INFO-VAX Thu, 28 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 349 Contents: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: Supercomputer rankings RE: Supercomputer rankings Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Tech support Re: Virtual serial ports on a MAC ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 2007 13:43:11 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: In article <5eflmmF389bctU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article <6LXlI81f5YuC@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >>> The compiler pads if you specifiy ALIGNED on the structure declaration, >>> otherwise not. >> >> That may be true for your PL/I compilers, but it's not true in >> general. > > True, as things like C and Pascal don't have any language concept of > "alignment". VMS implementations of C and Pascal certainly have that concept. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 2007 19:02:01 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <5efqh9F36vpmjU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <5eflmmF389bctU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article <6LXlI81f5YuC@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >>>> The compiler pads if you specifiy ALIGNED on the structure declaration, >>>> otherwise not. >>> >>> That may be true for your PL/I compilers, but it's not true in >>> general. >> >> True, as things like C and Pascal don't have any language concept of >> "alignment". > > VMS implementations of C and Pascal certainly have that concept. Within the language or as compiler options? I am not aware of antything in the standards for either language that allowed for alignment and if it is not in the standards (real or de facto) then it is n't the language and it certainly doesn't increase the liklihood that the program could be easily ported. How would you create a C struct containing single character elements and declare them to be "aligned"? Oh yeah, MACRO-11 had it. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:34:39 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <1182976479.389977.301100@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 27, 2:50 am, Michael Kraemer wrote: > Bill Todd schrieb: > > > Again, easy for you to say. The problem, of course, is that it's not > > just the application that dies, it's the customer environment that > > depends upon it - an environment that may not have the resources (or > > even the capability independent of required resources) to work around > > the problem. > > Maybe, but moving to a different-endian archictecture usually > means binary incompatibility anyway, so unless one has a very good > emulator one would have to rebuild the app + environment anyway. > For that, one needs source text + docs, and if these aren't available > or are too difficult to rebuild on a target platform, you're had. Why, to think that any computer company would expect their customers to convert and rebuild all of their software, or buy all new app's just to upgrade to newer hardware is ridiculous. I mean, what company in their right mind would do that? Twice? > Even in my little world I've seen such migration issues, and usually > the answer is to drop the old stuff and look for a new app with > at least similar functionality. Often this might even be a win at the > bottom line because requirements change over a 20 years and are > most probably better matched by new apps than revamped old ones. > And, if you have to buy all new app's and all new hardware, you are no longer locked in to the vendor who caused you all this grief. Makes sense to me. > > There's a reason that IBM mainframes still support 360-era applications, > > you know. > > Yes, surely a lot of customers appreciate that, > but this was only possible because there was no need > to dump/replace the /360/370/390 architecture. IBM always managed > to revamp it in a backward compatible manner, > and still stayed profitable. There are many reasons why IBM is profitable, and thinking about how best to hold on to their customers is one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:05:09 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <1182981909.780983.285470@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jun 27, 4:04 pm, Michael Kraemer wrote: > Doug Phillips schrieb: > > > Why, to think that any computer company would expect their customers > > to convert and rebuild all of their software, or buy all new app's > > just to upgrade to newer hardware is ridiculous. I mean, what company > > in their right mind would do that? Twice? > > I don't get it what you want tell me here. Sorry. I thought the sarcasm was obvious. Please place: and around my statement. > Such things have happened in the past, more than once. > HP: 68k => PA => itanic => x86 ? > SGI: Mips => itanic => x86 > DEC: Vax => alpha => itanic => ? And, how has that worked out for those companies? That was kind of my admittedly obscure point. How is DEC and SGI doing now? We know where DEC is. SGI is losing money but they say: "our business is still in the transition phase." O.k., we'll wait-see. Anyway, migrating because your platform has been killed is not the same as choosing to migrate to another platform. > The only customers who got away w/o a major migration > in the past 15..20 years are those of IBM and Sun, IIRC. > And, Microsoft/Intel, of course. You could argue that Wintel cust's had to "migrate" their software, I guess, but the argument is pretty weak compared to any of those examples. The only comparable migration woes I've seen in the Windows world were for those WinNT customers that believed in Alpha and had to move back to Intel. I'd say, Sun is moving towards x86, but is letting their customers choose the pace. > > And, if you have to buy all new app's and all new hardware, you are no > > longer locked in to the vendor who caused you all this grief. Makes > > sense to me. > > Who says one has to throw away all apps in such cases ? > If they are reasonably recent one may find versions on > the new platform as well. If your current software won't run, and you have to buy new, then you *are* throwing out the old; even if the application is the same. Normally, this involves spending money at least for new licenses, but probably for the new software, too. If you're lucky you might get a discount to buy the same stuff that you've already bought once, or buy it at the "upgrade" price. Maybe your experience is different, but changing hardware platforms has never fallen under any of the software update services I've ever subscribed to; just moving up in performance on the same platform is usually covered (of course there might be additional processor license costs). My point, if I haven't made it clear yet, is that forcing customers to migrate between incompatible platforms hasn't proven to be the best strategy. Seems it's likely to lose a company as many or more customers than it gains; and customers seem to lose trust in such a company. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:05:03 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen schrieb: > VMS implementations of C and Pascal certainly have that concept. Various C compiler's outside VMS have flags to control alignment within structures, but this is an all-nothing-switch and not part of the language. PL/I OTOH has the ALIGNED attribute as part of the language which can be sticked to individual structure members. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:16:48 -0000 From: ja Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: <1182975408.864269.217810@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Jun 26, 10:20 pm, "Gorazd Kikelj" wrote: > "ja" wrote in message > > news:1182887137.550244.102170@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > > > How many people would be interested in running gSOAP on OpenVMS, Alpha > > or Integrity? > > Of those, how many would want to: > > > 1. use OpenVMS as a Web Service client from any native language > > 2. use OpenVMS as a Web Service server from any native language > > 3. both of the above > > > gSOAP is an Open Source initiative. We have ported it to OpenVMS 8.3 > > on Alpha and Integrity as a midnight hack (nothing better to do...). > > > Cheers, John > > Hi John, > > this sounds intriguing. I could certanly use 3. Do this now by hand in cobol > and with perl. This sounds very promissing. > You mention "from any native language"? Also from Cobol? > > Best, Gorazd Yes, definitely from COBOL, and any other language supporting the OpenVMS Calling Standard. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:21:27 -0000 From: ja Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: <1182975687.006429.49280@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 27, 3:30 am, David J Dachtera wrote: > ja wrote: > > > How many people would be interested in running gSOAP on OpenVMS, Alpha > > or Integrity? > > Of those, how many would want to: > > > 1. use OpenVMS as a Web Service client from any native language > > 2. use OpenVMS as a Web Service server from any native language > > 3. both of the above > > > gSOAP is an Open Source initiative. We have ported it to OpenVMS 8.3 > > on Alpha and Integrity as a midnight hack (nothing better to do...). > > (Donning dental smock) > > What is "gSOAP"? > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemshttp://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Pagehttp://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ gSOAP is a cross-platform development environment for C/C++ XML Web services (SOAP1.1/1.2, WSDL1.1). gSOAP supports XML serialization of native C/C++ data types. Includes SOAP/XML engine, Web server, stub/ skeleton compiler, WSDL tools, and much more. See http://sourceforge.net/projects/gsoap2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:24:35 -0000 From: ja Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: <1182975875.654707.324900@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 27, 4:46 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:30:35 -0700, David J Dachtera > > > > wrote: > > ja wrote: > > >> How many people would be interested in running gSOAP on OpenVMS, Alpha > >> or Integrity? > >> Of those, how many would want to: > > >> 1. use OpenVMS as a Web Service client from any native language > >> 2. use OpenVMS as a Web Service server from any native language > >> 3. both of the above > > >> gSOAP is an Open Source initiative. We have ported it to OpenVMS 8.3 > >> on Alpha and Integrity as a midnight hack (nothing better to do...). > > > (Donning dental smock) > > > What is "gSOAP"? > > Gnu licensed Service Oriented Architecture P? > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com Good question! With all the SOAP, WSDL, WS-*, REST, ATOM, whatever discussions going on, it's difficult to know exactly what is what and where they fit in with SOA. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:13:26 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: <4682d2f8$1@flight> Gorazd Kikelj wrote: > "ja" wrote in message > news:1182887137.550244.102170@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >> How many people would be interested in running gSOAP on OpenVMS, Alpha >> or Integrity? >> Of those, how many would want to: >> >> 1. use OpenVMS as a Web Service client from any native language >> 2. use OpenVMS as a Web Service server from any native language >> 3. both of the above > > this sounds intriguing. I could certanly use 3. Do this now by hand in cobol > and with perl. This sounds very promissing. Same here. I currently do SOAP client using perl on VMS (Alpha and soon to be Itanium). I would be very interested in being able to do this directly from a BASIC program. I'm not familiar with the features of gSOAP, does it give you a nice simple way to call a web service by parsing the WSDL? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:19:40 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> Same here. I currently do SOAP client We don't really to know what you do to your clients :-) I use SOAP in the shower every morning though :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:41:14 +0200 From: "Gorazd Kikelj" Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:6e712$4682a123$cef8887a$13503@TEKSAVVY.COM... > Gorazd Kikelj wrote: >> It was normal shared everything OpenVMS DT configuration with 3 sites and >> HBVS. > > I wonder where the 13 seconds came from ? Wouldn't a cluster transition be > faster than that ? Or would this 13 seconds be simply the recnxinterval > parameter set to 13 seconds and it took that long for the surviving nodes > to produce the death certificate for the blown up node ? Keith Parris did the twicking on configuration and he used some conservative values. Reconnect interval is by defauilt 20 seconds and normaly transition will take some more time :-) . With less conservative values it could take considerably less time than 13 seconds to failower, if you need that and have right infrastructure to support it. Best, Gorazd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:00:56 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >>In article <5ef5e8F37dijpU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>>Ummm..... Didn't the exploding datacenter video that has everybody >>>in this group dancing in the street show Windows systems recovering >>>without data loss just like the VMS system, only a little bit slower? >> >> I didn't see anything that convinced me that Windows compares in any >> way to VMS. I saw something that promoted HP's configuration, which >> could readily be due to hardware alone. >> >> More importantly, I didn't see whether VMS was in a shared-everything >> cluster (the way VMSclusters normally operate). Windows just can't >> do that. > > > There you go with all the geek speak again. What will management > types see when they watch that video? And what did HP really want > to show them? All the OSes involved survived in what is presented > as an equal way. When these same managers evaluate what they saw > and the cost of each option, and the industry's acceptance of each > option, which one do you think is going to come out on top? > > >> Disaster recovery is only one capability addressed by VMScluster >> technology, and in my case it's one of the few capabilities I've >> never had to count on. So nothing in the video convinces me in any >> way that I should consider Windows as a viable alternative to VMS. > > > But your a geek. What would a CEO or a COO think? They are the one's > who control the purse strings. Not the geeks locked in the basement. > > And, it still completely ignores the fact that most people here's > hatred for all things MS has blinded them to the fact that the > Windows systems can be both secure and efficient. But I am not > going to convince anyone of that. > > bill > You've convinced me. I am definitely going to enter a Yugo in next year's Indy 500. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:02:53 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: June 27, 2007 8:33 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option >=20 [snip...] > > If Windows server consolidation were really really taken to the > limit, > > you might find Windows has a small presence in the real data centres > > because like for unix and vms and MVS, they'd have one box to do > their work. >=20 > If Windows were consolidated at the rate of 10:1 it would still > outnumber > VMS by at least 100:1. People here really need to face reality. > Windows > is not as bad as you would like to think. Just because a bunch of > home > machines (mostly running the original Windows install they came with) > get > hacked doesn't mean that the boxes in the datacenter are that easy to > break. >=20 > bill >=20 [snip...] Bill, What upsets readers on this list is when people like you make statements like "Windows is not as bad as people here state that it is" when in fact many of the readers here manage mission critical environments and the concept of testing applications against *monthly* security patches released by the host vendor is just plain ludicrous.=20 Readers here take security patches seriously and ensure they get applied asap. This might happen once or twice every few years with OpenVMS. Could be better? Possibly, but 5-20 security patches every month with Linux and Windows? Then folks like you state "Windows can do the same job as OpenVMS.." I deal with Windows, UNIX and OpenVMS environments and during consolidation engagements talk all the time to Operations / Apps groups and their managers about their major challenges... getting Windows servers and the associated huge management issues under control is by far the absolute biggest issue raised by these groups. When looking at server consolidation, the number of Wintel server consolidation targets is usually something like 70-80% Wintel as the primary focus today.=20 The readers here on this newsgroup are not from the "just reboot it" stream of managing IT. When a problem occurs on OpenVMS, it is usually thoroughly analyzed to ensure it does not happen again. Detailed register information is available in system error logs so you can decode which bits are set in which device registers. This provides one with the ability to properly troubleshoot a problem down to a bus or device level. I am sorry if it bothers you, but you seem to be unique in not having the same challenges in operationally managing large numbers of Wintel servers as most other med to large Customers today. It is not to say IT is not that important in a University environment (I know it is), but it just does not compare to many mission critical environments in private industry today (e.g. OpenVMS lottery I was at a number of weeks here in Canada measured down time during bigger pots at $1.5M/hr.) Check this out for what challenges the real world is facing today: http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm "Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical systems on Windows-based computers for many years, a customer experienced a virus in one of these systems that shut down production for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed, restored and tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at no small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established standard, Vsystem on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for the next system to be replaced." Another major issue - The reality is that the plain fact is that the most common method of troubleshooting Windows servers today is to simply reboot it. Even those who have experience with other platforms look at Windows event logs and find minimal information beyond a basic cryptic message (e.g. sample error - scsi error xxxx0906, which means not a whole lot if you have 4 or 5 different scsi devices on 2 or 3 different SCSI buses). This type of error means they will likely have to just reboot the server. When the folks here state Windows servers do not have the same bullet proof operational capabilities of OpenVMS, they are usually talking from experience and dealing with OpenVMS and "hardened" Wintel server environments.=20 It is not OS religion that drives the "Windows can not match OpenVMS" statements in this newsgroup, but rather a form of educating the less enlightened who do not really understand mission critical support requirements. Unfortunately, sometimes it is like talking to teenagers - "talk to the hand..". These "kids" are just going to have to go out and experience for themselves what those with more experience tried to tell them in the first place. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:17:27 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Supercomputer rankings Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > JF Mezei writes: > >>A new list is to be made available today. A glimpse of the architectures: >> >>## >>Intel managed to increase its lead over Advanced Micro Devices in the >>number of systems using x86 processors. Just over half--52 percent--of >>the systems use Intel's x86 chips, up from 45.6 percent, while AMD's >>share shrunk from a 22.6 percent share to 21.2 percent. > > > Yes, but what of the AMD64? COuld it be that the decrease in > AMD's x86 use was offset by an increase in amd64 use? I know > the two servers I just got to set up this Summer for use this > Fall are both amd64. And based on discussions with my boss, > it is unlikley that anything not destined for the desktop will > be less than amd64 from now on. Can't say how soon the desktops > will start moving that way. > > >> Intel's Itanium >>processors are beginning to move off the list, appearing in 28 of the >>500 systems, down from last year's count of 35. >>## >> >> >>40% of the top 500 are from HP. >> >>The 28 out of 500 systems based on that IA64 thing represent 0.056% of >>the total. Not quite "maintream" , "commodity" or "industry standard" >>that HP would like us to believe. > > > Itanium is totally irrelevant. Even dicussing it any more is laughable. > > bill > 5.6%, not .056% But what's two orders of magnitude amongst people whose minds are already made up? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:34:12 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Supercomputer rankings Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Santos [mailto:john@egh.com] > Sent: June 27, 2007 8:17 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Supercomputer rankings >=20 > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article , > > JF Mezei writes: > > > >>A new list is to be made available today. A glimpse of the > architectures: > >> > >>## > >>Intel managed to increase its lead over Advanced Micro Devices in > the > >>number of systems using x86 processors. Just over half--52 percent-- > of > >>the systems use Intel's x86 chips, up from 45.6 percent, while AMD's > >>share shrunk from a 22.6 percent share to 21.2 percent. > > > > > > Yes, but what of the AMD64? COuld it be that the decrease in > > AMD's x86 use was offset by an increase in amd64 use? I know > > the two servers I just got to set up this Summer for use this > > Fall are both amd64. And based on discussions with my boss, > > it is unlikley that anything not destined for the desktop will > > be less than amd64 from now on. Can't say how soon the desktops > > will start moving that way. > > > > > >> Intel's > Itanium > >>processors are beginning to move off the list, appearing in 28 of > the > >>500 systems, down from last year's count of 35. > >>## > >> > >> > >>40% of the top 500 are from HP. > >> > >>The 28 out of 500 systems based on that IA64 thing represent 0.056% > of > >>the total. Not quite "maintream" , "commodity" or "industry > standard" > >>that HP would like us to believe. > > > > > > Itanium is totally irrelevant. Even dicussing it any more is > laughable. > > > > bill > > >=20 > 5.6%, not .056% But what's two orders of magnitude amongst people > whose > minds are already made up? >=20 > -- > John Santos > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539 John - good point. Its hard to imagine there are other animals on the farm when someone spends all their time in the chicken coop. :-) Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 2007 14:20:22 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: <3hvjediFZrEF@cuebid.zko.hp.com> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > The first level support people USED to know enough to get you to the > right second level support person. I do recall one call when I finally > had to tell the first level support "I don't think we're speaking the > same language" (and I didn't mean English; the guy just didn't know the > subject matter) and asked to speak with Smiley Smith who did speak my > language very well! Thank you Smiley, wherever you are. Ah, yes -- Smiley! Way back when, he helped me solve several confusing networking issues. Even among the rest of the support staff at CXO, he was a legend! -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:33:04 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: <4682BB70.8030007@comcast.net> Rob Brooks wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >>The first level support people USED to know enough to get you to the >>right second level support person. I do recall one call when I finally >>had to tell the first level support "I don't think we're speaking the >>same language" (and I didn't mean English; the guy just didn't know the >>subject matter) and asked to speak with Smiley Smith who did speak my >>language very well! Thank you Smiley, wherever you are. > > > Ah, yes -- Smiley! Way back when, he helped me solve several > confusing networking issues. > > Even among the rest of the support staff at CXO, he was a legend! > He earned his legend! Back in those days, UCX was a nightmare. I believe it was a port of the Berkeley code but done eight or ten years after TGV, Wollongong and a couple of the other players had done their ports. To say that it didn't work very well, or that it was not very well documented is a classic understatement! Smiley generally knew exactly where a couple of swift kicks would do the most good, or had a clear explanation of what the documentation SHOULD have said. ISTR I first met him ca. 1994 when I was trying to get UCX to act as a DNS server and to straighten out the nightmare that was UCX SMTP. I was under qualified for the job but there was no one else to do it. I learned a lot and got both jobs done with a lot of help from Smiley, Karol Zielonko and a few other people whose names I've forgotten. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 2007 16:00:34 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > I learned a lot and got both jobs done with a lot of help from Smiley, > Karol Zielonko and a few other people whose names I've forgotten. Karol is now an engineer with the TCP/IP group. -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:39:42 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: <4682CB0E.6000101@comcast.net> Rob Brooks wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >>I learned a lot and got both jobs done with a lot of help from Smiley, >>Karol Zielonko and a few other people whose names I've forgotten. > > > Karol is now an engineer with the TCP/IP group. > I believe Karol was an engineer with the TCP/IP group back in 1994 as well. My SMTP case was handed over to him after upgrading VMS to V5.5-2 and UCX from 2.7e to 3.3 ECO something-or-other (whatever was the latest in, say, October of 1994 failed to resolve my problems). SMTP was seriously broken in many ways, not the least of which was ANALYZE MAIL which was supposed to help but, in reality, made matters even worse. I had the ideal test platform; we handled mail for some 2000 faculty and students at the, then, Philadelphia College of Textiles and Science (now Philadelphia University). When I started there in August 1994 the system was choked with undelivered and undeliverable mail! By the time we got up to ECO-14 (!!!!!) it was working reasonably well. Karol may not remember me but I doubt if he will ever forget that system and the four to six months he worked on it! UCX SMTP was pretty close to being a reliable product by the time he was done! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:02:37 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: In article <8660a3a10706270446r5788bbnabdff50d1a0996b5@mail.gmail.com>, "William Webb" wrote: > I have suggested to several senior people at HP that they need to add > a field to > whatever screen it is that comes up when they locate an individual in > connection > with a support contract that indicates something like "This customer > knows what the heck he's talking about." > > That way it would bypass the almost-obligatory ten or fifteen minutes > spent in attempts to explain the reason for your call to a Level 1 > support technician who > may or may not understand what you're talking about. This is where I used to like submitting problem reports through DSNlink, when possible. A succint problem statement (with concise reproducer if available) usually got a swift response. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:32:46 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: Hi Paul, > This is where I used to like submitting problem reports through DSNlink, > when possible. A succint problem statement (with concise reproducer if > available) usually got a swift response. Now that was a useful service! Is it true that it's still available in the states, or that it was only Europe wher it was canned? Cheers Richard Maher "P. Sture" wrote in message news:paul.sture.nospam-0192D2.00023728062007@mac.sture.ch... > In article <8660a3a10706270446r5788bbnabdff50d1a0996b5@mail.gmail.com>, > "William Webb" wrote: > > > I have suggested to several senior people at HP that they need to add > > a field to > > whatever screen it is that comes up when they locate an individual in > > connection > > with a support contract that indicates something like "This customer > > knows what the heck he's talking about." > > > > That way it would bypass the almost-obligatory ten or fifteen minutes > > spent in attempts to explain the reason for your call to a Level 1 > > support technician who > > may or may not understand what you're talking about. > > This is where I used to like submitting problem reports through DSNlink, > when possible. A succint problem statement (with concise reproducer if > available) usually got a swift response. > > -- > Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:23:32 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: <8660a3a10706271923s4acdd661o497fd2d98ef736c8@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/07, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Paul, > > > This is where I used to like submitting problem reports through DSNlink, > > when possible. A succint problem statement (with concise reproducer if > > available) usually got a swift response. > > Now that was a useful service! > > Is it true that it's still available in the states, or that it was only > Europe wher it was canned? > > Cheers Richard Maher > > "P. Sture" wrote in message > news:paul.sture.nospam-0192D2.00023728062007@mac.sture.ch... > > In article <8660a3a10706270446r5788bbnabdff50d1a0996b5@mail.gmail.com>, > > "William Webb" wrote: > > > > > I have suggested to several senior people at HP that they need to add > > > a field to > > > whatever screen it is that comes up when they locate an individual in > > > connection > > > with a support contract that indicates something like "This customer > > > knows what the heck he's talking about." > > > > > > That way it would bypass the almost-obligatory ten or fifteen minutes > > > spent in attempts to explain the reason for your call to a Level 1 > > > support technician who > > > may or may not understand what you're talking about. > > > > This is where I used to like submitting problem reports through DSNlink, > > when possible. A succint problem statement (with concise reproducer if > > available) usually got a swift response. > > > > -- > > Paul Sture > > > DSNlink is no more-- anywhere. One example of a tool which was abandoned because it wasn't "standard", only to be replaced by a vastly inferior solution. Golden Eggs was another. WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:33:02 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> ...turn something as complex and inportant as this over to > > uneducated and pretty much uneducatable people like that. > > Now, exactly what is the difference between uneducatable people > just about anyware from, say , those in the US? Significant communication problems caused by gross differences in pronunciation and phraseology (and sometimes even degraded line quality over distance). Every additional impediment worsens the situation. > > I'd say that the world at large have more issues with both > uneducated and uneducatable people i the US then anyware else. Complete agreement there - but as you go on to observe below completely irrelevant as well in the current context. > Since they have the power to but behind their lack of knowledge. > > But then, we aren't talking about VMS anymore, are we ? :-) > > I find it very distracting to put the blame on the people > of India for what business decisions HP happens to make. I'm not sure where you got that impression: the choice, and any resulting blame, are clearly HP's, and the earlier posts don't seem to suggest otherwise. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:11:47 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: Tech support Message-ID: <5egn7kF38idinU1@mid.individual.net> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Paul, > >> This is where I used to like submitting problem reports through DSNlink, >> when possible. A succint problem statement (with concise reproducer if >> available) usually got a swift response. > > Now that was a useful service! > > Is it true that it's still available in the states, or that it was only > Europe wher it was canned? It was turned off in the US about 2 years ago (perhaps more... time flies and all that). For a while, you could still query the database, but you couldn't submit new problems. There was also the ability for CSC folks to do remote logins via DSNlink. That may, or may not, still be active. It was scheduled to be shut down completely at the end of last year, but I don't know if they did given that one largish corporate customer still didn't have an acceptable replacement working. -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:05:23 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Virtual serial ports on a MAC ? Message-ID: <7XCgi.2244$s%.1592@trnddc02> Stephen Hoffman wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >> Traditional mac software expect 2 serial ports, the modem port and the >> printer port. For some time, new macs have not had serial ports. I >> think one is expected to buy some USB gizmo. > > > You mean a USB missile launcher, or a USB refrigerator, or a USB > earthquake sensor and postal scale, or a USB thermal and humidity probe, > or a USB joystick, or USB holiday decorations? Some cell phones now use > USB for charging. Dude, start buying yourself some USB gizmos. Enough > gizmos keep most anyone entertained. > > Most of the Mac laptops offer USB, GbE, 802.11n and Firewire, though a > few of the current Macs also do offer serial ports. The laptops and the > low-end boxes tend not to offer serial connections. Modems are > typically external. > >> Since MACs are now Unix under the hood, is there any software that >> could generate virtual serial ports that could be mapped to some >> remote node ? > > > I'm aware of no host-based terminal server software, though most any > competent programmer could certainly easily create something. > > Or a Mac with a serial port could be acquired. > > Alternatively, seriously massive quantities of hardware could be > thrown at this problem: there are ExpressCard adapters that break out > into full PCI cages. > > Or there's the cheap, effective and expedient approach: a USB to > serial adapter. > >> I guess the more obvious would be LAT or Telnet connection to some >> terminal server. > > > Telnet. LAT is long gone, and finding and porting a LAT server > package for Mac OS X would be an entertaining and involved project. > Check out latd. It has both client and server. Others have reported some problems with it, but it has worked okay for me under very light use. I haven't tried to script it or pipe it or anything like that, though. (latd 1.21 on Mac OS X 10.4.9 PowerPC.) >> But ideally, I wouldnt mind being able to use the serial ports I have >> on a vax and connect one or two to the mac from time to time. (eg: rum >> my PDA's backup software so that I can backup an old trusty PSION that >> has a serial cable to the vax). >> >> Any ideas ? > > > Sure. Write some code for the OpenVMS box, or pay somebody to write > the code for you. > > Alternatively, a USB to serial adapter is available from somewhere > between US$10 and US$40 list according to various web sites, and it is > likely these can be found for less (even when translated into the local > Loonies) from some big bin at a local electronics wholesale or gadget > retailer place. > > To continue stay within the charter of this group, OpenVMS I64 itself > now tends to expect USB to serial widgets for many of these same tasks. > There are USB drivers on the Freeware, and there's a better set of > drivers built into OpenVMS V8.3. > > I've been using a Keyspan adapter. Not the cheapest, but it was > available when I was looking for it, and it works. > > Or retire the current serial device you have, and get something with > Bluetooth capabilities, and use iSynch or other tools -- far more > effective, far less hardware, and you're not tied to a serial > connection. iSynch is very, very convenient. > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.349 ************************