0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 10 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 82      Contents: Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS...9 Re: Console floppy drive emulation - interleave problems.  Daft question. Re: Daft question.5 Re: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801  I need your DS10L systems 6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc...6 Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... Re: LDAP authenication Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings = OT: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability  Re: PDPs in the news!  Re: PDPs in the news! % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty % Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty " Security experts say no secure OS!& Re: Security experts say no secure OS!! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR  Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs  Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs * Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ?* Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:04:46 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... 9 Message-ID: <idadnTtY4K10p3HenZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>  >>> K >>>>There may be all the obsticles you mention, and more.  However, go back K >>>>to the original statement.  "If I was the #1 person in VMS management". I >>>> In that situation, I would do whatever it took to gather the contact I >>>>information for as many VMS customers as possible.  Whatever it took!  >>>  >>>  >>> E >>>OK, i see your text in different light now. (I guess your original / >>>"horseshit" clouded my original reaction :-(  >>< >>Well, as already written, it's HP's job, not anyone elses. >  >  > Elucidate, please. > E > I agree that HP should be pulling the lion's share of the marketing  > load.  > I > As entrepreneurs, however, it is in our best interest to do what we can D > where we can to bring VMS to light and present it against anything > against which it can compete.   / There's only so much uphill pushing you can do.   J > There's lots of products out there which are marketed almost exclusively  > by the people who resell them.  F I was a reseller.  I didn't move a half million, or million dollars a H year, so I wasn't good enough for them.  Many other resellers have also 	 been cut.   ( Who was it I was suppost to be loyal to?  + > A fair number of manufacturers don't even I > have retail channels, only distributors, and a bunch of those only sell  > to resellers.   + As long as you're allowed to be a reseller.   H How things ended up, my customer got a better deal from someone selling G at or just over margin to get his volume up, which would cut my volume  A even more.  DEC always said that such was not allowed, but never  G enforced it.  What were they going to do, cut the guy with the greater   dollar volume.  I > So, yes - I can fault HP for not doing anything at all, but no: I can't - > lay the entire burden at HP's feet, no way.  >   A If HP does nothing at all, then I can say that they are to blame.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:06:14 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... 9 Message-ID: <idadnTpY4K2ipnHenZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  >  >>Alan Greig wrote:  >>K >>>Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person ( >>>in VMS management" than the last one? >>I >>If VMS' auto-pilot keeps it on the course pre-set by HP, VMS management  >>don't need to do much. >>F >>On the other hand, maybe they are fighting a huge internal corporateJ >>fight to save VMS and aren't getting any recognition for this behind the >>scenes work. >  > J > I'd like to think that "they" are working stealthily, silently, and thatG > at some point in their plan they'll reach critical mass and the whole G > thing will burst into the light in a manner that is grand, unexpected , > and impossible for the industry to ignore. > $ > How's *THAT* for a grand illusion? >   > I got a bridge for sale.  Downtown Brooklyn.  What's your bid?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:22:39 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... , Message-ID: <43ECD9E6.813E72E4@teksavvy.com>   > David J Dachtera wrote: K > > As entrepreneurs, however, it is in our best interest to do what we can F > > where we can to bring VMS to light and present it against anything! > > against which it can compete.    Dave Froble wrote:1 > There's only so much uphill pushing you can do.       5 Correct.  You can add small positive advertising from A customers/consultants to the lion's share of positive advertising  expected from the vendor.   G But when the vendor starts off with negative advertising, all we can do ( is reduce the damage done by the vendor.    E I should note that no advertising is a net negative advertising for a G company such as HP. Because HP spends so much on advertsising, the lack F of any serious money for VMS advertising sends a strong signal that HP< does not intend/wish to grow VMS. And that is very negative.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:57:18 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> B Subject: Re: Console floppy drive emulation - interleave problems.E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602101054590.28352@localhost.localdomain>   ( On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Timothy Stark wrote:  C > I am looking for Files-11 specs for RX01 disk images, etc.  Does   > anyone have a copy?   G Are you referring to the ODS-1 and ODS-2 specifications, common across  A all supported media, describing the index file, home block, file   headers, directories, etc.?    - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 02:08:37 -08001 From: "Leigh" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk>  Subject: Daft question. C Message-ID: <1139566117.403498.165410@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   B This is going to sound like a daft question and I think I know the, answer to it already but I'll ask it anyway.  G Two HSJ40's in a dual-redundant config with the cables going off to the : respective ports on the star coupler - 7 & 6 in this case.  E >From the manuals it implies that the MSCP id etc are set the same on . each 40 which makes sense but is this correct?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:24:48 -0800 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Daft question. 0 Message-ID: <C011D420.1B855%roktsci@comcast.net>   On 2/10/06 2:08 AM, in article> 1139566117.403498.165410@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Leigh"* <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:  D > This is going to sound like a daft question and I think I know the. > answer to it already but I'll ask it anyway. > I > Two HSJ40's in a dual-redundant config with the cables going off to the < > respective ports on the star coupler - 7 & 6 in this case. > G >> From the manuals it implies that the MSCP id etc are set the same on 0 > each 40 which makes sense but is this correct? > J I'm not clear about the MSCP Id terminology, but if your are talking aboutE the NODE number, NO they must be unique. If you are talking about the K allocation class for the disks or tape devices, Yes all the disk allocation L classes should be the same and all the tape allocation classes should be the same.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:17:58 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)> Subject: Re: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801$ Message-ID: <dshen5$9bs$1@online.de>  B In article <1139535257.275817.91430@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, erosional@hotmail.com writes:   H > I have a Cisco 2801 that uses an SDSL connection (IP Range 1) and needI > to set up a failover to an ADSL connection (IP Range 2) should the SDSL F > one suddenly fail. The dilemma is.......how do I do this so that NAT? > translation to the internal network continues to work without 2 > interruption...or at least minimal interruption?  E A while back, JF posted an answer to a similar query of mine.  If you B don't care about the IP address of incoming connections at the VMSH level, use a BACKWARDS NAT router between VMS and the other two routers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:10:00 -0500 C From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> " Subject: I need your DS10L systems5 Message-ID: <MM2Hf.1820$bW.23@bignews8.bellsouth.net>    617Mhz only    Cabinets of these is preferred   David    --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 23:09:02 -0800  From: dooleys@snowy.net.au? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... C Message-ID: <1139555341.929926.164590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    The other commands are...   E $! Copyright Compaq Computer Corporation, 1998.  All rights reserved.  $!9 $! Define foreign commands for managing a TCP/IP network.  $!# $! BSD Network Management Utilities  $!- $ arp           :== $sys$system:tcpip$arp.exe 0 $ finger        :== $sys$system:tcpip$finger.exe2 $ ifconfig      :== $sys$system:tcpip$ifconfig.exe1 $ netstat       :== $sys$system:tcpip$netstat.exe . $ ping          :== $sys$system:tcpip$ping.exe/ $ route         :== $sys$system:tcpip$route.exe 3 $ sysconfig     :== $sys$system:tcpip$sysconfig.exe 4 $ traceroute    :== $sys$system:tcpip$traceroute.exe $! $! DHCP Utilities  $!F $ if f$search("sys$common:[sysmgr]tcpip$dhcp_setupcommands.com") .nes. "" -9     then @sys$common:[sysmgr]tcpip$dhcp_setupcommands.com  $! $! DNS/BIND Utilities  $!- $ dig           :== $sys$system:tcpip$dig.exe 5 $ named         :== $sys$system:tcpip$bind_server.exe = $ ndc           :== $sys$system:tcpip$bind_server_control.exe 2 $ nslookup      :== $sys$system:tcpip$nslookup.exe2 $ nsupdate      :== $sys$system:tcpip$nsupdate.exe: $ xfer          :== $sys$system:tcpip$bind_server_xfer.exe $! $! NFS Utilities $!1 $ nfsstat       :== $sys$system:tcpip$nfsstat.exe  $! $! NTP Utilities $!1 $ ntpdate       :== $sys$system:tcpip$ntpdate.exe / $ ntpdc         :== $sys$system:tcpip$ntpdc.exe . $ ntpq          :== $sys$system:tcpip$ntpq.exe2 $ ntptrace      :== $sys$system:tcpip$ntptrace.exe $! $! SNMP Utilities  $!. $ mosy          :== $sys$system:tcpip$mosy.exe/ $ snmpi         :== $sys$system:tcpip$snmpi.exe 6 $ snmp_request  :== $sys$system:tcpip$snmp_request.exe6 $ snmp_traprcv  :== $sys$system:tcpip$snmp_traprcv.exe6 $ snmp_trapsnd  :== $sys$system:tcpip$snmp_trapsnd.exe $! $! Encoding/Decoding Utilities $!2 $ uudecode      :== $sys$system:tcpip$uudecode.exe2 $ uuencode      :== $sys$system:tcpip$uuencode.exe $! $! Miscellaneous Utilities $!- $ xdm           :== $sys$system:tcpip$xdm.exe 2 $ iptunnel      :== $sys$system:tcpip$iptunnel.exe2 $ lprsetup      :== $sys$system:tcpip$lprsetup.exe4 $ metricview    :== $sys$system:tcpip$metricview.exe2 $ ripquery      :== $sys$system:tcpip$ripquery.exe2 $ tcpver*sions  :== $sys$system:tcpip$versions.exe. $ ttcp          :== $sys$system:tcpip$ttcp.exe  = To find out why sessions are dropping you need to look at the @ accounting log to find out the user/terminal/ip involved and the; error message (device timeout?) then use tcptrace to record 2 session packets from specific remote ip addresses. Phil   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 09:08:38 +0100/ From: huber@NIRWANA-mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) ? Subject: Re: Invoking Unix Type Commands such as netstat etc... + Message-ID: <Aaqd4o4eoYh5@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>   o In article <1139487669.553714.6880@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Shawn M." <shawnm1964@sbcglobal.net> writes:   > I konw if I use the following:$ > @sys$manager:tcpip$define_commandsG > That I can use Unix type commands such as netstat, ifconifg etc.  Can D > anyone point me to a place or help me out with the other unix type+ > commands this will allow me to carry out. I > I have users who are dropping from the system via telnet sessions and I  > want to monitor the network.  ? Look into tcpip$define_commands.com to see how the commands are 8 defined: as DCL symbols resulting in "foreign commands".D Read HELP DCL_TIP, in the VMS documentation the DCL Concepts manual.  B In general, if You "Unix-type" command is realized in an excutable   dev:[dir]foo.exe then the command is defined as     foo :== $dev:[dir]foo   % If the command is a DCL command file     dev:[dir]foo.com then the command is defined as   foo :== @dev:[dir]foo   A There is (I think since VMS V6) a possibility like the Unix PATH: 4 a directory search list defined by logical DCL$PATH:C All *.com,*.exe (in that order) in DCL$PATH: are search for a name  ? match with the command verb and executed as if the command was  : defined as foo :== @DCL$PATH:foo or foo := $DCL$PATH:foo .  1 Final possibility specific for Unix command sets: @ there is the GNV ("GNU for VMS") project: see on the HP OpenVMS  home page: link to open source. C GNV provides a bash shell and the basic shell-,file-,text-utilities  of the Unix world.F If only few bash commands are needed, they can be invoked from the DCL- command line using the following definitions:    $ ls == "bash -c ""ls" $ rm == "bash -c ""rm" $ cat == "bash -c ""cat"   --  @    Joseph Huber , Muenchen,Germany:  http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 10:32:53 -0800 From: schortingh_j@mercer.edu  Subject: Re: LDAP authenication C Message-ID: <1139596373.673882.175870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Rick,    Two followup questions:   A Can I install e-directory services and replicate from the Red Hat  server to e-directory?  - Any time frame for the upgrades to ldap acme.    Thanks.    Rick Barry wrote:  > The short answer is no.  > M > The present LDAP ACME EAK is VMS-specific and requires Enterprise Directory I > which supports the VMS-specific schema. This is useful for centralizing = > authentication for large groups of VMS systems or clusters.  > J > There is work going on to enhance the LDAP ACME to support standard LDAPA > authentication as provided by LDAP-compliant directory servers.  >  > Richard Barry  > OpenVMS System Software Group  > Hewlett-Packard Company  > Nashua, NH > , > <schortingh_j@mercer.edu> wrote in message> > news:1139432430.684442.76780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...H > > We are reviewing the possibility of having our vms systems / windowsD > > applications authenicate aganist  the ldap included with red hatK > > enterprise.  Can the ldap (eak) be used with acme to allow this type of  > > authenication. > >  > > Thanks.  > >  > > Jim Schortinghouse > > VMS Systems Manager  > > Mercer University  > > 478.301.2846 > > schortingh_j@Mercer.edu  > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:17:47 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <idadnTVY4K1poHHenZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > H >>I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and IF >>would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out ofD >>some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL >>today. >  >  > H > Consider the following scenario. You have multiple arrays of differentJ > sizes. Think item lists where the last item is a 0 to indicate it is the
 > last item.   > G > You pass this to a subroutine. The subroutine has no wait to know how J > many items are in the array, especially since the same subroutine can beG > passed different size arrays during the same invocation of the image.    Wrong!  H If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed - to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds.   D You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a  decent language.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2006 11:33:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <453c0dF4ov0hU1@individual.net>   + In article <43EBFAD3.9D14B008@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  . >> In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>,? >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >> > Tom Linden wrote: >> >> = >> >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis % >> >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote:  >> >>  >> >> > / >> >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS?  >> >> 3 >> >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP?  >> >M >> > Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicle I >> > with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum  >> > distillates?  >> >1 >> > Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD?  >> >K >> > Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the world L >> > "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot? >> >H >> > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas? >> >L >> > Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough,6 >> > both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.) >> >7 >> > Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find.  >> >G >> > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get so J >> > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing forI >> > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that 	 >> > way.  >>  I >> Perhaps the difference is that the persons needing to invest the money I >> and time in those products could clearly see a market which guaranteed J >> a return on their investment.  Can the same be said for any VMS product3 >> today much less for something as niche as PL/I!!  > D > There's HOW many viruses, worms, trojans, misc. exploits, etc. for4 > WhineBloze? (Yesterday's count, +/- 1000 will do.)  H What does that have to do with how people percieve VMS (If they are even0 aware of its existence!)  Perception is reality.   bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 05:25:24 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <7pv6kzq1eGoc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43EC01A3.B857C046@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote:I >> I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and I G >> would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out of E >> some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL 	 >> today.  >  > H > Consider the following scenario. You have multiple arrays of differentJ > sizes. Think item lists where the last item is a 0 to indicate it is the
 > last item.   > G > You pass this to a subroutine. The subroutine has no wait to know how J > many items are in the array, especially since the same subroutine can beG > passed different size arrays during the same invocation of the image.   B If you are doing this properly within a higher level language, youC pass that item list internally as an array, so the length is known. C It is only on the final call to a system service that you pass just - an address and rely upon the null terminator.   F This is really no different than relying on counted strings in generalD and then tacking on a null character terminator if you have to stoop to calling code written in C.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 06:58:16 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <uo6Deg6uXanw@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43EC01A3.B857C046@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote:I >> I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and I G >> would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out of E >> some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL 	 >> today.  >  > H > Consider the following scenario. You have multiple arrays of differentJ > sizes. Think item lists where the last item is a 0 to indicate it is the
 > last item.   > G > You pass this to a subroutine. The subroutine has no wait to know how J > many items are in the array, especially since the same subroutine can beG > passed different size arrays during the same invocation of the image.   6 In Fortran, you could pass this array with the syntax:   	integer *4	array ( 99 ) 	integer		elements_used / 0 /   D 	... fill in the array and set an appropriate value in elements_used  " 	call sub ( array, elements_used )   	end    	subroutine sub ( item_list, n )
 	integer n 	integer *4	item_list ( n )   ! 	... do your thing with the array  	... bounds checking works   	end  D Just because you are using in-band termination doesn't mean that youA can't track the array length out-of-band and have automatic range  checks work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:44:56 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4re46emzgicya@hyrrokkin>  . On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:00:05 -0500, JF Mezei  % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    > Dave Froble wrote:I >> I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and I G >> would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out of E >> some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL 	 >> today.  >  > H > Consider the following scenario. You have multiple arrays of differentJ > sizes. Think item lists where the last item is a 0 to indicate it is the > last item. > G > You pass this to a subroutine. The subroutine has no wait to know how J > many items are in the array, especially since the same subroutine can beG > passed different size arrays during the same invocation of the image.   F You are thinking inside the box.  This is not the way to do it.  Use  	 *-extents E which will pass a dope vector so the size will be determined by the    prologue of + the subroutine and appropriately allocated.    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2006 14:05:53 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <453ku1F4mtsqU1@individual.net>   3 In article <ynkljqYQPCRr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:[ > In article <GdednZ5VLKVpb3beRVn-iQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>  0 >> The little I looked at Java reminded me of C. > E >    The syntax is C based.  It's the most Fortran-like language I've G >    ever seen written in C like syntax.  As a matter of fact, it looks 8 >    like the Java designers learned a lot from Fortran.    Ratfor?          :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:52:51 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <43ec9aac$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Dave Froble wrote:E > I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my  G > career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on  J > stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem for K > me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many instances.  > J > When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to declare  > such.   F Even a programmer with a poor typewriting does not use that much time D typing the code his writes.  The programmer uses much more time for G reading, debugging, and understanding the code.  Thus languages should  E make code readable, easy to understand, and as many errors should be  I caught before debugging.  Say your finger slips, such that you get a new  H implicitly declare variable.  It will take you much longer time finding A that bug with a debugger than if it is reported by the compiler.  D Further, you will have to use more time for proofreading your code, H because you have to look for faulty typings.  At last it will not be as D easy to maintain, because later programmers will have more problems 8 finding out how and for what purpose variables are used.  F I am sure that the extra work of typing declarations is an investment H that is paid back before the code has gone into production, and is paid 1 back many times if the code has to be maintained.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 08:00:17 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <lCsH1d0SgjsR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > E > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas?   &    At least for Alpha:  AT&T, for one.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 08:01:51 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <ynkljqYQPCRr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <GdednZ5VLKVpb3beRVn-iQ@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > / > The little I looked at Java reminded me of C.   C    The syntax is C based.  It's the most Fortran-like language I've E    ever seen written in C like syntax.  As a matter of fact, it looks 6    like the Java designers learned a lot from Fortran.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 08:06:00 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <QtCT5u9wpc4U@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <453cckF4ov0hU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > F > Yes, Java became our starting language for the first two programmingJ > courses of our CS and CIS program (replacing Ada, which replaced Pascal)L > a few years ago.  Just the other day one of the professors was complainingF > about the lack of pointers because there just are times when using aI > pointer is the best way to do something.  And this particular professor K > has probably never written a C program more complicated tha "hello world" ' > so we are not talking a C bigot here.   D    I haven't found anything I could do with pointers that I can't do    in Java.   B    Need dynamically allocated memory, fine:  it looks like arrays.  .    Need the equivalent of *void: use Object[].  E    Only union isn't directly supported and we worked that one out the     first time we used Java.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:21:35 -0500 # From: sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings0 Message-ID: <1139581277.552426@nntp.acecape.com>   Dave Froble wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:< >> In article <ZaidnQjuNs17XHfenZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@libcom.com>,0 >>     Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >> >>> JF Mezei wrote:  >>>  >>>> Dave Froble wrote:  >>>> >>>>K >>>>> It's been my experience that if a language makes it rather hard to do K >>>>> something dangerous, then by the time one figures out how to do such, D >>>>> they usually know the ramifications, and won't do such unless  >>>>> absolutelyI >>>>> necessary, and hopefully, provide some protections against mis-use.  >>>> >>>> >>>>( >>>> There is another wait to word this. >>>>K >>>> If a language has too many restrictions, the programmer will find ugly E >>>> workaround/kludges to perform stuff which the pedantic language  
 >>>> prevents  >>>> him from doing. >>>>J >>>> C was designed to remove limitations and allow the programmer do what >>>> needs to be done. >>> , >>> Ok, I'll refrain from the 'H' word.  :-) >> >>A >> Go ahead.  It's bad to keep that stress locked up inside.  :-)  >> >>J >>> If an array is dimensioned for 100 elements, under what circumstances I >>> would one ever want the language to allow a reference to element 120?  >> >>H >> Probably none, but that is totally irrelevant to the statement above.I >> The ability to access element 120 in a 100 element array is the result G >> of not having range checking.  Something that was likely left out of H >> C for the same reason it was left out of COBOL and other languages of >> the same era.  Overhead.  > I > I think it's totally relavent.  Range checking is a restriction, and I  G > would not want to be without it.  While it may have been left out of  E > some older stuff, there's no valid reason to leave it out of a HLL  I > today.  Damn hardware is just too fast for anyone to feel they need to  L > cut out such overhead.  The benefits far outweigh any perceived penalties. > G >>> My opinion is that the computer is there to do the grunt work, not  . >>> me. Why should I be required to do such?   >> >>J >> Because your smarter than the computer?  I am always amazed when I hearI >> people say, "Why did it do that?"  It can only do what it is told, The 7 >> computer can not make rational decisions on its own.  > B > But a computer can follow rules.  Exactly what it's told to do. I > Following those rules can be an aid to a programmer.  I may be smarter  I > than a computer, but my memory, speed, and preciseness will never come   > near the computer. >  >>C >>>                                     Heck, I don't even declare  / >>> variables.  Let the compiler sift them out.  >> >>L >> And that is the one thing I definitely don't agree with.  And being stuckJ >> keeping other people's garbage running I see the danger of it everyday. > E > I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my  G > career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on  J > stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem for K > me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many instances.  > J > When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to declare  > such.  > ? >>>> COBOL hjas string size management. a MOVE command will not L >>>> buffer-overflow because the generated code knows the size of the source1 >>>> and target buffers and enforce those limits.  >>>>J >>>> But if you want to address individual characters in a field, you thenL >>>> need a kludge to have those characters mapped to an array, but then youG >>>> lose buffer oflerflow protection because your logic takes over the " >>>> moving and boundary checking. >>>  >>> Why? >>> I >>> What's wrong with MID(<string>,77,1) to reference the 77th character  G >>> in a string?  Note, if the string is only 50 characters in length,  ! >>> this returns the null string.  >>> J >>> What's wrong with a language that gives you some useful tools, rather $ >>> than making you do all the work? >> >>I >> We weren't talking about this mythical language, we were talking about H >> languages that actually exist.  There is nothing stopping people fromI >> creating new languages with all the features they want.  Come to think K >> of it, that's what Ada was. And we all saw how far that grand experiment K >> went.  You don't suppose that the proliferation of C could be due to the K >> fact that other languages don't do a lot of what it does and that people 
 >> need done?  > K > Wasn't talking about mythical languages.  That example is a part of some  H > versions of BASIC.  It's not alone, having many built-in functions to  > aid the programmer.  >   J PDP-11 RSTS Basic (has MID RIGHT LEFT) and other interpreted languages allH need to incur the overhead of run time and bounds checking. It has to doK with the way data fields are allocated and the need to protect the run time H processor. Compilers don't necessarily need this to run so it becomes an 'optional' capability.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:22:19 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <43eca195$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:0 > In article <dsgvtp$3j5$1@newslocal.mitre.org>,2 > 	klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) writes:N >>Java's primitive statements and blocs mimic those of C, but that's where theM >>similarity ends.  Java is a strongly typed language.  You can typecast, but K >>typecasts are checked at runtime.  There is no such thing as a pointer.    >> >  > F > Yes, Java became our starting language for the first two programmingJ > courses of our CS and CIS program (replacing Ada, which replaced Pascal)L > a few years ago.  Just the other day one of the professors was complainingF > about the lack of pointers because there just are times when using aI > pointer is the best way to do something.  And this particular professor K > has probably never written a C program more complicated tha "hello world" ' > so we are not talking a C bigot here.  >  > bill > G It is only on the surface that Java does not have pointers.  Under the  I surface any object is located on the heap and is referred with pointers.  G   Yes, Java code may some times become a little more complicated than,  E e.g., C++ because pointers are hidden under the surface, but I would  G really like to know what had to be implemented in a very different way  / in Java from what is done in C, Ada, or Pascal.   F Besides both Ada and Pascal are languages where pointers are used for F implementing data structures when arrays are not appropriate.  So Ada . and Pascal do not differ from C on that topic.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:53:27 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4ribddbzgicya@hyrrokkin>  6 On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:29:58 -0600, David J Dachtera  " <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote:  >>: >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis" >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote: >> >> >, >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? >>0 >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP? > J > Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicleF > with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum > distillates? > . > Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD? > H > Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the worldI > "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot?  > E > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas?  > I > Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough, 3 > both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.)   I Not quite accurate.  Dec did but not IBM, they came out blazing in 1981    IIRCH I remember reading somewhere at the time that IBM produced a Selectric   typrewriter F every 17 secs in their Greensborough factory, which was converted to  
 producing PCs J The PC business as you know was sold to Lenovo but IBM effectively still   controls it.  > 4 > Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find. > D > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soG > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for F > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that > way. > E I think what perhaps frustrates so many on this list is the lack of   	 marketing I of VMS.  There is no marketing skill within VMS managment, which is why    theyJ are reactive rather than proactive, it is an unfortunate legacy from the   fat and L happy days of the VAX.  Even then they were not proactive, just lucky.  In   manyH ways dealing with VMS management is like dealing some government agency.  J Now in the case of PL/I on Itanium, there is a considerable cutomer base  
 out there.H An example.  A few months ago we got a call from Mittal Steel, who are   still using I VAXen in many of their plants around the world.  They would probably be    buying somewhereH around 400 to 500 systems for their 25 or so plants. They have a large   body of code andG applications written in PL/I.  They wanted to migrate to Itanium, but    lacking PL/IG HP now opens themselves up to competition, because they have no added    value to offer. I If Mittal is going to unnecessarily spend the money to rewrite all this    code, why shouldC they reward HP with the business, who have placed them in such an    unfavorable position. F And remember, rewriting code is no easy task and takes many years to   achieve stability.E In general, PL/I code cannot be easily rewritten in C, but requires    reengineering the I task.  It is like asking a Mercedes Benz owner to upgrade to a Chevrolet.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:24:17 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings( Message-ID: <ops4rparhnzgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:15:04 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:  G > Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will   L > parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that are  K > referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine whether   K > it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate sections of    > code.  >   / If you use a _real_ compiler it does it for you  PLI       /CROSS_REFERENCE             /NOCROSS_REFERENCE (D)   I       Specifies whether the compiler is to generate cross  references  in I       the  listing  file.   If you specify /CROSS_REFERENCE, the compiler I       lists, for each variable referenced  in  the  procedure,  the  line ?       numbers of the lines on which the variable is referenced.   <       You must specify /LIST/SHOW=MAP with /CROSS_REFERENCE.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:15:04 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <rrKdnWHjzY9pVHHeRVn-iw@libcom.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > F >> I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my H >> career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on G >> stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem  F >> for me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many 
 >> instances.  >>C >> When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to   >> declare such. >  > H > Even a programmer with a poor typewriting does not use that much time F > typing the code his writes.  The programmer uses much more time for I > reading, debugging, and understanding the code.  Thus languages should  G > make code readable, easy to understand, and as many errors should be  K > caught before debugging.  Say your finger slips, such that you get a new  J > implicitly declare variable.  It will take you much longer time finding C > that bug with a debugger than if it is reported by the compiler.    D Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will I parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that are  H referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine whether H it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate sections of  code.   F > Further, you will have to use more time for proofreading your code, / > because you have to look for faulty typings.    1 Proof reading your code is a bad thing ??????????    > At last it will not be as F > easy to maintain, because later programmers will have more problems : > finding out how and for what purpose variables are used.  A When very descriptive variable names are used, this is less of a  G problem.  Further, declaring an obscure name for a variable is no help  D to later programmers.  This is a red herring.  The declaration of a B variable is of no help in determining what a variable is used for.  H > I am sure that the extra work of typing declarations is an investment J > that is paid back before the code has gone into production, and is paid 3 > back many times if the code has to be maintained.   E I'll freely admit that there is value.  I also will say that in most  H instances I've been able to get along fine without doing so.  It's nice ' that a compiler gives you such options.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:17:39 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <43ecd8bd$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Dave Froble wrote: > Karsten Nyblad wrote:  >  >> Dave Froble wrote:  >>G >>> I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my  I >>> career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on  H >>> stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem G >>> for me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many   >>> instances. >>> D >>> When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to  >>> declare such.  >> >> >>I >> Even a programmer with a poor typewriting does not use that much time  G >> typing the code his writes.  The programmer uses much more time for  J >> reading, debugging, and understanding the code.  Thus languages should H >> make code readable, easy to understand, and as many errors should be H >> caught before debugging.  Say your finger slips, such that you get a G >> new implicitly declare variable.  It will take you much longer time  L >> finding that bug with a debugger than if it is reported by the compiler.  >  > F > Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will K > parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that are  J > referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine whether J > it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate sections of  > code.   F Well, then you had better not make the same typo twice.  Being bad at F spelling I could easily make the same spelling error twice.  I have a B hunch that writing and using that utility has taken you a sizable < fraction of the time you have save not writing declarations.  G >> Further, you will have to use more time for proofreading your code,  0 >> because you have to look for faulty typings.  >  > 3 > Proof reading your code is a bad thing ??????????   C Certainly not, but proofreading to find errors that could be found  E automatically is a waste of resources.  And you can look for only so  ) many different types of errors at a time.   H >> At last it will not be as easy to maintain, because later programmersR > will have more problems finding out how and for what purpose variables are used. >  > K > When very descriptive variable names are used, this is less of a problem. H  > Further, declaring an obscure name for a variable is no help to laterH > programmers.  This is a red herring.  The declaration of a variable is9  > of no help in determining what a variable is used for.   H All programmers have their own way of writing very descriptive variable I names.  Unfortunately what is very descriptive to one programmer may not  E be it to an other.  Thus the variables and their use should still be  H documented.  The declaration is an appropiate place for a comment doing  that.   F And if all variables are declared then you know that you can find the F declaration.  You will not search for a variable's declartion that is E not there or worse:  Search for a declaration that is there, but you  7 fail to find it and think the variable is not declared.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:27:56 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings, Message-ID: <43ECDB23.933C13D3@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:I > If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed / > to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds.  > E > You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a  > decent language.    E The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to  pass to the called routine.   H you could have an array allocated for 10 items, and use only the first 3F and want to only pass 3 to the called routine. The compiler, even withG any run-time compiler generated code, has no way to know this so cannot 4 possibly include array bounds in the argument stack.  G Furthermore, consider an arreay declared to have 10 elements, which you A pass to some external surboutine which populates the array with X G elements. You then pass that array to another routine. The compiler had K no way to tell called subroutines how many elements are used in that array.   E Besides, when you look at VMS system services that expect item lists, G they just want an address to an item list, they don't want some address  to some array descriptor.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:29:24 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>F Subject: OT: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability? Message-ID: <Eb3Hf.276753$vl2.162075@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   @ Gartner has finally woken up its clients to the ever increasing C scalability of X86-64. Would be interesting to read the full thing.  ===   4 http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=136040 Gartner  	 < IBM xSeries 460: A Scalable x64 Server for Windows and Linux 12 January 2006   	 Ian Brown   A IBM's high-end Windows and Linux server will need more than just  I impressive benchmarks to convince customers it's worth the money. But it  A could signal the start of a new challenge to proprietary Unix in  % midrange and high-end server markets.    Full article $195 , 19 pages.  ===   F Anyone fancy paying $195 and posting a "fair-use" summary...? Thought  not :-(   G Note this is Gartner describing the architecture as "high-end". Not me  
 this time.     --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 00:58:42 -06002 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> Subject: Re: PDPs in the news!? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-jqwdlbB5wdbB@dave2_os2.home.ours>   F On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:51:59 UTC, "Brice Buchanan" <BriceBu@gmail.com>  wrote:   > Oooh... Fun! > B > The first computer I ever worked on was a PDP-8/L that was ownedI > (leased?) by my high school. I believe I was in 7th grade when by buddy B > first dragged me up there after school one day, so we're talkingD > 1969-'70. The only mass storage media available was paper tape, ofG > course, but our box did have an optical tape reader (very high-tech). E > The high-level language offered was FOCAL, a very small BASIC-style  > language.  > C > There was also a TTY in the computer room that was connected to a G > time-sharing system at the University of Bridgeport (CT) that offered C > BASIC. I have no idea what sort of hardware was on the other end.  > D > Unfortunately, although FOCAL on that PDP-8 was my introduction toF > programming, and we did have a ton of fun with it, once I hit H.S. IB > was more interested in music, sports, schoolwork, and girls (notH > necessarily in that order) that I was in becoming a computer jock, andE > never even learned how to boot up the wee thing -- but nonetheless, F > Michael Moroney, I do remember the look of those yellow-orange-brown > switches pretty well!  > F > I haven't worked on a PDP since those days, but I did see a PDP-8 inI > the window of a small, storefront "Computer Museum" in West Newton, MA, H > not far from where I living at the time. I was surprised, and thrilledF > ("Wow, they haven't all been convered into planters after all") That( > was probably about 12 or 15 years ago! > D > The oldest box I work on these days is a VAX 4000-500. *yawn*  :-) >   D pdp-8,  pdp-11, Tiny Pascal and FOCAL - this is turning into a real F nostalgia day ;-) We have an 11/60 languishing. It no longer boots and@ I'm sure that it will be scrapped no later than september. Good  machines that taught me a lot.   --   Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:39:17 -0500 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: PDPs in the news!I Message-ID: <8660a3a10602100539q18a09dffo9356697b4172a216@mail.gmail.com>   C On 2/8/06, Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote: ? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > L > >In article <890539d90602080243j27520c65ga1adae2cb4ea161@mail.gmail.com>,=/  Carl Friedberg <frida.fried@gmail.com> writes: . > >> On 6 Feb 2006 08:03:59 -0600, Bob Koehler& > >>>    seen a Purple Data Processor. > >>>  > >>> < > >> Bob, Please, the PDP1,5,6,7,10s  were NOT purple.. Carl > E > >  Niether is the 12 down at the Smithsonian (or is that a 15?), or $ > >  the Micro PDP-8 I used to have. > G > If I remember correctly, PDPs of the era that used that large plastic H > console switches had a different color scheme for each processor line.J > PDP-11s were purple and magenta, PDP-8s were yellowish and orange-brown,I > one of the others was medium and light greenish.  I think being hideous 3 > was a design requirement for each color pair. :-)  >   A Perhaps the design engineers were pre-screened for colorblindness  (inclusively, that is.)      WWWebb% (What?  No avocado and burnt orange?)    --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:51:56 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> . Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty= Message-ID: <43ec8c66$0$67261$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Christoph Gartmann wrote: M > I thought that I did explain this. The "default" is the same for both types O > of customers. For consumers the default is the minimum whereas with corporate C > purchasing other (and worse) conditions may be freely negotiated.   G Not so in Denmark and we have implemented that EU law a long time ago.  I In Denmark you have a much shorter period of time to complain if you are   a corporate buyer.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:24:24 +0000 (UTC) < From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann). Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty) Message-ID: <dsi468$51r$1@news.BelWue.DE>   k In article <43ec8c66$0$67261$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >Christoph Gartmann wrote:N >> I thought that I did explain this. The "default" is the same for both typesP >> of customers. For consumers the default is the minimum whereas with corporateD >> purchasing other (and worse) conditions may be freely negotiated. > H >Not so in Denmark and we have implemented that EU law a long time ago. J >In Denmark you have a much shorter period of time to complain if you are  >a corporate buyer.   / Interesting. May I ask how short the period is?    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:25:04 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> . Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty= Message-ID: <43eca239$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Christoph Gartmann wrote: m > In article <43ec8c66$0$67261$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >  >>Christoph Gartmann wrote:  >>N >>>I thought that I did explain this. The "default" is the same for both typesP >>>of customers. For consumers the default is the minimum whereas with corporateD >>>purchasing other (and worse) conditions may be freely negotiated. >>I >>Not so in Denmark and we have implemented that EU law a long time ago.  K >>In Denmark you have a much shorter period of time to complain if you are   >>a corporate buyer. >  > 1 > Interesting. May I ask how short the period is?  > 
 > Regards, >    Christoph Gartmann  > G I think it is a year, but normally it would be decided by the terms of  0 the contract, and could be without any warranty.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:39:08 +0000 (UTC) < From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann). Subject: Re: Question about Greece/EU Warranty) Message-ID: <dsic2s$l0v$1@news.BelWue.DE>   k In article <43eca239$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >Christoph Gartmann wrote:n >> In article <43ec8c66$0$67261$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >>   >>>Christoph Gartmann wrote: >>> O >>>>I thought that I did explain this. The "default" is the same for both types Q >>>>of customers. For consumers the default is the minimum whereas with corporate E >>>>purchasing other (and worse) conditions may be freely negotiated.  >>> J >>>Not so in Denmark and we have implemented that EU law a long time ago. L >>>In Denmark you have a much shorter period of time to complain if you are  >>>a corporate buyer.  >>   >>  2 >> Interesting. May I ask how short the period is? >>  H >I think it is a year, but normally it would be decided by the terms of 1 >the contract, and could be without any warranty.   I So quite similar to Germany. It is six months and then 18 months with the I special condition that the buyer has to prove that the defect was already K present from the beginning. Could it be that you have the latter in Denmark ) as well but that it is not so well known?    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 06:59:09 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com + Subject: Security experts say no secure OS! C Message-ID: <1139583549.884269.258600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F these guys obviously don't know about OpenVMS, or in IBMs case, do not want to E acknowledge it ... put o boot on VMS, sure, but where decides what it  can do ... what 
 idiots ...  u http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=L1WPBLPNLDMS2QSNDBCSKHSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=179103249    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:59:26 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>/ Subject: Re: Security experts say no secure OS! = Message-ID: <4p-dnSTMfPvCJXHeRVn-uA@metrocastcablevision.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote:   ...      what > idiots ...  D Hearing you presume to call someone *else* an idiot just gave me my " first good laugh of the day, boob.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:22:35 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR9 Message-ID: <lpmdnQZLcbqIonHenZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>David J Dachtera wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>  >>>  >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>> >>>> >>>>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>H >>>>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than@ >>>>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). >>>>>>>  >>>>>>0 >>>>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. >>>>>  >>>>> L >>>>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsJ >>>>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. >>>>>  >>>>L >>>>I know what you meant.  My post was a not subtle way of saying "go pound> >>>>salt".  I really don't understand these types of requests. >>>  >>> G >>>You're obviously not effected by ISV abandonment that locks you into  >>>V5.5-2 or such. >>B >>While that is an issue for some, there is no linkage to what VMS; >>development can/should do with old versions of utilities.  >> >>
 >>>>It's hard K >>>>enough keeping the current version of any software working.  To ask for L >>>>a feature to be placed in an older version assumes that it can easily be >>>>plugged in.  >>>  >>> J >>>Well, no it doesn't. Speaking for myself, at least, I realize that codeI >>>- especially code as old as VMS BACKUP, even the current incarnation - @ >>>is likely not sufficiently modular as to allow for extension,H >>>enhancement, etc. without a fair amount of work. I just don't dismissJ >>>the possibility out-of-hand that it may be possible, and that those whoA >>>lag behind through no fault if their own would appreciate some G >>>enhancements to their otherwise burdensome environment (say "DILOG", # >>>"CMD", "CIQBA", "Emulex", etc.).  >>>  >>>  >>> > >>>>This assumption too many times will be invalid.  To expectL >>>>an in-depth analysis of every prior version of any utility is asking way
 >>>>too much.  >>>  >>> H >>>A quick look-see would probably be sufficient to say whether it looksJ >>>possible or whether the "looker" shuddered at the thought of attempting >>>to tackle the older code. >>E >>No, a quick look-see is NOT sufficient.  I cannot count the times I G >>broke something because of a quick look-see.  Many times when someone F >>thought that their mod should be simple.  Guess who is to blame when >>something is broke?  >  > J > "Looks possible" is hardly casting anything in stone, or commiting one's! > self to an irreversible course.  >  > C >>>Along the same line as "innocent until proven guilty", how 'bout % >>>"possible until proven otherwise"?  >>>  >>G >>No, it's more like not possible until proven otherwise.  That proving J >>otherwise would include a through analysis of the existing app, what the: >>mod would do to existing capabilities, and a significantF >>re-certification of the application, including all capabilities, not" >>just the newly added capability. >  > F > Seems like a lot of work to go through for a simple "I told you so". > H > How much of your flying did you approach with the attitude "This crateJ > will never fly!" or "No way in hell!"? How many safely concluded flightsI > do you think you could you have conducted while holding such a mindset?   D If I think the crate will never fly, it will take a large number of D really large guys to first catch me, and then stuff me in the crate.  D Safe flights are conducted when you check everything out and insure ' yourself that an aircraft is airworthy.   H Reads to me like you're shooting your own position in the foor.  Do you + advocate reckless modification of software?   I >>I just did a quicky fix on Monday, and immediately received teeth marks I >>on my ass.  Maybe I'll never learn, but I cannot condemn those who seem  >>to have learned. >  > < > "Judicious" is a healthy word to have in one's vocabulary. >      --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:24:10 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR9 Message-ID: <lpmdnQFLcbruonHenZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>David J Dachtera wrote:  >> >>>John Reagan wrote:  >>>  >>>  >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>> >>>> >>>>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>H >>>>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further than@ >>>>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]). >>>>>>>  >>>>>>0 >>>>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. >>>>>  >>>>> L >>>>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsJ >>>>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. >>>>>  >>>>I >>>>We have some rather strict guidelines about backporting.  In general, K >>>>customers who have stayed with older versions of OpenVMS, do so because  >>>>they are stable. >>>  >>> K >>>Some of them, yes. Others simply have no choice. The ISV has vanished or H >>>moved on to the The Dark Side, VESTing is not possible and/or lack ofK >>>source code are likely other reasons for lagging behind. Hardly anyone's  >>>"fault".  >>>  >>>  >>> H >>>>Backporting new features, while a worthy goal, increases the risk ofC >>>>instability (Guy can't be perfect all of the time).  BACKUP, in I >>>>particular, demands even more paranoia since it is complex, and it is % >>>>hard to test in all combinations.  >>>>H >>>>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money@ >>>>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. >>>  >>> K >>>Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so ; >>>little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS.  >>>  >> >>Ok, I see how it works.  >> >>Someone else shafts you. >>! >>VMS engineering gets the blame.  >> >>Is that right? >  > . > Huh? Non-capisco - where did THAT come from? >   D Some application shafts you, no longer supports VMS, you cannot get  sources, whatever.   VMS engineering gets the blame.    Is that right?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:27:55 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> * Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR/ Message-ID: <Peydnd4-dorL3XHeRVn-ug@libcom.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > John Reagan wrote: >  >>David J Dachtera wrote:  >> >>>John Reagan wrote:  >>> H >>>>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of money@ >>>>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. >>>  >>> K >>>Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so ; >>>little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS.  >>>  >>? >>I'll assume you aren't directing that at me as I try to be as D >>customer-friendly as possible (I was a customer in a former life). >  > G > Not directed at you personally, just reacting the mention of "lots of H > money". See related posts in other threads about the cost of acquiringC > customers versus the cost of retaining them, or generating repeat  > business.  >  > J >>This is like asking Ford Motor Company, "Dear Ford, I have a 1973 pickupC >>truck.  Drives fine.  I can still get lots of after market parts. I >>However, I see that you just shipped a new and improved anti-lock brake E >>system that will help me out in certain situations.  Can you please B >>provide this new brake system for my 1973 truck free of charge?" >>A >>Now, I understand it isn't a fair comparision, but it is close.  >  > : > To be fair, the after market fills that gap rather well. >  > H >>It isn't just building BACKUP for those older OpenVMS releases, but inI >>many cases, it is literally reimplementing the change (granted, in some J >>cases, it would just be a cut-n-paste operation, but even those go wrong
 >>sometimes).  >  > I > Having been an application programmer in a past life, I quickly learned C > to make such code easily upgradeable so that long-sought features E > arriving in current versions could be easily back-ported to earlier F > versions where the needed level of modularity allowed. The customers@ > were only internal, but they were, none the less, grateful andF > appreciative, and paid us back by making sure our management knew we > were looking out for them. >  > F >>Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how, >>many people would install it and trust it? >  > < > How many third-party companies survive doing exactly that? >   E Isn't that where this started?  A third party gave you a capability.  I But you didn't want that.  You wanted VMS engineering to backport to old  	 versions.   > Which is it?  You'll use third party stuff, or you demand VMS 9 engineering do something that will only cause them grief.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:54:56 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR2 Message-ID: <kH2Hf.2979$Nf2.1253@news.cpqcorp.net>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > John Reagan wrote:F >>Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how, >>many people would install it and trust it? >  > < > How many third-party companies survive doing exactly that? >   A Even JC Whitney has limits.  (Personally, while I'm a JC Whitney  3 customer, I'm always amazed they stay in business.)    --   John   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 10:43:34 +0100C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) " Subject: Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs2 Message-ID: <43ec6046$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de>  ; In article <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera # <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: I >Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID of F >a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening and? >V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were 2 >"visible", but the files were at least available. >  >FFO >   ? There is no UDF-FS support in OpenVMS. Tru64 has is and mkisofs 9 can produce a UDF-FS under OpenVMS. This is important for % Video-DVDs, that use this filesystem.    Eberhard   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:03:53 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG" Subject: Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs0 Message-ID: <00A51198.9DC72B7B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <C9fo01pUHKV7@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >  > ` >In article <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > K >> Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID of H >> a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening andA >> V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were 4 >> "visible", but the files were at least available. > H >ISO 9660 requires that files be accessible by standard names as well asG >by other naming methods.  Of course Joliet is not exactly a compatible G >extension as authorized by ISO 9660, but it does allow compliance with  >that one point.  D I've tried mounting some of these but if the short name has a ~, VMS can't find it on the CD.   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2006 09:17:18 GMT/ From: Thierry Dussuet <thierry@dussuet.lugs.ch> 3 Subject: Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ? 0 Message-ID: <slrnduomgv.29h.thierry@MARS.Family>  = On 2006-02-10, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: # >> >> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/  >> >> ' >> >> There are two Windows Media Files  > 8 > "Fichier Audio MPEG" is :  MPEG audio File in  French. >  > Is that server in France ?  K The description of the files in an FTP directory listing is created by your M browser, which most of the time has a list with a matching description to the O most common file extensions.  So if you take another browser, you will probably  have another description.    Thierry    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:52:17 -0500 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>3 Subject: Re: What is this about - VMS advertising ? , Message-ID: <43ec9a91$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  5 "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net> wrote in message 9 news:zz0Hf.291167$D47.281388@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...  >  > H > The last VMS promo video I recall features Mark Gorham and a very loudH > tie celebrating VMS on Itanium. As long as Mark was in charge of VMS IJ > believe he planned to expand the VMS base. He once told me (in public at? > a DECUS/HPUG) he would not remain in charge of VMS if the job C > description changed  to "put it to sleep". I reminded him of this E > statement when he stepped down last year. Although I got a reply to D > other points in my email, my question reminding him of this, as toH > whether his stepping aside could indicate VMS's future had changed was > left unanswered. > A > Anyone know what Mark is doing these days? Is he still with HP?  >   I After taking a long vacation with a friend from college (scuba diving and H fishing in exotic places around the world), Mark decided to leave HP andH join his friend in a new business completely unrelated to computers.  HeH told me it had nothing to do with HP, or VMS - but rather an opportunityE that he decided that it was the right time in life for him to pursue.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.082 ************************