0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 11 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 83      Contents:  ANN: GBLSEC_SDA freeware updated Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: Another sad day for VMS... Re: DS10L Docs5 Re: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801 5 Re: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801 & I64 Support: Stronger than is thought?* Re: I64 Support: Stronger than is thought? Re: LDAP authenication% Re: M e z e i finds love in a Keyhole  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings A Re: OT: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability & Re: PCSI questions and answers---again& Re: Security experts say no secure OS!& Re: Security experts say no secure OS!& Re: Security experts say no secure OS!& Re: Security experts say no secure OS!! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR ! Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR  Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs  Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs  Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:00:11 -0600 - From: Hunter Goatley <goathunter@goatley.com> ) Subject: ANN: GBLSEC_SDA freeware updated ( Message-ID: <43ED533B.10702@goatley.com>  B The following package has been updated in my VMS freeware archive:       gblsec_sda.zip  E     Description: SDA extension to display info about a global section =                    including which processes are mapped to it      Version: V1.1 1     Author: Ian Miller <miller@encompasserve.org>      Architecture: AXP,IA64     Size: 181 blocks     Language: C .     URL: http://www.encompasserve.org/~miller/     Released: 8-FEB-2006  B This version handles dynamic regions and includes a few bug fixes. Thanks, Ian!   http://www.process.com/openvms/   , ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/1 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/   ( ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/- http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/    And on the other mirrors.      --     Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:26:29 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... : Message-ID: <PoudnQD8FqFMvHDenZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@bresnan.com>   William Webb wrote:   @ > On 2/9/06, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >  >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >>>Alan Greig wrote: >>> L >>>>Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person) >>>>in VMS management" than the last one?  >>> J >>>If VMS' auto-pilot keeps it on the course pre-set by HP, VMS management >>>don't need to do much.  >>> G >>>On the other hand, maybe they are fighting a huge internal corporate K >>>fight to save VMS and aren't getting any recognition for this behind the  >>>scenes work.  >>J >>I'd like to think that "they" are working stealthily, silently, and thatG >>at some point in their plan they'll reach critical mass and the whole G >>thing will burst into the light in a manner that is grand, unexpected , >>and impossible for the industry to ignore. >>$ >>How's *THAT* for a grand illusion? >> >>-- >>David J Dachtera >>dba DJE Systems  >>http://www.djesys.com/ >>( >>Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page# >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/  >>* >>Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  >>$ >>Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >>+ >>Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ >> >  >  > Counterproof:  > 8 > There are new ISVs porting applications to VMS on I64. > 8 > That's one sign.  There are others, to those who look. > @ > And I concur, we shouldn't have to dig for this kind of stuff.  C Agreed!  Whilst in other newsgroups, when you mention OpenVMS, the  G general consensus is that it isn't being used any more, or no one uses   it anymore.    --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:51:08 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Another sad day for VMS... + Message-ID: <43ED5F2C.90F2AF03@comcast.net>    GreyCloud wrote: >  > William Webb wrote:  > B > > On 2/9/06, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: > >  > >>JF Mezei wrote:  > >> > >>>Alan Greig wrote: > >>> N > >>>>Maybe it's just me but do we hear a lot less from the current "#1 person+ > >>>>in VMS management" than the last one?  > >>> L > >>>If VMS' auto-pilot keeps it on the course pre-set by HP, VMS management > >>>don't need to do much.  > >>> I > >>>On the other hand, maybe they are fighting a huge internal corporate M > >>>fight to save VMS and aren't getting any recognition for this behind the  > >>>scenes work.  > >>L > >>I'd like to think that "they" are working stealthily, silently, and thatI > >>at some point in their plan they'll reach critical mass and the whole I > >>thing will burst into the light in a manner that is grand, unexpected . > >>and impossible for the industry to ignore. > >>& > >>How's *THAT* for a grand illusion? > >> > >>-- > >>David J Dachtera > >>dba DJE Systems  > >>http://www.djesys.com/ > >>* > >>Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page% > >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/  > >>, > >>Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:# > >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > >>& > >>Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:# > >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  > >>- > >>Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: & > >>http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > >> > >  > >  > > Counterproof:  > > : > > There are new ISVs porting applications to VMS on I64. > > : > > That's one sign.  There are others, to those who look. > > B > > And I concur, we shouldn't have to dig for this kind of stuff. > D > Agreed!  Whilst in other newsgroups, when you mention OpenVMS, theH > general consensus is that it isn't being used any more, or no one uses
 > it anymore.   9 ...which is why I don't change my .sig for posting to the D alt.solaris.x86 or comp.unix.solaris groups (as seldom as I do that, mostly to ask questions).    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 03:25:41 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com> Subject: Re: DS10L Docs * Message-ID: <VOcHf.3956$_D1.3861@trnddc03>   johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > Tom Linden wrote:  > 8 >>On 9 Feb 2006 05:17:34 -0800, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com# >><johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:  >> >>, >>>ralf.gaertner AT t-systems DOT com wrote: >>>  >>>>Tom Linden schrieb:  >>>> >>>>D >>>>>Just bought one, anyone have the docs, like the service manual? >>>>>Tom >>>>D >>>>I have never seen a service manual. What I have is (PDF format): >>>> >>>>DS10L Quick Spec.  >>>> >>>>DS10 Quick Setup >>>>DS10 Quick Spec. >>>>DS10 Console Reference >>>>DS10 Memory Option >>>>H >>>>The console reference should be identical. Send me a mail if you are >>>>interested.  >>>> >>>>Ralf >>> G >>>All of these are still available at HP.  Go to Alphaservers->Retired + >>>Servers->DS10L->Documentation.  Or click F >>>http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/ds10l/ds10l_tech.html >>> ? >>>That's all I have for mine also.  Funny how inconsistant the F >>>documentation is once Compaq took over.  Information for the XP1000I >>>workstation is almost non-existant online (and apparently it was never F >>>in print either) and the DS10L's and the DS20(E) are pretty scimpy. >>>  >>>John H. Reinhardt >>>  >>K >>Well I have the complete documentation for the Miata and the XP1000 and I  >>had L >>put them online, but someone from HP asked me to remove the Service Guide, >>which  >>I did. >  > I > Figures.  That's pretty lame of them.  The system is retired and out of H > production.  I suppose it's possible they still sell the documentation0 > somewhere on their site but I haven't seen it. > . Or maybe they still sell service for them? :-)   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 18:14:34 -0800 From: erosbresolin@equannox.com > Subject: Re: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801C Message-ID: <1139624073.976471.167580@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi again  @ Really need to get this resolved by Monday so here are some more details.  F We have a Cisco 2801 Router that currently routes a number of internalD networks out via one interface onto an SDSL router and then onto theF internet. It is configured to run NAT and there are a number of StaticF IP mappings between given external addresses (associated with the ADSL7 accounts) to specific servers on the internal networks.   G We would like to set up a new ADSL line to act as a backup in the event E of the SDSL failing. However any new ADSL account will obviously come ( with a new set of external IP addresses.  G Is there anyway to configure the CISCO router to allow for some form of B automatic failover that can also handle the new IP address without$ breaking the NAT translation tables?  5 Looking forward to hearing any suggestions and ideas.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 18:37:26 -0800 From: erosbresolin@equannox.com > Subject: Re: Failover from SDSL to ADSL on a single Cisco 2801B Message-ID: <1139625446.864295.36290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  8 Thanks for your response Phillip. Very much appreciated.  E Could you please provide me with a bit more detail? Are the other two D routers you refer to the 2 different ISPs, i.e. the SDSL & the ADSL?E Have not come across VMS before in work or while doing my CCNA. Would F be great if you could show me an example of a config that demonstratesB how to set up your suggestion of backwards NAT between the other 2( routers. Hope it's not too much trouble.  B Please bear in mind that we only have access to the one Cisco 2801 router.    Many thanks   	 Erosional    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:20:54 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>/ Subject: I64 Support: Stronger than is thought? + Message-ID: <43ED6625.12E4C7AB@comcast.net>   F Happened upon this while reading an item from my daily InfoWorld Scoop e-mail:   B http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/02/06/75008_06OPopenent_1.html   Interesting quote:  F "...when you're shopping for an Itanium server, you can take your pickG of hardware from Bull, Fujitsu, Fujitsu-Siemens, Hitachi, HP, NEC, SGI, F and Unisys. And although all eight companies are building systems withC chips made by Intel, that doesn't mean Intel calls the shots at the  ISA."   D While not being received as well as would comfort many of us (myselfE included), these companies are putting I64 kit out into the field and , have made a substantial investment to do so.  F Note that I purposely avoided using the "Itanic" epithet in this post,H until now. See a related thread that mentions IBM's "xSeries 460" x86-64H scalable server product. Apparently, IBM sees its fortunes as being tied9 to that line of CPUs rather than I64 at the present time.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:14:14 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: I64 Support: Stronger than is thought? G Message-ID: <ZbKdnQXWFooqHXDenZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>   H Well, possibly stronger than *you* thought, if you hadn't been aware of 0 the companies nominally offering Itanic systems.   David J Dachtera wrote:    ...   F > While not being received as well as would comfort many of us (myselfG > included), these companies are putting I64 kit out into the field and . > have made a substantial investment to do so.  I And have lived to regret it.  However, just as with HP and Intel, having  F made that investment it's kind of difficult just to walk away from it H and wipe the egg off your face, as long as there's the *slightest* hope @ that it may eventually pay off, at least at the margin (even if . recouping the original funding never happens).  G The criterion to watch remains total sales for the platforms that have  E chosen to take staterooms on (or been supplanted by) the Itanic.  If  I market share for those platforms increases, then there's at least *some*  @ claim that Itanic may be the cause of this and that it reflects C increasing industry acceptance.  If the market share remains flat,  G Itanic is at best a neutral influence; if market share decreases, then  , Itanic was quite possibly the kiss of death.  H Market share for HP-UX is effectively flat:  whatever increase in sales E Itanic is seeing has been matched by decreasing PA-RISC sales; since  ? Itanic was *always* meant to be the successor to PA-RISC, this  B transition is about the best case possible, and even that doesn't D reflect well on Itanic's intrinsic appeal.  Market share for VMS is F down, thanks to the Itanic transition/forced march.  Market share for G Tru64 is dead, again thanks to Itanic (in that case, its having killed  D the Tru64 platform completely; the fact that HP-UX isn't picking up I enough Tru64 customers to show any growth offers additional insight into  " Itanic's appeal, or lack thereof).  I What about the other 7 companies?  Who cares?  HP sells about 2/3 of all  C Itanics sold, leaving those other 7 companies to squabble over the  I remaining 35% (i.e., about 5% apiece, on average, of a total that itself  I is monumentally unimpressive).  Some, like SGI (as long as it survives),  F have a bit more than that average (SGI holding something of a captive G market with its special-purpose infrastructure, a market which doesn't  G care that much what processor sits inside that infrastructure); others  G have bupkus, but can't publicly throw in the towel because they'd lose  C even more face than they already have (and perhaps some high-level   executives as a result).  F Of course, unlike HP and SGI most of the other companies didn't stake B their complete futures on Itanic.  Last year, for example, Unisys F discovered renewed interest in its high-end Xeon platforms (some even < beat IBM's excellent X3 Xeon chipset - as well as Itanics - G core-for-core).  Fujitsu has continued to develop its high-end SPARC64  E platforms, which beat Itanic (both core-for-core and in total system  E size) in several important commercial benchmarks.  NEC partners with  H Stratus to sell fault-tolerant high-end Xeon systems, and recently that C partnership became a lot closer, with NEC taking over all hardware  D development and Stratus concentrating on the software end.  I'm not F familiar enough with the others to provide details, but I don't think 2 they burned their bridges either nearly as HP did.  D So I find the *decrease* in support for Itanic (Sun bailed out very F early, IBM stuck around until the handwriting on the wall was clearer I but then didn't hesitate to leave, and others - even including HP - have  E showed increasing interest in x86-64 for high-end use recently) more  I significant than the fact that the rest of those corporations who bought  F into Itanic early-on have not yet completely given up on it.  Perhaps G you weren't aware that they've been on board all along, and that's the   reason you were impressed.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:51:52 -0500 ) From: "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com>  Subject: Re: LDAP authenication , Message-ID: <43ed0af8$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  C > Can I install e-directory services and replicate from the Red Hat  > server to e-directory?  B You could, but I'm not sure what advantage that would provide. TheH authentication that takes place with the current LDAP ACME is based on aH field in the VMS-specific schema that contains the VMS Purdy hash of theK user's password. The only software component that knows about this field is J the LDAP ACME agent. No other system in your network will utilize it which. defeats the goal of centralize authentication.  I What you really want are the enhancements to the LDAP ACME which will use K standard LDAP authentication so all systems, including VMS, use the central - authentication provided by your LDAP servers.   . > Any time frame for the upgrades to ldap acme  J The general expectation for this capability is later this year. We hope toL have a field test version available sometime during the upcoming OpenVMS 8.3 field test.   
 Richard Barry  OpenVMS System Software Group  Hewlett-Packard Company 
 Nashua, NH  * <schortingh_j@mercer.edu> wrote in message= news:1139596373.673882.175870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > Rick,  >  > Two followup questions:  > C > Can I install e-directory services and replicate from the Red Hat  > server to e-directory? > / > Any time frame for the upgrades to ldap acme.  > 	 > Thanks.  >  > Rick Barry wrote:  > > The short answer is no.  > > E > > The present LDAP ACME EAK is VMS-specific and requires Enterprise 	 Directory K > > which supports the VMS-specific schema. This is useful for centralizing ? > > authentication for large groups of VMS systems or clusters.  > > L > > There is work going on to enhance the LDAP ACME to support standard LDAPC > > authentication as provided by LDAP-compliant directory servers.  > >  > > Richard Barry ! > > OpenVMS System Software Group  > > Hewlett-Packard Company  > > Nashua, NH > > . > > <schortingh_j@mercer.edu> wrote in message@ > > news:1139432430.684442.76780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...J > > > We are reviewing the possibility of having our vms systems / windowsF > > > applications authenicate aganist  the ldap included with red hatJ > > > enterprise.  Can the ldap (eak) be used with acme to allow this type of > > > authenication. > > > 
 > > > Thanks.  > > >  > > > Jim Schortinghouse > > > VMS Systems Manager  > > > Mercer University  > > > 478.301.2846 > > > schortingh_j@Mercer.edu  > > >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Feb 2006 21:27:35 -0000 / From: M e z e i is a PIG <anon@comments.header> . Subject: Re: M e z e i finds love in a Keyhole6 Message-ID: <G4GVQ7AT38757.6858217593@twistycreek.com>  R Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@earthlink.net> wrote:   >  >M e z e i is a PIG wrote: >  >> Gregory Morrow D ><gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >M e z e i is a PIG wrote:  >> >E >> >> JF Mezei sockpupetting as "nobody <nobody@nobody.org>" trolled:  >> >> M >> >> >If you sit 3 obese women next to each other, should the airline charge G >> >> >for extra seats ?  It might form one big ugly blob of fat with 6  >saggingD >> >> >breasts and 3 heads on a 3 seat section, but they woudln't be$ >> >> >inconveniencing anybody else. >> >> D >> >> But they'd probably be much better company on a flight than an# >> >> insane psycho troll like you.  >> >> ( >> >> And more decent human beings, too. >> >> E >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/5e814528bf75efa9  >> >>  >> > >> >C >> >The way that JF talks about women one has to wonder if he has a  >> >girlfriend...  >>D >> Aside from the inflatable one he keeps under his bed?  Nah....... >>K >> >Did he get dumped on by Connie Wong or Ellen or Sheryl Mexic I wonder -  >is D >> >that why he apparently harbours so much bitterness to the fairer
 >sex...??? >>L >> Maybe the stress of having to sleep with his fat, hairy, sweaty Hungarian >mother 2 >> and satisfy her sexual needs is getting to him. >>J >> He needs to be with a real woman for once so he can see what it's like.J >> Maybe a three-day weekend in the Poconos with Ellen, Sheryl, and Connie >> might do the trick. >  > K >Except that Connie wields a MEAN cleaver and he might be in some danger of . >her going "chop - chop" to his "salami"...!!! > L >Ellen would just spend time blowing cig smoke into his face and does anyoneF >really think that Sheryl has *ever* been capable of having an orgasm?  B Only when Rolando Zamora works his magic with his fingers..... <g>  . >I vote we fix him up with Mary Ann Keyhole...  : She's a whooooole lotta woman ..... can Mezei handle it???   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:27:25 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings2 Message-ID: <xO5Hf.2994$Vn2.2440@news.cpqcorp.net>   Dave Froble wrote:  F > Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will K > parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that are  J > referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine whether J > it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate sections of  > code.  >   D If you use /ANALYSIS_DATA and SCA, you can easily find all sorts of  things like this.      --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:04:55 -0500 # From: sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings0 Message-ID: <1139598277.807007@nntp.acecape.com>   Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >> Karsten Nyblad wrote: >> >>> Dave Froble wrote: >>> H >>>> I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my J >>>> career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on I >>>> stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem  H >>>> for me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many  >>>> instances.  >>>>E >>>> When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to   >>>> declare such. >>>  >>>  >>> J >>> Even a programmer with a poor typewriting does not use that much time H >>> typing the code his writes.  The programmer uses much more time for D >>> reading, debugging, and understanding the code.  Thus languages F >>> should make code readable, easy to understand, and as many errors I >>> should be caught before debugging.  Say your finger slips, such that  F >>> you get a new implicitly declare variable.  It will take you much H >>> longer time finding that bug with a debugger than if it is reported  >>> by the compiler.   >> >>G >> Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will  H >> parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that G >> are referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine  G >> whether it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate   >> sections of code. > H > Well, then you had better not make the same typo twice.  Being bad at H > spelling I could easily make the same spelling error twice.  I have a D > hunch that writing and using that utility has taken you a sizable > > fraction of the time you have save not writing declarations. > H >>> Further, you will have to use more time for proofreading your code, 1 >>> because you have to look for faulty typings.   >> >>4 >> Proof reading your code is a bad thing ?????????? > E > Certainly not, but proofreading to find errors that could be found  G > automatically is a waste of resources.  And you can look for only so  + > many different types of errors at a time.   > I think the above statement represents the reason I originally= submitted my post, which i had hoped would put an end to this = ongoing, never ending discussion. Errors aren't just misspelt = names. Compilers can let you know singly used names, improper @ nesting, using variable that have not been initialized. So what.  C Proofreading your code is never a waste of resources. Having others ? review your code is not a waste of resources. It is the way you A verify that the code works (or has a chance of working). Too many A programmers today write the code and then get it working by trial 
 and error.  A We have IDE's that we use to throw code together without any real A program design methodology. With an IDE we might not even see the > code behind any graphics or see how the code modules interact.? We then expect it to work, and when it works once, we expect it  to work every time.   I >>> At last it will not be as easy to maintain, because later programmers J >> will have more problems finding out how and for what purpose variables  >> are used. >> >>L >> When very descriptive variable names are used, this is less of a problem.J >  > Further, declaring an obscure name for a variable is no help to laterI >> programmers.  This is a red herring.  The declaration of a variable is ; >  > of no help in determining what a variable is used for.  > J > All programmers have their own way of writing very descriptive variable K > names.  Unfortunately what is very descriptive to one programmer may not  G > be it to an other.  Thus the variables and their use should still be  J > documented.  The declaration is an appropiate place for a comment doing  > that.  > H > And if all variables are declared then you know that you can find the H > declaration.  You will not search for a variable's declartion that is G > not there or worse:  Search for a declaration that is there, but you  9 > fail to find it and think the variable is not declared.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 13:13:48 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <vTqWT8XLWYpW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43ECDB23.933C13D3@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote:J >> If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed0 >> to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds. >>  F >> You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a >> decent language.  >  > G > The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to  > pass to the called routine.  > J > you could have an array allocated for 10 items, and use only the first 3H > and want to only pass 3 to the called routine. The compiler, even withI > any run-time compiler generated code, has no way to know this so cannot 6 > possibly include array bounds in the argument stack.  6 Certainly it does (in Ada) if you specify the call as:  ) 	Processing_Routine ( Arg_Array [1..3] );   H a slice of an array of type T is still an array of type T, only shorter.  G > Besides, when you look at VMS system services that expect item lists, I > they just want an address to an item list, they don't want some address  > to some array descriptor.   B Yes, but VMS system services are focused on lower level languages.? As I posted earlier, for the final call to VMS system services, A one tacks on a null terminator, just as when one has to deal with  libraries written in C.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 13:05:37 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <m9FTjB3GjquF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <43eca195$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:   H > Besides both Ada and Pascal are languages where pointers are used for H > implementing data structures when arrays are not appropriate.  So Ada 0 > and Pascal do not differ from C on that topic.  G No, Ada Access Values differ considerably from C Pointers, in that they H do not allow pointer arithmetic.  One does not add 1 to a pointer to getF the next byte (or is it longword).  In that regard, C is not much more# than a glorified assembly language.   E In Ada if Number_at_Each_Percentage points to an array of 101 natural  numbers,  % 	X := Number_at_Each_Percentage [14];   G gives the number with 14 percent (presuming a properly populated array)   ( 	Number_at_Each_Percentage [14] := 2451;  + might be part of populating that table, and   & 	Number_at_Each_Percentage [14] := -1;  . would be detected as an error at compile time.    # 	Y = Number_at_Each_Percentage + 1;    would not compile.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:53:18 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <43ecef27$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:m > In article <43eca195$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >  > H >>Besides both Ada and Pascal are languages where pointers are used for H >>implementing data structures when arrays are not appropriate.  So Ada 0 >>and Pascal do not differ from C on that topic. >  > I > No, Ada Access Values differ considerably from C Pointers, in that they J > do not allow pointer arithmetic.  One does not add 1 to a pointer to getH > the next byte (or is it longword).  In that regard, C is not much more% > than a glorified assembly language.   H Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  Then the pointer + H 1 will point to the next element in the array.  (Assuming that the type I of the pointer matches the element type of the array.)  But I wonder how  H many people use that feature today.  Well perhaps in C++ were ++ and -- I are used to by the STL library for getting the next and previous element  B in a data structure.  They are, however, overloaded functions and , therefore not really what we are discussing.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:19:10 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <-uWdnQouSYG6nnDeRVn-rw@libcom.com>    Tom Linden wrote: I > On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:15:04 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    > wrote: > H >> Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will  H >> parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that H >> are  referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine H >> whether  it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate  >> sections of  code.  >> > 1 > If you use a _real_ compiler it does it for you  > PLI  >  >   /CROSS_REFERENCE >   >         /NOCROSS_REFERENCE (D) > J >      Specifies whether the compiler is to generate cross  references  inJ >      the  listing  file.   If you specify /CROSS_REFERENCE, the compilerJ >      lists, for each variable referenced  in  the  procedure,  the  line@ >      numbers of the lines on which the variable is referenced. > = >      You must specify /LIST/SHOW=MAP with /CROSS_REFERENCE.  >   H So does VAX Basic.  A utility can check the cross reference, and when a I variable has only one reference, it's time for a look at that section of  H code.  Also, nearby in the cross reference may be another variable with G similar spelling, and that's an indicator that perhaps there is a typo.   B Any of the VMS compilers that I've seen, and the list is far from , complete, will generate the cross reference.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:09:37 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <W7KdnZamtcNvnXDenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > I >> In article <43eca195$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten  ( >> Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >> >>J >>> Besides both Ada and Pascal are languages where pointers are used for J >>> implementing data structures when arrays are not appropriate.  So Ada 2 >>> and Pascal do not differ from C on that topic. >> >> >>J >> No, Ada Access Values differ considerably from C Pointers, in that theyK >> do not allow pointer arithmetic.  One does not add 1 to a pointer to get I >> the next byte (or is it longword).  In that regard, C is not much more & >> than a glorified assembly language. >  > 5 > Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.   F That's an array index, not a pointer as I understand pointers on VMS. F It's just a numeric value.  A pointer, (as I understand pointers), is = the address of a virtural memory address/location.  On VAX a  E non-negative Longword.  On Alpha a non-negative Longword or Quadword.    >  Then the pointer + 0 > 1 will point to the next element in the array.  ) That's just incrementing a numeric value.    >  (Assuming that the type  K > of the pointer matches the element type of the array.)  But I wonder how  J > many people use that feature today.  Well perhaps in C++ were ++ and -- K > are used to by the STL library for getting the next and previous element  D > in a data structure.  They are, however, overloaded functions and . > therefore not really what we are discussing.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:15:12 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <-uWdnQsuSYGmn3DeRVn-rw@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > I >>If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed / >>to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds.  >>E >>You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a  >>decent language. >  >  > G > The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to  > pass to the called routine.   6 You either pass a single element, or the entire array.  # Maybe C allows something different.   J > you could have an array allocated for 10 items, and use only the first 3H > and want to only pass 3 to the called routine. The compiler, even withI > any run-time compiler generated code, has no way to know this so cannot 6 > possibly include array bounds in the argument stack. > I > Furthermore, consider an arreay declared to have 10 elements, which you C > pass to some external surboutine which populates the array with X I > elements. You then pass that array to another routine. The compiler had M > no way to tell called subroutines how many elements are used in that array.   F Read my lips.  There is a structure called an array descriptor.  It's G the array descriptor, passed by ref (address of the array descriptor),  I that is passed to the subprogram.  Not the address of the first, or any,  / element, when the entire array is being passed.   G > Besides, when you look at VMS system services that expect item lists, I > they just want an address to an item list, they don't want some address  > to some array descriptor.   I Wasn't talking about item lists.  Perhaps you were, and yes, an array of  H longwords can be used as an item list, passing the address of the first F element in the array.  But that's an item list, not passing an entire  array to a subprogram.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:23:34 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <aMWdnUTN_8eumXDenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@libcom.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >> Karsten Nyblad wrote: >> >>> Dave Froble wrote: >>> H >>>> I'm in the minority on this issue.  I'm aware of that.  Most of my J >>>> career has been writing new stuff, and most of the maintenance is on I >>>> stuff I wrote.  Not declaring variables hasn't been a large problem  H >>>> for me.  That said, I'll agree that it's safer, and better in many  >>>> instances.  >>>>E >>>> When using local temporary variables, it is nice to not have to   >>>> declare such. >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> J >>> Even a programmer with a poor typewriting does not use that much time H >>> typing the code his writes.  The programmer uses much more time for D >>> reading, debugging, and understanding the code.  Thus languages F >>> should make code readable, easy to understand, and as many errors I >>> should be caught before debugging.  Say your finger slips, such that  F >>> you get a new implicitly declare variable.  It will take you much H >>> longer time finding that bug with a debugger than if it is reported  >>> by the compiler.   >> >> >>G >> Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will  H >> parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that G >> are referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine  G >> whether it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate   >> sections of code. >  > H > Well, then you had better not make the same typo twice.  Being bad at H > spelling I could easily make the same spelling error twice.  I have a D > hunch that writing and using that utility has taken you a sizable > > fraction of the time you have save not writing declarations.  G I have been very successful without declaring variables.  You may have   different experiences.  H >>> Further, you will have to use more time for proofreading your code, 1 >>> because you have to look for faulty typings.   >> >> >>4 >> Proof reading your code is a bad thing ?????????? >  > E > Certainly not, but proofreading to find errors that could be found  G > automatically is a waste of resources.  And you can look for only so  + > many different types of errors at a time.  > I >>> At last it will not be as easy to maintain, because later programmers  >>J >> will have more problems finding out how and for what purpose variables  >> are used. >> >>L >> When very descriptive variable names are used, this is less of a problem. > J >  > Further, declaring an obscure name for a variable is no help to later > I >> programmers.  This is a red herring.  The declaration of a variable is  > ; >  > of no help in determining what a variable is used for.  > J > All programmers have their own way of writing very descriptive variable K > names.  Unfortunately what is very descriptive to one programmer may not  G > be it to an other.  Thus the variables and their use should still be  J > documented.  The declaration is an appropiate place for a comment doing  > that.   H So now I need to declare a variable, and document it's use?  As I said, G I know I have the minority opinion, but I have been successful with it.   I Is there no room for more than one style, or should we all don jackboots   and all march to the same tune?   H > And if all variables are declared then you know that you can find the H > declaration.  You will not search for a variable's declartion that is G > not there or worse:  Search for a declaration that is there, but you  9 > fail to find it and think the variable is not declared.      --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:27:05 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <aMWdnUfN_8eemHDenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@libcom.com>    John Reagan wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: > G >> Well, it can be caught by the compiler.  I have utilities that will  H >> parse the /LIST output of the compiler, and report on variables that G >> are referenced only once.  I can then check out such, and determine  G >> whether it's a typo, or something brought in with some boiler-plate   >> sections of code. >> > F > If you use /ANALYSIS_DATA and SCA, you can easily find all sorts of  > things like this.  >  >    old tcp_msg_timeout  Ready    list$ TCP_MSG_TIMEOUT    10-FEB-2006 16:24  , 1       SUB TCP_MSG_TIMEOUT(    LONG CH% , &-                                  LONG Z2% , & -                                  LONG Z3% , & -                                  LONG Z4% , & +                                  LONG Z5% ) (          CALL SYS$CANCEL( CH% BY VALUE )          SUBEND    Ready    compile/anal$ TCP_MSG_TIMEOUT    10-FEB-2006 16:25  ( %BASIC-E-QUALERR, unknown qualifier ANAL Ready   C Is this something that VAX never had, or something Basic never had?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:50:21 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings= Message-ID: <43ed0a97$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Dave Froble wrote: > Karsten Nyblad wrote: 6 >> Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array. >  > H > That's an array index, not a pointer as I understand pointers on VMS. H > It's just a numeric value.  A pointer, (as I understand pointers), is ? > the address of a virtural memory address/location.  On VAX a  G > non-negative Longword.  On Alpha a non-negative Longword or Quadword.  > E >>  Then the pointer + 1 will point to the next element in the array.  >  > + > That's just incrementing a numeric value.   I Sorry, but pointers in C and C++ do have the semantics I describe.  That  H is:  Let size(A) be the number of bytes used for storing values of type G A.  If you have a pointer pointing to something of type A then size(A)  G will be added to the binary value of the pointer when you add 1 to the   pointer.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 17:27:35 -05003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings. Message-ID: <mddirrm4zoo.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  - Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:    > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  O >> In article <43eca195$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad ! >> <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:   J >>> Besides both Ada and Pascal are languages where pointers are used for J >>> implementing data structures when arrays are not appropriate.  So Ada 2 >>> and Pascal do not differ from C on that topic.  J >> No, Ada Access Values differ considerably from C Pointers, in that theyK >> do not allow pointer arithmetic.  One does not add 1 to a pointer to get I >> the next byte (or is it longword).  In that regard, C is not much more & >> than a glorified assembly language.  J > Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  Then the pointer + J > 1 will point to the next element in the array.  (Assuming that the type K > of the pointer matches the element type of the array.)  But I wonder how  J > many people use that feature today.  Well perhaps in C++ were ++ and -- K > are used to by the STL library for getting the next and previous element  D > in a data structure.  They are, however, overloaded functions and . > therefore not really what we are discussing.  N Look carefully at what Larry Kilgallen wrote, rather than what you expected toL see.  You're lecturing someone who clearly already knows what you're saying.  K Now, in Ada and Pascal, pointers do *not* have this behaviour, that is, the @ arithmetic operators are not overloaded with pointer arithmetic.   --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 17:30:23 -05003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings. Message-ID: <mddfymq4zk0.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:    > Karsten Nyblad wrote:   6 >> Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array. > H > That's an array index, not a pointer as I understand pointers on VMS.   H > It's just a numeric value.  A pointer, (as I understand pointers), is ? > the address of a virtural memory address/location.  On VAX a  G > non-negative Longword.  On Alpha a non-negative Longword or Quadword.   M The same is true of C pointers.  In C, arrays are implemented so that indexes L are pointers, and the same pointer arithmetic that increments an array index works for other pointers.   N Not my design, no defending it, just pointing out where Mr. Nyblad is correct.   --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 16:28:11 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <UO+RpKRGW+TQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <-uWdnQsuSYGmn3DeRVn-rw@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>  H >> The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to >> pass to the called routine. > 8 > You either pass a single element, or the entire array. > E    OK, I lost track of what language you were talking about.  In some H    passing a single element is indistinguishable from passing the entireE    array.  In some there is a difference.  And in some you can pass a G    slice of the array that may not be a contiguous subset of the array.    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2006 22:43:43 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <454j8vF4sdroU1@individual.net>   3 In article <ejtvupiMnu+B@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X > In article <453ku1F4mtsqU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>   >> Ratfor?          :-)  > G >    I recently re-aquired a Rational FORTRAN preprocessor, but haven't ' >    learned it will enough to compare.  > B >    Didn't RATFOR use <> instead of {} and FORTRAN-ish syntax for >    it's additional DO loops? > F >    I know a lot of folks who were surprised not to get some of those' >    additional DO loops in Fortran-77.      integer x,y  x=1; y=2
 if(x == y)         write(6,600) else if(x > y)         write(6,601) else         write(6,602) x=1  while(x < 10){         if(y != 2) break         if(y != 2) next          write(6,603)x 
         x=x+1 	         }  repeat
         x=x-1 
 until(x == 0)  for(x=0; x < 10; x=x+1)          write(6,604)x  600 format('Wrong, x != y')  601 format('Also wrong, x < y')  602 format('Ok!')  603 format('x = ',i2)  604 format('x = ',i2)  end    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:05:38 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings, Message-ID: <43ED1C42.724B2C3A@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:7 > > Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  > G > That's an array index, not a pointer as I understand pointers on VMS.   
 Not quite.  
 You can have:    int myarray[20] ,  *mypointer;     mypointer = &( myarray[10] ) mypointer = &myarray + 10 ;   E In both cases, mypointer should be equal  and contains the address of  trhe 11th element in the array.    mypointer -> the address7 *mypointer -> the integer value located at that address     D In the second case, &myarray generate the address of the base of the( array (element 0). The "+ 10" is really:   	+ (10 * SIZEOF(int) )  A The compiler knows that mypointer was declared as a pointer to an F integer, so it knows that any arithmetic done with that variable is to7 deal in increments of the size of an integer (4 bytes).   H Unlike what may have said here, C is actually strongly typed, especially8 since ANSI C. But it still lacks proper string handling.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 17:48:40 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <zz6rNMzwK+Ij@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <-uWdnQsuSYGmn3DeRVn-rw@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > JF Mezei wrote:  >> Dave Froble wrote:  >>  J >>>If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed0 >>>to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds. >>> F >>>You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a >>>decent language.  >>   >>   >>  H >> The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to >> pass to the called routine. > 8 > You either pass a single element, or the entire array. > % > Maybe C allows something different.   - Or a slice of an array, if you are using Ada.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 17:46:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <QLZG$927Xqrs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <43ecef27$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:n >> In article <43eca195$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >>   >>  I >>>Besides both Ada and Pascal are languages where pointers are used for  I >>>implementing data structures when arrays are not appropriate.  So Ada  1 >>>and Pascal do not differ from C on that topic.  >>   >>  J >> No, Ada Access Values differ considerably from C Pointers, in that theyK >> do not allow pointer arithmetic.  One does not add 1 to a pointer to get I >> the next byte (or is it longword).  In that regard, C is not much more & >> than a glorified assembly language. > J > Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  Then the pointer + J > 1 will point to the next element in the array.  (Assuming that the type K > of the pointer matches the element type of the array.)  But I wonder how  % > many people use that feature today.   E Whereas I was wondering how many will remember how it works when they  write such code.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:43:45 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings, Message-ID: <43ED3339.DBAE181E@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:G > Whereas I was wondering how many will remember how it works when they  > write such code.    F Pointer arithmetic in C is well defined. And with Ansi C, the compilerH has become quite pedantic about usage. If you want to cheat with pointerN arithmetic, you need to make it explicit with the typecasting or using "void".   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 19:00:42 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <1k+HN0jRWbzC@eisner.encompasserve.org>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:   L > Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  Then the pointer +   L > 1 will point to the next element in the array.  (Assuming that the type   L > of the pointer matches the element type of the array.)  But I wonder how  & > many people use that feature today.   \ In article <43ED3339.DBAE181E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote:H >> Whereas I was wondering how many will remember how it works when they >> write such code.  >  > * > Pointer arithmetic in C is well defined.  C But if Karsten is correct that not many people use the feature, the < fact that it is well defined will not help them remember it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:22:04 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings/ Message-ID: <m4KdnSHEHP6oxXDeRVn-iQ@libcom.com>    Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >> Karsten Nyblad wrote: >>7 >>> Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  >> >> >>I >> That's an array index, not a pointer as I understand pointers on VMS.  I >> It's just a numeric value.  A pointer, (as I understand pointers), is  @ >> the address of a virtural memory address/location.  On VAX a H >> non-negative Longword.  On Alpha a non-negative Longword or Quadword. >>F >>>  Then the pointer + 1 will point to the next element in the array. >> >> >>, >> That's just incrementing a numeric value. >  > K > Sorry, but pointers in C and C++ do have the semantics I describe.  That  J > is:  Let size(A) be the number of bytes used for storing values of type I > A.  If you have a pointer pointing to something of type A then size(A)  I > will be added to the binary value of the pointer when you add 1 to the  
 > pointer.   Ok.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:34:57 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <2dydnVvK1quhxnDenZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@libcom.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Karsten Nyblad wrote:  >  > L >>Let a pointer in C point to an element in an array.  Then the pointer +   L >>1 will point to the next element in the array.  (Assuming that the type   L >>of the pointer matches the element type of the array.)  But I wonder how  & >>many people use that feature today.  >  > ^ > In article <43ED3339.DBAE181E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >  >>Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>H >>>Whereas I was wondering how many will remember how it works when they >>>write such code.  >> >>* >>Pointer arithmetic in C is well defined. >  > E > But if Karsten is correct that not many people use the feature, the > > fact that it is well defined will not help them remember it.  G Earlier in this thread, at least I think so, the claim was made that C  : was designed to have the capabilities of PDP-11 assembler.  B I know of no other language that handles arrays in such a manner. C Having used a number of assembly languages, I understand what it's  H doing.  What I don't understand is why such a thing was included in any H language that's more than an assembler.  I've been thinking rather hard I on the technique, and I challenge anyone to provide a need for such that  ) isn't more easily done in another manner.   G What it suggests to me is the capability of looking at some part of an  I array element, not necessarily including the first byte/bit in the array.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:39:05 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <2dydnVXK1quuwXDenZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@libcom.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:[ > In article <-uWdnQsuSYGmn3DeRVn-rw@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >  >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:  >>>  >>> K >>>>If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed 1 >>>>to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds.  >>>>G >>>>You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a  >>>>decent language. >>>  >>>  >>> H >>>The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to >>>pass to the called routine. >>8 >>You either pass a single element, or the entire array. >>% >>Maybe C allows something different.  >  > / > Or a slice of an array, if you are using Ada.   G Never thought of doing that, but Ok, I can see how that may be useful.   Just as useful in C I guess.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:37:44 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <2dydnVrK1qt8xnDenZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@libcom.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:  >  >> Dave Froble wrote:  >>K >>> If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed 1 >>> to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds.  >>> G >>> You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a  >>> decent language. >> >> >> >>H >> The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to >> pass to the called routine. >  > 8 > You either pass a single element, or the entire array. > % > Maybe C allows something different.  > K >> you could have an array allocated for 10 items, and use only the first 3 I >> and want to only pass 3 to the called routine. The compiler, even with J >> any run-time compiler generated code, has no way to know this so cannot7 >> possibly include array bounds in the argument stack.  >>J >> Furthermore, consider an arreay declared to have 10 elements, which youD >> pass to some external surboutine which populates the array with XJ >> elements. You then pass that array to another routine. The compiler hadH >> no way to tell called subroutines how many elements are used in that 	 >> array.  >  > H > Read my lips.  There is a structure called an array descriptor.  It's I > the array descriptor, passed by ref (address of the array descriptor),  K > that is passed to the subprogram.  Not the address of the first, or any,  1 > element, when the entire array is being passed.  > H >> Besides, when you look at VMS system services that expect item lists,J >> they just want an address to an item list, they don't want some address >> to some array descriptor. >  > K > Wasn't talking about item lists.  Perhaps you were, and yes, an array of  J > longwords can be used as an item list, passing the address of the first H > element in the array.  But that's an item list, not passing an entire  > array to a subprogram. >   G Actually, for an item list, you could pass the address of any longword  < in the array.  It wouldn['t be limited to the first element.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:37:23 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <43ED5BF3.143B5C15@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <43EBFAD3.9D14B008@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>0 > >> In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>,A > >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > >> > Tom Linden wrote: > >> >> ? > >> >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis ' > >> >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote:  > >> >> 	 > >> >> > 1 > >> >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS?  > >> >> 5 > >> >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP?  > >> >O > >> > Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicle K > >> > with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum  > >> > distillates?  > >> >3 > >> > Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD?  > >> >M > >> > Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the world N > >> > "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot? > >> >J > >> > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas? > >> >N > >> > Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough,8 > >> > both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.) > >> >9 > >> > Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find.  > >> >I > >> > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get so L > >> > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing forK > >> > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that  > >> > way.  > >>K > >> Perhaps the difference is that the persons needing to invest the money K > >> and time in those products could clearly see a market which guaranteed L > >> a return on their investment.  Can the same be said for any VMS product5 > >> today much less for something as niche as PL/I!!  > > F > > There's HOW many viruses, worms, trojans, misc. exploits, etc. for6 > > WhineBloze? (Yesterday's count, +/- 1000 will do.) > J > What does that have to do with how people percieve VMS (If they are even2 > aware of its existence!)  Perception is reality.  : Then, I guess it's time to change that perception, eh? ;-)   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:38:01 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <43ED5C19.11592DED@comcast.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > b > In article <43EBEC95.B733CC9E@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Tom Linden wrote:  > >>< > >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis$ > >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote: > >> > >> >. > >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? > >>2 > >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP? > F > > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soI > > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for H > > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that > > way. > / > PL/I is not one of the needs they anticipate.   . Flood insurance is often a need unanticipated.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:42:48 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings9 Message-ID: <YMudnexlGOKOwHDenZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:[ > In article <-uWdnQsuSYGmn3DeRVn-rw@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > H >>>The compiler does not know how many elements in the array you wish to >>>pass to the called routine. >>8 >>You either pass a single element, or the entire array. >> > G >    OK, I lost track of what language you were talking about.  In some J >    passing a single element is indistinguishable from passing the entireG >    array.  In some there is a difference.  And in some you can pass a I >    slice of the array that may not be a contiguous subset of the array.   = I'm thinking that I may be discussing this from a particular  F perspective, and not allowing for other perspectives.  I need to be a  bit more tolerant i guess.  ' The experiences that form my posts are:    MACRO-10 MACRO-11 MACRO-32 Basic+ Basic Plus 2	 VAX Basic  Fortran  Cobol (but not much)  :-) & And maybe a sprinkling of a few others  ( Maybe I should get out a bit more often?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:45:22 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <43ED5DD1.AB2C3C55@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > 6 > On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:29:58 -0600, David J Dachtera$ > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >  > > Tom Linden wrote:  > >>< > >> On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 17:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Keith A. Lewis$ > >> <klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG> wrote: > >> > >> >. > >> > p.s.  Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? > >>2 > >> No.  Do you need it?  If so have you told HP? > > L > > Have you told "Detroit" (Ford, GM, "Mopar", ...) that you need a vehicleH > > with no dependence on frequent refills of large amounts of petroleum > > distillates? > > 0 > > Who told Apple that the world "needed" iPOD? > > J > > Who told HP that the world "needed" iPAQ? ...or told M$ that the worldK > > "needed" Win/CE? ...or told Palm that the world "needed" the PalmPilot?  > > G > > Who told DEC that the world "needed" the PDPs? ...VAXes? ...Alphas?  > > K > > Who told IBM that the world "needed" personal computers? (Oddly enough, 5 > > both IBM *AND* DEC dropped the ball on that one.)  > I > Not quite accurate.  Dec did but not IBM, they came out blazing in 1981  > IIRCH > I remember reading somewhere at the time that IBM produced a Selectric
 > typrewriter F > every 17 secs in their Greensborough factory, which was converted to > producing PCs J > The PC business as you know was sold to Lenovo but IBM effectively still
 > controls > it.   F To be accurate, IBM *DID* drop the PC ball, and only picked it back up% after the "horses had left the barn".    > > 6 > > Clearly, true visionaries are indeed hard to find. > > F > > Not intended as an insult or a put down, by the way. I just get soI > > damned angry that people who should be anticipating and providing for H > > "needs" will instead ride the ebbing tide. Hard to catch a ride that > > way. > > E > I think what perhaps frustrates so many on this list is the lack of  > marketing I > of VMS.  There is no marketing skill within VMS managment, which is why  > theyJ > are reactive rather than proactive, it is an unfortunate legacy from the	 > fat and L > happy days of the VAX.  Even then they were not proactive, just lucky.  In > manyJ > ways dealing with VMS management is like dealing some government agency.  F My take is that VMS management does possess skill in this area, though4 perhaps not as well developed as it could/should be.  ; What is lacking is vision, foresight, chutzpah, and more...   J > Now in the case of PL/I on Itanium, there is a considerable cutomer base > out there.@ > An example.  A few months ago we got a call from Mittal Steel,  F I would have said, "a prominent steel mfg.'ing concern...". Some folksC don't like their internal/competitive strategies being made public.   	 > who are 
 > still using I > VAXen in many of their plants around the world.  They would probably be  > buying somewhereH > around 400 to 500 systems for their 25 or so plants. They have a large > body of code andG > applications written in PL/I.  They wanted to migrate to Itanium, but  > lacking PL/IG > HP now opens themselves up to competition, because they have no added  > value to offer. I > If Mittal is going to unnecessarily spend the money to rewrite all this  > code, why shouldC > they reward HP with the business, who have placed them in such an  > unfavorable position. F > And remember, rewriting code is no easy task and takes many years to > achieve stability.E > In general, PL/I code cannot be easily rewritten in C, but requires  > reengineering the K > task.  It is like asking a Mercedes Benz owner to upgrade to a Chevrolet.   G Indeed. Those in need may not necessarily know when or where to express + it. Hence, the need for vision and insight.    Many wonder what happened.    Many others watch things happen.   Some make things happen.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 22:46:43 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <BAXghsMaf2pP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <43ED5DD1.AB2C3C55@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > Tom Linden wrote:   K >> Now in the case of PL/I on Itanium, there is a considerable cutomer base 
 >> out there. A >> An example.  A few months ago we got a call from Mittal Steel,  > H > I would have said, "a prominent steel mfg.'ing concern...". Some folksE > don't like their internal/competitive strategies being made public.   > I have had conversations with Tom in the past, and I would say< the average steel company is happy to publish their business. secrets, compared to some of his customers :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:12:30 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>J Subject: Re: OT: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability+ Message-ID: <43ED642E.B8181F51@comcast.net>    Alan Greig wrote:  > A > Gartner has finally woken up its clients to the ever increasing E > scalability of X86-64. Would be interesting to read the full thing.  > ===  > 6 > http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=136040	 > Gartner  > > > IBM xSeries 460: A Scalable x64 Server for Windows and Linux > 12 January 2006  >  > Ian Brown  > [snip] >  > Full article $195 , 19 pages.   H Search the IBM website for "xSeries 460". Found some usable info. there.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:07:05 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>/ Subject: Re: PCSI questions and answers---again * Message-ID: <JpdHf.4558$_D1.4529@trnddc03>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: J > In article <4jzGf.148359$7l4.47252@trnddc05>, John Santos <john@egh.com>
 > writes:  >  > L >>>I think this is still the case.  After all the recovery data is deleted, K >>>then the next installation WILL save it, even if I don't specify /SAVE,   >>>if I answer as above. >>F >>What do you mean by "next installation"?  Do you mean the one you doB >>next week to install the patch that came out tomorrow, or do you0 >>mean the "next installation" of the set above? >>F >>The next installation will save its recovery data IF and ONLY IF youC >>specify /SAVE on the NEXT installation.  If you specify /SAVE, it D >>always will save any existing recovery data, and the recovery dataB >>from the current installation.  If you don't specify /SAVE, thenF >>any existing recovery data is deleted, and no recovery data is savedD >>from the current installation.  (All this assuming A) that the kitG >>doesn't include asking the question to override the lack of the /SAVE B >>qualifier and B) the kit is compatible with /SAVE, as all recent5 >>patch kits, but no regular product kits AFAIK are.)  >  > & > OK, got it down pat now, chief.  :-) > I > Never specifying /SAVE, every other patch would say it is deleting the  C > old recovery data.  I guess this is because they DID include the  I > question about ovrriding the lack of the /SAVE qualifier.  So it would  , > save it, and the next would delete it etc. > # > I'll specify /SAVE in the future.   D By Jove, I think you've got it!  (Something about the argument aboutA datum and one DECUS symposium, two DECUS symposia, reminded me of  Prof. Higgins.)  :-)  4 BTW, Mozilla's spell checker didn't like "symposia."   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 10:59:05 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com / Subject: Re: Security experts say no secure OS! C Message-ID: <1139597945.522845.261690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    takes one to know one ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:23:39 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>/ Subject: Re: Security experts say no secure OS! : Message-ID: <PoudnQH8FqG6vHDenZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@bresnan.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:  H > these guys obviously don't know about OpenVMS, or in IBMs case, do not	 > want to G > acknowledge it ... put o boot on VMS, sure, but where decides what it  > can do ... what  > idiots ... > w > http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=L1WPBLPNLDMS2QSNDBCSKHSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=179103249  >   G Funny that the journalists always say "... experts ..." but never give  $ out names.  Very weak on their part.   --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:13:55 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>/ Subject: Re: Security experts say no secure OS! = Message-ID: <-sCdnRUk0uTZsXDeRVn-hA@metrocastcablevision.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > takes one to know one ...   I I'm not sure that you meant that the way it came out, but it did produce  H another good laugh.  If you *did* mean it that way, you just managed to = rise a notch in my opinion (not that that may matter to you).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:46:22 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: Security experts say no secure OS! 9 Message-ID: <YMudne9lGOJ1wHDenZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@libcom.com>    GreyCloud wrote: > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > I >> these guys obviously don't know about OpenVMS, or in IBMs case, do not 
 >> want toH >> acknowledge it ... put o boot on VMS, sure, but where decides what it >> can do ... what
 >> idiots ...  >>y >> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=L1WPBLPNLDMS2QSNDBCSKHSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=179103249   >> >> > I > Funny that the journalists always say "... experts ..." but never give  & > out names.  Very weak on their part. >   F Well, one thing I saw mentioned is that even if you have a secure OS, = you can still implement unsecure applications.  This is true.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:56:56 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43ED6088.85F20C34@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >> > >>>Dave Froble wrote:  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Dave Froble wrote:  > >>>>>  > >>>>>  > >>>>>  > >>>>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>J > >>>>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further thanB > >>>>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]).	 > >>>>>>>  > >>>>>>2 > >>>>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >>>>>  > >>>>> N > >>>>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsL > >>>>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. > >>>>>  > >>>>N > >>>>I know what you meant.  My post was a not subtle way of saying "go pound@ > >>>>salt".  I really don't understand these types of requests. > >>>  > >>> I > >>>You're obviously not effected by ISV abandonment that locks you into  > >>>V5.5-2 or such. > >>D > >>While that is an issue for some, there is no linkage to what VMS= > >>development can/should do with old versions of utilities.  > >> > >> > >>>>It's hard M > >>>>enough keeping the current version of any software working.  To ask for N > >>>>a feature to be placed in an older version assumes that it can easily be > >>>>plugged in.  > >>>  > >>> L > >>>Well, no it doesn't. Speaking for myself, at least, I realize that codeK > >>>- especially code as old as VMS BACKUP, even the current incarnation - B > >>>is likely not sufficiently modular as to allow for extension,J > >>>enhancement, etc. without a fair amount of work. I just don't dismissL > >>>the possibility out-of-hand that it may be possible, and that those whoC > >>>lag behind through no fault if their own would appreciate some I > >>>enhancements to their otherwise burdensome environment (say "DILOG", % > >>>"CMD", "CIQBA", "Emulex", etc.).  > >>>  > >>>  > >>> @ > >>>>This assumption too many times will be invalid.  To expectN > >>>>an in-depth analysis of every prior version of any utility is asking way > >>>>too much.  > >>>  > >>> J > >>>A quick look-see would probably be sufficient to say whether it looksL > >>>possible or whether the "looker" shuddered at the thought of attempting > >>>to tackle the older code. > >>G > >>No, a quick look-see is NOT sufficient.  I cannot count the times I I > >>broke something because of a quick look-see.  Many times when someone H > >>thought that their mod should be simple.  Guess who is to blame when > >>something is broke?  > >  > > L > > "Looks possible" is hardly casting anything in stone, or commiting one's# > > self to an irreversible course.  > >  > > E > >>>Along the same line as "innocent until proven guilty", how 'bout ' > >>>"possible until proven otherwise"?  > >>>  > >>I > >>No, it's more like not possible until proven otherwise.  That proving L > >>otherwise would include a through analysis of the existing app, what the< > >>mod would do to existing capabilities, and a significantH > >>re-certification of the application, including all capabilities, not$ > >>just the newly added capability. > >  > > H > > Seems like a lot of work to go through for a simple "I told you so". > > J > > How much of your flying did you approach with the attitude "This crateL > > will never fly!" or "No way in hell!"? How many safely concluded flightsK > > do you think you could you have conducted while holding such a mindset?  > E > If I think the crate will never fly, it will take a large number of F > really large guys to first catch me, and then stuff me in the crate. > E > Safe flights are conducted when you check everything out and insure    Did you mean "assure"?  ) > yourself that an aircraft is airworthy.   8 Of course, like EDP, that's only one part of the puzzle.  
 For a flight: % o Will instrument skills be required? ' o Is the aircraft instrument certified? $ o Is the pilot instrument certified?   For mod.'-ing a program:D o I sthe code capable of being comprehended by a capable programmer?F o Is the programmer capable of understanding what it will take to make the mod. successful?  I > Reads to me like you're shooting your own position in the foor.  Do you - > advocate reckless modification of software?    I advocate positive attitudes.  @ Zig Ziglar said it this way: "Positive thinking won't let you doA anything... but it will HELP you do ANYthing better than negative  thinking will".    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:57:22 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43ED60A2.9DAB7D6B@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >> > >>>John Reagan wrote:  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Dave Froble wrote:  > >>>>>  > >>>>>  > >>>>>  > >>>>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>J > >>>>>>>...and, of course, we'd like to see that back-ported further thanB > >>>>>>>possible (V5.5-2, V6.2[-1H3], V7.2-2, V7.3-2, V8.2[-1?]).	 > >>>>>>>  > >>>>>>2 > >>>>>>Here's the diagnose part of your backport. > >>>>>  > >>>>> N > >>>>>Of course, I meant back-port the additional cod to the earlier versionsL > >>>>>of BACKUP. There's already a DCL proc. on the freeware CD to do this. > >>>>>  > >>>>K > >>>>We have some rather strict guidelines about backporting.  In general, M > >>>>customers who have stayed with older versions of OpenVMS, do so because  > >>>>they are stable. > >>>  > >>> M > >>>Some of them, yes. Others simply have no choice. The ISV has vanished or J > >>>moved on to the The Dark Side, VESTing is not possible and/or lack ofM > >>>source code are likely other reasons for lagging behind. Hardly anyone's 
 > >>>"fault".  > >>>  > >>>  > >>> J > >>>>Backporting new features, while a worthy goal, increases the risk ofE > >>>>instability (Guy can't be perfect all of the time).  BACKUP, in K > >>>>particular, demands even more paranoia since it is complex, and it is ' > >>>>hard to test in all combinations.  > >>>>J > >>>>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of moneyB > >>>>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. > >>>  > >>> M > >>>Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so = > >>>little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS.  > >>>  > >> > >>Ok, I see how it works.  > >> > >>Someone else shafts you. > >># > >>VMS engineering gets the blame.  > >> > >>Is that right? > >  > > 0 > > Huh? Non-capisco - where did THAT come from? > >  > E > Some application shafts you, no longer supports VMS, you cannot get  > sources, whatever. > ! > VMS engineering gets the blame.  >  > Is that right?   Not even close.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:01:48 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43ED61AC.24C10495@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > John Reagan wrote: > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >> > >>>John Reagan wrote:  > >>> J > >>>>Unless there is a very compelling business reason (ie, LOTS of moneyB > >>>>riding on the backported feature), it probably won't happen. > >>>  > >>> M > >>>Too bad "customer good will" carries so little weight and is accorded so = > >>>little value at HP and predecessors as owner of OpenVMS.  > >>>  > >>A > >>I'll assume you aren't directing that at me as I try to be as F > >>customer-friendly as possible (I was a customer in a former life). > >  > > I > > Not directed at you personally, just reacting the mention of "lots of J > > money". See related posts in other threads about the cost of acquiringE > > customers versus the cost of retaining them, or generating repeat 
 > > business.  > >  > > L > >>This is like asking Ford Motor Company, "Dear Ford, I have a 1973 pickupE > >>truck.  Drives fine.  I can still get lots of after market parts. K > >>However, I see that you just shipped a new and improved anti-lock brake G > >>system that will help me out in certain situations.  Can you please D > >>provide this new brake system for my 1973 truck free of charge?" > >>C > >>Now, I understand it isn't a fair comparision, but it is close.  > >  > > < > > To be fair, the after market fills that gap rather well. > >  > > J > >>It isn't just building BACKUP for those older OpenVMS releases, but inK > >>many cases, it is literally reimplementing the change (granted, in some L > >>cases, it would just be a cut-n-paste operation, but even those go wrong > >>sometimes).  > >  > > K > > Having been an application programmer in a past life, I quickly learned E > > to make such code easily upgradeable so that long-sought features G > > arriving in current versions could be easily back-ported to earlier H > > versions where the needed level of modularity allowed. The customersB > > were only internal, but they were, none the less, grateful andH > > appreciative, and paid us back by making sure our management knew we > > were looking out for them. > >  > > H > >>Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how. > >>many people would install it and trust it? > >  > > > > > How many third-party companies survive doing exactly that? > >  > F > Isn't that where this started?  A third party gave you a capability. > But you didn't want that.   D Non sequitur. I need a program (BACKUP) to acquire a new capability. What I can do is irrelevant.  B That said, learning to use the BACKUP API could be useful once oneG builds the necessary "front-end" code to locate the saveset and massage  it's file/record attributes.  / > You wanted VMS engineering to backport to old  > versions.   D Now you're back on target. I knew you could do it! Practice it a few times to hone the skill.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:03:40 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: sneak preview - BACKUP/REPAIR+ Message-ID: <43ED621C.84E210D2@comcast.net>    John Reagan wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > John Reagan wrote:H > >>Even if we made the anti-lock brakes for your 1973 pickup truck, how. > >>many people would install it and trust it? > >  > > > > > How many third-party companies survive doing exactly that? > >  > B > Even JC Whitney has limits.  (Personally, while I'm a JC Whitney5 > customer, I'm always amazed they stay in business.)   G D'ya ever hear of DAK (Drew Alan Kaplan)? Have you seen his DAK2000.com  website?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2006 13:15:45 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs3 Message-ID: <8FLudD8PanNK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A51198.9DC72B7B@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: e > In article <C9fo01pUHKV7@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >> >>a >>In article <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >>L >>> Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID ofI >>> a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening and B >>> V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were5 >>> "visible", but the files were at least available.  >>I >>ISO 9660 requires that files be accessible by standard names as well as H >>by other naming methods.  Of course Joliet is not exactly a compatibleH >>extension as authorized by ISO 9660, but it does allow compliance with >>that one point.  > F > I've tried mounting some of these but if the short name has a ~, VMS > can't find it on the CD.  A It is not possible to generalize in these cases -- many allegedly ? ISO-9660 CDROMS are actually constructed improperly, and tested & only by whether they mount on Windows.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:09:57 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs+ Message-ID: <43ED6394.C951D3E3@comcast.net>   ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > e > In article <C9fo01pUHKV7@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > >  > > b > >In article <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > M > >> Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID of J > >> a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening andC > >> V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were 6 > >> "visible", but the files were at least available. > > J > >ISO 9660 requires that files be accessible by standard names as well asI > >by other naming methods.  Of course Joliet is not exactly a compatible I > >extension as authorized by ISO 9660, but it does allow compliance with  > >that one point. > F > I've tried mounting some of these but if the short name has a ~, VMS > can't find it on the CD.  9 Hhmmm... just tried extended parse style, too. No schmae.    Drat...    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:32:57 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: V7.3-2 and Joliet CDs+ Message-ID: <43ED68F9.E44B5C90@comcast.net>   ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > e > In article <C9fo01pUHKV7@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > >  > > b > >In article <43EBFB69.CC050B8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > M > >> Discovered something interesting the other night. I did MOUNT/OVER=ID of J > >> a Joliet format CD I'd burned (Easy CD Creator V3.5) that evening andC > >> V7.3-2 MOUNTed it as ISO-9660. Only the "short" filenames were 6 > >> "visible", but the files were at least available. > > J > >ISO 9660 requires that files be accessible by standard names as well asI > >by other naming methods.  Of course Joliet is not exactly a compatible I > >extension as authorized by ISO 9660, but it does allow compliance with  > >that one point. > F > I've tried mounting some of these but if the short name has a ~, VMS > can't find it on the CD.  = On the other hand, this looks like a potentially useful hack:   * $ cop dka400:[dnload]*.txt/conf d.d/noconcG COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]ACSSS_~1.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]: y G COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]ALPHA_~1.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]: y G COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]AXPVMS~1.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]: y D COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]BAND_A.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]: E COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]BAS_FSP.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]:  C COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]CARLY.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]:  D COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]CHKAXS.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]: G COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]COMCAS~1.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]: y F COPY DKA400:[DNLOAD]COMPOS~1.TXT;1 to SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]d.d; ? [N]:  Exit  	 $ dir d.d    Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]  ; D.D;4               D.D;3               D.D;2                D.D;1                  Total of 4 files.      --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.083 ************************                                                                                                                                                      [{0+yGt($
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