INFO-VAX Sat, 17 Mar 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 152 Contents: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Re: AMD's well may be running dry Re: AMD's well may be running dry Re: AMD's well may be running dry Re: AMD's well may be running dry Re: AMD's well may be running dry cluster upgrade stratedy Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Power Consumption Re: Power Consumption ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:13:19 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote in news:8ab44$45fafef9$cef8887a$11529@TEKSAVVY.COM: > And the whole idea of a per capita accounting system is that you can > then tell every nation of the world that they are allowed to have X > consumption per capita. Developing nations can continue to develop > until they have reached that level, while developped nations have to > reduce/stabilise their levels. > > This way, developing nations are treated equally and given he same > chance of success as developped nations. And the accounting system > provides a way to ensure that each country meets targets and then > provide for ways to sanction countries that do not meet their targets. > Well that sounds like the beginning of a world government. Strangely enough, I think that is a prophecy you will find in the Bible. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 04:30:03 -0700 From: "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: <1174131003.005897.71490@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> > > the only person using the Bible to promote murder is the devil ... > What color is the sky in your world? One translation of Genesis refers to a "wisper" rather than a "serpent". I know of no one who has ever experienced a talking snake but almost everyone can releate to "a wisper". Is there a real devil or is it just the personification of the evil in all of us? After reading about people like Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot I realize we don't need to blame problems on the super natural devil, we do a pretty good job of screwing up the world on our own. > sometimes wars are justified, just read the old testament ... > > the message of the Bible is very clear ... the question is will you do > Gods will or your own ... sounds like you need to get to church and > get into a good Bible study class or talk to your pastor ... > Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 06:24:18 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: <1174137858.666763.189540@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 1:29 am, Tad Winters wrote: > "AEF" wrote innews:1174094491.561763.203190@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > > > > > No, but by making use of oil more expensive it encourages people to > > use less of it, which reduces the total pollution. I remember learning > > about this in college: the method of taxing pollution. It is the most > > efficient way to do it. The particular idea discussed in the course > > (and its book) was just taxing a factory that emits pollution. You tax > > it a certain rate -- so many dollars for so many tons of pollutant > > emitted. Then it is up to the factory to determine how much to spend > > on scrubbers, etc., to reduce the pollution so as to reduce the tax. > > If spending $1 million gets you from, let's say, 15,000 tons of > > pollutant down to 1,100 tons (per unit time), but it takes another > > $100,000,000 to reduce it from 1100 to 1000 tons, then you spend the > > $1 million and you don't end up wasing $99 million for a very small > > reduction in the pollutant. This is better than an arbitrary ceiling > > of 1000 tons in this case. If you find that the pollution is still to > > high, you raise the tax periodically until you achieve a reasonable > > result. The same idea can be used for a carbon tax. What happens to > > the collected tax is another matter, of course, but it could be used > > to reduce all other taxes and it would still reduce CO2 emissions. > > Ah yes, taxes. Like the cigarette tax that keeps getting higher and > higher. A few people quit smoking, but others begin smoking. Government > collects the taxes. There is an outcry from the "poor", so the government > provides more social benefits for them. That group then has more money to > buy cigarettes. > As usual, more taxes just means another government employee. Eventually, > everyone can be employed by the government and the elves will produce all > the food and manufacture all the things we like to play with during our > spare time. :-^) Cigarette smoking is an unusual case as it is addicitve. I personally know of someone who claimed he quit because it was too expensive. Not all poor people smoke. I doubt any cries from the poor being poorer due to smoking result in additional gov't benefits that come close to the cost of smoking. Hey, two of the space shuttles blew up! I guess that means rockets don't work. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 10:23:19 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: <1174152199.722502.159030@l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Mar 16, 11:29 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > That won't necessarily help much David. > > We have one right next door under Lake Taupo Darn, it sounded like a good excuse for a visit, though! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 10:34:30 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: <1174152870.402157.79410@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 16, 3:32 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > dav...@montagar.com wrote: > > That's nuts. So, where does this "tax" go? It sure doesn't make the > > oil any more or less polluting. Maybe it will go in investments in > > other energy? Nah, legislators will pipe it into their own pet > > projects and pork barrel plans > > Actually, it doesn't matter where the tax on fossil fuels goes. What matter is > that it is accounted, and that exports/imports are levied that tax at a standard > rate (percentage of current price for barrel of oil for instance). Okay, so exactly how do you get some of these "polluting" nations, such as the coal-based Chinese to agree to tax their goods for the benefit of Canadian "carbon tax"? Since China is a developing country, the WTO will slap that down faster than anything. Good luck getting that through. But still, you haven't answered the question: Where Does This Tax Go? Since everything is takes some amount of energy to produce, all you've done is raise the price of everything - and you now have the status quo, which higher prices and wages. The net effect is that the government is being given money to squander in order to manage nothing at the expense of the citizenry - and to boot, it will probably hurt those most unable to accomidate it (i.e. Al Gore certainly isn't lowering his standard of living, though YOU are supposed to). You're idea sounds almost like the Monty Python sketch where Graham Chapman's character said "I think we should tax all foreigners living abroad", and makes about as much sense. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 10:46:29 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: <1174153589.515027.244710@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 16, 8:21 pm, "AEF" wrote: > On Mar 16, 10:43 am, dav...@montagar.com wrote: > > > On Mar 15, 3:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > > What is really needed is a per capita CO2 emission target adjusted for latitude > > > (to take into account heating costs for survival in winter). And you also need > > > a "fossil fuel added tax" similar to a VAT to help for fair accounting. > > > That's nuts. So, where does this "tax" go? It sure doesn't make the > > oil any more or less polluting. Maybe it will go in investments in > > No, but by making use of oil more expensive it encourages people to > use less of it, which reduces the total pollution. I remember learning > about this in college: the method of taxing pollution. Pollution (toxic chemicals) is what the course was about, I'd bet, not CO2 as a pollutant. Otherwise, you've probably only recently graduated and haven't learned that academic theory and real life aren't always the same thing. Very few energy sources we current use don't produce CO2, those that don't often have other hazards or problems. By "taxing" CO2 production, you basically raise the price of everything, and you have the status quo with a different pricing tier. And none of you guys want to answer the question: Where does this tax money go? It's going into SOMEONE's pocket, and I doubt it's going to be into one that's going to do anything about the problem - since that would disrupt their new-found income stream. > Do you have a suggestion that is immune to abuse? Supply and Demand. Sell something to someone that they want, that can be made marketable. For instance, insulation and such is a godo business around here in Texas (it get's a little hot). Why? Because is saves you money. Yeah, it has the nice side effect of "saving the planet", but that's not why most people do it - it's because it make economic sense. I tell you, when I can replace my shingles on my house with effective solar-cell's that let me house generate it's own power for the A/C during the day, I'm all for it. I'm all for alternative energies, but it has to work, or it's not that alternatice. Like I've said before, I believe in getting rid of fossil fuels, because it's not replaceable. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 07:08:57 -0700 From: "Don.Zong@gmail.com" Subject: cluster upgrade stratedy Message-ID: <1174140537.519965.59080@l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Hi, We are thinking upgrade our 3-nodes cluster openvms 8.2-1 itanium to openvms 8.3. Right now every node boots off the the same system disk which is on eva3000. The upgrade approach we are trying to do 1. clone a system disk say disk B 2. let node A,B boot from the original system disk 3. let node C boot from disk B ( change logicals for some common files ie uaf , so node C use the same file as node A, B does) 4. upgrade node C 5. testing on node C 6. if everything is fine, let node A, B boot from disk B 7. after a couple of months, if everything is ok remove the original system from cluster. 8. done Wondering if anything I've overlooked ? Any suggestions? comments? Thanks Don ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:18:58 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: <5e2f6$45fbceb8$cef8887a$24313@TEKSAVVY.COM> n.rieck@sympatico.ca wrote: > New Lexicals: > F$CUNITS > F$MATCH_WILD Beware that because they are not backporting those to the current VAX-VMS version, you need to exercise caution in using those new lexicals in your DCL if it is shared DCL with VAX systems. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 05:09:51 -0700 From: "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: <1174133391.403489.149340@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 7:15 am, "n.ri...@sympatico.ca" wrote: > Folks, > Oops. I forgot to mention: $BACKUP/ENCRYPT In the past 5 years, a single Canadian bank has twice announced that customer data may be compromised because a courier has lost the off- site backup tape. Encrypted backups are one way to address this problem. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 12:29:12 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" wrote in news:1174130147.045380.34290@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > p.s. I think I'll upgrade to OpenVMS 8.3 ASAP. The presentation was by Guy Peleg in HP's Brussels offices. I posted a link to the presentations earlier. You're not the only one that wants to move to 8.3 after seeing the details. The direct link to a list of the presentations is http://deathrow.vistech.net Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 13:23:15 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: Paul Sture wrote in news:paul.sture.nospam-0DC806.14082217032007@mac.sture.ch: > In article , > Doc wrote: > >> "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" wrote in >> news:1174130147.045380.34290@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >> >> >> >> > p.s. I think I'll upgrade to OpenVMS 8.3 ASAP. >> >> The presentation was by Guy Peleg in HP's Brussels offices. I posted >> a link to the presentations earlier. >> >> You're not the only one that wants to move to 8.3 after seeing the >> details. >> >> The direct link to a list of the presentations is >> http://deathrow.vistech.net >> >> > > www.openvms.org appears to be struggling under a lot of load at the > moment, possibly due to downloads of these presentations. > > If you find that so, please try http://deathrow.vistech.net instead. The presentations aren't hosted on OpenVMS.org, just on Deathrow. HP- Interex Belgium will eventually get additional copies up, and those of us who attended will be notified where they are. So far I'm counting over 100 downloads of these (per file, not spread across the 4), we're not having any problems with that, CPU load on the systems is minimal. The presentation was to a packed lecture room, and nobody complained when it overran. If Guy does this presentation elsewhere I recommend trying to attend. If you can't, download the presentation material. The page on OpenVMS.org shows up an advert for BRUDEN-OSSG alongside the article, and the "World Hunger" document is an intelligent program to mentor people up to a level where they're useful OpenVMS staff. Having been given permission to share these documents I feel I should encourage people to visit Bruden's website and see what services they offer, they know what they're talking about. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:08:22 +0100 From: Paul Sture Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: In article , Doc wrote: > "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" wrote in > news:1174130147.045380.34290@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > > > > p.s. I think I'll upgrade to OpenVMS 8.3 ASAP. > > The presentation was by Guy Peleg in HP's Brussels offices. I posted a > link to the presentations earlier. > > You're not the only one that wants to move to 8.3 after seeing the details. > > The direct link to a list of the presentations is > http://deathrow.vistech.net > > www.openvms.org appears to be struggling under a lot of load at the moment, possibly due to downloads of these presentations. If you find that so, please try http://deathrow.vistech.net instead. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:24:49 -0700 From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: n.rieck@sympatico.ca wrote: > Folks, > LIB$CRC (can speed up tape backups by 50% by reducing CPU overhead) > New features in $BACKUP: > $BACKUP/REPAIR can repair ftp-induced-saveset-corruption > $BACKUP/DATA_FORMAT=COMPRESSED allows for ZLIB compressed backups > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > BACKUP/DATA_FORMAT=COMPRESSED works but isn't in the online help. /REPAIR is also not in the help so I'm not sure what it's supposed to do. Jeff Coffield ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:36:33 -0400 From: "Richard B. gilbert" Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: <45FBFCF1.3080000@comcast.net> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > n.rieck@sympatico.ca wrote: > >> Folks, > > >> LIB$CRC (can speed up tape backups by 50% by reducing CPU overhead) >> New features in $BACKUP: >> $BACKUP/REPAIR can repair ftp-induced-saveset-corruption >> $BACKUP/DATA_FORMAT=COMPRESSED allows for ZLIB compressed backups >> > >> Neil Rieck >> Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, >> Ontario, Canada. >> http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ >> > > BACKUP/DATA_FORMAT=COMPRESSED works but isn't in the online help. > /REPAIR is also not in the help so I'm not sure what it's supposed to do. > > Jeff Coffield FTP can generally NOT be relied upon to transfer VMS file attributes! That means that the file received at the destination will not have the correct block size or record size. /REPAIR is intended to read the first few blocks of the mangled file to find the correct record size and block size. There is been a little C program called FIXBACKUP that has been around for many years that does the same thing. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 10:09:26 -0700 From: "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: <1174151366.100615.178960@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 8:29 am, Doc wrote: > "n.ri...@sympatico.ca" wrote innews:1174130147.045380.34290@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > > > The presentation was by Guy Peleg in HP's Brussels offices. I posted a > link to the presentations earlier. > > You're not the only one that wants to move to 8.3 after seeing the details. > Here is a link to a related Bruden presentation given by Bruce Ellis in Toronto http://www.encompasscanada.com/documents/sem-tor07/tor07%20Ellis_Integrity_server_perf.pdf Be sure to check slides 36-38. Wow! Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 05:21:44 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: <1174134103.980065.8350@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 5:30 am, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > I can't recall anything similar in the last 25 years of > comp.os.vms/Info-Vax. > > Bob@Instantwhip, I can hardly believe you actually > work with computers. You are a religious fanatic > (and you probably can't see that), but please keep > your extremist drivel out of comp.os.vms; there > are any number of other forums/newsgroups where you > and your like can congregate. > > Now if you really want debate, feel free to come > over to the JREF forums: > > http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4 I will not shut up when I am attacked ... I didn't start it and when challenged I will not back down ... where are you Mr thought police when Bush is constantly slammed here along with other conservative principles ... just like a liberal ... challenge them with facts and they try to shut you up! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 05:27:16 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: <1174134436.835977.211440@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 5:30 am, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > I can't recall anything similar in the last 25 years of > comp.os.vms/Info-Vax. > > Bob@Instantwhip, I can hardly believe you actually > work with computers. You are a religious fanatic > (and you probably can't see that), but please keep > your extremist drivel out of comp.os.vms; there > are any number of other forums/newsgroups where you > and your like can congregate. > > Now if you really want debate, feel free to come > over to the JREF forums: > > http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4 and I am not what you call a religious fanatic but what you call a Christian ... and I am not a phony one like you and others here profess to be ... but you being from Europe do not understand what a real Christian is ... your churches in EU land are dead, just like you are ... I am just quoting the bible and presenting facts ... the problem is you can't deal with it because it makes you uncomfortable ... if you don't like my responses, DO NOT READ THEM! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:27:26 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: <00A64BF6.8EA2BFAE@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "R.A.Omond" writes: > > >I can't recall anything similar in the last 25 years of >comp.os.vms/Info-Vax. > >Bob@Instantwhip, I can hardly believe you actually >work with computers. You are a religious fanatic >(and you probably can't see that), but please keep >your extremist drivel out of comp.os.vms; there >are any number of other forums/newsgroups where you >and your like can congregate. Hallelujah! And an amen to that brother Roy! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:48:49 +0100 From: Paul Sture Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: In article <1174134436.835977.211440@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > but you being from Europe do not understand what a real > Christian is ... your churches in EU land are dead, just > like you are ... Bob, You have completely overstepped the line of common decency there. Now shut up. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 07:35:35 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: <1174142135.708688.18700@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 9:02 am, "Richard B. gilbert" wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > > OK. But what about the TECO vs TPU religious discussions ? are those > > banned too ? -) :-) :-) :-) :-) > > What about EDT? > > EDT forever!!!!! Long live EDT!!!!! AEF ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 14:43:43 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: bob@instantwhip.com wrote in news:1174134103.980065.8350 @n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > I will not shut up when I am attacked ... I didn't start it and > when challenged I will not back down ... Then you are inviting ridicule, keep your beliefs private and people will not challenge them. They might be prevalent in the Bible Belt of the US, but the first place that springs to mind as being as religiously backward on this side of the pond is Turkey. If you're like them and believe a ball will fall at 10m/s because God wills it, then please, keep this to yourself. > where are you Mr thought police when Bush is constantly slammed > here along with other conservative principles ... I might have known you were a supporter of the "Leader of the free World". I don't care what or where his qualifications are or are from, I think he's a cretin. He should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail for the damage he has done to the reputation of the United States. > just like a liberal ... challenge them with facts and they try to > shut you up! Facts? Were you hoping someone was in the middle of drinking something when they read that? Bob, you're a religious fundamentalist. I don't know whether that means you've got your fundament so far up your ass... Or if it means that you believe computers only work because god wills it so. As has been pointed out this is a technical newsgroup, and I'm sorry for getting hot enough under the collar to respond to your drivel. You should have some sympathy for those of us who don't hold the same warped views of the world as you. After all, in your wacked-out world we're all going to hell. Now, take your religious nonsense and cram it up your fundamentals. You are not going to convert or "save" me. If you feel that is your mission in life get a brown suit and a televangelist show on late night cable. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 2007 10:27:26 -0700 From: "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: <1174152446.393381.215850@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 8:21 am, b...@instantwhip.com wrote: > On Mar 17, 5:30 am, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > > > I can't recall anything similar in the last 25 years of > > comp.os.vms/Info-Vax. > > > Bob@Instantwhip, I can hardly believe you actually > > work with computers. You are a religious fanatic > > (and you probably can't see that), but please keep > > your extremist drivel out of comp.os.vms; there > > are any number of other forums/newsgroups where you > > and your like can congregate. > > > Now if you really want debate, feel free to come > > over to the JREF forums: > > >http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4 > > I will not shut up when I am attacked ... I didn't start it and > when challenged I will not back down ... > > where are you Mr thought police when Bush is constantly slammed > here along with other conservative principles ... > > just like a liberal ... challenge them with facts and they try to > shut you up! Jesus Christ was the biggest liberal of his time: 1) hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors 2) argued with dogmatics in the church 3) refused to stop healing on the Sabath Then shouldn't Christians be more liberal? Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:29:42 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Power Consumption Message-ID: In article , Paul Sture writes: > > We have a standard, it's called 120V AC (in the US). :-) > > And 220/240V AC in other parts of the world. Most of the world, perhaps. I think Japan has two standards on either side of a chain of mountains. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:49:29 +0100 From: Paul Sture Subject: Re: Power Consumption Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article , Paul > Sture writes: > > > > We have a standard, it's called 120V AC (in the US). :-) > > > > And 220/240V AC in other parts of the world. > > Most of the world, perhaps. I think Japan has two standards on either > side of a chain of mountains. I didn't know that. Is it simply historical? I do recall visiting a friend in France (20 or more years ago) and finding that they had 2 voltages in their apartment - they had a transformer for their vacuum cleaner so that they could clean everywhere without needing extension cables. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.152 ************************