)  > 4 > Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find. > D > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soG > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for F > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that > way.  F Perhaps the difference is that the persons needing to invest the moneyF and time in those products could clearly see a market which guaranteedG a return on their investment.  Can the same be said for any VMS product 0 today much less for something as niche as PL/I!!   bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:12:15 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <leOdnYH3HsrDa3benZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:; > In article <ZaidnQjuNs17XHfenZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@libcom.com>, , > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>  >>> I >>>>It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to do I >>>>something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such, L >>>>they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless absolutelyG >>>>necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use.  >>>  >>>  >>> & >>>There is another wait to word this. >>> I >>>If a language has too many restrictions, the programmer will find ugly K >>>workaround/kludges to perform stuff which the pedantic language prevents  >>>him from doing. >>> H >>>C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what >>>needs to be done. >>* >>Ok, I'll refrain from the 'H' word.  :-) >  > @ > Go ahead.  It's bad to keep that stress locked up inside.  :-) >  > H >>If an array is dimensioned for 100 elements, under what circumstances G >>would one ever want the language to allow a reference to element 120?  >  > G > Probably none, but that is totally irrelevant to the statement above. H > The ability to access element 120 in a 100 element array is the resultF > of not having range checking.  Something that was likely left out ofG > C for the same reason it was left out of COBOL and other languages of  > the same era.  Overhead.  G I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and I  E would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out of  C some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL  G today.  Damn hardware is just too fast for anyone to feel they need to  J cut out such overhead.  The benefits far outweigh any perceived penalties.  I >>My opinion is that the computer is there to do the grunt work, not me.  ( >>Why should I be required to do such?   >  > I > Because your smarter than the computer?  I am always amazed when I hear H > people say, "Why did it do that?"  It can only do what it is told, The6 > computer can not make rational decisions on its own.  @ But a computer can follow rules.  Exactly what it's told to do. G Following those rules can be an aid to a programmer.  I may be smarter  G than a computer, but my memory, speed, and preciseness will never come   near the computer.   > B >>                                     Heck, I don't even declare - >>variables.  Let the compiler sift them out.  >  > K > And that is the one thing I definitely don't agree with.  And being stuck I > keeping other people's garbage running I see the danger of it everyday.   C I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my  E career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on  H stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem for I me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many instances.   H When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to declare  such.   = >>>COBOL hjas string size management. a MOVE command will not J >>>buffer-overflow because the generated code knows the size of the source/ >>>and target buffers and enforce those limits.  >>> H >>>But if you want to address individual characters in a field, you thenJ >>>need a kludge to have those characters mapped to an array, but then youE >>>lose buffer oflerflow protection because your logic takes over the   >>>moving and boundary checking. >> >>Why? >>J >>What's wrong with MID(<string>,77,1) to reference the 77th character in G >>a string?  Note, if the string is only 50 characters in length, this   >>returns the null string. >>H >>What's wrong with a language that gives you some useful tools, rather " >>than making you do all the work? >  > H > We weren't talking about this mythical language, we were talking aboutG > languages that actually exist.  There is nothing stopping people from H > creating new languages with all the features they want.  Come to thinkJ > of it, that's what Ada was. And we all saw how far that grand experimentJ > went.  You don't suppose that the proliferation of C could be due to theJ > fact that other languages don't do a lot of what it does and that people > need done?  I Wasn't talking about mythical languages.  That example is a part of some  F versions of BASIC.  It's not alone, having many built-in functions to  aid the programmer.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:30:43 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <43EBFAD3.9D14B008@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Tom Linden wrote:  > >>< > >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis$ > >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote: > >> > >> >. > >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? > >>2 > >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP? > > L > > Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicleH > > with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum > > distillates? > > 0 > > Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD? > > J > > Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the worldK > > "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot?  > > G > > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas?  > > K > > Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough, 5 > > both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.)  > > 6 > > Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find. > > F > > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soI > > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for H > > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that > > way. > H > Perhaps the difference is that the persons needing to invest the moneyH > and time in those products could clearly see a market which guaranteedI > a return on their investment.  Can the same be said for any VMS product 2 > today much less for something as niche as PL/I!!  B There's HOW many viruses, worms, trojans, misc. exploits, etc. for2 WhineBloze? (Yesterday's count, +/- 1000 will do.)   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:05:30 +0000 (UTC) - From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings. Message-ID: <dsgvtp$3j5$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  ~ Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes in article <GdednZ5VLKVpb3beRVn-iQ@libcom.com> dated Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:57:47 -0500: > . >The little I looked at Java reminded me of C.  L Java's primitive statements and blocs mimic those of C, but that's where theK similarity ends.  Java is a strongly typed language.  You can typecast, but I typecasts are checked at runtime.  There is no such thing as a pointer.     0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 20:50:34 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <K8ivTMXQFpK1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > Tom Linden wrote:  >>  : >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis" >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote: >>   >> >, >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? >>  0 >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP?  D > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soG > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for F > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that > way.  - PL/I is not one of the needs they anticipate.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 20:53:35 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <7VRoW0$ZMZBQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <So-dnSM5LPuebXbeRVn-iA@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  D >> The part that can happen much more automatically is calls between' >> modules written using strong typing.   J > I'm having trouble thinking of the few times that I passed something to K > a routine, and had the routine treat it as another type of data.  A very  # > few times.  That's good, I think.   B The feature is for when you (try to) call something with the wrong6 type of data.  Ada will give you a compile-time error.  K > I did find one place I needed to pass something other than data, but the  E > called routine was a system service, not another VAX Basic module.  I > Maybe it's just me being dense again, but I don't think that VAX Basic  C > is too good at passing and/or handling the address of some code.  G > Passing the address of an AST handler routine when setting up an AST  D > timer routine was interesting.  If I had been calling a VAX Basic I > routine, and passed the address of some code, I think that would cause   > some problems.  :-)   < DEC Ada has something called an AST_Entry for use with ASTs.   Again, strongly typed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:00:05 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings, Message-ID: <43EC01A3.B857C046@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:H > I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and IF > would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out ofD > some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL > today.    F Consider the following scenario. You have multiple arrays of differentH sizes. Think item lists where the last item is a 0 to indicate it is the last item.    E You pass this to a subroutine. The subroutine has no wait to know how H many items are in the array, especially since the same subroutine can beE passed different size arrays during the same invocation of the image.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 12:51:59 -0800 * From: "Brice Buchanan" <BriceBu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: PDPs in the news!C Message-ID: <1139518319.619229.224410@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Oooh... Fun!  @ The first computer I ever worked on was a PDP-8/L that was ownedG (leased?) by my high school. I believe I was in 7th grade when by buddy @ first dragged me up there after school one day, so we're talkingB 1969-'70. The only mass storage media available was paper tape, ofE course, but our box did have an optical tape reader (very high-tech). C The high-level language offered was FOCAL, a very small BASIC-style 	 language.   A There was also a TTY in the computer room that was connected to a E time-sharing system at the University of Bridgeport (CT) that offered A BASIC. I have no idea what sort of hardware was on the other end.   B Unfortunately, although FOCAL on that PDP-8 was my introduction toD programming, and we did have a ton of fun with it, once I hit H.S. I@ was more interested in music, sports, schoolwork, and girls (notF necessarily in that order) that I was in becoming a computer jock, andC never even learned how to boot up the wee thing -- but nonetheless, D Michael Moroney, I do remember the look of those yellow-orange-brown switches pretty well!   D I haven't worked on a PDP since those days, but I did see a PDP-8 inG the window of a small, storefront "Computer Museum" in West Newton, MA, F not far from where I living at the time. I was surprised, and thrilledD ("Wow, they haven't all been convered into planters after all") That& was probably about 12 or 15 years ago!  B The oldest box I work on these days is a VAX 4000-500. *yawn*  :-)   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:47:16 -0600 (CST)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)J Subject: Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR]2 Message-ID: <06020912471687_20331674@antinode.org>  $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>  G > I understand your point of view re the word 'data', but words evolve:  > [...] Usage Panel [...]   C    Yeah, yeah.  And I suppose that if all your friends jumped off a F cliff, then you'd do it, too, because then it would be the right thing to do.  - > [...] OTOH, I can't believe some publishers < > still hypenate 'email', but I'll take that as a "variant".  A    "E-mail" is hyphenated to tell the reader that it's pronounced E "ee-mail", rather than "em-ail".  Like most punctuation, one can live H without it, but it's nice to have.  Of course, I miss the good old days, when "today" was "to-day".  @    But this is the wrong forum for this particular(ly) pointless	 argument.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 17:23:42 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>J Subject: Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR]B Message-ID: <1139534622.859044.51150@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   Hi Steven! How art thou?   Steven M. Schweda wrote:& > From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> > I > > I understand your point of view re the word 'data', but words evolve:  > > [...] Usage Panel [...]  > E >    Yeah, yeah.  And I suppose that if all your friends jumped off a H > cliff, then you'd do it, too, because then it would be the right thing > to do.  C 1.) I said I tended to agree with the Buckley essay in the American F Heritage dictionary (second college edition) which frowns upon instantG acceptance of new words just because they're used a lot. The words must F fight their way to acceptability by language experts and the like. ButG words have to, and have, evolved. It just shouldn't get out of control,  as in point number 2:   D 2.) Many, and I mean MANY, of my co-workers have picked up (or neverB learned better) the awful habit of saying things like "should haveF went" and "should have ran" and the like. Boy does that sound awful!!!B I'm trying very hard not to pick it up myself but I hear it almostG every day! Sometimes when I hear "should have went" I shout out 'GONE'! F I don't wish to jump off the cliff just because they all do every day,E but there are so many doing this that they're creating a strong wind!   / > > [...] OTOH, I can't believe some publishers > > > still hypenate 'email', but I'll take that as a "variant". > C >    "E-mail" is hyphenated to tell the reader that it's pronounced G > "ee-mail", rather than "em-ail".  Like most punctuation, one can live J > without it, but it's nice to have.  Of course, I miss the good old days, > when "today" was "to-day".  B >    But this is the wrong forum for this particular(ly) pointless > argument.   E Well, yeah, except it's been a little dull here lately as far as real - technical VMS goes (software issues, anyway).    > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org  >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    AEF    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:59:57 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>J Subject: Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR]+ Message-ID: <43EBF39D.2D5B9301@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > Steven M. Schweda wrote:  > > From: norm.raphael@metso.com > > O > > > > All of which is excessively discouraging.  (Including the use of "data" ! > > > > as a singular noun, [...]  > > >   > > > data is a collective noun.J > > > data can be singular, meaning an aggregation of datums, like agenda. > > > media, too.  > > J > >    When I go looking for advice on Latin plurals, my starting place isF > > not likely to be someone who says "datums".  In the good old days, > F > C'mon, no one says "datums". Well, I've never heard it. I have heardE > "data point" (and even "data points", IIRC) at scientific lectures, 
 > however.  D However, the dictionary lists "referendums" as an accepted plural ofG "referendum" (the proper plural is "referenda" (Latin, neuter gender)).   F Likewise for "forum" and "forums" ("fora"), "aquarium" and "aquariums" ("aquaria"), and so on.   @ I suppose scientists now say "phylums" instead of "phyla", also.  E (Discounting, for the moment, the widespread inability to distinguish ) between the plural and possessive forms.)    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:16:49 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>J Subject: Re: Posting errors on Google [was: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR]+ Message-ID: <43EBF791.943D8D6F@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > Hi Steven! How art thou?   Good Morrow, Alan.   Beest thou well?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 14:15:47 -0800  From: bob@instantwhip.com * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIRB Message-ID: <1139523347.327687.58860@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  E maybe someone found the keys that Palmer used on his handcuffs ... :)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:52:52 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR* Message-ID: <43EBF1F3.CA48EAB@comcast.net>   John Reagan wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > John Reagan wrote: > >>H > >>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money@ > >>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. > >  > > L > > Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so< > > little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS. > >  > ? > I'll assume you aren't directing that at me as I try to be as D > customer-friendly as possible (I was a customer in a former life).  E Not directed at you personally, just reacting the mention of "lots of F money". See related posts in other threads about the cost of acquiringA customers versus the cost of retaining them, or generating repeat 	 business.   J > This is like asking Ford Motor Company, "Dear Ford, I have a 1973 pickupC > truck.  Drives fine.  I can still get lots of after market parts. I > However, I see that you just shipped a new and improved anti-lock brake E > system that will help me out in certain situations.  Can you please B > provide this new brake system for my 1973 truck free of charge?" > A > Now, I understand it isn't a fair comparision, but it is close.   8 To be fair, the after market fills that gap rather well.  H > It isn't just building BACKUP for those older OpenVMS releases, but inI > many cases, it is literally reimplementing the change (granted, in some J > cases, it would just be a cut-n-paste operation, but even those go wrong
 > sometimes).   G Having been an application programmer in a past life, I quickly learned A to make such code easily upgradeable so that long-sought features C arriving in current versions could be easily back-ported to earlier D versions where the needed level of modularity allowed. The customers> were only internal, but they were, none the less, grateful andD appreciative, and paid us back by making sure our management knew we were looking out for them.  F > Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how, > many people would install it and trust it?  : How many third-party companies survive doing exactly that?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:45:41 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43EBF044.AD36F64E@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >> > >>>Dave Froble wrote:  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>>> > >>>>H > >>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than@ > >>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). > >>>>>  > >>>>0 > >>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >>>  > >>> L > >>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsJ > >>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. > >>>  > >>L > >>I know what you meant.  My post was a not subtle way of saying "go pound> > >>salt".  I really don't understand these types of requests. > >  > > H > > You're obviously not effected by ISV abandonment that locks you into > > V5.5-2 or such.  > B > While that is an issue for some, there is no linkage to what VMS; > development can/should do with old versions of utilities.  > 
 > >>It's hard K > >>enough keeping the current version of any software working.  To ask for L > >>a feature to be placed in an older version assumes that it can easily be > >>plugged in.  > >  > > K > > Well, no it doesn't. Speaking for myself, at least, I realize that code J > > - especially code as old as VMS BACKUP, even the current incarnation -A > > is likely not sufficiently modular as to allow for extension, I > > enhancement, etc. without a fair amount of work. I just don't dismiss K > > the possibility out-of-hand that it may be possible, and that those who B > > lag behind through no fault if their own would appreciate someH > > enhancements to their otherwise burdensome environment (say "DILOG",$ > > "CMD", "CIQBA", "Emulex", etc.). > >  > > > > >>This assumption too many times will be invalid.  To expectL > >>an in-depth analysis of every prior version of any utility is asking way
 > >>too much.  > >  > > I > > A quick look-see would probably be sufficient to say whether it looks K > > possible or whether the "looker" shuddered at the thought of attempting  > > to tackle the older code.  > E > No, a quick look-see is NOT sufficient.  I cannot count the times I G > broke something because of a quick look-see.  Many times when someone F > thought that their mod should be simple.  Guess who is to blame when > something is broke?   H "Looks possible" is hardly casting anything in stone, or commiting one's self to an irreversible course.   D > > Along the same line as "innocent until proven guilty", how 'bout& > > "possible until proven otherwise"? > >  > G > No, it's more like not possible until proven otherwise.  That proving J > otherwise would include a through analysis of the existing app, what the: > mod would do to existing capabilities, and a significantF > re-certification of the application, including all capabilities, not" > just the newly added capability.  D Seems like a lot of work to go through for a simple "I told you so".  F How much of your flying did you approach with the attitude "This crateH will never fly!" or "No way in hell!"? How many safely concluded flightsG do you think you could you have conducted while holding such a mindset?   I > I just did a quicky fix on Monday, and immediately received teeth marks I > on my ass.  Maybe I'll never learn, but I cannot condemn those who seem  > to have learned.  : "Judicious" is a healthy word to have in one's vocabulary.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:46:49 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43EBF088.44BFDB59@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > John Reagan wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >> > >>>Dave Froble wrote:  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>>> > >>>>H > >>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than@ > >>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). > >>>>>  > >>>>0 > >>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >>>  > >>> L > >>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsJ > >>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. > >>>  > >>I > >>We have some rather strict guidelines about backporting.  In general, K > >>customers who have stayed with older versions of OpenVMS, do so because  > >>they are stable. > >  > > L > > Some of them, yes. Others simply have no choice. The ISV has vanished orI > > moved on to the The Dark Side, VESTing is not possible and/or lack of L > > source code are likely other reasons for lagging behind. Hardly anyone's > > "fault". > >  > > H > >>Backporting new features, while a worthy goal, increases the risk ofC > >>instability (Guy can't be perfect all of the time).  BACKUP, in I > >>particular, demands even more paranoia since it is complex, and it is % > >>hard to test in all combinations.  > >>H > >>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money@ > >>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. > >  > > L > > Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so< > > little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS. > >  >  > Ok, I see how it works.  >  > Someone else shafts you. > ! > VMS engineering gets the blame.  >  > Is that right?  , Huh? Non-capisco - where did THAT come from?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:54:11 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43EBF242.534AF7AE@comcast.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > [snip]> > Look at the list of ECOs, and tell me people want it longer.  @ Given some of the posts here about "features" experienced by the0 posters, I'd say that is quite a fair statement!   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:33:13 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs* Message-ID: <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>  H Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID ofE a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening and > V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were1 "visible", but the files were at least available.    FFO    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 20:58:42 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs3 Message-ID: <C9fo01pUHKV7@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:   J > Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID ofG > a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening and @ > V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were3 > "visible", but the files were at least available.   G ISO 9660 requires that files be accessible by standard names as well as F by other naming methods.  Of course Joliet is not exactly a compatibleF extension as authorized by ISO 9660, but it does allow compliance with that one point.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:41:51 -0500C From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> / Subject: What is this about - VMS advertising ? 8 Message-ID: <tyOGf.8591$bW6.5816@bignews7.bellsouth.net>  
 See this link    ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/         ! There are two Windows Media Files   $ Looks like an attempt at advertising  G Or is this old news and I have been living under a rock for a while!?!?    David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:19:16 -0500) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> 3 Subject: Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ? : Message-ID: <S5QGf.38829$1e5.690563@news20.bellglobal.com>  G "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> wrote in  : message news:tyOGf.8591$bW6.5816@bignews7.bellsouth.net... > See this link  >  > ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/  > # > There are two Windows Media Files  >   & Oops. I only see two MPEG format files  & > Looks like an attempt at advertising > I > Or is this old news and I have been living under a rock for a while!?!?  >  > David B Turner > Island Computers US Corp >   L I had seen the smaller file at least two years ago (since there is a little A flash of Carly then this was made before she was handed her cap).    The larger file is new to me.   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:03:45 -0500* From: "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>3 Subject: Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ? 6 Message-ID: <WIQGf.450$S03.254@bignews1.bellsouth.net>  $ is this a sign of things to come????  ) They really seem to push the defense side    dt5 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message  4 news:S5QGf.38829$1e5.690563@news20.bellglobal.com... > I > "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> wrote in  < > message news:tyOGf.8591$bW6.5816@bignews7.bellsouth.net... >> See this link >>  >> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/ >>$ >> There are two Windows Media Files >> > ( > Oops. I only see two MPEG format files > ' >> Looks like an attempt at advertising  >>J >> Or is this old news and I have been living under a rock for a while!?!? >> >> David B Turner  >> Island Computers US Corp  >> > G > I had seen the smaller file at least two years ago (since there is a  J > little flash of Carly then this was made before she was handed her cap). >  > The larger file is new to me.  >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:24:00 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ? + Message-ID: <43EBDD19.61BCDBE@teksavvy.com>   " > >> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/ > >>& > >> There are two Windows Media Files    6 "Fichier Audio MPEG" is :  MPEG audio File in  French.   Is that server in France ?    D VMS' 25th anniversary was a few years ago. And having a file in someG obscure FTP server instead of being distributed to TV media to be aired ! in prime time isn't advertising.    0 I woudl call it internal communications at best.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:19:10 -0500 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> 3 Subject: Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ? < Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060209171743.0b8ad118@patmedia.net>  C At 04:41 PM 2/9/2006, David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  >See this link >  >ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/ >  >  >  > " >There are two Windows Media Files > % >Looks like an attempt at advertising  > H >Or is this old news and I have been living under a rock for a while!?!?  D It's old news. Those have been around since the 25th Anniversary of 1 VMS in 2002. One of the files is dated 4/23/2003.    Ken    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.081 ************************                                                                                                  SDXl\~qLbDGa-: -47HJEfї.ᎇ@UrU0_H/~%G_'Y;p`zAlg~A_"~3X&	?/qpm<"9	JlNfcĕ?]z޹(UK]p(hВ0 `{5Iό˔ɜYNRL:VZ-.2:JC	'R$ ?E'|(;P]O&i1ELtN;o=O<BoT\Tw4&4JGˠ7/%zʿC}'Ϳso	-[Dk	T
?óQ8G	Cu!EpiGAPz6Ű9V?M/DfN߽ߍ]<xqZWrH=nlseЄ<<