INFO-VAX Fri, 22 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 337 Contents: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com a Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1) Re: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1) Re: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1) Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: Infiniband Re: Infiniband Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Mac OS Re: Mac OS Re: Mac OS Re: Mac OS Re: Mac OS (was: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option) Re: Mac OS (was: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option) Re: NFS Startup error ? Re: NFS Startup error ? Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: Oracle Installation Failure After Installation of VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 Patch Re: PDP11 / RSX-11M manuals available Re: Why is SMTP still relevant? Re: Why is SMTP still relevant? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:16:03 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: <12435$467aea87$cef899e2$2413@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> JF Mezei wrote: > Ken Robinson wrote: > >> Posted with no comment.... > > Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments > about this ? > > Ann Livermore: > ## > In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our > installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when > they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP > platform. ## > > This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being > a glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. > > If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to > kill VMS, I don't know what it. As good as VMS is, as much as we like it and want the market for it to be grown, with pronouncements like that how does any reasonably sane ISV decide that this is a market where they should invest their time/money? And as we all know, applications sell systems. It's time the HP apologists realize that they are playing Lucy in football season to the customer's Charlie Brown. Or put more bluntly, HP has an endless supply of anal lube for those gullible enough. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:14:27 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > I know of few VMS sites that are not actively engaged in deserting VMS - > they have no choice and they know it. It is just a matter of planning and > execution. Most seem to be going "anywhere but HP", but the ink salesmen > couldn't care less I guess. They certainly treat the customers that way. Not unlike the Great 36-Bit Migration(TM) following the 1983 cancellation of the Jupiter project (the next PDP-10 from DEC, called the "DECSYSTEM-2080" and later the "DECSYSTEM-4050"). There were hundreds of people who decided that if they had to move off the -10 architecture, they might as well move off Digital hardware altogether. Y'all have my sympathy. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:18:56 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: <2d300$467aeb34$cef899e2$2597@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> AEF wrote: > On Jun 20, 8:47 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:45:09 -0700, David J Dachtera >>> wrote: >> >>>>> [snip] Can >>>>> you think of any other business that operates in this fashion? >>>>> Government? >> >>> You missed the point, a company has two products, A has 20% margins >>> and sells 100 units >>> B has 10% margin and sells 500 units. >> >> Actually, I think it's more like: >> >> A - 48% margin, 1,000 units >> >> B - 10% margin, 2,000,000 units > > Now ... imagine the huge profit gains from switching even a small > percentage of B systems to A systems! AEF, Perhaps you are confusing HP with IBM, whose motto is "THINK". HP's is NIH. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV & customer base. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:49:18 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: <1182469758.869638.131470@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 8:09 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1182387477.151964.284...@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > > > On Jun 20, 8:47 pm, David J Dachtera > > wrote: > >> Tom Linden wrote: > > >> > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:45:09 -0700, David J Dachtera > >> > wrote: > > >> > >> [snip] Can > >> > >> you think of any other business that operates in this fashion? > >> > > Government? > > >> > You missed the point, a company has two products, A has 20% margins and > >> > sells 100 units > >> > B has 10% margin and sells 500 units. > > >> Actually, I think it's more like: > > >> A - 48% margin, 1,000 units > > >> B - 10% margin, 2,000,000 units > > > Now ... imagine the huge profit gains from switching even a small > > percentage of B systems to A systems! > > The only problem with trying to do that is that System A can't do > the things System B does. Oh yeah? Try defining logical names on other OSes and see what happens. :-) Hey, maybe some customers don't need those missing things. Maybe VMS has some things others don't, like recovering in 13.xx seconds after a gas explosion! Bill, you've been vindicated about Linux. It had the worse recovery time, but not much worse than Windows. HP-UX recovered significantly faster. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:02:02 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: <1182470522.438049.105880@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 5:18 pm, "John Smith" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Jun 20, 8:47 pm, David J Dachtera > > wrote: > >> Tom Linden wrote: > > >>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:45:09 -0700, David J Dachtera > >>> wrote: > > >>>>> [snip] Can > >>>>> you think of any other business that operates in this fashion? > >>>>> Government? > > >>> You missed the point, a company has two products, A has 20% margins > >>> and sells 100 units > >>> B has 10% margin and sells 500 units. > > >> Actually, I think it's more like: > > >> A - 48% margin, 1,000 units > > >> B - 10% margin, 2,000,000 units > > > Now ... imagine the huge profit gains from switching even a small > > percentage of B systems to A systems! > > AEF, > > Perhaps you are confusing HP with IBM, whose motto is "THINK". HP's is > NIH. > > -- > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV & > customer > base. Why do you say that? I said "imagine", I didn't say "expect". Don't they push their Proliant series? Where's the NIH there? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:34:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com a Message-ID: AEF wrote: > She's just saying the obvious: She wants to hold on to the customers > by making them happy. Sorry, that doesn't work in real life. She should have responded with something like: "We want to provide our customers with first quality service because it not only ensures customers stay with HP but also attracts new customers." Sorry, but Livermore's statement was an intentional message to the ISV community. She took that opportunity to insert the message that HP does not intent to grow the VMS marketplace and migrate customers from VMS when she didn't need to mention this. This was intentional. Let me ask you this: if you had your own company, and one fo your employees spoke to the press in such a way that it made you lose millions in business, wouldn't you quickly go to the media and correct this error and try to reduce the damage cause by your employee ? (and possible demote/fire/side-mote that employee. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:51:05 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <467ae4bd$0$21928$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi, > > For those of you who, after reading this thread, may be thinking that > Ann Livermore (I've got no idea who she is in HP and don't care) was > responding to a question such as "What are your feelings with regard > to the future strategic directionsof VMS?" or "How does your VMS > strategy differ from your other OS stable?" or "Just speak randonmly > on any issue for 30secs", here's the actual question she was > reponding to: - > > [That expertise and quality are the issue. Last fall I spoke with two > high-profile HP partners who are OpenVMS consultants. They were very > concerned about services being outsourced to places like China and > India, because they said the support technicians there simply don't > have the expertise that's required and aren't getting the training > they need. What's your response?] > > I read that like the reporter, and whoever he was talking to (VMS > people "In particular"), accused HP of shafting the installed base by > outsourcing support to Bangalore, Mumbai and Brisbane. So she says > something as bland as [We value the installed base enough to want to > keep them sweet so that they stick with us if and when they move > architectures.] or [Your call is important to us!] and it gets > translated in COV to [I'm sick of that grave-dodging bastard VMS! > Kill it - And kill it now!] Absolute disbelief :-( > > But whatever you do, listen to Dr. Dweeb; VMS *is* dead! (and has > been for years) Move on! So there can be absolutely *no* reason to > keep telling everybody about its death for the next days, months, > YEARS now can there? > Actually, I usually use the term "palliative care", but I was feeling particularly gloomy that evening. Even so, I, like you, have an entire career built around VMS and have seen myself forced to move to areas where jobs *actually exist* because VMS *IS* dead in the mindset of the "industry pundits", journalists and most CIOs and about 90% of people who "used" to work with VMS too it would seem. Few companies are investing in new VMS systems, its all maintenance and migration away from VMS, except for the few sites where Rdb and/or VMS is so entrenched that the cost and risk of moving outweighs all other factors. VMS's merits are irrelevant. The perception is there and has been since the Palmer days, and things have been going downhill ever since. Btw. After 6 months with SQLServer2000 I can tell you that is is one of the worst pieces of junk I have used for a long time. I am not convinced the coming upgrade will improve things very much. Oh, it has lots of cool programming bobs and knobs, but the engine is crud. But I digress. I actually have the option of moving to VMS/Rdb (or AIX/DB2 or Oracle or whatever) if that is the right choice. Technically it probably is given our requirements, but I cannot bring myself to make a VMS recommendation because the ecosystem for VMS and Rdb no longer exists and my faith in HPs stewardship is zero - no, less than zero in fact. And the handfull of guys in Rdb engineering while doing a great job, are at the mercy of the VMS ecosystem. Thera are no professional Ops people around and fewer application developers and zero new entrants in either. The VMS owners have not spent a dime on development tools for VMS for such a long time that no "modern" developer takes VMS seriously, and therefore there is no interest. It is a career dead end and this is never going to change. Sad, but true. Beyond the entrenched clients, there is nothing but boring "keep it afloat" and/or "figure out how we can trash this old fashioned crap" projects. Hardly something to cause me to go to work with any enthusiasm. If I can figure out how to view that video, I might get the board of directors to view it - so that they will know just how inferior the technology upon which their business relies actually is. Cheers Dr. Dweeb. > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Ken Robinson" wrote in message > news:7dd80f60706191324k5c0c4b9ch2ae8e4895e970946@mail.gmail.com... >> The articles are "Q&A: HP's Ann Livermore addresses company's >> services issues" > icleId=9025228&intsrc=hm_list> >> and "Hurd: HP will show users how to run IT" >> > icleId=9025227&intsrc=hm_list> >> >> Posted with no comment.... >> >> Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:28:36 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <1182464916.406550.262010@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 20, 6:13 pm, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi, > > For those of you who, after reading this thread, may be thinking that Ann > Livermore (I've got no idea who she is in HP and don't care) was responding > to a question such as "What are your feelings with regard to the future > strategic directionsof VMS?" or "How does your VMS strategy differ from your > other OS stable?" or "Just speak randonmly on any issue for 30secs", here's > the actual question she was reponding to: - > > [That expertise and quality are the issue. Last fall I spoke with two > high-profile HP partners who are OpenVMS consultants. They were very > concerned about services being outsourced to places like China and India, > because they said the support technicians there simply don't have the > expertise that's required and aren't getting the training they need. What's > your response?] > > I read that like the reporter, and whoever he was talking to (VMS people "In > particular"), accused HP of shafting the installed base by outsourcing > support to Bangalore, Mumbai and Brisbane. So she says something as bland as > [We value the installed base enough to want to keep them sweet so that they > stick with us if and when they move architectures.] or [Your call is > important to us!] and it gets translated in COV to [I'm sick of that > grave-dodging bastard VMS! Kill it - And kill it now!] Absolute disbelief > :-( > You are correct about the question; it was about support quality. Now, tell me what Ms. Livermore's statement: "We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate [from OpenVMS] to another HP platform." has to do with the question about support? A Freudian slip, maybe? The reporter didn't ask about migration. She didn't have to say anything about HP wanting OpenVMS users to migrate to some other platform. I guess she just couldn't help herself. Now, what would do find more telling: An rehearsed answer when asked if HP has long-term plans for OpenVMS, or a casual remark in a response to a completely different topic? Like- Sam: Hi, Joe. How do you like your new car? Joe: It's great, Sam. Plenty of room for the golf clubs in the trunk (boot), and your wife really likes the back seat! > But whatever you do, listen to Dr. Dweeb; VMS *is* dead! (and has been for > years) Move on! So there can be absolutely *no* reason to keep telling > everybody about its death for the next days, months, YEARS now can there? > > Cheers Richard Maher > [top posting not corrected] > "Ken Robinson" wrote in message > > news:7dd80f60706191324k5c0c4b9ch2ae8e4895e970946@mail.gmail.com...> The articles are "Q&A: HP's Ann Livermore addresses company's services > > issues" > > icleId=9025228&intsrc=hm_list>> and "Hurd: HP will show users how to run IT" > > icleId=9025227&intsrc=hm_list> > > > > > Posted with no comment.... > > > Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:14:32 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <1182471272.752095.118520@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 6:28 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Jun 20, 6:13 pm, "Richard Maher" > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > For those of you who, after reading this thread, may be thinking that Ann > > Livermore (I've got no idea who she is in HP and don't care) was responding > > to a question such as "What are your feelings with regard to the future > > strategic directionsof VMS?" or "How does your VMS strategy differ from your > > other OS stable?" or "Just speak randonmly on any issue for 30secs", here's > > the actual question she was reponding to: - > > > [That expertise and quality are the issue. Last fall I spoke with two > > high-profile HP partners who are OpenVMS consultants. They were very > > concerned about services being outsourced to places like China and India, > > because they said the support technicians there simply don't have the > > expertise that's required and aren't getting the training they need. What's > > your response?] > > > I read that like the reporter, and whoever he was talking to (VMS people "In > > particular"), accused HP of shafting the installed base by outsourcing > > support to Bangalore, Mumbai and Brisbane. So she says something as bland as > > [We value the installed base enough to want to keep them sweet so that they > > stick with us if and when they move architectures.] or [Your call is > > important to us!] and it gets translated in COV to [I'm sick of that > > grave-dodging bastard VMS! Kill it - And kill it now!] Absolute disbelief > > :-( > > You are correct about the question; it was about support quality. Now, > tell me what Ms. Livermore's statement: > > "We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when they ever want > to migrate, we want them to migrate [from OpenVMS] to another HP > platform." > > has to do with the question about support? A Freudian slip, maybe? She is answering a more general question that covers the specific question, but it is a bit of "dodgery". She said she wants the installed base to be happy. So one can conclude that that means she implying that she would want to improve support to make them happy. The remainder of the answer about if and when to migrate was partly out of left field, but still implying she wants the customers to be happy and stay with hp even if they migrate. Well, this should be obvious. Of course HP wants to retain its customers, or at least it makes sense to. Now while she may have other plans, she didn't SAY anything about killing VMS. If, as some here do, always act so cynically then what difference does it makes what she says? It will always be interpreted by the cynical in a bad way. > The reporter didn't ask about migration. She didn't have to say > anything about HP wanting OpenVMS users to migrate to some other > platform. I guess she just couldn't help herself. She's just saying the obvious: She wants to hold on to the customers by making them happy. Suppose a customer on its own wants to migrate. She'll try to win that business. And why not? That doesn't make US happy (that this hypothetical customer is migrating away from VMS), but that's beside the point. If she said that HP is going to start advertising VMS would the cynical act any differently? In which case why make all the fuss over her words? If she said instead that she would make sure to improve support would the cynical here be any happier? > > Now, what would do find more telling: An rehearsed answer when asked > if HP has long-term plans for OpenVMS, or a casual remark in a > response to a completely different topic? It's not completely different. She is saying that she wants to hold on to her customers by keeping them happy and adding an example. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:40:42 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1) Message-ID: <467AC62A.8000309@comcast.net> Chris Sharman wrote: > We've tried adding our dns server permanently (ucx set route/perm), and > temporarily (ucx route add -host). > Both work, but neither seems to have a permanent effect on the dynamic db. > The route to the dns server seems to get cleared out overnight, at which > point everything stops, because reverse lookup stops working. > > Any suggestions on what we're doing wrong please? > I probably haven't supplied enough info, so do please tell me what else > you need to know. > > Thanks > Chris A little more information should clarify things a lot. What system are you talking about: VAX/Alpha/Itanic? VMS Version ?? You should supply this information for just about any question you want to ask. TCP/IP Services version? Network configuration? This information is usually needed for any TCP/IP question. Where is your DNS server with respect to the rest of your network? Is your VMS system actually acting as a router? (Most sites use a dedicated piece of hardware, usually from Cisco Systems or Nortel.) It's been years since I've needed to do this (once per box you know) but executing SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM walks you through setting your IP address, netmask, gateway(router) address, DNS servers, etc. Also note that "SET" in UCX (a/k/a TCP/IP Services for VMS) sets the temporary configuration. SET CONFIG makes permanent changes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:00:57 GMT From: Chris Sharman Subject: Re: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1) Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Chris Sharman wrote: >> We've tried adding our dns server permanently (ucx set route/perm), >> and temporarily (ucx route add -host). >> Both work, but neither seems to have a permanent effect on the dynamic >> db. >> The route to the dns server seems to get cleared out overnight, at >> which point everything stops, because reverse lookup stops working. >> >> Any suggestions on what we're doing wrong please? >> I probably haven't supplied enough info, so do please tell me what >> else you need to know. >> >> Thanks >> Chris > > A little more information should clarify things a lot. > > What system are you talking about: VAX/Alpha/Itanic? VMS Version ?? > You should supply this information for just about any question you want > to ask. Alpha, VMS 7.3-1 > TCP/IP Services version? Network configuration? This information is > usually needed for any TCP/IP question. UCX 5.3 - not sure about patches. Net config - what commands give the relevant info? > Where is your DNS server with respect to the rest of your network? Is > your VMS system actually acting as a router? (Most sites use a > dedicated piece of hardware, usually from Cisco Systems or Nortel.) > It's been years since I've needed to do this (once per box you know) but > executing SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM walks you through setting your IP > address, netmask, gateway(router) address, DNS servers, etc. Well, the Alpha used to be the router (we were a single site UK company), then we got taken over by a US corporation, which now holds the master router(s). They're in charge of the network, our vms/network guy is no longer with us, and I'm just doing odd bits, and don't know what I'm doing with tcpip. I have tried tcpip$config, but I evidently haven't done it all right. > Also note that "SET" in UCX (a/k/a TCP/IP Services for VMS) sets the > temporary configuration. SET CONFIG makes permanent changes. except "set route/perm", I'm hoping??? There are I think 2 gateways - a right one (Cisco), and a wrong one. The workaround at present is: $ route delete -host $ route add -host where route:=$tcpip$router.exe and this gets done at 5am (BST) daily. I've done "$ tcpip set route/perm" - can't remember the exact command from here, but it shows in the permanent database as "PH". In the dynamic database it's DH, rather than AH as I (perhaps wrongly) expect. Sorry if I'm a bit vague, but if I knew what I was doing and what to look at/report, I suspect we wouldn't be having trouble. Thanks Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:05:10 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: dns woes (ucx5.3, vms 7.3-1) Message-ID: <59695$467af62b$cef8887a$32712@TEKSAVVY.COM> Chris Sharman wrote: > Chris Sharman wrote: >> We've tried adding our dns server permanently (ucx set route/perm), set route does not define the DNS resolution directly. HOWEVER, your TCPIP setup must be done such that reaching the DNS can be done without access to the dns. You would want to do the following: TCPIP>SET HOST dns.farawayplace.com 12.34.56.78 This creates the ability to locally resolve the host name of your distant DNS server. TCPIP> SET CONF NAME /SERVER=dns.farawayplace.com/DOMAIN=mydomain.com TCPIP> SET NAME/SERVER=dns.farawayplace.com/SYSTEM/DOMAIN=mydomain.com The first one sets the permanent configuration. The second one sets the running config for the system. (without /system, it affects only your process' name resolution). TCPIP> SET ROUTE/DEFAULT/GATEWAY=78.56.34.12/PERMANENT TCPIP> SET ROUTE/DEFAULT/GATEWAY=78.56.34.12 So, when you system boots, it sets up DNS resolution to the local host daabase followed by remote dns.farawayplace.com. It is able to resolve that host name because it is defined in the local hosts file. And to reach that remove DNS, it will use the default route. TCPIP is rather picky. Some settings needs SET mumble/PERMANENT and others want SET CONF mumble HELP helps a lot. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:54:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Message-ID: <99d6d$467ae5b6$cef8887a$28010@TEKSAVVY.COM> On VMS, there are two ways to use shareable images. One is more of less static linking of the executable to a shareable image, the other is dynamic linking with the use of LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL. Static linking resolves entry point addresses at the time the executable is linked. When the image is runned, it already knows where in the shareable image the routines are. There are ways to build shareable images such that the entry point do not change and thus, you can update the shareable images without having to relink your applications. The dynamic linking with LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL is totally dynamic in that the linker does no work. At run time, the program calls LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL with a file name (the shareable image) and a routine name. The LIB$ routine returns the address of the entry point for that routine. You can open as many shareable images as you wish, even if they all have the same routine names because only the address of the routines is used. So you could have a "write_image()" routine in tiff.exe, gif.exe, jpg.exe and png.exe. You can load all 4, and store the pointer to the respective "write_image" routines in an array or whatever. The code itself (loaded from the .exe) files is read only, so I am fairly sure (but someone can correct me) that if your process needs this memory, the code is just zapped (instead of written to the page file) because the system knows it can remap it against the tiff.exe file if it needs it again. In the case of true shareable images, your process may have a huge virtual space to map to them, but the physical memory is shared between processes so in the end, total memory footprint is low. That is why, for instance, a microvax II with only 16 megs of memory could support 16 users running ALLIN1 (the 1980s equivalent of MS Office). ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:16:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Message-ID: <0KIwpjMSO3SP@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , DoubleU writes: > Hi all, > > I need to port a linux application to OpenVMS v. 7.2 (7.3 ?). > > That application requires the ability to load *and* unload shared > libraries (aka. dll's). It uses the dlopen/dlclose/dlsym calls under > linux to do that. > It is possible to support these actions via other means, but it would be a lot more work. The work includes breaking down the images so there is only one entry point per image, and then you'ld have to track what collection of entry points map back to each original .dll (or more likely .sa). You might also be able to do something with $DELTVA, if you can determine the address space the image was loaded into. I'm not sure that will actually help since VMS doesn't like to unload process address space. It might be less work if you can arrange that the image doing the dlopen actually exits quite often, perhaps by repartitioning the application into multiple images that can interact as cooperating processes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:39:46 GMT From: DoubleU Subject: Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Message-ID: > What is the purpose of unloading sharable images? Is it to save memory? > If so, it really shouldn't be an issue since the images occupy virtual > memory. They may occupy real memory longer than necessary, but will > eventually be paged out. If you repeatedly load and unload the same > image repeatedly, it may be faster to leave it alone. Bump Pgflquo and > the WS* parameters for the account if necessary. Well it is that I would like to be able to replace the old library with a newer version containing the same symbol and replace all references to the symbol in the unloaded version to references to the newly loaded library ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:10:48 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Dynamically loading/unloading libraries (dll/shared libs) Message-ID: <65b51$467b139d$cef8887a$16281@TEKSAVVY.COM> DoubleU wrote: > Well it is that I would like to be able to replace the old library with a > newer version containing the same symbol and replace all references to > the symbol in the unloaded version to references to the newly loaded > library There is/was a manual containing a whoel section on building shareable images to do just that. Essentially, you build a "fixed" one that has say "write_image" routine defined. That routine branches to a "write_image2" routine which contains the actual code. So when you change the shareable image with a newer version, the original symbol "write_image" remain in the same location in a vector at the top and simply branches to the new location inside the shareable image. If you need to do this while the application is still running, then you need to use lib$find_image_symbol. Remember that it only returns an address that you store in a variable. So you can call it again with a different file and update the variable with the new address of the routine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:25:57 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <53460$467aecd9$cef899e2$3043@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> Stephen Hoffman wrote: > Stone circles filled of fire are seen on the mountaintops, signaling > the the faithful from the surrounding countryside. Many and giant > frames of logs are roaring in hundreds of separate fires along the > beach. Orange light flickers across the faces of the arriving > mourners. Mist and fog and smoke mix together, and hang over the > inlet. A thunderstorm is just visible over the open ocean, out > beyond the entrance of the fjord. Mournful wailing from the c.o.v. > chorus reverberates. Members of the family and the royal court > assemble. Some cry. Some are stoic. The earthly husk of a > rainbow-sheened DVD is carried out on a RL02 disk platter shield, and > mounted on a wooden platform amidships on the longboat. A tankard of > Guiness is raised in final salute. The sounds of wailing increase, > from an increasing wind and some from the mourners. A torch is > touched to the longboat, and the long and low-slung vessel slowly > begins to burn. Once fully afire, the ship is cast off, and drifts > out into the fjord on a steady-increasing wind, out toward the > rumbling storm. The pyre continues to increase, and the vessel's > sails themselves are now flickering alight. Light from the longboat > now dances across the wooded mountainsides, and across the water > itself. Ghostly wisps of smoke and fire arise like spirits or ghosts, > twist together, and drift away ahead of the longboat, leading the > vessel forward. Somewhere, a bagpipe sounds and its lonesome notes > echo off the distant peaks, as the longboat slips gracefully from > view into the mists of the impending storm. > > But seriously, if you believe this cancellation is going to arise, > then you'll want to look at your particular exposures. Mac OS X and > Windows will eventually end. Yes, even Linux. x86-32 is ending now, > as we watch. And if a platform doesn't "end", it'll morph into > something that few here would ever recognize as being related. This > takes years or decades, but it happens. > > In many environments, little or no extra effort need occur even in the > face of the frantic yammering and the FUD storms, prior to the next > deployment cycle. ECOs to current, upgrades, etc.; tasks that are > normal best-practices tasks. Some folks will even sit on a > configuration, sans ECOs and upgrades, and this too can be a perfectly > viable and appropriate strategy when the correct considerations are in > place. > > Most folks already in a deployment cycle know if they need long-term > sources for parts and services, and will source contracts for that. > > For smaller deployments, look at how you can deploy dual-use > solutions; where upgrades and enhancements also make porting easier. > This can involve using XML to get information into and out of the > environment, using tools such as ProgreSQL or a commercial SQL rather > than RMS, and other similar operations. XML and a good relational > database can benefit both the current environment, and can ease a > port. This can also include documenting your code and your build > procedures and your processes. > > Barring cases where your porting window is significantly longer than > the window your current hardware might survive, the usual course of > action is to ignore all frantic yammering and the FUD do what you > have been doing; to keep using the software and the hardware. If > your hardware is aging and you believe your porting window is > potentially longer, you may well want to look at upgrading to a newer > VAX, Alpha or Integrity; this to ensure a source of newer parts. You > can also acquire a source of spare parts, possibly sourcing and > storing several servers. > > Frantic yammering and FUD often exist solely to get someone (you, a > vendor, etc) to spend money on something you might not otherwise spend > money on. > > And yes, a somewhat contrarian approach: if you believe your platform > is going away, then you should seriously consider a move to the most > current versions and configurations. Don't stay on ill-supported or > already-ancient hardware and software. Why? That'll tend to force > your hand and force your port sooner than with a configuration using > more recent hardware and software. And an upgrade to a current > configuration will (almost?) inevitably be easier than a port to a > different configuration. > > And look around: there are still some folks around that are dealing > with and that are specializing in moving forward from truly ancient > hardware and software. > > Some will point to emulation, and that's a reasonable option. That's > an easy way to get off of failing hardware. Realize that emulation > does tie you to a lower-level software and hardware stack; if what > software and hardware your emulator is based on goes away and your > chosen emulator doesn't get upgraded, you are again in an environment > no different than having your hardware go away. > > An emulation environment is inherently somewhat harder to maintain. > In particular, it is both more complex; you have to manage and > maintain the underlying "hardware" with new virus definitions or > kernel patches or... and from where ever you are getting those. As > for the correctness of an emulation, even successfully booting > OpenVMS itself tests only a fraction of the full architected > environment. Some of the errors can be quite subtle. A good > emulator will have these worked out, though a good emulator is still > a large and complex project, and an emulator is still based on > another operating system, and all of that stack must be maintained to > keep your client environment running. > > Support for x86 hardware is itself no panacea. More than a few > applications based on 8086 are impossible to move forward to > current-generation hardware, meaning these 8086 applications are > trapped on dead-end iron. (Where have I heard that phrase before?) > And there are various x86-based environments that have been > discontinued over the years, when a key vendor exited the market, or > when an or open-source team evaporated. > > As for some other discussions relevant to OpenVMS itself... > > http://64.223.189.234/node/225 > http://64.223.189.234/node/226 > > Some folks can and do profit from getting you to port, so there'll be > no end to the yammering and the FUD; FUD sells, after all. (I'd > certainly seek to profit if I convinced you to use HoffmanLabs to > port your code from OpenVMS to Mac OS X and Xserve and Xserve RAID > gear, for instance.) There are other ways that folks can profit > from yammering, it doesn't have to be financial. There are other > forms of "profit". > > If you remember nothing else here, do remember that any effort and any > expenditures involved with porting your applications are wasted until > and unless you succeed; until the code is ported and operational. And > if you are deploying a wholly new system, the considerations are the > same regardless of the vendor and the platform -- how much do you pay > up front, and how much do you pay over time. Well said. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:05:16 -0700 From: sean@obanion.us Subject: Re: Infiniband Message-ID: <1182467116.156367.245220@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Well, no, because Infinband is not supported, unless it emulates a network/Ethernet adapter, but then why do it? No, it's not being worked on, because SCS over TCP/IP is, which is listed on the latest roadmap for OpenVMS 8.4, though I think it's really UDP and not TCP. Using a TCP/IP offload network adapter is probabaly what you should look at, though when and how that is supported might still be vauge when 8.4 is released. Sean On Jun 20, 6:42 pm, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi, > > Anyone got a pointer to a brochure/white-paper on Infiniband as a cluster > Interconnect with VMS. Just the high-level stuff like "How much faster it > is", "What are the distance limitations", "What's it got to do with C-class > blades", "Is it wonderful or irrelevant". > > Cheers Richard Maher ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:30:35 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Infiniband Message-ID: Hi Sean, > Well, no, because Infinband is not supported, unless it emulates a > network/Ethernet adapter, but then why do it? That's the question I was asking :-) I had a quick flick through the following article and assumed VMS would/is also be supporting Infinniband as a cluster interconnect and just wondering at which segment of the market the technology was aimed at. (And was it that much faster? and made Lock Trees just wiz around the cluster? etc etc) http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2007/070524xa.html Cheers Richard Maher wrote in message news:1182467116.156367.245220@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > Well, no, because Infinband is not supported, unless it emulates a > network/Ethernet adapter, but then why do it? > > No, it's not being worked on, because SCS over TCP/IP is, which is > listed on the latest roadmap for OpenVMS 8.4, though I think it's > really UDP and not TCP. > > Using a TCP/IP offload network adapter is probabaly what you should > look at, though when and how that is supported might still be vauge > when 8.4 is released. > > > Sean > > On Jun 20, 6:42 pm, "Richard Maher" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Anyone got a pointer to a brochure/white-paper on Infiniband as a cluster > > Interconnect with VMS. Just the high-level stuff like "How much faster it > > is", "What are the distance limitations", "What's it got to do with C-class > > blades", "Is it wonderful or irrelevant". > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:04:16 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <$lNxSnDCDtli@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <3f119ada0706210624u67fe6e3cr3de73ce25fdcc6f1@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW writes: > their policy doesn't allow machines not > owned by them to attach to their network for fear of virii being > brought in. (Everyone knows that VMS isn't an issue, including the > person who sits in the office that says "IT director", but nobody will > make a policy exception. *sigh*, government... ) Even VMS could be host to a PC virus if someone puts it there. There is a third party product that runs on VMS just to scan for those. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:08:25 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article <3f119ada0706210624u67fe6e3cr3de73ce25fdcc6f1@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW wrote: > > I took my RX2600 box in and set it up as an InfoServer (Yay for > learning experiences), which is probably viable but doesn't currently > work. I can connect to it, specifiy the service, and load about 16K > blocks off the served disk (or 48k blocks directly off the DVD), then > it stalls for no visible reason. Check for problems in the network. I boot/install from an infoserver constantly. When the network is having problems, the EFI-based network network services are not very robust. How far do you get? If you configure the server to log TFTP and BOOTP requests, you can verify that it gets that far. Does the infoserver SHOW SERVICE command show that a client has connected? If you get that far, you should be able to ride out temporary network problems and make progress. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 05:19:48 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article <3f119ada0706210624u67fe6e3cr3de73ce25fdcc6f1@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW wrote: > On 6/18/07, DeanW wrote: > > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > ... > I took my RX2600 box in and set it up as an InfoServer (Yay for > learning experiences), which is probably viable but doesn't currently > work. I can connect to it, specifiy the service, and load about 16K > blocks off the served disk (or 48k blocks directly off the DVD), then > it stalls for no visible reason. When I posted before I forgot one other thing... The Infoserver service does NOT like to be active on more than one network adapter, if the multiple adapters are connected to the same extended LAN. If you do this, it WILL run terribly slowly. The default configuration will start the service on every ethernet adapter; if you plug them all into the same network it won't work well. You should find ESS$LAST_STARTUP.TEMPLATE in SYS$MANAGER. Make a copy of this file named ESS$LAST_STARTUP.DAT. Comment out the line that says ALL_CONTROLLERS = ON Add a line like DEVICE=(EWA) Pick whichever single network device you want. When the infoserver stuff starts, it will only use the device(s) you list. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:37:27 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Mac OS Message-ID: <8ca6$467aefae$cef8887a$30728@TEKSAVVY.COM> Stephen Hoffman wrote: > from software rather older than the rebuilt Mac OS kernel that arrived > with Mac OS X. It's like OpenVMS VAX, in terms of OpenVMS Quite different in fact. OS 8.6 is a descendant of the original Lisa operating system. They had added the ability to have multople applications running at the same time with "multi finder" in 6, and embeded it into the OS with 7. Not true multitasking and applications had to call "systemtask" at regular intervals to give control back to the OS so the OS might swicth to another app. OS-X has very little in common with the original MACoS except for the still current HFS file system. It allows a rudimentary OS 9.2 to boot as an application within OS-X. 10.4 drops support for appleshare over appletalk. (appleshare was Apple's "FAL over decnet") In fact, I get the feeling that OS-X's desktop is more inspired from CDE than from the original MAC-OS. People have worked for years to try to get back a funtional Apple Menu and a real trash can on the desktop. In contrast, VAX-VMS and Alpha-VMS were truly the same (initially) from the user and user mode application point of view with fairly minor differences. Alpha-VMS diverged simply because of decisions to slow development of VAX-VMS and since it was a separate code base. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 2007 20:37:32 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Mac OS Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: > Stephen Hoffman wrote: >> from software rather older than the rebuilt Mac OS kernel that arrived >> with Mac OS X. It's like OpenVMS VAX, in terms of OpenVMS > > Quite different in fact. OS 8.6 is a descendant of the original Lisa ^^^^ > operating system. *Bzzzzt* Thank you for playing. We have some nice parting gifts... The Mac OS was not and is not based on the Lisa work. The only thing that the (original) Mac and the Lisa have in common is the 68000 processor. There is no hardware or software in common. > They had added the ability to have multople applications running at the same > time with "multi finder" in 6, and embeded it into the OS with 7. Not true > multitasking and applications had to call "systemtask" at regular intervals > to give control back to the OS so the OS might swicth to another app. "MultiFinder" was really Apple licensing back Andy Hertzfeld's[1] Juggler, which was user-level code for doing the same thing. IIRC, Juggler first made an appearance in MacOS 4.1.[2] > OS-X has very little in common with the original MACoS except for the still > current HFS file system. It allows a rudimentary OS 9.2 to boot as an > application within OS-X. 10.4 drops support for appleshare over appletalk. > (appleshare was Apple's "FAL over decnet") HFS is only "current" in the same way that ODS-2 is current in VMS. HFS+ is the filesystem of choice on Mac OS X (and was available on MacOS 9 as well). > In fact, I get the feeling that OS-X's desktop is more inspired from CDE > than from the original MAC-OS. People have worked for years to try to > get back a funtional Apple Menu and a real trash can on the desktop. Mac OS X is NeXTstep ported from 68040 to PowerPC by way of the Intel chipset. The desktop looks no more like CDE than it does the original MacOS Finder, but NeXT users wouldn't even blink.[3] [1] The MacOS equivalent of Hoff. [2] MacOS 5.x was a special variant for certain customers only. For most people, the transition was from 4.1.x to 6.0. [3] I really liked the original cube, though the pizza boxes weren't anything special. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:52:45 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Mac OS Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson wrote: > "MultiFinder" was really Apple licensing back Andy Hertzfeld's[1] Juggler, > which was user-level code for doing the same thing. IIRC, Juggler first made > an appearance in MacOS 4.1.[2] When I saw Andy demonstrate it in the mid-1980s, it was called "Switcher" not "Juggler." -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:06:16 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Mac OS Message-ID: <3a22$467b4acd$cef8887a$12881@TEKSAVVY.COM> Craig A. Berry wrote: > When I saw Andy demonstrate it in the mid-1980s, it was called > "Switcher" not "Juggler." Yeah ! Now that rings a bell. Switcher was the app in the OS before it became integrated as the multifinder. In 1987, not that long ago, I had done a lot of work on my mac for the office for proposals to buy the all mighty MVII, as well as manuals for an email system and forms for bank fraud reporting. This was a 1 meg mac, 1 diskette drive. OS fit on one 1meg diskette. Pagemaker fit on 1 1meg diskette. (PCs were still at the 5.25" floppies back then). I still have those diskettes. (my original PageMaker serial number is on it). That MAc travelled to/from the office. Also got it as hand luggage on planes, as well as checked luggage in dash-8s that used to run between montreal-toronto. Interestingly, if you open the MACplus Case (need the special tool), the plastic inside is engraved with many names of the designers. many of the early apps, due to lack of switcher, had a "launch" menu option so you could launch the next app directly without having to return to finder. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:59:46 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Mac OS (was: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option) Message-ID: In article , Stephen Hoffman wrote: > And FWIW, the One-Button-Mouse-Whinge is a classic Newbie Apple > Whinging Mistake. It's been done. :-) When they advertised the first Mac in 1984, they made rather a big deal out of the fact that it was extremely hard to push the wrong button since there was only one. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:46:17 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Mac OS (was: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option) Message-ID: In article , Stephen Hoffman wrote: > And FWIW, the One-Button-Mouse-Whinge is a classic Newbie Apple > Whinging Mistake. It's been done. :-) Once you get used to it, you don't notice the lack of buttons. Other Things That Have Been Done: Whinging about differences between previous versions of Mac OS and OS X. Those of us who didn't experience older Macs have no idea what you are talking about. Really. Whinging about Finder idiosyncrasies. It's different. Please don't go on about how Mac OS did it. (Those of us who didn't experience older Macs....etc etc). File a bug report with Apple if you see fit. VT terminal emulation. The supplied Terminal.app is not very good. Some of us use iTerm; others use xterm. (Please don't go on about how Mac OS did it ... etc etc). If you find a good, native OS X terminal emulator, Please Let Us Know. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:00:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: NFS Startup error ? Message-ID: In article <1c0e6$467a50af$cef8887a$26108@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > Or is it a waste of time because NFS wonm't work anyways because MAC OS > (10.4.9) is incompatible with the software on VMS ? The NFS server in Multinet will work with MacOS, but you have to force the Mac to use an older protocol (the Mac is supposed to fall back, but it doesn't). It looks like you're using TCPIP Services (aka UCX), try doing the explicit mount from the terminal application so you can tell it which protocol version to use. > I also tried to connect to an FTP file system from the MAC, and while > some FTP connection appears to be made, it is quickly killed. Anyone had > any success with that ? FTP keeps polling and not liking what it gets. I assume they're using the wrong form of the list command (one is not supposed to be machine readable). Even setting the FTP server to "UNIX compatability" didn't fix it. OBTW, have you found a free OS X ssh/sftp implementation that you like? The ones I'm using are all OS 9 applications and can't be used on the Intel Macs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:27:15 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: NFS Startup error ? Message-ID: <467a8ac5@mvb.saic.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <1c0e6$467a50af$cef8887a$26108@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >> Or is it a waste of time because NFS wonm't work anyways because MAC OS >> (10.4.9) is incompatible with the software on VMS ? > > The NFS server in Multinet will work with MacOS, but you have to force > the Mac to use an older protocol (the Mac is supposed to fall back, but > it doesn't). It looks like you're using TCPIP Services (aka UCX), try > doing the explicit mount from the terminal application so you can > tell it which protocol version to use. I serve NFS mount points to my Macs using Multinet NFS server and do not have to do anything special. I simply tell folks to use "Connect to server" in the Finder pull-down menu and enter: nfs://host/mountpoint I will shortly be setting up some auto-mount points so that I can use an NFS share for the user directories. >> I also tried to connect to an FTP file system from the MAC, and while >> some FTP connection appears to be made, it is quickly killed. Anyone had >> any success with that ? > > FTP keeps polling and not liking what it gets. I assume they're > using the wrong form of the list command (one is not supposed to be > machine readable). Even setting the FTP server to "UNIX > compatability" didn't fix it. > > OBTW, have you found a free OS X ssh/sftp implementation that you > like? The ones I'm using are all OS 9 applications and can't be > used on the Intel Macs. What's wrong with one that comes with OS X? I use it as both server and client between Mac OS X and VMS. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:00:08 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... > P. Sture wrote: Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There were VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only mentioned first, it was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the way". It wasn't a SAN failover it was a data center failover. It was cool. Sheesh. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:17:07 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1182449827.229640.235790@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 1:00 pm, "FredK" wrote: > "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message > > news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... > > > P. Sture wrote: > > Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There were > VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only mentioned first, it > was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the way". It wasn't a SAN > failover it was a data center failover. It was cool. > > Sheesh. Damn straight. Every little bit of recognition and publicity helps. Now we want more! Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:40:55 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Cydrome Leader wrote: > The operating systems were irrelevant as far as was visible. And yet the delay before return to service varied between operating systems. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:44:29 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <7dd80f60706211144v943de2fw1866f899ccf28e59@mail.gmail.com> On 6/21/07, Rich Jordan wrote: > On Jun 21, 1:00 pm, "FredK" wrote: > > "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message > > > > news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... > > > > > P. Sture wrote: > > > > Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There were > > VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only mentioned first, it > > was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the way". It wasn't a SAN > > failover it was a data center failover. It was cool. > > > > Sheesh. > > Damn straight. Every little bit of recognition and publicity helps. > Did anyone look at the contents of the "Learn More" tab? There the configuration for OpenVMS is described as: HP OpenVMS operating environment AlphaServer ES40 with OpenVMS clusters failing over to Integrity Superdome Now if this page can be highlighted on the HP.COM main page. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:39:42 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <96bfd$467ae201$cef899e2$27392@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <1182347634.410293.195610@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > IanMiller writes: >> See the video at >> >> http://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof >> >> and see which operating system recovers first. I wonder about the >> disaster tolerant fish though :-) > > Why does it require cookies just to watch the video? > > bill Because the popcorn machine for this movie went down and didn't have a backup, so HP figured cookies were the next best thing while viewing the movie. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:48:10 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: "Ken Robinson" wrote in message news:7dd80f60706211144v943de2fw1866f899ccf28e59@mail.gmail.com... > On 6/21/07, Rich Jordan wrote: >> On Jun 21, 1:00 pm, "FredK" wrote: >> > "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message >> > >> > news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... >> > >> > > P. Sture wrote: >> > >> > Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There >> > were >> > VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only mentioned >> > first, it >> > was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the way". It wasn't a SAN >> > failover it was a data center failover. It was cool. >> > >> > Sheesh. >> >> Damn straight. Every little bit of recognition and publicity helps. >> > > Did anyone look at the contents of the "Learn More" tab? > > There the configuration for OpenVMS is described as: > HP OpenVMS operating environment > AlphaServer ES40 with OpenVMS clusters failing over to Integrity Superdome > > Now if this page can be highlighted on the HP.COM main page. > > Ken If you are gonna blow something up, an ES40 is a lot cheaper than a Superdome ;-) Pretty cool at every level. Mixed architectures. VMS Clusters. Fastest failover (in fact we are looking at why we weren't even faster in the test). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:54:39 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <4b131$467ae582$cef899e2$27959@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> FredK wrote: > "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message > news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... >> P. Sture wrote: > > > Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There > were VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only > mentioned first, it was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the > way". It wasn't a SAN failover it was a data center failover. It > was cool. > > > Sheesh. So here's what I suggest ...... take a demo like this to the corner of Wall & Broadway in NYC, and the Docklands in London and do the whole demo again but instument it with one other thing .......counters with the number of missed/failed trades and quotes due to the lengthy recovery of Non-Stop, Windows, PH-UX, and Linux vs. OpenVMS. as an example, the LSE does about 8-900 quotes per second (on average ...more at peaks), so do the math on the delay in recovery. Then translate those missed/failed trades into dollars (easy enough to do if one places an arbitrary figure on the txn (more if you are in competition with another exchange on an interlisted security), and have it update in real time on a big pixelboard display showing the cost of NOT using OpenVMS. Problem is that HP makes more money selling every other OS in the demo except VMS so it'll never happen. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:55:11 -0800 From: "C.W.Holeman II" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <137lpd2hn26i83e@corp.supernews.com> Richard Maher wrote: >> http://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof > But how dare they mention OpenVMS first? And show it out-performing the othe > OS? Surely, that act alone saves us from another delightful three weeks of > bitching and moaning in COV? In fact VMS is even listed with the other HP OSes: From http://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof: > What was blown up? Products from the entire spectrum of HP products, > including HP servers, HP StorageWorks products, HP Software and HP > Procurve networking products running in five operating > environments—HP-UX, HP OpenVMS, HP NonStop, Red Hat Enterprise Linux > and Microsoft® Windows Server 2003. -- C.W.Holeman II | cwhii@Julian5Locals.com-5 http://JulianLocals.com/cwhii To only a fraction of the human race does God give the privilege of earning one's bread doing what one would have gladly pursued free, for passion. I am very thankful. The Mythical Man-Month Epilogue/F.P.Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:50:02 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <81ada$467af29f$cef8887a$4734@TEKSAVVY.COM> johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > > How new is this "new" Mac? Unless its a Mac Mini (which you have to > provide your own keyboard and mouse) you should have at least a 2- > button mouse. Apple hasn't packaged a 1-button mouse with a Mac in > years now. This is a used mac from ebay. It has both USB and ADB. This will allow me to use my old ADB keyboard with french layout on it. (And I have to figure out how to convert/transfer my "Classic" keyboard layout that matches an LK201 layout over to OS-X). And Apple has has one button mice for some time even with USB. Those tiny hocket puck mice for Imacs are 1 button mice. Having gotten so used to the 3 button mouse with scroll wheel support on VMS, it is really really strange to return to the 1 button mouse on the mac. Steve Jobs had argued so much that one button mouse was the way to go that I am susprised that he would have relented to support multibutton mouse. In terms of the problem I had, there was no way out. There are keystrokes to generate "right click". Eg; ALT-[LEFT MOUSE] generates a [RIGHT MOUSE]. But if your mouse only generates a [RIGHT MOUSE] there are no keystrokes to associate with [RIGHT MOUSE] to generate a [LEFT MOUSE] I SSHed into my mac from VMS, and used "mv" to rename my preferences folder and rebooted. Had to rebuild all my preferences. (I couldn't tell in which file that preference was stored). > None of the ADB Mac are even supported > for OS X anymore as far as I know). Yep, support for ADB is still there. That was one of the reasons I chose those older macs to make the replacement of the lightning-damaged mac easier. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:24:59 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <8cf1c$467afad0$cef8887a$590@TEKSAVVY.COM> C.W.Holeman II wrote: > In fact VMS is even listed with the other HP OSes: > > From http://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof: Such links are not very useful. Unless you know it, you won't stumble onto it. Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news wires, then it is OK. But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP main pages, people won't stumble onto it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:51:04 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <20070621225104.GA78326@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 06:24:59PM -0400, JF Mezei wrote: > C.W.Holeman II wrote: > >In fact VMS is even listed with the other HP OSes: > > > > From http://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof: > > > Such links are not very useful. Unless you know it, you won't stumble > onto it. > > Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news > wires, then it is OK. But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP > main pages, people won't stumble onto it. it is only 2 clicks from the main page: hp.com => (bottom left) New server, storage, software and services for the enterprise => (right column, under HP StorageWorks Conference) Watch the video I guess if you are interested in what HP have to offer for `enterprise business' you are likely to stumble onto it. I liked the video. My wife commented that it is a typical male thing, a woman would just swith the power off. Seriously though, is exploding any more damaging to availability than a power cut? -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:37:53 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1182469073.517938.323710@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 2:00 pm, "FredK" wrote: > "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message > > news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... > > > P. Sture wrote: > > Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There were > VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only mentioned first, it > was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the way". It wasn't a SAN > failover it was a data center failover. It was cool. > > Sheesh. I finally got around to watching this video. ... AWESOME!!! I agree with Fred here. We should be happy about it. IIRC VMS beat the 2nd best by more than half. I mean really: Would you prefer there never would be such a video? And Linux was worse than Windows! See, you all laughed when I wrote to Hurd. And now VMS shines in this video. HAH! :-) Thank you, HP. Thank you Mr. Hurd. Anyway, what's with the fish? OK, I have to catch up on this thread before I ask any more questions. I must say it was really weird to see data center equipment out in a field! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:39:56 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1182469196.646195.235750@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 8:07 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Chris Sharman writes: > > > > > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> To view the HP-ETV, you must have browser Cookies enabled, Macromedia Flash Player, > >> and a supported Browser/Operating System/Media Player configuration. > > >> For additional system requirements and further help, Click Here... > > >> Which yeilds: > > >> Q: What do I need to view this site? > >> A: Your computer must meet the following requirements to successfully view this site: > >> Operating System Requirements > >> Microsoft Windows XP (SP1, SP2), 2000, 98 (SE) OR Macintosh OSX > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^-- got this > >> Browser Requirements > >> For PC users we recommend the latest versions of: Internet Explorer, FireFox, > >> Mozilla OR Netscape > >> For Mac users we recommend the latest versions of: Safari, FireFox OR Mozilla > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-----^^^^^^-- got this > >> Media Player Requirements > >> Windows Media Player 9+(for PC IE users) OR Macromedia Flash 7.0.25 > > >Good job I didn't read this rubbish. Worked fine on Ubuntu 6.10 + > >Firefox 2.0.0.4 > > Is it another Micro$hit video format in a wrapper? If so, I won't be able > to watch it. If I can't watch it, I won't inform others to watch it. If > others don't see it, the message is lost. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" So find someone who has Windows and watch it! It's great! Be a little creative. Go to an Internet cafe if you have to. C'mon, it won't kill ya. Sheeesh. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:45:39 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1182469539.751063.19290@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 6:51 pm, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 06:24:59PM -0400, JF Mezei wrote: > > C.W.Holeman II wrote: > > >In fact VMS is even listed with the other HP OSes: > > > > Fromhttp://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof: > > > Such links are not very useful. Unless you know it, you won't stumble > > onto it. > > > Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news > > wires, then it is OK. But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP > > main pages, people won't stumble onto it. > > it is only 2 clicks from the main page: > hp.com => > (bottom left) New server, storage, software and services for the enterprise => > (right column, under HP StorageWorks Conference) Watch the video > > I guess if you are interested in what HP have to offer for `enterprise > business' you are likely to stumble onto it. > > I liked the video. My wife commented that it is a typical male thing, > a woman would just swith the power off. Seriously though, is exploding > any more damaging to availability than a power cut? Yes. The power will eventually come back. The blown-up data center won't. AEF > > -- > Anton Shterenlikht > Room 2.6, Queen's Building > Mech Eng Dept > Bristol University > University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK > Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 > Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:59:51 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article , "FredK" writes: {...snip...} >If you are gonna blow something up, an ES40 is a lot cheaper than a >Superdome ;-) Pretty cool at every level. Mixed architectures. VMS >Clusters. Fastest failover (in fact we are looking at why we weren't even >faster in the test). They blew up an ES40? Crap. Why not donate it to me? They should have blown up the Superdome as if my experience is any indication of the hardware qualilty of HP hardware, the ES40 would well outlive anything from HP. AlphaStation 200 4/166... still hard at work. HP Integrity rx2600... out to lunch and not coming back -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:03:26 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <1182469196.646195.235750@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >On Jun 21, 8:07 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article , Chris Sharman writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >> To view the HP-ETV, you must have browser Cookies enabled, Macromedia Flash Player, >> >> and a supported Browser/Operating System/Media Player configuration. >> >> >> For additional system requirements and further help, Click Here... >> >> >> Which yeilds: >> >> >> Q: What do I need to view this site? >> >> A: Your computer must meet the following requirements to successfully view this site: >> >> Operating System Requirements >> >> Microsoft Windows XP (SP1, SP2), 2000, 98 (SE) OR Macintosh OSX >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^-- got this >> >> Browser Requirements >> >> For PC users we recommend the latest versions of: Internet Explorer, FireFox, >> >> Mozilla OR Netscape >> >> For Mac users we recommend the latest versions of: Safari, FireFox OR Mozilla >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-----^^^^^^-- got this >> >> Media Player Requirements >> >> Windows Media Player 9+(for PC IE users) OR Macromedia Flash 7.0.25 >> >> >Good job I didn't read this rubbish. Worked fine on Ubuntu 6.10 + >> >Firefox 2.0.0.4 >> >> Is it another Micro$hit video format in a wrapper? If so, I won't be able >> to watch it. If I can't watch it, I won't inform others to watch it. If >> others don't see it, the message is lost. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > >So find someone who has Windows and watch it! It's great! Be a little >creative. Go to an Internet cafe if you have to. C'mon, it won't kill >ya. I will not touch Weendoze. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:18:56 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <467B1570.2020107@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Jun 21, 6:51 pm, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > >>On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 06:24:59PM -0400, JF Mezei wrote: >> >>>C.W.Holeman II wrote: >>> >>>>In fact VMS is even listed with the other HP OSes: >>> >>>>Fromhttp://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof: >>> >>>Such links are not very useful. Unless you know it, you won't stumble >>>onto it. >> >>>Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news >>>wires, then it is OK. But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP >>>main pages, people won't stumble onto it. >> >>it is only 2 clicks from the main page: >>hp.com => >>(bottom left) New server, storage, software and services for the enterprise => >>(right column, under HP StorageWorks Conference) Watch the video >> >>I guess if you are interested in what HP have to offer for `enterprise >>business' you are likely to stumble onto it. >> >>I liked the video. My wife commented that it is a typical male thing, >>a woman would just swith the power off. Seriously though, is exploding >>any more damaging to availability than a power cut? > > > Yes. The power will eventually come back. The blown-up data center > won't. > If you are really serious about up time, you have emergency generators that you start when the power goes off. Your UPS sustains you for the few minutes it takes to bring the generators on line. If you are REALLY serious, you have redundant generators so you can shut one down for refueling, oil change, or whatever. If you really need 100% uptime, you should have the budget for all this stuff and probably more. The "more" includes N+1 redundant air conditioners or fully redundant depending on how paranoid and how rich you are. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:37:56 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller wrote: > I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than > VMS to failover. > > The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] I'm afraid I didn't get the relevance of the fish. Was the one called Sparky (getting blown out of the water) a reference to Sparc? It had me wondering where a piano featured ... -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:11:27 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <3lFei.156$hx5.85@newsfe12.lga> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > >In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > IanMiller wrote: > >> I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than >> VMS to failover. >> >> The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] > >I'm afraid I didn't get the relevance of the fish. Was the one called >Sparky (getting blown out of the water) a reference to Sparc? Fish? Does somebody have a non-M$ version that I can watch? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:19:59 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <3lFei.156$hx5.85@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > > > > >In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > IanMiller wrote: > > > >> I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than > >> VMS to failover. > >> > >> The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] > > > >I'm afraid I didn't get the relevance of the fish. Was the one called > >Sparky (getting blown out of the water) a reference to Sparc? > > > Fish? > > Does somebody have a non-M$ version that I can watch? I watched the low-bandwidth version on my Mac, using Safari, via a dial-up connection. You don't need microsoft. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:28:49 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi Paul, > > > What cracked me up was seeing everyone wearing white coats. > > I did once work in a private bank in London where all the IT staff had to > own frock coats to be worn on special occasions. (some big knob walking > 'round the office?) But then everyone in the bank (apart from contractors!) > had to own one, so I suppose that doen't count. (Pretty sure they only did > away with the practise when they were taken over again a few years ago) > Not quite the same if everyone had them. I am reminded of IBM days where no tour of an IBM building was complete without seeing at least a few doors marked with high security notices. That definitely left you with the impression that Top Secret Research was in progress. This was especially noticeable in IBM's training centre in Sudbury - someone had obviously thought about the PR potential there. > > PS. How's the hip coming along? > (For other readers. Field service report: Replacement hip joint installed.) Progressing nicely thanks, and getting more mobile by the day. The physiotherapy, while somewhat knackering, is an absolute breeze compared with the sadist of a trainer I had in my sporting days, so belated thanks to him :-) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:53:53 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1182477233.115255.236000@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 21, 6:51 pm, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 06:24:59PM -0400, JF Mezei wrote: > > C.W.Holeman II wrote: > > >In fact VMS is even listed with the other HP OSes: > > > > Fromhttp://www.hp.com/go/disasterproof: > > > Such links are not very useful. Unless you know it, you won't stumble > > onto it. > > > Now, if HP mentions this URL in a real press release sent out the news > > wires, then it is OK. But otherwise, unless there is a link from the HP > > main pages, people won't stumble onto it. > > it is only 2 clicks from the main page: > hp.com => > (bottom left) New server, storage, software and services for the enterprise => > (right column, under HP StorageWorks Conference) Watch the video > > I guess if you are interested in what HP have to offer for `enterprise > business' you are likely to stumble onto it. This is a big improvement! Hurray!!! > I liked the video. My wife commented that it is a typical male thing, > a woman would just swith the power off. Seriously though, is exploding > any more damaging to availability than a power cut? Yes. You'll be down for far longer with a gas explosion than a power outage. As soon as the power returns, you can bring everything back up. You still have all your equipment and all your data on disk. With a gas explosion your data center and your data are toast. Imagine how long it would take to procure all new equipment, set it all up, and restore your data from off-site storage! Which would you rather happen to your home? A temporary blackout, or kaboom!!! OK, maybe it wouldn't matter for the results of this test, and I'd rather not have seen $1M+ of equipment blown up, but it shows a worst case scenario and has a lot more impact on the viewer who will be much more likely to remember it! AEF > > -- > Anton Shterenlikht > Room 2.6, Queen's Building > Mech Eng Dept > Bristol University > University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK > Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 > Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:51:09 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article , "FredK" wrote: > "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message > news:f5d12c$6hv$1@reader2.panix.com... > > P. Sture wrote: > > > Oh come on you guys. For once be thrilled. HP shows off VMS. There were > VMS guys there (recognize them?). OpenVMS was not only mentioned first, it > was back online first, it wasn't an "Oh by the way". It wasn't a SAN > failover it was a data center failover. It was cool. > > > Sheesh. Well, I did say "This was obviously theatre for the masses". I really do think that hp did a great job on this, and hope it gets a wide audience. Ensuring that it gets in front of a few CEO/CIO types would be an excellent move. Someone else mentioned the length of it, but is it really too long to show in a prime business TV slot aimed at top executives? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:01:26 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <5dtjevF35a760U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: > > In article <5dt4enF35qc8vU1@mid.individual.net>, > > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > > >> In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > >> IanMiller writes: > >> > I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than > >> > VMS to failover. > >> > > >> > The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] > >> > >> Probably because it didn't failover. They just changed the IP address > >> and re-booted it to take the place of the other system. :-) > >> > >> Like I said, it was funny. It is so contrived as to be almost absurd. > >> Like the "bulletproof" one. Let me pick the path of the bullet and I > >> can shoot a hole in my home built RAID arrays without a hiccup, too. > >> Or, go back to the original "bulletproof" add, Master Locks. Stood up > >> to a 30.06 shell but I can open it with the nail file in my pocket. > > > > What cracked me up was seeing everyone wearing white coats. I don't > > think I've ever seen a hardware or software type actually wearing a > > white coat (in real life - Hollywood doesn't count). > > What!!!!! You mean I'm not supposed to be wearing mine. Now I am > truly disappointed. Oops! > > > > Come on Bill. This was obviously theatre for the masses. Picking holes > > in it is like spoiling a good western by claiming that they didn't make > > that model of Winchester until a few years after the film was set. > > Oh, I do that all the time. Last Samurai was a great movie and the > chronological screw-ups just added to the enjoyment. :-) Chuckle. I _nearly_ started the sentence above with "You are probably one of the folks who spoils a good western...". > > > > Addendum: What _really_ cracked me up was the idea of a natural gas line > > in a data centre in the first place. Someone hadn''t done their job > > properly there. > > Well, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wondered about that. > I've sort of cheated there. A fuel line was found running across the top of a computer room at one customer many years ago. An insurance company audit picked that one up. For bonus points, they also found a canteen deep fat fryer directly above the mainframe. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:58:12 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <8VGei.5172$bn6.2119@trnddc03> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1182469196.646195.235750@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > >> >>On Jun 21, 8:07 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >>>In article , Chris Sharman writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> >>>>>To view the HP-ETV, you must have browser Cookies enabled, Macromedia Flash Player, >>>>>and a supported Browser/Operating System/Media Player configuration. >>> >>>>>For additional system requirements and further help, Click Here... >>> >>>>>Which yeilds: >>> >>>>>Q: What do I need to view this site? >>>>>A: Your computer must meet the following requirements to successfully view this site: >>>>> Operating System Requirements >>>>> Microsoft Windows XP (SP1, SP2), 2000, 98 (SE) OR Macintosh OSX >>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^-- got this >>>>> Browser Requirements >>>>> For PC users we recommend the latest versions of: Internet Explorer, FireFox, >>>>> Mozilla OR Netscape >>>>> For Mac users we recommend the latest versions of: Safari, FireFox OR Mozilla >>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-----^^^^^^-- got this >>>>> Media Player Requirements >>>>> Windows Media Player 9+(for PC IE users) OR Macromedia Flash 7.0.25 >>> >>>>Good job I didn't read this rubbish. Worked fine on Ubuntu 6.10 + >>>>Firefox 2.0.0.4 >>> >>>Is it another Micro$hit video format in a wrapper? If so, I won't be able >>>to watch it. If I can't watch it, I won't inform others to watch it. If >>>others don't see it, the message is lost. >>> >>>-- >>>VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>> >>> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >> >> >>So find someone who has Windows and watch it! It's great! Be a little >>creative. Go to an Internet cafe if you have to. C'mon, it won't kill >>ya. > > > I will not touch Weendoze. > Sheesh! Borrow someone else's PC, wear latex gloves, wash thoroughly with an antibacterial soap when done. You're very unlikely to catch anything serious. Don't you know that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:16:08 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <1182469073.517938.323710@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF wrote: > Anyway, what's with the fish? Did you miss the fact that the fish came sailing through the air to return to their aquarium at the end? One could almost say that a business whose datacenter is down (or in the process of failover) is like a ______ out of water (fill in the blank). In case that's not clear enough, if you breathed with gills and had to be out of water while your tank was being changed, would you rather it took a VMS amount of time, an HP-UX amount of time, a Windows amount of time, or a Linux amount of time? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 05:18:05 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <3lFei.156$hx5.85@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > > > > >In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > IanMiller wrote: > > > >> I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than > >> VMS to failover. > >> > >> The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] > > > >I'm afraid I didn't get the relevance of the fish. Was the one called > >Sparky (getting blown out of the water) a reference to Sparc? > > > Fish? > > Does somebody have a non-M$ version that I can watch? I used Opera on my iBook and OS X- no add-ons that I am aware of. As is normal for most streaming video, it was jerky on this system. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 05:19:34 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article > , > Robert Deininger writes: > > > > > >In article <3lFei.156$hx5.85@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > >wrote: > > > >> In article , "P. > >> Sture" > >> writes: > >> > > >> > > >> >In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > >> > IanMiller wrote: > >> > > >> >> I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than > >> >> VMS to failover. > >> >> > >> >> The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] > >> > > >> >I'm afraid I didn't get the relevance of the fish. Was the one called > >> >Sparky (getting blown out of the water) a reference to Sparc? > >> > >> > >> Fish? > >> > >> Does somebody have a non-M$ version that I can watch? > > > >I watched the low-bandwidth version on my Mac, using Safari, via a > >dial-up connection. You don't need microsoft. > > > Gives me the Q? graphic when I go to watch it. Try it with a different user account? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 05:21:56 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <20070621225104.GA78326@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > it is only 2 clicks from the main page: > hp.com => > (bottom left) New server, storage, software and services for the enterprise => > (right column, under HP StorageWorks Conference) Watch the video > > I guess if you are interested in what HP have to offer for `enterprise > business' you are likely to stumble onto it. > > I liked the video. My wife commented that it is a typical male thing, > a woman would just swith the power off. Where's the fun in that? > Seriously though, is exploding any more damaging to availability than > a power cut? Yep. You can't simply flick a power switch half an hour later :-) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:30:27 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: > On Jun 20, 9:37 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >>I too am setting up a new mac with OS-X and it is quite the learning >>curve and headaches since Apple decided to widthdraw support for >>Appletalk and I cannot copy files from my 8.6 system to the new system, >>and the user interface between 8.6 and 10.x is akin to decwindows and >>CDE. One was very simple and easily customisable to fit your >>organisational needs, the other is cute, but a lot harder to customise >>and much less natural to use. >> > > > Yeah. There have been a LOT of complaints about that. I'll even > agree with some of them. The new "Finder" in OS X 10.5 is supposed to > fix at least some of these problems. Though I finally upgraded from > an OS 9 system to OS X 10.4 last year without too much problem. Now > all I have left in the Windows area is my wife's PC (I'm working on > that) and a Windows 2000 server that I share files on and have to keep > because its required to administer my HP EVA5000 SAN storage > controllers. > > >>Now, having clicked on the wrong button, I have set it to use my mouse's >>button as the main button... but my mouse has only one button and it has >>rendered the system useless. >> > > > How new is this "new" Mac? Unless its a Mac Mini (which you have to > provide your own keyboard and mouse) you should have at least a 2- > button mouse. Apple hasn't packaged a 1-button mouse with a Mac in > years now. I didn't even know you could get a 1-button USB mouse (it > has to be a USB mouse since Apple dropped the ADB interface several > generations of systems ago. None of the ADB Mac are even supported > for OS X anymore as far as I know). > > Does the touchpad on my PowerBook count as a 1-button mouse? > John H. Reinhardt > > > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:00:21 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: P. Sture wrote: > I've sort of cheated there. A fuel line was found running across the top > of a computer room at one customer many years ago. An insurance company > audit picked that one up. For bonus points, they also found a canteen > deep fat fryer directly above the mainframe. How have people dealt with water sprinklers in computer rooms ? Is it worth fighting building managers who insist the sprinklers be left in a computer room (despite automated gas systems (halon or CO2, geez, both are really harmful to the planet :-) ? Or is the general logic that the gas system will always extinguish a fire before the sprinklers will start ? Never quite seen those in action, but when heat reaches one sprinklers, is it only that one that opens and sprays water, or are they built in such a way that when one opens, the others also open ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:02:36 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: Hi Brian, > >> Does somebody have a non-M$ version that I can watch? > Gives me the Q? graphic when I go to watch it. Don't know if this helps but, "This video's rooly, rooly good! In schoolyards all over the globe kids have stopped talking about Shrek and Pirates, and it's certainly changed the whole way I look at advertising!". You just don't know what your missin'. HTH :-) Cheers Richard maher wrote in message news:kMFei.876$7R3.676@newsfe12.lga... > In article , Robert Deininger writes: > > > > > >In article <3lFei.156$hx5.85@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > >wrote: > > > >> In article , "P. Sture" > >> writes: > >> > > >> > > >> >In article <1182356790.811635.277740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > >> > IanMiller wrote: > >> > > >> >> I also though it interesting that the non-stop system took longer than > >> >> VMS to failover. > >> >> > >> >> The linux platform was the slowest [except for the fish] > >> > > >> >I'm afraid I didn't get the relevance of the fish. Was the one called > >> >Sparky (getting blown out of the water) a reference to Sparc? > >> > >> > >> Fish? > >> > >> Does somebody have a non-M$ version that I can watch? > > > >I watched the low-bandwidth version on my Mac, using Safari, via a > >dial-up connection. You don't need microsoft. > > > Gives me the Q? graphic when I go to watch it. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:22:48 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <7b3ef$467b4ead$cef8887a$13922@TEKSAVVY.COM> John Santos wrote: > Sheesh! Borrow someone else's PC, wear latex gloves, wash thoroughly with an > antibacterial soap when done. You're very unlikely to catch anything serious. Sorry, but when someone has strong principles, that person will refuse to buckle to the pressure to confirm to non-standard formats. If everyone were like VAXman (god forbid :-), then the world would have never accepted Microsoft's attempts at thrwarting standards and today, MPEG would be the standard for video. Consider what is hapening to music. The RIAA/MPAA's insistance in that proprietary DRM has resulted in the business aspect of on-line music failing it potential. And now EMI has realised this and is slowly removing DRM. Had people fully refuse dto buy any DRM protected music, the industry would have moved to drm-free music much faster and would have accepted the fact that drop in music sales isn't due to the internet, but rather due to the fact that they were pushing a type of noise that people didn't want to spend money to listen to, period. The minute you stop protesting any use of non-standard technology, or terroible HTML coding (such as HP's use of 1 pixel GIF files instead of specifying that colour in the html itself), then it means that those who vroke the standards got away with it. It is the same with war crimes. If you don't prosecute those who suspend habeas corpus, hold innocent under-18 kidnapped in a concentration camp for years without due legal process, it sets a precedent to allow this to happen again and become acceptable practice. There should be 0 tolereance for this. There should be 0 tolerance for companies not abiding to standards. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:09:51 -0700 From: Verne Subject: Re: Oracle Installation Failure After Installation of VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 Patch Message-ID: <1182452991.873106.243560@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 19, 7:22 am, "george.pagliar...@hp.com" wrote: > Hello, > > The following Customer Advisory has been released. I thought it > worthwhile to also post it here. > > George Pagliarulo > ECO Release Process > OpenVMS Sustaining Engineering > Hewlett-Packard Company > > SUPPORT COMMUNICATION - CUSTOMER ADVISORY > > Document ID: c01080145 > > Version: 1 > > OracleInstallation Failure After Installation of VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 > Patch Kit > > NOTICE: The information in this document, including products and > software versions, is current as of the Release Date. This document is > subject to change without notice. > > Release Date: 2007-06-14 > > Last Updated: 2007-06-18 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --=AD--- > > DESCRIPTION > The VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit contained several changes to correctBAC= KUPcase handling problems. These changes, although correctingBACKUP, will c= ause installation ofOracleOpenVMS RDMBS Server > products to fail. Installation ofOraclepatch updates may also fail. > The error manifests itself with a pop-up box from theOracleGUI OUI > (OracleUniversal Installer) indicating that there is an error and > instructing the user to select RETRY, ABORT or CANCEL. There is no > explanation of the problem listed within the pop-up box and the user > can only select ABORT or CANCEL. Selecting RETRY simply loops with the > pop-up appearing again. > > SCOPE > This problem affects OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 systems with the VMS82A_BACKUP- > V0200 patch kit installed. > > RESOLUTION > Engineering is aware of the problem and is developing a solution that > will be distributed in the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0300 patch kit. It is > expected that this kit will ship within the next two to three weeks. > Until that kit is available, customers who are installingOracle > OpenVMS RDMBS orOraclepatches should not install the VMS82A_BACKUP- > V0200 patch kit. If you have installed the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch > kit and are not planning to installOracleOpenVMS RDMBS orOracle > patches, no action is necessary. > > Customers who have installed the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit and are > experiencingOracleinstallation failures can take one of the > following actions: > > o Use PRODUCT UNDO patch to remove the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit. > Note that if the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit was not the last patch > kit installed, users will need to first UNDO any patch kit installed > after theBACKUPpatch kit in order to UNDO theBACKUPpatch kit. > > o When installing the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit, if you chose the > option to save replaced files as _OLD, you can rename the SYS$COMMON: > [SYSLIB]BACKUPSHR.EXE_OLD file to SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]BACKUPSHR.EXE > > o The BACKUPSHR.EXE image on the OpenVMS installation disk can be > copied from [VMS$COMMON.SYSLIB]BACKUPSHR.EXE to the SYS$COMMON: > [SYSLIB] directory on the system disk. > > o If recovery data was saved, users can copy the BACKUPSHR.EXE image > from the recovery data set to the SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB] directory. To > locate the correct BACKUPSHR.EXE image to restore, execute the command > DIRECTORY/DATE SYS$SYSDEVICE:[PCSI$UNDO_*.PCSI$SCOPE_BOOTSTRAP.SYSLIB] > BACKUPSHR.EXE > > Since the BACKUPSHR.EXE image has shipped in the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0100 > patch kit, and all V8.2 Alpha UPDATE KITS, there will be several > directory results. Copy the BACKUPSHR.EXE image dated 13-JUL-2005 > 14:55:12.66 to the SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB] directory. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --=AD--- > > Hardware Platforms Affected: Not Applicable > Operating Systems Affected: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 > Software Affected: Not Applicable > Support Communication Cross Reference ID: IA01080145 > =A9Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P. > > Hewlett-Packard Company shall not be liable for technical or editorial > errors or omissions contained herein. The information provided is > provided "as is" without warranty of any kind. To the extent permitted > by law, neither HP or its affiliates, subcontractors or suppliers will > be liable for incidental, special or consequential damages including > downtime cost; lost profits; damages relating to the procurement of > substitute products or services; or damages for loss of data, or > software restoration. The information in this document is subject to > change without notice. Hewlett-Packard Company and the names of > Hewlett-Packard products referenced herein are trademarks of Hewlett- > Packard Company in the United States and other countries. Other > product and company names mentioned herein may be trademarks of their > respective owners. Maybe I made a mistake, but when I tried bullet four (sort of), by manually copying back an older version of BACKUPSHR, I found that the DCL command Backup totally failed :-) My solution was to also "restore" the companion version of BACKUP.EXE ... could I have done something wrong, or does this sound like normal behavior and the advisory is lacking ... Verne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:03:04 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: PDP11 / RSX-11M manuals available Message-ID: <467b3beb$0$4307$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net> Thank you!!! -Paul "Robert Boers" wrote in message news:467a479e@news.deckpoint.ch... > We scanned all RSX-11M manuals and other PDP-11 documentation. They are > available for download via: > > http://www.softresint.com/charon-tb/RSX11.htm > > Since they are scanned, the files are big... > > Regards, Robert Boers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:07:46 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Why is SMTP still relevant? Message-ID: <53049$467ae8b7$cef8887a$28739@TEKSAVVY.COM> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > That didn't happen. SMTP is much more firmly entrenched now. > > Also the supposed advantages of X400 can be provided through modern extensions > to SMTP eg TLS without throwing out peoples current investment in SMTP. SMTP is used for both client-server and server-server levels. What I see happening is perhaps the client-server changing. Already, may want people to use the submission port 587 instead of 25 for the PC-server connections. This may evolve more. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:18:10 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Why is SMTP still relevant? Message-ID: In article <53049$467ae8b7$cef8887a$28739@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> That didn't happen. SMTP is much more firmly entrenched now. >> >> Also the supposed advantages of X400 can be provided through modern extensions >> to SMTP eg TLS without throwing out peoples current investment in SMTP. > >SMTP is used for both client-server and server-server levels. What I see >happening is perhaps the client-server changing. Already, may want >people to use the submission port 587 instead of 25 for the PC-server >connections. This may evolve more. I'd regard that as part of a modern SMTP implementation. I think it's defined in RFC 2476. Using SMTP AUTH and TLS for your users with the submission port rather than the standard SMTP port (Port 25) allows you to mandate the use of TLS. Whereas the standard port needs to be able to fallback to non-TLS use when receiving mail from an SMTP MTA which doesn't support TLS. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.337 ************************