INFO-VAX Sat, 28 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 232 Contents: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: Extending DCL?!? Re: Guidelines for converting programs to ODS-5? Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Microvax II Disgnostics Re: Neocons destroying America NNTP access to Notes Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory VMS on a Multia--disk images? Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Re: [OT] If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: [OT] If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:04:02 GMT From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.treapxtttte90l@hyrrokkin... > On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:39:38 -0700, Michael D. Ober > wrote: > >> >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> news:op.trc7mhxatte90l@hyrrokkin... >>>>>> Actually, no. Many times you allocate memory but don't really know >>>>>> when >>>>>> the >>>>>> last reference to it is released. This happens when a routine >>>>>> allocates >>>>>> memory and then returns that memory as part of it's result. >>>>> >>>>> Why can't the caller free the memory? >>>> >>>> What happens when the caller allocates memory for a node in a b-tree >>>> and >>>> then adds the node to the b-tree? This is a very, very simple example >>>> of >>>> why memory management without a garbage collector is prone to leaks and >>>> dangling pointers. >>> >>> I give, what happens and why? >>>> >>>> Mike. >>>> >> >> Very simply the code that allocates the node doesn't control when it will >> get used. If during processing of the tree, a reference to the node is >> created and handled by a different thread but the primary thread (the one >> processing the tree) deletes the node from the tree and then deallocates >> the >> memory, the second thread that is handling the actual node processing >> will >> either crash or have to handle a dangling pointer situation (the original >> node is gone and possible overwritten). Before you say this doesn't >> happen, >> it does. I have a program that for performance reasons has split the >> actual >> node processing apart from the node creation. The node creator creates >> nodes about 10 times as fast as they can be processed and puts them in a >> queue to be processed by another thread. I did this because there is a >> limited time window in which to gather the information required for the >> data >> collection, but the processing of the data can take as long as required. >> On >> top of this, there is a final pass that cleans up the target data area >> and >> it depends on the existence of the nodes created during data gathering. >> Thus there are two threads, running asynchronously that require the >> nodes be >> available. The order of node handling is non-deterministic, making it >> extremely difficult to predict when a node is no longer required. >> Having a >> Garbage Collector is the only real way to do this without cluttering the >> program with memory management code. > > But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? > Otherwise > how do you know when to run the garbage collector? > The GC runs whenever a memory allocation fails for insufficient memory. When it runs, it identifies all objects in memory that can be accessed directly or indirectly from the stacks and global data spaces (or in the case of a reference counting system, have a non-zero reference count) as well as all the pointers to those objects. The GC then moves the objects to the beginning of the heap, updating the pointers to the objects as it does so. At the end of the compaction, the memory allocation is then retried. If it fails this time, you must either call the OS to allocate more memory to the process, or return a failure to the calling program. Note that this is a very simple description of what happens during a GC pass and modern GC algorithms are far more sophisticated, but they all do essentially what I have just described. With a GC, you never have to explicitly free memory - you simply remove any references to objects when you are done with them. The downside of a GC is that you cannot deterministically predict program latency. The upside is that for the vast majority of applications, unpredictable program latency isn't an issue and the GC allows the programmer to focus on the problem being solved instead of dealing with heap memory management. Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 05:43:57 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: Michael D. Ober wrote: ... > The GC runs whenever a memory allocation fails for insufficient memory. That is often a sub-optimal strategy: a flexible GC can instead run in the background proactively and incrementally doing its job - that way, while latency may still not be completely deterministic (e.g., if the background scan falls behind and an allocation must wait for the GC to run), allocations are *usually* unaffected by garbage collection and almost *never* have to wait for a *full* GC scan. > When it runs, it identifies all objects in memory that can be accessed > directly or indirectly from the stacks and global data spaces (or in the > case of a reference counting system, have a non-zero reference count) as > well as all the pointers to those objects. The GC then moves the objects to > the beginning of the heap, updating the pointers to the objects as it does > so. Ah - so you are familiar with reference-counting after all: your earlier statements to the effect that "a GC is the only way to go since it determines when the memory is no longer acessible by the program" suggested otherwise. Use of reference counting to deallocate (e.g., in its destructor) an object when no one retains any interest in it is a perfectly good alternative to the kind of GC that you describe, at least in solving the specific problem of determining when an object is no longer accessible by other parts of the program that you claimed in your quoted statement above general-purpose GC was *required* to solve. It does depend upon proper maintenance of the reference counts (see also Arne's example elsewhere of an otherwise-isolated reference loop), and doesn't defragment the heap (segregating allocation areas by type/size can help a lot there, though - and can significantly speed up allocation and even construction/destruction in the process), but then it also doesn't have anything like the complexity of more powerful GC, either (which itself requires at least the discipline on the part of the programmer not to perform explicit allocations outside the scope of the GC that interact in any way with GC-controlled memory). As a confirmed programming Neanderthal, I tend to use C as a better assembler and C++ as an even better one: one can write object-oriented code in all three, after all (see the Linux kernel for copious examples). If I were going to use a GC I think I'd want it to incorporate use of scannable indirect descriptors for *every* allocation, such that it could be absolutely sure of what it was doing (rather than attempting to infer what *might* be a pointer from examination of the stack, for example - a process that I'd expect might be even more prone to memory leaks than a good programmer is). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:07:39 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:04:02 -0700, Michael D. Ober wrote: > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.treapxtttte90l@hyrrokkin... >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:39:38 -0700, Michael D. Ober >> wrote: >> >>> >>> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >>> news:op.trc7mhxatte90l@hyrrokkin... >>>>>>> Actually, no. Many times you allocate memory but don't really know >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> last reference to it is released. This happens when a routine >>>>>>> allocates >>>>>>> memory and then returns that memory as part of it's result. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why can't the caller free the memory? >>>>> >>>>> What happens when the caller allocates memory for a node in a b-tree >>>>> and >>>>> then adds the node to the b-tree? This is a very, very simple >>>>> example >>>>> of >>>>> why memory management without a garbage collector is prone to leaks >>>>> and >>>>> dangling pointers. >>>> >>>> I give, what happens and why? >>>>> >>>>> Mike. >>>>> >>> >>> Very simply the code that allocates the node doesn't control when it >>> will >>> get used. If during processing of the tree, a reference to the node is >>> created and handled by a different thread but the primary thread (the >>> one >>> processing the tree) deletes the node from the tree and then >>> deallocates >>> the >>> memory, the second thread that is handling the actual node processing >>> will >>> either crash or have to handle a dangling pointer situation (the >>> original >>> node is gone and possible overwritten). Before you say this doesn't >>> happen, >>> it does. I have a program that for performance reasons has split the >>> actual >>> node processing apart from the node creation. The node creator creates >>> nodes about 10 times as fast as they can be processed and puts them in >>> a >>> queue to be processed by another thread. I did this because there is a >>> limited time window in which to gather the information required for the >>> data >>> collection, but the processing of the data can take as long as >>> required. >>> On >>> top of this, there is a final pass that cleans up the target data area >>> and >>> it depends on the existence of the nodes created during data gathering. >>> Thus there are two threads, running asynchronously that require the >>> nodes be >>> available. The order of node handling is non-deterministic, making it >>> extremely difficult to predict when a node is no longer required. >>> Having a >>> Garbage Collector is the only real way to do this without cluttering >>> the >>> program with memory management code. >> >> But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? >> Otherwise >> how do you know when to run the garbage collector? >> > > The GC runs whenever a memory allocation fails for insufficient memory. > When it runs, it identifies all objects in memory that can be accessed > directly or indirectly from the stacks and global data spaces (or in the > case of a reference counting system, have a non-zero reference count) as > well as all the pointers to those objects. The GC then moves the > objects to > the beginning of the heap, updating the pointers to the objects as it > does > so. At the end of the compaction, the memory allocation is then retried. > If it fails this time, you must either call the OS to allocate more > memory > to the process, or return a failure to the calling program. Note that > this > is a very simple description of what happens during a GC pass and modern > GC > algorithms are far more sophisticated, but they all do essentially what I > have just described. With a GC, you never have to explicitly free > memory - > you simply remove any references to objects when you are done with them. > The downside of a GC is that you cannot deterministically predict program > latency. The upside is that for the vast majority of applications, > unpredictable program latency isn't an issue and the GC allows the > programmer to focus on the problem being solved instead of dealing with > heap > memory management. You didn't answer my first question, which was... But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? > > Mike. > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:54:38 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Subject: Re: Extending DCL?!? Message-ID: <87ejm4wyz5.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> "warren sander" writes: > The Comnd% jsys was part of TOPS-20 not Tops-10. But way back in > 1984 or 1985 a add-in for dcl was created with some of the Comnd% > jsys functionality. It was available as part of the 'Integration > program office' set of software. I know it's out there someplace > probably on an old decus tape. The nearest on VMS is in Kermit. Pity, as the DCLtables, message files and the rest just beg for a proper overerlaying integration. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 15:00:11 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Guidelines for converting programs to ODS-5? Message-ID: In article , wb8tyw@qsl.network (John E. Malmberg) wrote: > In article <45D10D9A.48AB8E09@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera writes: > > > JF Mezei wrote: > >> > >> >> For adding ODS-5 feature access from a program, I've conditionally > >> >> compiled my RMS code for VAX vs. other, using NAM vs. NAML. > >> > >> Note that an Alpha can have access to ODS2 disks as well. So an alpha > >> executable shouldn't assume ODS5 for everything. > >> > >> Another reason why I keep suggesting that VMS should have a "make valid > >> file name" function (perhaps an item code in SYS$PARSE) that would ensure > >> the file name is converted to a valid form for the target disk depending > >> on > >> its structure. This way, programs could allow input of any file name, and > >> use that service to convert the file name into a valid one for the target > >> device. > > > > How do you convert it back? > > It would take a while to even come up with a list of all the popular ways to > encode a UNIX file specification into a ODS-2 legal method, and many of the > methods are one way. > > For example, if a program needs to open foo.bar.dat, a robust program could > need to look for: > > foo^.bar.dat foo_bar.dat foo.bar_dat and even > foo__46bar.dat foo.bar__46.dat > > Add in the trick of using the $ character to invert case that some > conversions > do, you have even more possibilities to search for. The last too encodings > have been used by various versions of Pathworks, Advanced Server, and SAMBA, > and are the only way that is reversible. > > > And that is with out getting UNICODE into the picture. > One method of coding is documented in Appendix C of the TCP/IP Management Guide "How NFS Converts File Names" -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:51:37 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <463328e7$0$16314$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> wrote in message news:1177591623.475424.197550@u32g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > On Apr 25, 1:51 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: >> Hello, >> [...snip...] > > there are NO second chances ... only the saints return > with Christ and rule with Him in His kingdom for 1000 > years, then the final judgement and those whose name > are not found written in the book of life are cast into the > lake of fire ... which book of revelation are you reading? > I don't know what sounds more believable: Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" or John's (not an apostle) "Revelation"? Many experts in this field believe John was writing about the end of Roman rule in Judea. NSR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 04:54:54 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <1177761294.036439.85760@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Apr 28, 3:42 am, Doc wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177696320.173356.302980@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com: > > > > > he had most of those while he was in a > > roman prison ... so the romans served their prisoners > > mushrooms? Better enroll for some history lessons > > at school there ... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation > > "Religious skeptics have typically been highly critical of Revelation, > often considering it the work of a mentally ill author. Typical in this > vein is nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll, who famously > branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[6]" > > So, if the guy that wrote Revelation was mentally ill, what state do you > need to be in to actually *believe* that claptrap? > > Doc. do you believe everything revisionist historians write? they have Christopher Columbus a murderer now but they were never there to witness any details ... and there are many historians who would love to discredit the bible as a true book of history ... Saint John was not mentally ill ... he was boiled in oil and sent to that island for testifying about Christ ... if you read his writings, you would see that ... I love how these revisionist historians can just all of the sudden have revelations (false) of their own and write a book about someone or something they know nothing about because they were not there and have nothing to back it up but assumptions ... and what happens when you assume? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 05:26:52 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <1177763212.322020.75040@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Apr 28, 7:51 am, "Neil Rieck" wrote: > wrote in message > > news:1177591623.475424.197550@u32g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > > > On Apr 25, 1:51 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: > >> Hello, > > [...snip...] > > > there are NO second chances ... only the saints return > > with Christ and rule with Him in His kingdom for 1000 > > years, then the final judgement and those whose name > > are not found written in the book of life are cast into the > > lake of fire ... which book of revelation are you reading? > > I don't know what sounds more believable: Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" or > John's (not an apostle) "Revelation"? > > Many experts in this field believe John was writing about the end of Roman > rule in Judea. > > NSR > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation > > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com everything revelation has predicted is happening RIGHT NOW under your very nose ... when John was told that these events where about the end times, the end times did not happen when the romas empire fell ... there is a company that has just came up with a tatoo (mark) that be scanned from 15 foot away and can be unique to you and store information about you which can be quickly scanned ... so the verse in revelation about the 666 mark and everyone who does not have it cannot buy or sell meant there would be a tracking system (computer) ... this is only possible now! Israel became a nation again in 1948 ... the walls of the Soviet Union came down in the late 80s and made possible the prophecy that God would bring them back to Israel out of the land of the north (Russia) and every other nation ... world filled with violence ... children disrespectful to their elders ... earthquakes in divers places and more and more of them ... how was that earthquake in southern England today Andrew? wars and rumors of wars ... Jerusalem would be a burdensome stone for the world ... also men would travel to and fro which meant all over the earth and knowledge would be increased greatly ... did the romans have cars and planes? was knowledge increasing exponentially like it is now? there is a lot more that Revelation and Daniel and Isaiah predict that has and is happening ... How could John have made up something that Daniel and Isaiah confirmed parts of thousands of years earlier? Instead of reading what others say like a mind numbed robot, why don't you read and study it and come to your own conclusions? You talk about Christians being mind numbed robots, but it looks like you have the shoe on the wrong foot ... I am not stupid ... I can read and come to conclusions on my own ... I do not need someone elses opinion who may be wrong and may have an agenda to understand something ... people who do that are afraid of finding the truth and want to accept someone elses garbage as fact to try to make themselves feel better when they know they may be wrong ... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:53:21 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > On Apr 28, 3:42 am, Doc wrote: >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177696320.173356.302980@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com: >> >> >> >>> he had most of those while he was in a >>> roman prison ... so the romans served their prisoners >>> mushrooms? Better enroll for some history lessons >>> at school there ... >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation >> >> "Religious skeptics have typically been highly critical of Revelation, >> often considering it the work of a mentally ill author. Typical in this >> vein is nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll, who famously >> branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[6]" >> >> So, if the guy that wrote Revelation was mentally ill, what state do you >> need to be in to actually *believe* that claptrap? >> >> Doc. > > do you believe everything revisionist historians write? > > they have Christopher Columbus a murderer now but > they were never there to witness any details ... > > and there are many historians who would love to > discredit the bible as a true book of history ... > > Saint John was not mentally ill ... he was boiled in > oil and sent to that island for testifying about > Christ ... if you read his writings, you would see > that ... > > I love how these revisionist historians can just > all of the sudden have revelations (false) of their > own and write a book about someone or something > they know nothing about because they were not > there and have nothing to back it up but assumptions ... > > and what happens when you assume? > Ah! But you were there to personally witness the truth of all your claims. How silly of others to have any doubts. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:33:53 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <463324be$0$16356$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> wrote in message news:1177600832.580077.191040@o40g2000prh.googlegroups.com... > >On Apr 26, 7:24 am, Neil Rieck wrote: >> [...snip...] > > Cerner has had, and has been marketing, an AIX version of their > software for ~10 years. The real issue which HP is ignoring > (apparently) is that I would expect most OpenVMS clients, if forced to > move, would clearly choose AIX over HPUX, simply because it has been > out there long enough for a history to exist. I am pretty sure > that there is still no "production-ready" version of Cerner's > Millennium product to run on HPUX (you are at liberty to decide for > yourselves what "Production-ready" means to you). > > HP seems to thing that OpenVMS loyalty translates into "HP" > loyalty. I think they are in for a shocker. > > Dave. > You are correct. And HP is still schizophrenic. At one level (management?), it is just one single company, while at another level the "HP Division" is quite different from the "Compaq Division". As an HP customer I have no idea whether these divisions physically exist in the corporation. But when I contact HP by phone it seems to take an unusual amount of time (sometimes days) to reach someone that knows something about Compaq products like OpenVMS. Don't believe me about the divisions? Check out this link: www.itrc.hp.com Maybe HP employees farther down the food chain are responsible for putting pressure on customers to switch from OpenVMS to HP-UX? Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:37:04 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article , Dave Froble wrote: >While the request seems reasonable, and I see no downside for HP, I'm >also aware that there are a 'minimum' of two sides to every story. That is true. >What your post has me questioning is how HP views VMS. Will HP now sell >a VMS related product only if someone gives them, free of charge, that >product? Tom was the one who said "it doesn't cost HP anything". That made me curious. Unwise to read any more into it than that. >Has VMS sunk so low? I normally respect your posts and >opinions, but this is a particular obscene post you have made. Ok. I'll add "free" to the list of naughty words I mustn't use here. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:51:47 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article <463324be$0$16356$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Neil Rieck" wrote: >As an HP customer I have no idea whether these divisions physically exist in >the corporation. But when I contact HP by phone it seems to take an unusual >amount of time (sometimes days) to reach someone that knows something about >Compaq products like OpenVMS. Don't believe me about the divisions? Check >out this link: >www.itrc.hp.com > >Maybe HP employees farther down the food chain are responsible for putting >pressure on customers to switch from OpenVMS to HP-UX? What about the link? What conspiracy is at work there? Are you worried because the HP products are higher on the page than the Compaq products? Would you prefer that OpenVMS were listed in the "HP Products" section? Since the links in that section point to HP-classic tools and archives (which contain little or no VMS information) it would make it a bit harder for folks to find VMS information, wouldn't it? The only common tool I see at a glance is the patch database, where VMS migrated to the HP-classic tool. The link the "Compaq" section points to the HP tool. I think the only intent here was to help customers (who generally know if their product came from HP classic or Compaq classic) find the info they are looking for without having to suddenly learn new tools and web page organization. It's widely acknowleged that Compaq and HP both had awful web pages, and HP still does. Simply dumping the two together in a big cauldron and stirring wouldn't have helped, IMHO. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:52:54 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:45:50 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message > news:59enm7F2kdk9rU1@mid.individual.net... >> >> So then, what is the reason? Tom says, "No access to GEM". Isn't that >> HP's? So, knowing it will cost them major accounts like VW and Fiat, >> what reason could they have for not pushing for an Itanium PL/I >> compiler? >> > > Is it that HP isn't "pushing" for a PL/I compiler or is it that Tom's > group wants to build one but HP is refusing them access to the GEM > technology > and they rely on that? (Did they use GEM to backend the Alpha PL/I > compiler?) yes and yes > > Have VW or Fiat ever tried saying flat out to a senior HP exec that if > they can't get a PL/I compiler for Itanium they will not be buying any > servers from HP, PERIOD! Well, I have email that states that > > (sorry folks, it's hard to read between all the lines here) > > OT: On the other hand I had a call today from an HP inside sales > rep who asked what kind of servers we had - I replied Alphas and > Itaniums, all of them from HP. She then proceeded to try to sell > me on a blade server solution. Having heard talk about VMS possibly > being offered on an Itanium blade I said "sure, send me the information". > When it arrived it was all about a XEON based server! > > If HP can't train their sales reps to understand the different kinds > of servers HP sells and what markets they are appropriate for they > probably can't comprehend that a PL/I compiler is a valuable tool ( what > part of the MSOffice suite was that again? ) > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:23:09 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <46335a79$0$16360$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Robert Deininger" wrote in message news:rdeininger-2804070851450001@dialup-4.233.149.207.dial1.manchester1.level3.net... > In article <463324be$0$16356$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Neil Rieck" > wrote: > > [...snip...] > >>www.itrc.hp.com > > What about the link? What conspiracy is at work there? > > Are you worried because the HP products are higher on the page than the > Compaq products? > No not at all. But I think the time has come for all HP employees to announce that "OpenVMS" is an "HP Product" rather than a "Compaq Product". I know Carly billed the original alliance as a merger but the resulting company's name is HP. So they should get rid of the Compaq name. Until this happens, HP Sales people should not be allowed to poach business from Compaq sales people. In fact, no commission should be paid to an HP Sales person if the HP Sale results in a Compaq loss because they are effectively moving money from the front pocket to the back one (pun intended) which would result in no financial gain for HP. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 04:21:47 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: <54-dnXCqY5i8ma7bnZ2dnUVZ_tKjnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> Robert Deininger wrote: > In article <59eoo3F2kdk9rU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu wrote: > >> WHy, precisely, is PL/I not being ported to Itanium VMS? Too much >> work? No percieved return on investment? Technically impossible? >> (The last one only added for completeness, I know that isn't the case!) > > I think it's safe to say the precise reasons aren't amenable to a > discussion in a public forum. Interesting. In one sense, complete silence on HP's part is at least a bit less unethical than misleading or provably-dishonest spin, but it still leaves a great many questions about what HP's *real* attitude toward VMS may be (and a lot of - well, at least still *some* - customers who therefore need to fill in the blanks for themselves to evaluate VMS's viability for their purposes). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:22:00 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Microvax II Disgnostics Message-ID: In article <07042715123104_202002DA@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: "P. Sture" > > > The VAXstation/server 2000 had a console command for formatting RD5* > > disks :- > > > > TEST nn > > > > (where I have forgotten the value of nn, but it was well documented). > > Pay closer attention: Mea culpa. > Return-Path: Info-VAX-Request@mvb.saic.com > Received: from mvb.saic.com (198.151.12.104) > by alp.antinode.org (V5.4-15G, OpenVMS V7.3-2 Alpha); > Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:20:21 -0500 (CDT) > From: sms@antinode-org (Steven M. Schweda) > > [...] > For the record, the firmware ("TEST 70") in a working MicroVAX 2000 > or VAXstation 2000 is the other popular tool for formatting these > drives. > [...] > > RD%% and RX%%, not just RD5%. For additional info, consider: > > http://antinode.org/dec/vs2000_diag.html > > and nearby items. (There was a VAX_server_ 2000?) I believe there was a VAX_server_ 2000. How do I know? I took my VAXstation to my friendly local hardware folks when after they'd replaced the RD54 for me I could read tapes but not write to them. That turned out to be a cable which had been replaced the wrong way around, but to test the system without lugging a monitor from elsewhere in the building they used a 4 (?) port serial device plugged into the back of the system. On booting, VMS reported that the licenses were insufficient for the system. > I'm still looking for an incredible bargain on a 12MB memory board > (or two) for mine, by the way. (Trade for a VT100 advanced video card?) > Sorry, I don't have any spares myself. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 04:29:22 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: Glenn Everhart wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> In article , Dirk Munk >> writes: >> >>> No wonder. Rumsfeld & Cheney c.s. do know how to destroy things with >> >> Please do not feed off-topic posts. > What makes you think George Bush is a conservative? Since the word 'conservative' does not appear in the immediately-preceding three posts in this sub-thread, I'm wondering whether this was a subtle attempt at off-sub-topic irony on your part. But indeed, Dubya is nothing remotely resembling a traditional conservative: 'neo'-conservatives have given traditional conservatives an undeserved black eye (and stomach pains to boot in many cases). - bill ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 16:12:09 GMT From: Doc Subject: NNTP access to Notes Message-ID: Thanks to some clever work by Graham Burley the Notes system on Deathrow can now be accessed with a news client. Telnet or SSH to deathrow.vistech.net and use user NEWUSER/NEWUSER if you don't have an account. (You'll also need to log in after and reset the generated password). Once you've done that you can point your newsreader at gein.vistech.net and read notes like news. If you have an offline news reader and some search tool like Google Desktop you can mine a lot of information out of this. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 09:38:36 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Message-ID: <1177778316.681811.323110@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Apr 26, 8:39 pm, Jeff Cameron wrote: > Another question from the Roaming Paleocybernetic Administrator, > > Now that I have my memory pool problems behind me, I have another task to > which I need to solicit the help from all of you wonderful folks with > PDP-11/RSX experience. > > I have a task to write a program to make small changes to a binary table > stored in an RMS fixed record, sequential access file on a PDP-11 Running > RSX-11M-Plus V4.6. The available languages are Macro-11 and FORTRAN 77 (I > choose the latter). If I were on a VMS system, I would use the $CRMPSC > System Service to map the file into my programs memory space. I believe > there is a similar service in RSX, but I cannot seem to find it in the > documentation. > > Does anyone have a FORTRAN example of doing this in RSX, or if not can > anyone point me to the location of the documentation for the equivalent > system service in RSX. > If necessary, I can do direct reads and writes, but I would prefer not to. > > Thanks in Advance > Jeff Cameron Jeff, I would agree with Hein, just use the ZAP tool in absolute mode. It should work fine. If that solution is not good enough, I would use QIO to read the block for modification, modify the data, and the re-write the block. If it is merely a sequential file and composed of printable characters, you could also always merely EDIT the file. What is the format and what are the restrictions? I DID NOT throw away my doc sets, and I am one of the few people who purchased the microfiche manuals for the RSX series. If I can be of assistance, please let me know. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 23:17:30 -0700 From: John Subject: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: <1177741050.602813.200040@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> I've got a Multia sitting here, not being used, and I'd like to run VMS on it. I can find a SCSI disk that'll work (it came without drives), but I think that's about the limit of hardware I'm going to come up with. I thought the best, simplest thing to do would be to find somebody who had a hard disk image for a Multia that I could simply copy over to my hard drive. I realize that this image could only come from somebody who has just a basic VMS installation, without potentially sensitive information, so it's kind of a far out request, but do any of you have this kind of thing around? I'd try installing "the hard way", except that I can't seem to find the correct firmware version (I need 3.8-2, right?), I don't have a CD- ROM drive... etc. I'm going to have to hack up the one additional power cable anyway or attach another power supply outside the box just so I can run my hard drive. If you know a better way, please let me know. Thanks John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:03:34 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: <46330dd0$0$31518$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> You'll find the Multia firmware which is needed for running VMS on a Multia on the VMS Freeware 5.0 CD's or on the 'net at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware50/multia/ There are also installation instructions. I have managed to install VMS V7.2 out-of-the-box and upgrade to V7.3-2 with some tweaking. It runs fine but slow, as anyone can imagine. If you plan to use DECwindows, it's best to install at least 128MB of RAM or if you can find 64MB SIMM's, use them. Don't put a very new disk drive inside the box or you run into trouble with overheating. The original < 1GB disks drives don't produce too much heat, but a 72GB 15k drive will melt the box. A very nice storage solution for Multia is a BA353 (the pizzabox with a CD drive, one or two disk drives and possibly a (DAT) tape drive. All the 1.6" StorageWorks SBB's will fit into the BA353. You can find a BA353 on Ebay for $10 or less. If you are lucky, it is fully equipped. I think it would be the best solution to get a bootable installation-CD, which has the Multia-specific drivers included. I might be able to build one and send it to you. Kari John wrote: > I've got a Multia sitting here, not being used, and I'd like to run > VMS on it. I can find a SCSI disk that'll work (it came without > drives), but I think that's about the limit of hardware I'm going to > come up with. I thought the best, simplest thing to do would be to > find somebody who had a hard disk image for a Multia that I could > simply copy over to my hard drive. I realize that this image could > only come from somebody who has just a basic VMS installation, without > potentially sensitive information, so it's kind of a far out request, > but do any of you have this kind of thing around? > > I'd try installing "the hard way", except that I can't seem to find > the correct firmware version (I need 3.8-2, right?), I don't have a CD- > ROM drive... etc. I'm going to have to hack up the one additional > power cable anyway or attach another power supply outside the box just > so I can run my hard drive. If you know a better way, please let me > know. > > Thanks > > > John > ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 07:42:28 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: [OT] If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177696320.173356.302980@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com: > he had most of those while he was in a > roman prison ... so the romans served their prisoners > mushrooms? Better enroll for some history lessons > at school there ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation "Religious skeptics have typically been highly critical of Revelation, often considering it the work of a mentally ill author. Typical in this vein is nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll, who famously branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[6]" So, if the guy that wrote Revelation was mentally ill, what state do you need to be in to actually *believe* that claptrap? Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 2007 13:26:37 GMT From: Brian Subject: Re: [OT] If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177763212.322020.75040@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com: > how was that earthquake in southern England today > Andrew? You were debunked on that one, there are not more earthquakes than in the past. Same as the events in Revelations are not happening, and the men with the padded van - regrettably - aren't coming to lock you up because you're nuttier than trail mix. Or can you actually produce something based on fact to prove that assertion? Doc. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.232 ************************