0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 13 Feb 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 88      Contents:# Re: Apache 2.1 running on OVMS IA64  Bind server strategy in cluster % Re: cluster-wide logicals and startup $ Disabling date/time prompt at boot ?( Re: Disabling date/time prompt at boot ?( Re: Disabling date/time prompt at boot ?% Re: Excessive paging problem - SOLVED  RE: FOR070.DAT files appearing= Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability = Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability = RE: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability = Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability & Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems; Re: how to check for the existence of a logical-name table?  RE: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings  Re: null terminated strings , Obtaining TOY clock info from console prompt0 Re: Obtaining TOY clock info from console prompt0 Re: Obtaining TOY clock info from console prompt Re: PDPs in the news!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:27:47 +0000 5 From: sysulfo <sysulfo.235pw0@nomx.sysadminforum.com> , Subject: Re: Apache 2.1 running on OVMS IA643 Message-ID: <sysulfo.235pw0@nomx.sysadminforum.com>    Hi !  E We have managed to solve the problem (sql-connection betw. Apache <-> $ Rdb). We now use cgi-script instead.   Thanks for the replies.    Rgds.    >>> Ulf      --   sysulfo " posted via http://sysdminforum.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 04:36:16 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ( Subject: Bind server strategy in cluster, Message-ID: <43F052EE.3E72BE1B@teksavvy.com>  / Ok. VAX-VMS , TCPIP Services 7.3 (aka: Bind 8).   H So far, I had my workstation (BIKE) acting as BIND server for my lan. ItB serves lan-side transation for lan hosts, as well as fetching realC internet IPs for internet hosts. It does not get internet requests.     H What I want to do is move the bind server over to my newer servers (VELOE and WHEEL) which have cluster alias between the two. I also have DHCP - server and dynamic updates to the DNS system.   H The documentation states that you cannot have two bind servers share theG same config files in a cluster if there are dynamic updates. (and I can G understand since server 1 would update zone files with server 2 unaware H this was done and server 2 could then update the same zone files and zap changes done by 1).   H If the bind servers are accessed only via the cluster alias IP, only oneG of the two would be "active" at any point in time with the other server F in stand-by. Whould this make using shared configs and dynamic updatesE workable ? (By the time the stand-by gets connections, all its cached G entries would have expired and it would load from the real zone files)    F Alternatively, could I configure each bind server to do zone transfersB FROM the cluster alias IP ? One of the servers would end up askingF itself for a zone transfer. But if the cluster alias switches, it willF automatically ask the other server for zone transfer.  Would this then allow for dynamic updates ?   @ Does anyone have an example config that shows how automated zone transfers can be made ?    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 03:42:17 -0800) From: "Rok Vidmar" <Rok.Vidmar@gmail.com> . Subject: Re: cluster-wide logicals and startupC Message-ID: <1139830937.311223.275040@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   ' > I need to use them in SYLOGICALS.COM.   D  No, in fact, you don't. You need to use them in SYSECURITY.COM, and) usually they are alive and kicking there.  -- Regards, Rok   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 05:00:30 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Disabling date/time prompt at boot ? , Message-ID: <43F0589B.282AEC83@teksavvy.com>  C On vaxes, if the TOY clock wasn't quite right, VMS insists that one 6 enters a date/time some time during the boot sequence.  F With the advent of NTP, one can be reasonably assured that time can beA set properly once the TCPIP stack has booted if the TOY clock was 
 unavailable.    E Thus, is there a neat trick to get VMS to use the "date zero" when it * boots instead of prompting for date/time ?  F I am thinking of lights out operations where after a power failure, ifF the batteries have turned into duds, the machine may be prevented from rebooting due to that prompt.   H BTW, The microvax II, VAX4000-500A, VAX4000-200 all use the same type ofE batteries, namely 3 AAAs Nicads soldered into a 3.6v power source and  with the same connector).   E However, on the 4000-200, it requires real disassembly of the console 0 module because the batteries are not accessible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 05:50:08 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Disabling date/time prompt at boot ? , Message-ID: <43F0643A.78BB2484@teksavvy.com>   Richard Brodie wrote: 5 > Yes, change TIMEPROMPTWAIT to a different number of  > microfortnights.  ; Many thanks for pointing to the right parameter in SYSGEN !    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 07:47:30 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 1 Subject: Re: Disabling date/time prompt at boot ? 3 Message-ID: <WP3vdHIIikpc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43F0589B.282AEC83@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:E > On vaxes, if the TOY clock wasn't quite right, VMS insists that one 8 > enters a date/time some time during the boot sequence. > H > With the advent of NTP, one can be reasonably assured that time can beC > set properly once the TCPIP stack has booted if the TOY clock was  > unavailable. >   G    There is a SYSGEN parameter (TIMEPROMPTWAIT) that controls what VMS  E    does.  The default is to prompt repeatedly during boot if the TOY  F    clock doesn't make sense.  You can also set it to never prompt, or     prompt only once.  I    If you count on NTP and the TOY clock is wrong, you will get improper  G    time stamps on anything that occurs prior to NTP updating the clock.   G    Also, be aware that older NTP implementations have a short tolerance G    for NTP making updates; if the time delta is too large they will not 8    do the update.  Typically this threshold is settable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:25:29 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>. Subject: Re: Excessive paging problem - SOLVED+ Message-ID: <45bmnaF5tnirU1@individual.net>    Bernhard Dorninger wrote:  > Hello again! >  > ( > For those, who might be interested.... > @ > After experimenting with the Java cmd line args and long time * > observation, we finally found a solution > I > Activating the switch -Xdynclassgc did the trick. The Java VM now runs   > with a stable working set. >   % Thanks for letting us know, Bernhard.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:44:24 +1100 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>' Subject: RE: FOR070.DAT files appearing X Message-ID: <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC307E674@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>  < Hmm, I'll hand insert chevrons, so a lot of avoided comments   -----Original Message-----3 From: Ken Fairfield [mailto:my.full.name@intel.com] * Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:22 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ' Subject: Re: FOR070.DAT files appearing      >Bill Gunshannon wrote: G >> And some of us really don't much care what ISO does!!  Driven mostly K >> by international politics it is a safe bet that ISO will choose whatever " >> is most likely to annoy the US.  C >     My god...  This makes the words, "head in the sand", pop into F >my mind...but I won't go there.  It does seem highly out of characterC >coming from someone in an academic environment where international D >collaboration, exchange of ideas and cooperation on projects is the
 >norm. ;-(  L Hmm, and Bill is an avid Fortran programmer :-)   I'd use the term parochia=  l in the wider sense of country.  E >     I'd also challenge you to find a commercial Fortran 77 compiler F >still being sold today.  Oh, you can buy a compiler that will compileB >Fortran 77 code, but most (by far) commercial compilers availableE >today, on any platform, are F95 compilers...with a few F90 compilers C >as stragglers.  Even on the open source front, you'll find g95 and G >gfortran, both F95 compilers, but g77 has not been touched in years... E >(One exception I will grant is the VAX Fortran compiler which is F77 F >plus extensions, a lot of them.  It does cost money to license and soA >counts as "commercial".  But VAX was EOL a long time ago, and NO ? >development has been done on that compiler since the VMS/Alpha B >version was released, so it's stretching the idea to say that its >"being sold today".)   L This brings to mind my latest concern.  Fortran was stopped at F77 on VAX, =L and the impression I get is that it will be stpped at F95 (with the TR) on =L Alpha -- whether any further development is done on IA64, who knows.  It is=L  essentially in maintenance mode and there seem to be only a handful of egi=L neers to correct serious bugs.  As you may remember, Ken, we were both beta=L  testers on all the Alpha versions of F90/F95 from its first appearance.  T=L he last beta testing sort of stopped dead when Compaq/HP gave the Fortran t=L eam to Intel.  As beta testers, we had excellent follow up from Steve Lione=L l with obviously good backing from his team.  But so much has been left in =L the air.  No cross referencing (which has some advantages over SCA), array =L notation not fully/very optimised (try timing COMPLEX MATMUL against F77 st=L yle loops), constants not unfolded -- just to name a few of the deficiences=L , several of which I reported in the last beta, but which dissolved with St= eve's "passing".  L When I went to the technical update in Sydney last year, I was given the im=L pression (also because of a bug report I filed) that CXML may never make it=L  to IA64.  The reason, no interest.  Since it is bundled with Fortran, how =L is this known.  Definitely all my applications use the BLAS and LAPACK from=L  there.  Yes, I can re-compile from Netlib or revert to NAG, but I have los=L t the heavy optimising that was put in and which made one of our eigenvalue=L  applications run in 25% of its earlier time using the NAG versions of the =L same routines.  I am not putting NAG down, they have provided a service by =L giving us these routines with the original names as entries, but they are n=L ot machine optimised in the same way.  And, of course, they provide many ot=K her excellent routines that we use mainly for integration and optimisation.    Regards, Paddy    G *********************************************************************** ; Please consider the environment before printing this email.   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:01:04 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> F Subject: Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability, Message-ID: <43F02E98.CFF454F0@teksavvy.com>   Bill Todd wrote:A > No, it means exactly what it says:  you just need a quorum disk % > accessible from both cluster nodes.   E And independantly powered so that when you power off any one node for D hardware maintenance, the other node retains access to the disks. In essence, a disk array.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:52:24 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> F Subject: Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability, Message-ID: <43F03A9D.74445AFA@teksavvy.com>  1 Another aspect about that "severs only 15% used".   E Because of pricing and constant advances, it often becomes cheaper to E buy a more recent server, even if that server is overpowered for your  current needs.  @ This is especially true if you don't need extra CPU, but you areA changing your storage system and only newer servers support newer  storage interconnects.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 07:17:07 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> F Subject: RE: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalabilityR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB7D3AB6@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20 ! > Sent: February 13, 2006 2:52 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com H > Subject: Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability >=203 > Another aspect about that "severs only 15% used".  >=20G > Because of pricing and constant advances, it often becomes cheaper to G > buy a more recent server, even if that server is overpowered for your  > current needs. >=20B > This is especially true if you don't need extra CPU, but you areC > changing your storage system and only newer servers support newer  > storage interconnects. >=20   JF -=20   E CIO's today have finally woken up to the fact that the HW costs are a B small fraction of the overall cost of maintaining a server. Labour? (patching, upgrades, monitoring for mgmt/security) and software ) license/support costs are the biggies.=20   A As an example - Oracle charges $40K/CPU list (Linux, Windows, any G platform). Add $50% /CPU for RAC clustering sw. So, assuming one gets a F corp discount to $30K/cpu, it does not take to much math to figure outC that a Linux DB x86 cluster with individual servers running at only E 10-20% busy is not a good investment. And then there is the annual SW 6 maint costs that can run 10%-25% of the SW list costs.  F Its kind of like buying a brand new expensive car, but only driving it' for a few hours on Sunday each week.=20   H Even most mgmt software is based on per server or per cpu pricing and itF is not cheap either. So, you can see where this low server utilizationH is a huge concern for CIO's today. They are under incredible pressure toB reduce costs big time and consolidation and virtualization are theF strategies they are using to reduce these large server numbers down to something more manageable.  G Point is that the days of one for one server refreshes is gone ..expect D big server reductions in the future for most med to large companies.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:20:02 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>F Subject: Re: Gartner wakes up company executives to X86-64 scalability9 Message-ID: <mA0If.1488$QB.784@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Todd wrote: > A >>No, it means exactly what it says:  you just need a quorum disk % >>accessible from both cluster nodes.  >  > G > And independantly powered so that when you power off any one node for F > hardware maintenance, the other node retains access to the disks. In > essence, a disk array.  H Just chaining bare SCSI disks between systems works perfectly well. Bit H grand to describe that as an independently powered disk array. Power up 1 the disks from a $10 PC power supply if you want.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:47:00 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>/ Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit installation problems + Message-ID: <45bnvlF5ufj8U1@individual.net>    William Webb wrote: 6 > On 2/8/06, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> wrote: >  >>William Webb wrote:  >> >><ker-snip> >>- >>>For what it's worth, I've either felt that  >>> 7 >>>1) DHCP is evil and a favorite tool of the devil, or I >>>2) DHCP is a sign from God that you need to create additional subnets.  >>> I >>>depending on what the particular problem du jour was that caused me to  >>>ponder the issue. >>B >>My (consumer grade*) cable router seems to encourage the use of: >> >>a) wireless rather than cable % >>b) DHCP rather than fixed addresses  >>E >>and the salesman thought I was clearly mad for going for the router $ >>rather than a USB modem. <chuckle> >>G >>* El cheapo router though - if I reboot my Alpha, the relevant LED on H >>the router goes out and I need to pull the cable between the Alpha and. >>router then push it back in, then all is OK. >> >  > C > Hmmm.  Wireless.  Now *that* would be a nice thing for the device  > driver guys to work on.  >   F Would that in your opinion be a useful project for VMS? With wireless E routers so cheap nowadays is a software solution for VMS appropriate?    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:18:18 GMT F From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)D Subject: Re: how to check for the existence of a logical-name table?- Message-ID: <_q1If.18$Lz2.69@news.oracle.com>   @ The previously given examples for F$TRNLNM will work, of course.  4 However, I recently created a command procedure that; creates logical names specifically for SYSMAN environmental ; logicals, as the original poster wanted, and what works for  me is:  L $ CREATE /NAME_TABLE /PARENT = LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY SYSMAN$NODE_TABLE /NOLOG  * If the table doesn't exist, it is created.  9 If it does exist, the /NOLOG supresses the error message, 9 and no harm done (the existing table continues to exist).    Bart.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:07:56 +1100 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>$ Subject: RE: null terminated stringsX Message-ID: <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC307E673@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>   -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]' Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 8:22 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings     O'Brien Paddy wrote:I > If the address of the array descriptor is passed, then any array passed / > to the subprogram brings with it it's bounds.  >=20E > You get such usefulness when you have a good calling standard and a  > decent language.   *****    Me (Paddy) talking:   L In this thread, I have been misquoted twice: once by JF and once by DF.  Th=L e quotes used (alluded to me) were actually posts that I had picked up and =L was replying to.  In general, my replies were negative to the posters and t= o what was quoted.  L The only way I can reply to mail which I have to read on Outlook Web Access=L  is by logging on to a PC so as to avoid HTML.  I have spent all my 40+ wor=L king life on real computers (several).  I cannot stand or understand this w= orld of Gates.  Intuitive?????  L Regretfully, I could not find any way to get the chevrons to show quoted te=L xt, so I employed asterisks to denote where I started "talking".  (The only=L  reason the above is "quoted" is because I never saw JF's post via info-vax=%  and picked it up from another reply.   L My apologies if I confused people and I'll try to work out how to get the q=L uoting.  The "expert" contractors here are no help because they believe the=L  whole world is Micro$oft and everyone uses HTML with different colours.  I=L  have to log on to a PC because OWA gives me no choice other than HTML, whe=C reas I have found how to switch to plain text from Outlook on a PC.   L I have managed to accomplish something on this dreadful system and these dr=L eadful applications.  Gone are the days when I had my own VMS account into =L the wide world, even though it had XXX in the address (probably stopped by = spam filters these days).    Regards, Paddy    G *********************************************************************** ; Please consider the environment before printing this email.   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Feb 2006 13:31:16 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <45bg14F5knotU1@individual.net>   3 In article <NjeFw7OrU4rm@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:^ > In article <43EE9567.1B1AAC14@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >>  ; >> I tend to agree that Pascal is a good language to teach.  > @ >    Not surpising since Pascal was originally invented as such.   G Which was my point.  Always choose the right tool for the job.  That is 4 one of the first steps in true software engineering.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 07:23:37 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <T2a85isF0UnB@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43ED8BC8.6B225724@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  F > Not all "arrays" are declared as arrays. You can declare a structureE > (record format) and then dynamically alloacte a buffer big eough to J > contain a dynamically calculated number of instances of that record. YouI > can then use pointers to access individual elements within that buffer.  > E > C also allows you to pass this pointer to a called subroutine which I > expected an argument of that structure type and the subroutine can then  > access that array. > J > Also, it allows you to pass not just the base element of the array , butE > also the address of the nth element of the array and the subroutine H > treats that nth element as element 0. (eg: skip processing the first 5I > records by passing the address of the 6th record instead of that of the  > first record).  9    All of which I've done in Fortran-77 without pointers. D    (OK, for structures I was using VAX Fortran extensions, but I did/    those in Fortran-IV without the extensions).    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 07:29:29 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: null terminated strings3 Message-ID: <NjeFw7OrU4rm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43EE9567.1B1AAC14@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > : > I tend to agree that Pascal is a good language to teach.  >    Not surpising since Pascal was originally invented as such.   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Feb 2006 13:42:03 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings+ Message-ID: <45bglaF5kdo6U1@individual.net>   = In article <43eeea9e$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, . 	Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:E >> Now, as I am sure everyone here things I am the super supporter of E >> C, I have to tell you the truth.  While I can and do program in C, G >> I have always prefered Pascal (why do people here think I have spent H >> so much time looking for the pieces of Tiny Pascal that used to floatE >> around?  I love playing with Pascal compilers in my free time just G >> for grins!!)  As I have said in the past, when I started with the CS E >> department here the starter language was Pascal when it changed to E >> Ada I said I thought it was a bad idea.  When Ada was abandoned in G >> favor of Java I said that too, was a bad idea.  I still believe that K >> the first courses should be taught in Pascal.  We don't teach languages, I >> we teach programming concepts and proper programming practice.  Pascal H >> is still pretty much the best language to do that.  But that does notE >> mean there are not jobs where Ada, Modula, PL/I and even C are the 4 >> right tool for the job.  Or Fortran.  Or COBOL.   >>  J >> Now, hopefully this will put an end to this round of the language wars. >>   >> bill  >>  I > Hopefully not :-).  Why do you think programming should be taught in a  / > language not supporting object orientation?     , http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm  C Not the best, but it at least expresses the idea.  There was a much D better one that actually came out of a major OO conference where theG "experts" in OO had started expressing the idea that the emperor really  was wearing nothing at all.   D >                                              People tend to write B > programs the way they did in their first programming language.    G So, your saying that people stop learning after their first programming D course?  So I guess it's true, you really can't teach an old dog new tricks.  :-)  H >                                                                Thus a I > FORTRAN programmer programs in C, he will only use the features C that   > are also in FORTRAN.    G Well, being someone who has (and still does) programmed in over a dozen E different languages I have to disagree,  My COBOL does not look like  H Fortran and my Fortran does not look like Pascal.  I choose the languageE I am going to use bassed ont he features of the language and how they  fit the task at hand.   H >                       Because of that, if you start by programming in ? > Pascal people may have troubles learning object orientation,    D Sorry to disappoint you, but even when we were still teaching PascalA in our first couple courses by the time they graduated all of our : students had moved on to languages including Java and C++.  I >                                                              and OO is  J > important because it is used by window system like X, Java, and Windows.  L If that is the primary reason for OO, then the emperor truly has no clothes.I (Oh, and as an aside, X predates OO by a rather long period.  The lack of ' OO did not block or even slow it down.)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:55:11 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings1 Message-ID: <zZ1If.3056$Xv5.634@news.cpqcorp.net>    Dave Froble wrote: > compile/anal& > TCP_MSG_TIMEOUT    10-FEB-2006 16:25 > * > %BASIC-E-QUALERR, unknown qualifier ANAL > Ready  > E > Is this something that VAX never had, or something Basic never had?  >   G According to the manual (and the BASIC PL), /ANALYSIS_DATA is valid on  C the DCL command but not available on the compile command inside of   interactive mode.    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:59:20 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: null terminated strings1 Message-ID: <s12If.3057$Xv5.195@news.cpqcorp.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  > O'Brien Paddy wrote:  I > Do any VMS languages have their own complete interfaces to the OS calls G > so that you never need to pass pointers, and you can call VMS systems 9 > services with structures 100% native to your language ?  > F > If Not, then you need to pass pointers to item lists etc, instead of > neat array descriptors.   C The Pascal compiler knows how to build all the descriptors for you.   ? In general, the only time you need to use IADDRESS (the Pascal  G equivalent of the "&" operator in C), is when you are actually filling   in the the itemlists.    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 05:05:52 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 5 Subject: Obtaining TOY clock info from console prompt , Message-ID: <43F059DD.D270C728@teksavvy.com>  F Froms the >>> prompt on vaxes, is there some magic trick to obtain TOY clock information ?   H Basically, after a power up, it would be nice to be able to test the toyC clock validity prior to booting. When one has suspect batteries, it ' isn't very obvious on how to test them.   D (I am looking at VAX 4000-600A and 4000-200 systems mostly, but also+ would like to know about 3100 workstation.)   9 Is there some memory location mapped to the TOY clock ?       What format time does TOY keep ?   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 05:40:21 -0800C From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" <alexdaniels@themail.co.uk> 9 Subject: Re: Obtaining TOY clock info from console prompt C Message-ID: <1139838021.305268.120010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:43F059DD.D270C728@teksavvy.com...H > Froms the >>> prompt on vaxes, is there some magic trick to obtain TOY > clock information ?    Yes.  J > Basically, after a power up, it would be nice to be able to test the toyE > clock validity prior to booting. When one has suspect batteries, it ) > isn't very obvious on how to test them.  > F > (I am looking at VAX 4000-600A and 4000-200 systems mostly, but also- > would like to know about 3100 workstation.)   > I can't remember what's good and what's not, for each of those	 antiques.   @ However  I would guess the following would work for all of them.   EX PR$_TODR   9 > Is there some memory location mapped to the TOY clock ?   ? Yes the TODR (Time of Day Register). 32 bit longword, unsigned.   " > What format time does TOY keep ?  F It's a counter (in intervals of 10ms). That why you need to "set time"C / shutdown, once a year and after reinstalling sys.exe etc, it's an ( offset against a real date stored there.   Alex   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 07:54:20 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: Obtaining TOY clock info from console prompt 3 Message-ID: <G7mA9zudc9VU@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43F059DD.D270C728@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:H > Froms the >>> prompt on vaxes, is there some magic trick to obtain TOY > clock information ?  > J > Basically, after a power up, it would be nice to be able to test the toyE > clock validity prior to booting. When one has suspect batteries, it ) > isn't very obvious on how to test them.  > F > (I am looking at VAX 4000-600A and 4000-200 systems mostly, but also- > would like to know about 3100 workstation.)  > ; > Is there some memory location mapped to the TOY clock ?    > " > What format time does TOY keep ?  D    This depends on the model.  VAX 11/780 TOY clock was a privilegedD    register (not R0 - PC) and could be read from the console if you E    new what register it was.  MicroVAX II simulated the TOY clock at  G    a memory address and could be read if you knew that address.  Alpha  2    use various watch chips, I suspect IA64 do too.  8    IIRC VAX tends to use a TOY clock in microfortnights.        ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2006 00:59:36 -06002 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> Subject: Re: PDPs in the news!? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-2TJDHjft0dWd@dave2_os2.home.ours>   0 On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:51:51 UTC, Rich Alderson & <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:  6 > "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes: > 4 > > On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:45:59 UTC, Rich Alderson * > > <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote: > N > >> I know someone who is actively looking for an 11/60 (not me, not anyone IQ > >> work for).  Please contact me off-line so I can put the two of you in touch.  >  > > It is in Munich Rich.  > : > Thanks, Dave.  I checked; he thinks Munich is a bit far. > 3 > (He usually drives the stuff he buys himself. :-)   * I thought it might present a challenge :-)   --   Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.088 ************************