INFO-VAX Tue, 10 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 373 Contents: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? RE: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th MX Mail relay Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: SEARCH: expected result? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th RE: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:39:26 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Message-ID: On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:25:50 -0700, Jim Mehlhop = wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> If I do >>> $ SHO DEV GG >>> only one device shows up, $1$GGA2: so that when used as argument to >>> set host/scsi gets me to the prompt >>> HSG80-TOP> > > You could also > > HSG80-TOP> other_controller (think that is the correct command) > > to get to the other controller. This would not cause VMS to make a = > switch. Assuming you are running dual controller. > > That doesn't work. I did have a vague recollection that there was some = way to do what you are suggesting, but I don't see it from the commands HSG80-BOT>? Your options are: ADD CLEAR_ERRORS CONFIGURATION CREATE_PARTITION DELETE DESTROY_PARTITION DIRECTORY EXIT HELP INITIALIZE LOCATE MIRROR POWEROFF REDUCE REINITIALIZE RENAME RESTART RETRY_ERRORS RUN SELFTEST SET SHOW SHUTDOWN TERMINATE UNMIRROR WWID_ASSIGN > > >>> >>> So I guess the above device name is generic to the HSG80 itself and >>> not a specific controller. Each node has 2 HBAs connected to 2 = >>> switches, >>> cross-strapped to the 2 HSG80 controllers. >>> >>> The objective is to connect to the other controller through SET = >>> HOST/SCSI >>> to run frutil, for cache battery replacement. Of course, I could us= e a >>> console cable, but this is more convenient. >> Use SHOW DEVICE/FULL on $1$GGA2 to display the available paths, and = = >> determine >> which path is associated with which controller. Then, SET >> DEVICE/SWITCH/PATH=3DPGnu... to be able to communicate with the "othe= r" = >> HSG. >> -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:04:21 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > Jim Mehlhop wrote: >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> Tom Linden wrote: >>>> If I do $ SHO DEV GG >>>> only one device shows up, $1$GGA2: so that when used as argument to >>>> set host/scsi gets me to the prompt >>>> HSG80-TOP> >> >> You could also >> HSG80-TOP> other_controller (think that is the correct command) >> to get to the other controller. This would not cause VMS to make a >> switch. Assuming you are running dual controller. > > That doesn't work. I did have a vague recollection that there was some way > to do what you are suggesting, but I don't see it from the commands All controller-related commands take THIS_CONTROLLER and OTHER_CONTROLLER (as the first parameter, IIRC), so you can remote control the other controller. E.g. HSG80-TOP> SHOW THIS HSG80-TOP> SHOW OTHER HTH, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:22:29 -0700 From: pos Subject: Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Message-ID: <1184026949.820958.152700@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Hmm. Cannot see HP letting of VMS because of all the juicy service revenue they get from hardware and software (esp. lics) contracts. Not that much of that revene gets re-invested back into VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 19:29:59 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <008101c7c289$72c4b2b0$584e1810$@com> Guess I am too used to UNIX, Mainframes, Windows, Macs and such. The BACKSPACE key works fine, but the PC/Mac DELETE key is what I was after. Darn... Thanks for the information. It was both well written and informative. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:53 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Delete Key? > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > That is because the frustration is killing me. :) > > > > Aw well- > > Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a PC > or a > > Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the little > Alpha > > machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode it > does. > > The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line > closes up. > > That is because the key labeled backspace is sending an ASCII delete > code, as per standard terminal emulation and is what real terminals do. > > Some real terminals, and most terminal emulators can configure that key > to send a backspace to make it easier to use some operating systems. > > > When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see the > pesky > > DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC keyboard. > And by > > golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE the > block. > > > But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: > > > > ABCDEFG > > ^-------- Cursor is here > > > > > > > > ABDEFG > > ^---------- Cursor is still here > > > > Surely there is some way to do this... > > The ASCII character set does not have a code to do that type of delete, > which is to delete the character under the cursor and then shift the > line to fill in. > > That is because ASCII/ANSI terminals traditionally do not keep track of > the characters on the line or the screen. The action of the keys is > totally interpreted by the host. > > Only some terminals will even support the escape sequences that will do > that delete and shift the characters, so software that presents that > functionality on needs to be able to fall back rewriting the line and > remembering to write spaces over the end. > > This is much different than on a 3270 type terminal in which you do > local editing and then send the result up to the host a screen at a > time. > > The key cluster on the newer VT series keyboard which contains the > remove key came later in the development of ANSI terminals, and is an > optional feature, so older software could not depend on it being > present. > > Which means that line editing software historically would not be using > those escape sequences. So the new keys became shortcuts for other > editing functions. > > By the way, TPU is not an editor, it is an editing programming > language. > EDIT/TPU invokes the EVE editor which is written in TPU, and the > source is [optionally?] installed sys$examples. > > For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does > the > delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 terminals > up to the current. > > Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to > look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be a > standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard layouts. > My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and > they > are from the same vendor. > > I do not use TPU in EVE keypad mode, and I would have to look up what > it > does. It looks to me that the EVE keypad mode was designed for the > original PC keyboard markings, a marking pattern that I have never seen > on a terminal supported by VMS for use with EVE. > > EVE allows you to redefine any of the application keys to do anything > that you want. > > Every thing that I have seen other than working 3270 emulators on > Microsoft Windows, VMS, and LINUX treats the VT "remove" or PC "delete" > key as a "cut" operation on a previously selected range, and on > occasion > to imply a select of the current word before the cut. > > So while you can easily change EVE (TPU) to do what you want, you will > face the same problem on just about every other application. > > -John > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:35:45 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <009101c7c292$a304e810$e90eb830$@com> This now begins to make sense. It is complicated a little because I normally use a laptop pc, without a separate keypad. I kept trying to remap that key and it insisted on putting commas in the text and not deleting, until I issued a "set keypad edt" command, and voila- it started working. Sweet! Now for another dumb but related question; is there a "rc" like file for the editor I can setup so that the editor will automatically issue that command every time I start it? Also, I am really amazed; I had no idea the editor was bound to the keyboard. I'm kind of a "vi" guy, and tend to do everything without takig my hands off the keyboard, when I can. If anyone needs help with vi, let me know. I taught my infamous "VI AT GUNPOINT" class for many years. 10 mins of lecture, and 40 minutes of lab results in a user who can use vi. :) -Paul > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:53 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Delete Key? > > > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > That is because the frustration is killing me. :) > > > > > > Aw well- > > > Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a > PC > > or a > > > Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the little > > Alpha > > > machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode it > > does. > > > The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line > > closes up. > > > > That is because the key labeled backspace is sending an ASCII delete > > code, as per standard terminal emulation and is what real terminals > do. > > > > Some real terminals, and most terminal emulators can configure that > key > > to send a backspace to make it easier to use some operating systems. > > > > > When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see > the > > pesky > > > DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC keyboard. > > And by > > > golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE > the > > block. > > > > > But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: > > > > > > ABCDEFG > > > ^-------- Cursor is here > > > > > > > > > > > > ABDEFG > > > ^---------- Cursor is still here > > > > > > Surely there is some way to do this... > > > > The ASCII character set does not have a code to do that type of > delete, > > which is to delete the character under the cursor and then shift the > > line to fill in. > > > > That is because ASCII/ANSI terminals traditionally do not keep track > of > > the characters on the line or the screen. The action of the keys is > > totally interpreted by the host. > > > > Only some terminals will even support the escape sequences that will > do > > that delete and shift the characters, so software that presents that > > functionality on needs to be able to fall back rewriting the line and > > remembering to write spaces over the end. > > > > This is much different than on a 3270 type terminal in which you do > > local editing and then send the result up to the host a screen at a > > time. > > > > The key cluster on the newer VT series keyboard which contains the > > remove key came later in the development of ANSI terminals, and is an > > optional feature, so older software could not depend on it being > > present. > > > > Which means that line editing software historically would not be > using > > those escape sequences. So the new keys became shortcuts for other > > editing functions. > > > > By the way, TPU is not an editor, it is an editing programming > > language. > > EDIT/TPU invokes the EVE editor which is written in TPU, and the > > source is [optionally?] installed sys$examples. > > > > For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does > > the > > delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 > terminals > > up to the current. > > > > Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to > > look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be > a > > standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard > layouts. > > My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and > > they > > are from the same vendor. > > > > I do not use TPU in EVE keypad mode, and I would have to look up what > > it > > does. It looks to me that the EVE keypad mode was designed for the > > original PC keyboard markings, a marking pattern that I have never > seen > > on a terminal supported by VMS for use with EVE. > > > > EVE allows you to redefine any of the application keys to do anything > > that you want. > > > > Every thing that I have seen other than working 3270 emulators on > > Microsoft Windows, VMS, and LINUX treats the VT "remove" or PC > "delete" > > key as a "cut" operation on a previously selected range, and on > > occasion > > to imply a select of the current word before the cut. > > > > So while you can easily change EVE (TPU) to do what you want, you > will > > face the same problem on just about every other application. > > > > -John > > wb8tyw@qsl.network > > Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:39:11 -0600 From: Jim Mehlhop Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <4692FF5F.5070309@mehlhop.org> There is an initialization file you can put the set keypad edt into SYS6$ sho log eve$init %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name EVE$INIT SYS6$ sho def DISK$USER1:[MEHLHOP] SYS6$ create eve$init.eve set keypad edt Exit SYS6$ def/job eve$init sys$login:eve$init.eve SYS6$ edit xyz.abc Buffer: XYZ.ABC | Write | Insert | Forward Executing commands in initialization file: DISK$USER1:[MEHLHOP]EVE$INIT.EVE;1 Paul Raulerson wrote: > This now begins to make sense. It is complicated a little because I normally > use a laptop pc, without a separate keypad. > > I kept trying to remap that key and it insisted on putting commas in the > text and not deleting, until I issued a "set keypad edt" command, and voila- > it started working. Sweet! > > Now for another dumb but related question; is there a "rc" like file for the > editor I can setup so that the editor will automatically issue that command > every time I start it? > > Also, I am really amazed; I had no idea the editor was bound to the > keyboard. I'm kind of a "vi" guy, and tend to do everything without takig my > hands off the keyboard, when I can. > > If anyone needs help with vi, let me know. I taught my infamous "VI AT > GUNPOINT" class for many years. 10 mins of lecture, and 40 minutes of lab > results in a user who can use vi. :) > > -Paul > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] >>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:53 PM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Delete Key? >>> >>> Paul Raulerson wrote: >>>> That is because the frustration is killing me. :) >>>> >>>> Aw well- >>>> Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a >> PC >>> or a >>>> Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the little >>> Alpha >>>> machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode it >>> does. >>>> The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line >>> closes up. >>> >>> That is because the key labeled backspace is sending an ASCII delete >>> code, as per standard terminal emulation and is what real terminals >> do. >>> Some real terminals, and most terminal emulators can configure that >> key >>> to send a backspace to make it easier to use some operating systems. >>> >>>> When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see >> the >>> pesky >>>> DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC keyboard. >>> And by >>>> golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE >> the >>> block. >>> >>>> But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: >>>> >>>> ABCDEFG >>>> ^-------- Cursor is here >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ABDEFG >>>> ^---------- Cursor is still here >>>> >>>> Surely there is some way to do this... >>> The ASCII character set does not have a code to do that type of >> delete, >>> which is to delete the character under the cursor and then shift the >>> line to fill in. >>> >>> That is because ASCII/ANSI terminals traditionally do not keep track >> of >>> the characters on the line or the screen. The action of the keys is >>> totally interpreted by the host. >>> >>> Only some terminals will even support the escape sequences that will >> do >>> that delete and shift the characters, so software that presents that >>> functionality on needs to be able to fall back rewriting the line and >>> remembering to write spaces over the end. >>> >>> This is much different than on a 3270 type terminal in which you do >>> local editing and then send the result up to the host a screen at a >>> time. >>> >>> The key cluster on the newer VT series keyboard which contains the >>> remove key came later in the development of ANSI terminals, and is an >>> optional feature, so older software could not depend on it being >>> present. >>> >>> Which means that line editing software historically would not be >> using >>> those escape sequences. So the new keys became shortcuts for other >>> editing functions. >>> >>> By the way, TPU is not an editor, it is an editing programming >>> language. >>> EDIT/TPU invokes the EVE editor which is written in TPU, and the >>> source is [optionally?] installed sys$examples. >>> >>> For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does >>> the >>> delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 >> terminals >>> up to the current. >>> >>> Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to >>> look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be >> a >>> standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard >> layouts. >>> My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and >>> they >>> are from the same vendor. >>> >>> I do not use TPU in EVE keypad mode, and I would have to look up what >>> it >>> does. It looks to me that the EVE keypad mode was designed for the >>> original PC keyboard markings, a marking pattern that I have never >> seen >>> on a terminal supported by VMS for use with EVE. >>> >>> EVE allows you to redefine any of the application keys to do anything >>> that you want. >>> >>> Every thing that I have seen other than working 3270 emulators on >>> Microsoft Windows, VMS, and LINUX treats the VT "remove" or PC >> "delete" >>> key as a "cut" operation on a previously selected range, and on >>> occasion >>> to imply a select of the current word before the cut. >>> >>> So while you can easily change EVE (TPU) to do what you want, you >> will >>> face the same problem on just about every other application. >>> >>> -John >>> wb8tyw@qsl.network >>> Personal Opinion Only > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 23:10:13 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <000001c7c2a8$37b9b480$a72d1d80$@com> Thank you Jim! -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Mehlhop [mailto:mehlhop@mehlhop.org] > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:39 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Delete Key? > > There is an initialization file you can put the set keypad edt into > > SYS6$ sho log eve$init > %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name EVE$INIT > SYS6$ sho def > DISK$USER1:[MEHLHOP] > SYS6$ create eve$init.eve > set keypad edt > Exit > SYS6$ def/job eve$init sys$login:eve$init.eve > > SYS6$ edit xyz.abc > > > > > Buffer: XYZ.ABC | Write | Insert > | > Forward > > Executing commands in initialization file: > DISK$USER1:[MEHLHOP]EVE$INIT.EVE;1 > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > This now begins to make sense. It is complicated a little because I > normally > > use a laptop pc, without a separate keypad. > > > > I kept trying to remap that key and it insisted on putting commas in > the > > text and not deleting, until I issued a "set keypad edt" command, and > voila- > > it started working. Sweet! > > > > Now for another dumb but related question; is there a "rc" like file > for the > > editor I can setup so that the editor will automatically issue that > command > > every time I start it? > > > > Also, I am really amazed; I had no idea the editor was bound to the > > keyboard. I'm kind of a "vi" guy, and tend to do everything without > takig my > > hands off the keyboard, when I can. > > > > If anyone needs help with vi, let me know. I taught my infamous "VI > AT > > GUNPOINT" class for many years. 10 mins of lecture, and 40 minutes of > lab > > results in a user who can use vi. :) > > > > -Paul > > > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] > >>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:53 PM > >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >>> Subject: Delete Key? > >>> > >>> Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>>> That is because the frustration is killing me. :) > >>>> > >>>> Aw well- > >>>> Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a > >> PC > >>> or a > >>>> Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the > little > >>> Alpha > >>>> machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode > it > >>> does. > >>>> The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line > >>> closes up. > >>> > >>> That is because the key labeled backspace is sending an ASCII > delete > >>> code, as per standard terminal emulation and is what real terminals > >> do. > >>> Some real terminals, and most terminal emulators can configure that > >> key > >>> to send a backspace to make it easier to use some operating > systems. > >>> > >>>> When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see > >> the > >>> pesky > >>>> DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC > keyboard. > >>> And by > >>>> golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE > >> the > >>> block. > >>> > >>>> But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: > >>>> > >>>> ABCDEFG > >>>> ^-------- Cursor is here > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ABDEFG > >>>> ^---------- Cursor is still here > >>>> > >>>> Surely there is some way to do this... > >>> The ASCII character set does not have a code to do that type of > >> delete, > >>> which is to delete the character under the cursor and then shift > the > >>> line to fill in. > >>> > >>> That is because ASCII/ANSI terminals traditionally do not keep > track > >> of > >>> the characters on the line or the screen. The action of the keys > is > >>> totally interpreted by the host. > >>> > >>> Only some terminals will even support the escape sequences that > will > >> do > >>> that delete and shift the characters, so software that presents > that > >>> functionality on needs to be able to fall back rewriting the line > and > >>> remembering to write spaces over the end. > >>> > >>> This is much different than on a 3270 type terminal in which you do > >>> local editing and then send the result up to the host a screen at a > >>> time. > >>> > >>> The key cluster on the newer VT series keyboard which contains the > >>> remove key came later in the development of ANSI terminals, and is > an > >>> optional feature, so older software could not depend on it being > >>> present. > >>> > >>> Which means that line editing software historically would not be > >> using > >>> those escape sequences. So the new keys became shortcuts for other > >>> editing functions. > >>> > >>> By the way, TPU is not an editor, it is an editing programming > >>> language. > >>> EDIT/TPU invokes the EVE editor which is written in TPU, and the > >>> source is [optionally?] installed sys$examples. > >>> > >>> For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma > does > >>> the > >>> delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 > >> terminals > >>> up to the current. > >>> > >>> Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have > to > >>> look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to > be > >> a > >>> standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard > >> layouts. > >>> My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and > >>> they > >>> are from the same vendor. > >>> > >>> I do not use TPU in EVE keypad mode, and I would have to look up > what > >>> it > >>> does. It looks to me that the EVE keypad mode was designed for the > >>> original PC keyboard markings, a marking pattern that I have never > >> seen > >>> on a terminal supported by VMS for use with EVE. > >>> > >>> EVE allows you to redefine any of the application keys to do > anything > >>> that you want. > >>> > >>> Every thing that I have seen other than working 3270 emulators on > >>> Microsoft Windows, VMS, and LINUX treats the VT "remove" or PC > >> "delete" > >>> key as a "cut" operation on a previously selected range, and on > >>> occasion > >>> to imply a select of the current word before the cut. > >>> > >>> So while you can easily change EVE (TPU) to do what you want, you > >> will > >>> face the same problem on just about every other application. > >>> > >>> -John > >>> wb8tyw@qsl.network > >>> Personal Opinion Only > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:34:12 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 19:29, Paul Raulerson wrote: > Guess I am too used to UNIX, Mainframes, Windows, Macs and such. The > BACKSPACE key works fine, but the PC/Mac DELETE key is what I was after. > Darn... Thanks for the information. It was both well written and > informative. > -Paul Heh, I figured that was your problem. What editor do you use? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:35:55 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <0VEki.45396$aP2.25660@newsfe16.lga> On 07/09/07 20:35, Paul Raulerson wrote: > This now begins to make sense. It is complicated a little because I normally > use a laptop pc, without a separate keypad. > > I kept trying to remap that key and it insisted on putting commas in the > text and not deleting, until I issued a "set keypad edt" command, and voila- > it started working. Sweet! > > Now for another dumb but related question; is there a "rc" like file for the > editor I can setup so that the editor will automatically issue that command > every time I start it? EVE$INIT.EVE > Also, I am really amazed; I had no idea the editor was bound to the > keyboard. I'm kind of a "vi" guy, and tend to do everything without takig my > hands off the keyboard, when I can. vim for VMS does exist. > If anyone needs help with vi, let me know. I taught my infamous "VI AT > GUNPOINT" class for many years. 10 mins of lecture, and 40 minutes of lab > results in a user who can use vi. :) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:20:01 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > > > $ exit(2928) > > %SYSTEM-W-NOMSG ? Or are you using a different version of VMS? Oops, sorry. 8.3 here According to Google that also worked with 7.3-2, but it gives NOMSG on Eisnerr (V7.2-1). %SYSTEM-W-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 18:51:30 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5ffediF3crcuqU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: July 9, 2007 11:31 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>=20 > > [snip..] > >>> You also need IE, Firefox or some other browser >> on the >> > server to use these admin packages locally. The same is true for >> other >> > platforms as well. >>=20 >> Same rules. Just because you have IE doesn't mean you should be >> surfing >> the web from the server. if you don't connect to untrusted >> machines you >> don't have to worry about infection. They're servers for god's >> sake. if >> you want to google soemthing go back to your desk. >>=20 > > Point is that just by the fact that these services are on the server and > being used means that all IE and IIS related security patches need to be > applied. (and these 2 puppies are likely the most hacked and patched > programs on the planet). No, they don't. I fthey never have access to or from untrusted networks they do not. I suggested using only localhost or a private network but, as usual, you just changed the rules and said they can't do that. It's all about risk and its mitigation. If you insist that you must runin an unsecure environment then no OS is going to be safe. > >> > >> > In addition, many SAN Mgmt appliances that control your entire >> SAN with >> > all your data are simply web based Windows or Linux servers. Some >> do not >> > even have a command line option. Its all locked down and done >> with a GUI >> > (appliance approach). >>=20 >> Same thing. Just because they have to run a web server doesn't >> mean >> you have to let anyone from outside the box access it. If an >> outsider >> can't see the web server they can't attack it. >>=20 > > It also makes it difficult to manage remotely and for it to send alerts > remotely (page, email etc) when something happens. Remote management is > no longer a nice to have - it is critical. See, new set of rules. Remote can still be done from your private network using VPN so that even when you are remote your are connected to the secure network (thru apporopriate firewalls and safeguards). Or, you can just have install your own dialups. I still run them here at the University. No one has used them in ages, but we aren't getting rid of them, "just in case"!! > > [As some companies found out during SARS incidents in Toronto. Nothing > like occupants of an entire building being told to stay home for 10 days > to wake folks up on this critical item. Especially when a DC is in that > building and no one can go near it for 10 days. I would think this an > even bigger concern for the defence dept.] There are ways around this that still don't expose your servers admin access to the outside world (and outside here means not just the INTERNET but also company LANS). > >> > >> > So, if there is an IIS or IE hole, then you absolutely do need to >> > consider these a potential server issue - even on your appliance >> boxes >> > out there. >>=20 >> Not if access is restricted to "localhost". Might not be >> convenient for >> the sys admin, but you have to decide between convenience and >> safety. >> In the Army we call that Risk Management and it can be applied to >> just >> about everything. Indentify the Risk. Reduce the Risk. Live with >> what's >> left. If outside access is absolutley, positively necessary, put >> it on >> a lan that is not connected to anything but the sys admin's >> computers. >> Additional NIC;'s are cheap and VLAN's can do wonders for >> issolating >> traffic. Or, if the risk is considered great enough a second >> totally >> disconected network but thats probably overkill. >>=20 > > Bill - we are talking about DC's with hundreds and in some cases > thousands of Wintel servers across the company. We are not talking about > a few servers in the local server room. > > VLANS have some benefits, but they also raise the requirement for all > servers to add NIC's, switch port counts need to be increased, and the > complexity of TCPIP mgmt increases significantly as well. Its all about risks. You have to decide how much of a risk it is and take appropriate action. Cost is often a balancing figure in risk assessment. But saying it can't be done is just ridiculous. What you are now trying to say is not, "It can't be done." but rather "It is too expensive." How much is risk mitigation worth? > >> > >> > You asked how a server can get exposed to a virus .. >> > >> > Laptops, PDA's, memory sticks, cell phones etc are constantly >> traversing >> > from external networks (airports, hotels, home) to internal >> networks >> > bypassing the firewalls. >>=20 >> Don't allow them on your network. Period. I have a personal >> laptop. >> I can take it to my office at DISA. I can not connect it to the >> network. > > I was talking about business laptops that are locked down. Of course, > personal laptops should not enter company property. > > The ones that company Sales, Marketing and Exec's all use today. I use a > company provided laptop with a personal firewall product + latest in AV > software which runs every night (I am paranoid about sending a Cust a > doc with some buggie loaded). I run AdAware all the time. All it ever finds are data mining cookies. I could fix that by turning of cookies, but then there are sites I could not use. I could fix it by not visiting these sites. :-) There are lots of ways to eliminate this threat too. But I have decided that the risk is low and having AdAware throw them all away every day is acceptable mitigation. I travel with my personal laptop all the time. I have never had a virus, trojan or any other kind of malware hit it. This is done by a combination of things, all of which are part of good admin. The machine is somewhat locked down (I do have the admin password, most normal users would not.) I run an anti-virus and FireWall package I trust. And I am very careful about what sites I visit. (When someone sends me an email saying something like, "Wow, check out this cool website." even if it is from someone I know or even a relative, I usually just delte it. I never visit the site. (There are no "cool" sites on the web!!) I have decided this is acceptable risk mitigation. Of course I always have the option to just never connect to the INTERNET. :-) > > This business laptop of mine gets used remotely (airports, hotels, > conferences, home) and in the local office. This is exactly the model > that likely 75% of most companies follow today. > > If I run AD-Aware or Spybot, I know it will almost always find "buggie" > stuff that the FW and AV package missed or did not clean-out. While I am > assuming these are just marketing buggies, I really have no idea if that > is the case or not. So, you are obviously not that experienced or you would know what all of this is. That's part of the job. I am the guy others come to when they have a problem. "I don't have a clue." is not an acceptable answer. > > The point is that laptops today are extremely hard to totally lock down > without disabling the power on button. Sorry, I don't agree and I have seen enough examples both inside and outside of .mil to support my opinion. You are free to spend your life beleiving otherwise. Until we have VMS laptops what we have today is the facts of life. > >> Memory sticks? When I worked on the network in Germany they were >> locked >> out at the top of the forest. You could stick it in the USB port >> but it >> wouldn't do anything. Same thing for all those other devices. If >> you >> consider them a threat you don't allow them to connect tou your >> network. >> My rbother works for an insurance company. He ahs a company laptop. >> He >> does not have any admin rights. He can't install anything, >> deliberately >> or by accident. It is locked down pretty much as tight as the DA >> systems >> I work with (much to their credit!!) Having them locked down this >> tight >> does not perevent him from using it to do his job. Of course, all >> access >> tot he network is via VPN thru the company. No random network >> access, no >> untrusted access, no hacking. He has never had an incident >> involving >> this system. It can be done. >>=20 >>=20 >> > The trojans, worms, viruses etc these >> personal >> > devices might pick up on external networks are typically designed >> to >> > propagate themselves and /or look for servers with known holes >> and >> > exploit them. >>=20 >> Not if you don't allow them to connect in the first place. One has >> to >> understand the difference between business and personal. "And >> never >> the twain shall meet!!" > > See above note about locking down business laptops. To do this properly, > most Sales and Exec types would object to a central group disabling the > power on button as it might tend to limit the laptops use. I never suggesed disabling the power button, that's your idea. But not letting people put un-trusted devices on their computer is no different than not letting thel put un-trusted computers ont he company LAN. It worked fine over in Germany. People bitched, but then they bitched that the coffee wasn't very good either. Strangely, not letting them stuff thumb-drives in everything didn't stop people from getting the job done. They just had to use the network to move things from one laptop to another isntead of modified sneaker-net. This proves much more secure for the data concerned as it prevents "leakage" as well as infection of the computer. In this day and age of lsot hard-drives full of customer data or SSAN's I would think that businesses would be looking at things like "leakage" as much as DOD does. > >>=20 >> > >> > If you were a bad type person, what better approach to get into a >> large >> > corp like a stock exchange than to write a trojan, worm etc that >> gets on >> > an employees personal device (laptop or ? that all have browsers >> and >> > sometimes IIS services running themselves) installed directly on >> the >> > Cust internal network and then looks for known server holes?=3D20 >>=20 >> Read my lips. No personal devices on the company lan. Period. >> And >> that's just physical security, we aren't even talking MS here. You >> don't let strangers wander in and out of your computer room, do >> you? >> So why would you let untrusted "strangers" connect to your LAN? >>=20 >> > >> > Course, you could always take away the employees (traders?) >> Laptops and >> > PDA's ... yeah right. >>=20 >> Not take them away. If they need one fro business you provide it >> and >> you see to it that it is suitably locked down. And you don't allow >> personal PDA's and laptops on your LAN. Period. >>=20 > > See above. > > Try telling Sales and Exec's that they can not use their company > provided PDA's at work. That will surely bring a round of laughter. I said personal. If they have a company PDA it should be locked down just as tight as their PC. And, being as with the impending demise of Windows CE :-) I don't think there are many PDA's still running much Windows. Mine doesn't. The last one I had that did was my Compaq Aero. > > Ever wonder why the nick name for blackberry is "crackberry"? Risks!! If it can't be trusted, don't allow its use. If you must allow its usei knowing that you can't trust it, don't argue that you can't secure your network. And don't blame the device. You chose to use it. > >> > >> > Now see above notes about whether a server platform that has 5-20 >> new >> > security patches released *each and every month* seems like such >> a good >> > future platform strategy for important applications. >>=20 >> Works for me. The only "virus" on our network during my trip to >> germany >> was on paper only and required us to go through all the procedures >> we >> would have done in the event of a real virus. This was to test our >> knowledge of and ability to perform all the necessary technical and >> paperwork requirements in the event of a real one. A real one >> never >> happened. Probably because even though all of these machines >> coming >> from all over the world were known to come from other secure >> networks >> theya ll had to go through a "decontamination station" prior to >> going >> on our network. >>=20 >> It takes a good and well defined strategy involving physical >> security, >> administrative control and technical competence but any system can >> be >> secured. The biggest problem is walking that fine line between >> security >> and convenience to the user. But it definitely can be done. I >> know, >> because I have to do it. >>=20 >> bill >>=20 > > If you have company provided laptops that get used on external networks, > then I can almost guarantee that these laptops have "buggies". And I can assure you mine doesn't. Kind of shoots down your theory. Like I said, the worst thing found is "tracking cookies" and I can stop even that if I really want to and am willing to accept that there are sites I will not be able to visit. But they are not a threat so I accept them. I imagine a number of them are from .mil sites anyway as many of them require that cookies be turned on. > > I am not saying the steps you are promoting should not be done, but > rather that doing these alone in the hope that you will not have to > apply all these known monthly server security patches is not a sound > strategy. OK, believe what you will. I have worked in many environments and seen lots of secure Windows systems, both servers and desktops. It can be done. It takes a lot to do it. Starting with physical security, mandatory personnel use procedures and very serious sys admining. But it can be done. Many here will never accept that and they are free to loose sleep every night thinking the world is hacking into their PC's. I sleep well at night. Especially since applying much of what I have learned maintaining .mil PC's on my University stuff. And I am not done yet. I will be making some major changes to everything here from the network on up. We will be even tighter when the students get back this fall. And in all liklihood, they will not even notice it at the user level, except for the fact that they never sit down to an infected workstation!! > > The sophistication of the bag guys and their "buggies" today + the > volume of monthly security patches for Windows/Linux is just way to much > of a risk to depend on. You keep harping on this one item even when it is shown that there are ways around it. Nothing is going to convince oyu otherwise. Too bad, really. Risk is a bad thing. It leads to all kinds of stress. But it can be effectively mitigated. But first, you have to admit it's possible. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:44:37 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184013877.978170.213810@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 2:51 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "Main, Kerry" writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: b...@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:b...@cs.uofs.edu] > >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > >> Sent: July 9, 2007 11:31 AM > >> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > >>=20 > > > [snip..] > > >>> You also need IE, Firefox or some other browser > >> on the > >> > server to use these admin packages locally. The same is true for > >> other > >> > platforms as well. > >>=20 > >> Same rules. Just because you have IE doesn't mean you should be > >> surfing > >> the web from the server. if you don't connect to untrusted > >> machines you > >> don't have to worry about infection. They're servers for god's > >> sake. if > >> you want to google soemthing go back to your desk. > >>=20 > > > Point is that just by the fact that these services are on the server and > > being used means that all IE and IIS related security patches need to be > > applied. (and these 2 puppies are likely the most hacked and patched > > programs on the planet). > > No, they don't. I fthey never have access to or from untrusted networks > they do not. I suggested using only localhost or a private network but, > as usual, you just changed the rules and said they can't do that. It's > all about risk and its mitigation. If you insist that you must runin an > unsecure environment then no OS is going to be safe. Well, some could be safer than others, no? Are you going to tell a cop he can't wear a bulletproof vest for this reason? Are you going to recommend not using seat belts because if a truck rolls over you you'll die anyway? A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. AEF [...] > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:46:32 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 9, 2007 2:52 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 Bill, You missed my point and snipped it out - Here is what I stated in the previous thread: "I am not saying the steps you are promoting should not be done, but rather that doing these alone in the hope that you will not have to apply all these known monthly server security patches is not a sound strategy." You seem to think that if you apply the right lock down and sound admin processes that you do not need to worry about the 5-20+ monthly platform security patches. You also keep emphasizing PC's so I suspect that is where your experience is - not in managing large numbers (200+) Windows Servers which is a different ball game. Summary - I do not care what server platform you have, lockdown and sound admin processes is not enough. When security issues are identified on servers, they need to be resolved asap.=20 Period. Full stop. If a major breach server issue is identified with something like IIS, you can not ignore it because you "think" no background process running on a laptop or PDA will be able to access it over the internal network. And while the military might be able to tell its Generals that they can not use their company provided crackberries or laptops, I can assure you that is not the case in the real world. I can also assure you that if you think all that is running on your laptop is tracking cookies, and you are not applying the monthly server security patches, then you are headed for trouble. [btw, I did not think it was necessary, but I guess I should have added a smiley when I mentioned disabling the laptop power on button] Anyway, you are not going to change your view, so lets agree to disagree. Regards, Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:09:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: [snip] > > A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my > VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said > go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen tricks up his sleeve. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:30:28 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4692A8F4.2010903@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > [snip] > >> >> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. > > > If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into VMS > systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen tricks up > his sleeve. > ca. 1987, a bunch of graduate students in the Aerospace and Mechanical Sciences Department at Princeton University were reduced the the expedient of hanging a TV camera under the eaves outside my office window and focused on my keyboard! I happened to glance out the window and noticed it. I called the director of the lab. He was a man who really knew how to kick butt! :-) I never had a problem again! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:53:08 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 16:30, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >> [snip] >> >>> >>> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >>> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >>> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >> >> >> If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into >> VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >> tricks up his sleeve. >> > > ca. 1987, a bunch of graduate students in the Aerospace and Mechanical > Sciences Department at Princeton University were reduced the the > expedient of hanging a TV camera under the eaves outside my office > window and focused on my keyboard! I happened to glance out the window > and noticed it. I called the director of the lab. He was a man who > really knew how to kick butt! :-) I never had a problem again! Did they get an E for Effort? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:08:28 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: July 9, 2007 5:10 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > [snip] > > > > A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break > into my > > VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and > said > > go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >=20 > If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking > into > VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen > tricks up his sleeve. >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! Oh no, not the "if only OpenVMS were as popular as Windows then there would be just as many security holes" argument!! Geez.. give us a break, no OS is perfect (including OpenVMS), but that argument went out with the dinosaurs.=20 That is saying that sound OS security Architecture and Engineering from the ground up means nothing. Windows and Linux have a number of good qualities which makes them popular, but security is not one of them.=20 When was the last time you heard anyone say "we are using Windows (Linux) because we need a secure system?" :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:32:28 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184027548.146782.215100@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 5:09 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > [snip] > > A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my > > VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said > > go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. > > If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into > VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen > tricks up his sleeve. Well: No. 1: This was more like circa 2003. OK, maybe not a big difference. No. 2: I've heard this claim a few times before, but I have never seen anything to back it up. So it's really just speculation. AEF > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA [...] ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 2007 00:58:34 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fg3tpF3d7h82U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > [snip] >> >> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. > > If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into > VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen > tricks up his sleeve. Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still an almost totally VMS academic shop with terminal rooms all over the campus. The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. Anyone who logged into a terminal without first forcing a disconnect and reconnect from the DECServer (of course, you had to be a pretty savvy user to even know what that meant) was very likely giving their username and password to some student. It would have been much worse if it weren't for HITMAN which at least limited how long the trojan hung around waiting. Yes, that too was around the late 80's timeframe. If VMS had not become completely irrelevant in the IT world it would now very likely have just as many problems as any other popular OS. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:23:47 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184030627.421742.326360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 8:58 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: > > > On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > > [snip] > > >> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my > >> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said > >> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. > > > If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into > > VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen > > tricks up his sleeve. > > Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. > I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus > or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still *I* didn't make that claim. Fine, so VMS isn't perfect. Nothing is. So why bother putting locks on your doors? You'll get broken into anyway, right? Someone already broke in to such a lock, right? So why bother? Either get the cheapest POS lock you can find or don't get a lock at all. > an almost totally VMS academic shop with terminal rooms all over the > campus. The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. Anyone who > logged into a terminal without first forcing a disconnect and reconnect > from the DECServer (of course, you had to be a pretty savvy user to > even know what that meant) was very likely giving their username and > password to some student. It would have been much worse if it weren't > for HITMAN which at least limited how long the trojan hung around > waiting. Yes, that too was around the late 80's timeframe. If VMS This was addressed. At one lab I visited you had to press the Break key to get a Username prompt. This ensured that you got the real VMS login screen and not a fake one from a password-grabber program. Do other OSes even have such a feature? (Maybe they do -- I'm just asking.) Like you said about Windows, you can lock it down! So if you can't blame Windows for break-ins because it wasn't locked down, you can't blame VMS either, esp. if VMS had that feature when these password-grabber programs were causing all this trouble! > had not become completely irrelevant in the IT world it would now very > likely have just as many problems as any other popular OS. This is just speculation. I suppose if VMS were as popular as Windows it would blue-screen just as often, too, eh? Yep, all OSes are created equal .... NOT! > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves [...] AEF Vee ja dey: The feeling that this has never, ever happened to you before. --George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:05:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5QBki.2131$LE1.1463@newsfe13.lga> On 07/09/07 19:32, AEF wrote: > On Jul 9, 5:09 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >> [snip] >>> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >>> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >>> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >> If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into >> VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >> tricks up his sleeve. > > Well: > > No. 1: This was more like circa 2003. OK, maybe not a big difference. > > No. 2: I've heard this claim a few times before, but I have never seen > anything to back it up. So it's really just speculation. Which claim? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:45:14 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 9, 2007 8:59 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: > > On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > > [snip] > >> > >> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break > into my > >> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and > said > >> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. > > > > If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking > into > > VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a > dozen > > tricks up his sleeve. >=20 > Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is > time. > I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus > or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were > still > an almost totally VMS academic shop with terminal rooms all over > the > campus. The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. Anyone who > logged into a terminal without first forcing a disconnect and > reconnect > from the DECServer (of course, you had to be a pretty savvy user to > even know what that meant) was very likely giving their username > and > password to some student. It would have been much worse if it > weren't > for HITMAN which at least limited how long the trojan hung around > waiting. Yes, that too was around the late 80's timeframe. If VMS > had not become completely irrelevant in the IT world it would now > very > likely have just as many problems as any other popular OS. >=20 > bill >=20 Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge compliment to OpenVMS !!=20 [even if your example was more user capture password processes than a security issue with OpenVMS i.e. leaving your account open running a pwd capture program] Geez .. no one is saying OpenVMS is perfect because bottom line, no platform is perfect. There has been some security issues with OpenVMS and they were fixed. Will there be more in the future? Who knows? Probably. Again, no platform is perfect. However, as has been pointed out numerous times in the past on this conference, security was engineered from the beginning to be part of the overall OpenVMS architecture. Sure, they have been patching patches on top of patches since then, but can you honestly state that back in NT3.51 days, security was a critical design factor? The difference is in the *number of issues found and reported*. The difference between OpenVMS and Windows/Linux is several orders of magnitude. Rather than getting emotional and using OS religion to say "it is not!, it is not!" or bringing up 20+ year old war stories, why not take the time and explain to the rest of the group where the security flaws are with the OpenVMS architecture? And remember that OpenVMS is used in mission critical environments by the biggest banks, chip manufacturers, govt, health, insurance companies, telecommunication companies, stock and other exchanges, retail, lotteries, gaming environments. I know of one OpenVMS environment whereby literally trillions of $'s / day pass through its circuits. So, with all of this sensitive data just waiting to be attacked, why are there not more OpenVMS security issues reported in the press? Or perhaps you do not think these are juicy enough targets for hackers? Perhaps its because hackers, worm and virus writers prefer easy targets? Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:54:28 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: P. Sture wrote: > Try it at the DCL prompt :-) > > $ exit(2928) Unfortunatly, there is no mapping of the equivalent message code in HELP/MESSAGE to get more information on this error. Perhaps everyone in the VMS community should send an email to openvmsdoc@hp.com (is that the one) mentioning the lack of an entry in he HELP/MESSAGE database for the error code decimal 2928. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:03:46 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 19:08, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: July 9, 2007 5:10 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> >> On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >> [snip] >>> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break >> into my >>> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and >> said >>> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >> If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking >> into >> VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >> tricks up his sleeve. >> >> -- >> Ron Johnson, Jr. >> Jefferson LA USA >> >> Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >> Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! > > Oh no, not the "if only OpenVMS were as popular as Windows then there > would be just as many security holes" argument!! > > Geez.. give us a break, no OS is perfect (including OpenVMS), but that > argument went out with the dinosaurs. > > That is saying that sound OS security Architecture and Engineering from > the ground up means nothing. Windows and Linux have a number of good > qualities which makes them popular, but security is not one of them. Sound security Architecture and Engineering is all well and good, but it does no good if the sys admin doesn't make a continual effort to ensure that things are "up to snuff". Or is burdened by too many other duties. Often it's just easier (in *effort* and fighting with developers and users) to just grant extra privs. > When was the last time you heard anyone say "we are using Windows > (Linux) because we need a secure system?" -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:26:06 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Bill Todd writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> In article <468dca0b$0$25492$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, >>> Wilm Boerhout writes: >>>> on 5-7-2007 20:19 Bill Gunshannon wrote... >>>> >>>>> Personally, I have changed my opinion. I, too, think we should bring >>>>> all our troops home. Not just from Iraq and Afghanistan but from Korea, >>>>> Germany, England and everywhere else outside the US. And we should place >>>>> them along the north and south borders and keep all foreigners out of >>>>> the country. Including all those snowbirds with the Quebec license plates >>>>> who live down here 6 months of the year without paying a penny in taxes >>>>> and drive on our highways totally ignoring laws like speed limits!! >>>> Welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave. So free and >>>> so brave that you, Bill, like to build fence all around it. >>> Gee, I thought the rest of the world wanted us to stay out of their >>> affairs. And here I am suggesting just that. And keeping them out >>> of ours. >> There's a significant difference between being a good, non-interfering >> neighbor and being a reclusive xenophobe, Bill. > > "phobe" = "fear". I don't fear foreigners. I am just beginning to > not like them. I have a reasonable acquaintance with Greek roots, Bill, even though I struggle a bit with their alphabet (since I only learned it for math and physics). But, once again, the dictionary is your friend: we're talking (American) English here, and the first dictionary I picked up defines 'xenophobia' as 'fear *or hatred* of strangers or foreigners'. And I certainly see no reason why we should take in > all the worlds freeloaders. > >> It's one thing to "keep >> out of each other's affairs", and quite another to fence everyone else >> out, period. > > I think the US should have a couple of designated "ports of entry". > Anyone having a legitimate reason to come here can use them. But > having wide open borders doesn't provide any advantage to us at all. If you believe that there was no advantage to building America, I guess (since relatively open borders and resulting immigration were, beyond question, how our country was built and prospered - at least after the earlier waves stole it from the native population). And current immigrants provide a great deal of what continuing dynamism we still have, given how fat, lazy, and self-centered such a large portion of our longer-term ethnicities have become. Hell, you work in a college - you can see one significant aspect of it first-hand. ... >> The disturbing part is that China already *has* so much of our money >> (both physically, and in IOUs - and one major U.S. default on >> international debt is all it would take to plunge the dollar into the >> toilet for real). > > Or start tariffing Chinese garbage like other countries do our stuff. Which would primarily hurt the low-wage American consumer: is that really the solution you think is appropriate? ... >> We are either >>> imperialists or provincials. >> No: we're both. > > Bill, I don't understand why you haven't moved to Canada. You don't understand a great deal, but that doesn't stop you from pontificating incompetently about it. You have > hated everything about this country since you were a child. Wrong again (but assuming that you have any idea how I felt over time is yet another indication of your over-reaching arrogance): I grew up loving and honoring this country for what I was taught it stood for, and even managed to believe that Vietnam and Watergate were aberrations (when in fact it later turned out to be the reactions to them that were aberrations). I can't > imagine why you stay. Because I still consider it my country and my responsibility, and I'm damn well not going to leave it to the ministrations of the likes of you. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:29:29 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: MX Mail relay Message-ID: Have a POP3 user accesses via Comcast cable, able to receive, but can’t send mail using Outlook Have following SMTP server settings: Allow VRFY commands: disabled Act as SMTP relay for any host: disabled [SHOW LOCAL_DOMAINS lists hosts] Validate sender's domain name: enabled Allow percent-hacked addresses: disabled CRAM-MD5 SMTP authentication: disabled PLAIN SMTP authentication: enabled Realtime Blackhole List check: enabled RBL domains to check: The user has a VMS account and the Outlook settings are correct for both incoming and outgoing servers, with user name and password. Running MX5.4 under loadbroker on 7.3-1 thru 8.3 tried turning on debugging to see why the server was not accepting the outgoing message %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node FREJA "MX_SMTP_DEBUG" = "TRUE" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node NORNS "MX_SMTP_DEBUG" = "TRUE" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HAFNER "MX_SMTP_DEBUG" = "TRUE" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node ODIN to look at the log files after attempting to send a message, but I didn't find any new log files. Any Ideas? I suspect the relay settings aren't right, I think it needs to be enabled and rely on authenication. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:23:23 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: In article <5feuhrF3cmmpkU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: > > > > PS. I've just converted 6 AIFF files to MP3 on both platforms. The Alpha > > took 8 minutes using ~98% of the CPU; the iBook 34 minutes, using 23% > > of the CPU. Not much in it regarding raw CPU from that measurement, but > > the elapsed times tell a different story. > > > > Another aspect is that I can throw a CPU intensive job at VMS without > > noticing any significant performance degradation when doing such tasks > > as editing, but on the Mac I _do_ notice. > > > > IOW, it's worth running stuff on the Alpha for both the decrease in > > elapsed times and maintaining good response times on the Mac. > > I would attribute that to the OS rather than the hardware. My guess > would be major differences in scheduling and priority schemes. > Indeed, they do seem to be very different animals. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:17:16 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On 07/09/07 10:45, AEF wrote: > On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: >> [snip] >> >> >> >>> The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and >>> VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you >>> delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. >>> Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a >>> command and edit it with vi commands. >> In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command >> line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous >> word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. > > What is "normal PC editing control"? Having the grey , , & keys act like, well, act like they've acted on PC operating systems since the AT-keyboard was introduced. That may seem a flippant answer, but it's all I can think to say. > ^W -- cool! And ^U deletes to BOL. And did you know that at the *console*, Shift-PgUp and Shift-PgDn give you history just like a GUI scroll bar? Only 4 screen, though. > How do you do vi-editing in a bash command? $ set -o vi -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:48:26 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <1184006906.349274.107870@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 2:17 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 10:45, AEF wrote: > > > On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: > >> [snip] > > >>> The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and > >>> VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you > >>> delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. > >>> Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a > >>> command and edit it with vi commands. > >> In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command > >> line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous > >> word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. > > > What is "normal PC editing control"? > > Having the grey , , & keys act like, > well, act like they've acted on PC operating systems since the > AT-keyboard was introduced. Doesn't work on mine (SunOS 5.8). When I press any of those keys I get a ~. > That may seem a flippant answer, but it's all I can think to say. > > > ^W -- cool! > > And ^U deletes to BOL. Yes, I knew that. And ^E goes to end of line. Both just like VMS!!! > And did you know that at the *console*, Shift-PgUp and Shift-PgDn > give you history just like a GUI scroll bar? Only 4 screen, though. No, I did not know this. Thanks. > > > How do you do vi-editing in a bash command? > > $ set -o vi Oh, I see it's not the default like it is with Korn. ... OK. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA [...] AEF "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:21:16 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <5ffg5dF3d3cduU1@mid.individual.net> P. Sture wrote: > In article <5fd16lF3cclb5U1@mid.individual.net>, > Ken Fairfield wrote: > >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >>> In article , "P. >>> Sture" writes: >>> >>>> We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for >>>> us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set >>>> (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both >>>> shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching >>>> for 90+ GB of backup tapes. >>> So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. >>> >>> What about striping shadow sets? >>> >>> Instead of >>> >>> |1| |1| >>> |2| |2| >>> |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| >>> |4| |4| >>> |5| |5| >>> >>> use >>> >>> |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| >>> |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| >>> |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| >>> |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| >>> |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| >>> >>> ? >>> >>> In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second >>> case, it affects 2. >> Indeed, that (striping shadow sets) is what VMS Host-based RAID does. >> It was in very *extensive* use at my last employer. As to another >> poster's remark, I had stripe sets of 6x142GB shadowsets (12 spindles >> in all). >> > > and from your other post: > >> It's not >> as surprising that Host-based striping (RAID-0) is a layered product. >> It depends upon the shadowing software already being present and just >> adds one more layer on top of that. > > Thanks. I see how that works now. Is there any appreciable overhead with > this setup? Plenty of overhead to configure them... ;-{ Although, once you've done it one time, the next time is pretty much cookie-cutter the same. (I'm being somewhat facetious in this because I've had way too much experience writing command files to do the various required steps for about 25 RAID sets with varying parameters...got tired of it...) The biggest overhead I saw was that mounts can take some time. But on a running system, there's no appreciable overhead, and you make big gains by having more spindles involved in high I/O situations. There is a RAID$SERVER process running on each node in a cluster. My recollection is that this process rarely shows up in performance plots. There are essentially two reasons to use RAID-0. First, because you need a really, really big volume, say for database backups or whatever. The second reason is to improve I/O throughput. We had problem disks (single spindles) where the I/O queue average would be over 3.0 (I think it was pushing 4.0 before we fixed it.). By putting that volume on a 3-member stripe set, the average I/O queue was reduced to below 1.0. (You tend to do better than the simple arithmetic would indicate since you avoid the really pathological excursions that skew the average.) Regards, Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:14:16 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On 07/09/07 14:21, Ken Fairfield wrote: [snip] > > The second reason is to improve I/O throughput. We had problem > disks (single spindles) where the I/O queue average would be > over 3.0 (I think it was pushing 4.0 before we fixed it.). By > putting that volume on a 3-member stripe set, the average I/O queue > was reduced to below 1.0. (You tend to do better than the simple > arithmetic would indicate since you avoid the really pathological > excursions that skew the average.) And when one of those stripeset members turns turtle, you've lost all your data. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:23:07 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <%Gxki.5561$Sb4.4788@newsfe21.lga> On 07/09/07 13:48, AEF wrote: > On Jul 9, 2:17 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 10:45, AEF wrote: >> >>> On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>>> The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and >>>>> VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you >>>>> delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. >>>>> Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a >>>>> command and edit it with vi commands. >>>> In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command >>>> line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous >>>> word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. >>> What is "normal PC editing control"? >> Having the grey , , & keys act like, >> well, act like they've acted on PC operating systems since the >> AT-keyboard was introduced. > > Doesn't work on mine (SunOS 5.8). When I press any of those keys I get > a ~. Solaris 8 on x86 or SPARC? >> That may seem a flippant answer, but it's all I can think to say. >> >>> ^W -- cool! >> And ^U deletes to BOL. > > Yes, I knew that. And ^E goes to end of line. Both just like VMS!!! Not in Linux+bash. >> And did you know that at the *console*, Shift-PgUp and Shift-PgDn >> give you history just like a GUI scroll bar? Only 4 screen, though. > > No, I did not know this. Thanks. > >>> How do you do vi-editing in a bash command? >> $ set -o vi > > Oh, I see it's not the default like it is with Korn. ... OK. > > > AEF > > "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up!" :) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:04:51 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <008e01c7c28e$5229bc80$f67d3580$@com> LOL! Thanks for the note. I was not only full of good information, but amusing as well. ;) As John mentioned, that is the *norm* on 3270 and 5250 terminals; also as you pointed out under DOS and VOS (Varian? Not sure what that is...) It is also the norm under most Unix variants, BTOS/CTOS, Mapper, A-Series and ClearPath, Macs, Windows, and a few other, far more rare OS's, like Wang-VS and so on. It is decidedly different not to have it automatically there and mapped to the key with the DELETE legend on it. Backspace of course, is more problematic. I type "stty erase " almost automatically, have for a couple decades or so. (That is, hit the backspace key, don't type the literal! :) -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:14 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > On Jul 8, 11:55 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > P.S. - You were kidding about Dec terminals not doing that, weren't > you?? > > . > > -Paul > > You mean not deleting to the right on a command line? No. You can't do > that. > > Sure, in the EDT editor you can delete to the right, but that's the > comma key on the right keypad. You can tell EVE to use the EDT keypad > and then it will work there to. Just define the logical name EVE > $KEYPAD to be EDT or run the SET KEYPAD EDT command while in the EVE > editor. > > > > The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and > VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you > delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. > Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a > command and edit it with vi commands. > > In MS-DOS, you can move by word, but not delete by word. In VMS, you > can't move by word -- you can only move to the begining, end, or one > character at a time. > > > > Enough! > > AEF > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2...@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:57 PM > > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > > > > On Jul 8, 7:01 pm, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure this must be just my less than urbane upbringing showing > > > > through, but doggone it! > > > > I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the > Character > > > > to the RIGHT of the cursor, > > > > and then move the entire remaining line one character LEFT to > close > > > > up the line. > > > > > Since when does a VT terminal or DECterm do this? (I haven't used > > > DECterm or DECwindows since 1991, so maybe it's a new feature I > > > haven't heard of.) > > > > > You're talking about deleting on the command line or in an editor? > > > I'm assuming the command line. > > > > > > For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, > > > > every last thing I have tried save > > > > PCOMM, insists on making the DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I > > > > wanted to CUT a batch of text, I would use the > > > > remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted character right to > the > > > > RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! > > > > > What remove key? If Del is configured to be Remove, then I'd think > > > there is no Del key. Which delete key are you talking about? Is > this a > > > PC? A Mac? > > > > > > DEFINE /KEY REMOVE DELETE just makes the pesky key send out > "DELETE". > > > > > > HOW do I fix this???????????? > > > > > Are you trying to make the delete key on a VT keyboard that > normally > > > deletes to the left delete to the right? I think you'd have to > rewrite > > > the terminal driver. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, and I promise to go pound myself silly if I did not > look > > > > adequately to find the answer. :) > > > > Paul > > > > > > P.S. I made PCOMM work by writing a Macro to move one character > > > > right, then backspace one. Horribly slow. > > > > > Details please. You haven't supplied any relevant details. > > > > > AEF- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:14:16 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <008f01c7c28f$a2f510f0$e8df32d0$@com> With Raid-0 yes, but RAID-5 or above is much better about that sort of thing. :) Hoff has been working on some new articles about the subject, and uncovered some really interesting facts about failure rates though. Gives one to think. On the other hand, I run basically RAID-5 (although it is configured as 5+2+1 (5-data, 2-parity, 1-hot spare). Never lost a byte, and we typically have data spread across 10s, sometimes hundreds of spindles. None of which is under host control of course, so it is a completely different animal that what we are talking about here. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:14 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > On 07/09/07 14:21, Ken Fairfield wrote: > [snip] > > > > The second reason is to improve I/O throughput. We had problem > > disks (single spindles) where the I/O queue average would be > > over 3.0 (I think it was pushing 4.0 before we fixed it.). By > > putting that volume on a 3-member stripe set, the average I/O queue > > was reduced to below 1.0. (You tend to do better than the simple > > arithmetic would indicate since you avoid the really pathological > > excursions that skew the average.) > > And when one of those stripeset members turns turtle, you've lost > all your data. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 13:00:47 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: In article <1183987930.231097.206940@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jul 9, 7:37 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: >> In article <1183931046.527179.250...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: [...] >> > Mathematically, a string can be considered to be an ordered set of >> > characters (with replacement) or a function mapping a set of >> > characters (replaceable) to a set of consecutive integers >> > (usually .GE. 1 or with an "offset of zero", depending on the >> > context). >> >> > A STRING >> > 12345678 >> >> > I'm not sure at this point what to make of a zero-length string or >> > zero-length substring. I might have to review my Analysis book which >> > starts with a review of set theory! >> >> I don't recall that my analysis book delved into strings or substrings. >> >> It seems clear to me that: >> >> 1. The null string is string. >> 2. The null string is a substring of every string. >> 3. Except for the null string, no string is a substring of the >> null string. >> >> The truth of these assertions will fall out of the definitions >> of string and substring. >> >> Here's an attempt at a definition suite: >> >> N: The natural numbers. >> >> String: >> >> A "string" S over a character set C is a function from a [finite] >> initial segment of N to C. >> >> Range: >> >> The "range" of a string S is that finite initial segment of N over which >> S is defined. >> >> Null string: >> >> A string S [over C] is said to be the "null string" if its range is the >> empty set. >> >> Substring: >> >> A string s [over C] is a "substring" of a string S [over C] if and only if: >> >> There exists an integer i such that >> for all x in the range of s >> x+i is in the range of S and >> s(x) = S(x+i) >> >> Lemma: >> >> The null string is a substring of every string >> >> Proof: >> >> Trivial. Take i = 123. The "for all" is vacuously satisfied >> since the range of s is the empty set. >> >> Note well that this proof proceeds without incident, even if >> S is the null string. > > > OK, that's pretty good. Now that it's not late at night I can think a > little more clearly! > > Anyway, yes, I think even in regular set theory the emtpy set is a > subset of every set because every element of the empty set is also an > element of any set. OK. Be careful -- you're reasoning about strings with an analogy to sets. But yes, we're in agreement. > > However, consider the set {1, 2, 4}. If you were to search and > highlight the subset {1, 4} within that set, you'd get {*1*, 2, *4*}. Yes. The analogy is working to that extent. > And if you were to highlight the empty set in that set, you'd get {1, > 2, 4}. So why does SEARCH highlight every character? I don't see how > the empty set is hiding as the "offset" of each character. And that stretches the analogy past breaking. Elements in sets have no order and no offsets. But I agree that SEARCH should not highlight every character. That's clearly a bug. It is not plausible that it is correct behavior, intended behavior or desirable behavior. If you search for "1" in "123123" then you get a match at offset 0 with length 1. And a match at offset 3 with length 1. So you should highlight both 1's. If you search for "" in "123123" then you get a match at offset 0 with length 0, a match at offset 1 with length 0, a match at offset 2 with length 0, etc. So you should highlight nothing. > Also, > doesn't this mean that Phillip Helbig has a point? Shouldn't the empty > records also be matched? (Good luck highlighting those!) This is why I > suspect the code ignores empty records and then searches for > substrings. Yes. I agree. Empty records should be matched. > So while it is true that the null string is a subset of the > hightlighted records, the highlighted records are not the null string, > so I think they should not be highlighted and I think empty records > should be matched if you are going to go with this mathematical > analysis. Yes. I agree with this. STR$FIND_FIRST_SUBSTRING agrees as well. It considers that "" matches "" at offset 1 even though "" ends at offset 0. I consider the behavior of STR$FIND_FIRST_SUBSTRING to be correct and the behavior of $ SEARCH to be incorrect. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:05:02 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: > > >Hello, > >is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for OpenVMS? Newsrdr -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:12:08 -0700 From: Fred Bach Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: What ever happened to Joel Snyder's VNEWS? I used to maintain it here. .. fred bach music at triumf dot c a VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: >> >> Hello, >> >> is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for OpenVMS? > > Newsrdr > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:31:44 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: >> >> >>Hello, >> >>is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for OpenVMS? > >Newsrdr This is what I am currently using. But it has some bugs and dates from 1998. Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:32:55 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <46922af9$1@mvb.saic.com> George Cornelius wrote: > In article <468e3091$1@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: >>> Doing a SET FILE CONFIG.TEXT/ATTRIB=(RFM=STMLF,RAT=NONE) not only allows >>> me to edit the config.text on VMS but safely send it back to the switch ! >> >> There are many many reasons why I do not use the TCPIP services product >> for VMS. In your various postings, you have hit on some of them. Since >> you are running a hobbyist system, do yourself a favor and switch to >> Multinet. Literally none of the problems I have seen you post about >> exist in that stack (including this one). > > Actually, Mark, when it comes to ftp transfers UCX has traditionally > done a better job than Multinet at transferring pure binary. I believe > it was in picking up .OBJ files off DECUS tapes at your site that I > most commonly saw the problem: Multinet considered "binary" to mean > that only the _content_ was transferred and no count information - > so the arriving .OBJ had no record information and no means of > reconstructing it. Multinet to Multinet tended to work because > Multinet had its own method of transferring the VMS attribute > information. I could track down the thread here on EISNER in > which I raised the issue and had one of the TGV folks admit it was > a problem for them. > > UCX would serve up the file as pure bytes, and the file received at the > other end only needed to be changed from STREAMLF to VARIABLE to be > completely restored as a usable object file. > > This is one of the rare cases, at least prior to the current TCPIP > Services product, where I have seen clear evidence of UCX being better > at something than Multinet was. Rare indeed. UCX and its descendants have the only FTP client/server that can not maintain VMS file attributes when transferring files between VMS systems (it does, however, have a method of exchanging FDL files to set the attributes once transferred; I think it is called +VMS+). Any other VMS FTP combination that does not involve UCX (TCPIP Services)will always give you a clean VMS to VMS transfer unless you go out of your way to turn it off. In your particular case, had you set the transfer mode to binary, record mode instead of binary, file mode the transfer would have worked (this, of course, assumes that the UCX client allows you to do so). I have been able to successfully to do this using clients that do not understand STRU O VMS but do understand STRU R and I don't have to have a way of determining the original record attributes in order to manually set them after transfer. Now, it would certainly appear that Multinet's inability to transfer the .OBJ file as pure binary is a bug. Has anyone ever reported this and requested a fix? On the other hand, this is an issue that I have never seen in more than 15 years of using FTP between both VMS and non-VMS systems. It seems to only be an issue when UCX is in the mix. I once had to use a system that had TCPIP services installed. After reaching a sufficient level of frustration with that package's FTP client, I simply installed HGFTP and all FTP issues disappeared. I believe that particular package supports both STRU O VMS and +VMS+. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:37:23 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Paul Raulerson wrote: >>> Well, I can understand you are notably annoyed at that, but all >>> countries have the right to defend themselves. In times like these, >>> where there are non-sane people out there trying to kill people over >>> here >> Hmmm - there's a pretty good case to be made that at least a lot of the >> people attempting to wreak havoc here are not only entirely sane but >> largely justified, based on what *we* have been doing to *them* for the >> last few decades. Perhaps as a U.S. resident you're just a tad biased >> in this area - a more objective observer might suggest that, unfortunate >> as this may be, doing 'whatever it takes' to get us to shape up is >> entirely reasonable after so many decades of failure by other means. > > (Donning full armor) > > Perhaps you might like to suggest to the group what the U.S. has done that - to > the "sane" mind - in any way justifies the wanton destruction of the innocent > that has become the norm of terrorism and the goal of the radical > fundamentalists. Please restrict your citations to the U.S.'s actions against > those who are attacking us, and leave out actions taken by the U.S. to > support/protect its political/commercial allies. Now, exactly why in hell do you believe that our active aiding and abetting of atrocities by those we choose to support should be off the table here? If I pay someone to kill your family, or even just finance and otherwise support their behavior without directly mandating it, would you hold me blameless in the matter? Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for something now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that indirect - and in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief that *any and every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our excesses can be justified. As for 'the innocent', no member of a democracy that indulges in such actions can be considered wholly innocent unless they have devoted every fibre of their being to trying to stop them. One moron was naive enough to suggest to me privately that our vigorous trading of dollars for foreign oil in some way made up for - well, apparently just about anything we might choose to do, as if most of those inclined to strike back at us were personally profiting from that exchange rather than often being actively oppressed by it. Just one more indication of how many Americans have neither a clue nor any interest in acquiring one. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:03:16 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <91Aki.12011$Oz7.7099@newsfe19.lga> On 07/09/07 18:37, Bill Todd wrote: [snip] > > Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal > invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for something > now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that indirect - and > in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief that *any and > every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our excesses can be > justified. Vengeance killing (because that's what terror bombings are) never discourages, it only stokes the fire. There's ample evidence from just about everywhere on the globe for that. From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: terrorism n 1: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear [syn: {terrorism}, {act of terrorism}, {terrorist act}] -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:05:06 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay >>> our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host >>> country >> >> That statement is demonstrably incorrect, since I (for one) do not. >> In fact, I consider such acts to be something approaching a public >> service (and thus an arguably appropriate response to our >> 'hospitality', such as it may be): if *we* won't clean up our act, >> I'm at least glad that *someone* is taking steps to do something about >> it. >> > > If you think indiscriminately killing civilians (many of whom may > have agreed with your view on US foreign policy) is an appropriate > act I guess that's your prerogative. There's really no 'guess' about it, Malcolm. I wonder if your opinion would > change if someone close to you was killed by one of these "public > services". No need to wonder: the answer is a flat 'no' (though the need even to ask the question suggests quite a bit about the strength of your own convictions or lack thereof - no wonder you're so quick to dismiss the legitimacy of those with whom you have no real connection). > > May I take it that by the same token you'd support the US (or Canadian) > troops indiscriminately slaughtering a few villages in Afghanistan as a > reprisal for those villagers supporting Al Quaeda? You may not: the strong have the luxury of choice in their actions, while the weak often only have the choice between doing what they can or doing nothing. > > If the people of the middle east want the US out of their affairs > they should follow Iran's example and hold a revolution to throw > out the governments that are friendly with the west. Easy enough for *you* to say, isn't it. Of course, suggesting that doing so in Iran was anything like sufficient to keep 'the US out of their affairs' over the past quarter-century is rather naive, though it did curtail some of the more immediate influences. Leaving aside the fact that any such action would do absolutely nothing to rid them of our vigorous proxy in the region. Why aren't the > terrorists taking action against those governments? They do - perhaps you missed it, since it happened so far away. However, given that our support makes it extremely difficult to topple them, it's also very prudent for them to try to take steps to remove said support. > >>> - it's hard to imagine any act more cowardly. >> >> It seems that you would also benefit from better acquaintance with a >> good dictionary (as would Dubya - perhaps you've been listening to him >> a bit too much, or to his puppet Tony across the pond) > > If you've read any of my earlier postings on the subject you > should know I have absolutely no respect for Dubya. I'm glad you > have term limits and that he will have to be gone as president > in under 1.5 years from now. I only hope you don't repeat the > same mistake by electing a president with similar views (that's > up to you Bill, you can do something about it - I can't ) Since his principal opponent in the last election ran essentially on the platform "I would have done pretty much what he did, but I would have done it better" (at least until the last couple of months when it became increasingly clear that this platform would not result in an election victory), I did what I could to try either to change that opponent's position or, failing that, to divert support to a third candidate. The results, however, suggested that about 99% of the voting public didn't share my views in this matter - so depending upon the U.S. population to take the initiative in changing things significantly any time soon may be unwise (at least for those personally affected by our behavior). > > : committing a >> terrorist act may be many things, but 'cowardly' is generally *not* >> one of them. >> > > Pretending to be someone's friend and then stabbing them in the > back is cowardly in my books. Once again, you would benefit from closer acquaintance with a good dictionary, but since you don't appear able (or inclined) to access one I'll help you out: In the first that comes to hand, 'coward' is defined as a person who lacks courage, esp. one who is shamefully unable to control fear and so shrinks from danger or trouble In case your problem is reading comprehension, I'll point out that a coward is someone who does *not* act when perhaps he *should*, rather than someone who *does* act, and act definitively (though in a manner of which some might disapprove). That fact that the terrorists often > give up their lives in the process is no sign of bravery Ah - so now you're suggesting that you can read their minds: no wonder you feel so competent to judge their actions. - they've > been brainwashed into believing they get an express ticket to > paradise by doing so. There's a rather close connection between such 'brainwashing' and the combat training given to more conventional soldiers: in both cases, the aim is to create a state of mind suitable to the task at hand - and in both cases the recipient often doesn't really believe the twaddle but uses it for self-motivation (because he *does* believe in the cause). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:08:29 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > We will have to disagree here. > > Nothing anyone here has done justifies or in any way excuses the actions of > those people. And if you think "we" have been doing something to them, other > than financing their entrance into the 20th century with oil revenues, you > had best take a closer look at who "we" is. > > One can have sympathy for their plight, but not sympathy for their religion > fueled rampage of hate. That old saw of "to understand all is to forgive > all" is wrong - there are some things that the more you understand what they > really are, the more you realize those things are just wrong and should not > be tolerated. > > And this is really *really* off topic. Let's take any further discussion to > e-mail, okay? Whoops - given your closing sentiment, it didn't even cross my mind that you might have posted this to c.o.v. But I did refer to it above in another response I just made (search for the word 'moron' if you have trouble finding it), so won't do so again here. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:16:44 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <9L6dnfhB_82sTQ_bnZ2dnUVZ_oupnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> Paul Raulerson wrote: > What brand of KoolAid are you drinking? Or are you buying the lies in > the propaganda the real bad guys are putting out? Your mis-reading of Malcolm's post further betrays your own bias, Paul. > > Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in > "indiscriminately killing civilians." > If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. Ah, Vietnam - how quickly some forget. Or perhaps you think that such behavior was eliminated more recently by a wave of some magic wand? Think Abu Ghraib. Think 'rendition'. Think Fallujah. Now, had you stated that no branch of the U.S. military *publicly espouses* (even to its own troops) the indiscriminate killing of civilians (as distinguished from regrettable 'collateral damage' that often should just be accepted rather than letting it get in the way of 'the job'), that would have been more credible. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 19:56:16 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <008601c7c28d$1ef2bbb0$5cd83310$@com> Well, yeah, it is kinda true for anyone Bob. A lot depends upon what price people are willing to pay for what they want. For example, *anyone* can get rich, but do they really want to pay the price? I'm libertarian enough (with a small "l" that is...) to not be overly intimidated by the cost of being free, and living by your own choices. It *is* expensive however. And of course, I do not mean in terms of money. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:05 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: [OT] July the 4th > > In article <000b01c7c16f$dae638c0$90b2aa40$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > > Who boy - it does not matter what Europeans consider about the U.S. > system. > > Any more than it matters what U.S. citizens consider about the > > less-than-sane E.U. It's pretty much a free world, and people can > choose to > > live where they like. > > Oh, that that last sentence were ture for Burma et. al. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:42:25 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 18:37, Bill Todd wrote: > [snip] >> >> Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal >> invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for >> something now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that >> indirect - and in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief >> that *any and every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our >> excesses can be justified. > > Vengeance killing (because that's what terror bombings are) never > discourages, it only stokes the fire. There's ample evidence from just > about everywhere on the globe for that. > > > From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: > > terrorism > n 1: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) > against civilians in order to attain goals that are > political or religious or ideological in nature; this is > done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear > [syn: {terrorism}, {act of terrorism}, {terrorist act}] How amusing: you provide your own personal definition of what 'terror bombings' are, and then provide a more authoritative definition that directly contradicts it. Terrorism is (as many have observed) just resistance by another name: in both cases, the weak do what they can to strike out at those who oppress them (directly or by supporting those who do) and keep hope alive through demonstrated refusal to surrender. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 02:34:17 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote: > Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal > invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for something > now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that indirect - and > in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief that *any and > every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our excesses can be > justified. > By that argument one could say that Dubya is simply taking "any and every action possible" to discourage Al-Quaeda's excesses such as 9/11. I don't accept your "might makes wrong" argument. If a tactic is immoral for the strong it's also immoral for the weak. Why would you believe that a group that came to power using terrorist tactics wouldn't happily continue to use them once they became powerful. I suppose one could argue the US is a perfect example of that - it came into being using terrorist tactics against the British and has been using bully tactics to get its way ever since ;-) Hopefully you haven't missed the irony that it was 9/11 that gave Dubya the excuse he needed to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq. This leads to a couple of possible conclusions: 1.) The terrorists are stupid because their act has increased the level of western meddling in the middle east. OR 2.) The terrorists are very clever because their real objective was to prompt the US to invade Iraq, thus eliminating Saddam's regime and giving the terrorists the opportunity to bring in an Islamic theocracy to fill in the vacuum that is sure to exist when the US finally decides to pull out. If (1) is true then their actions were a counterproductive destruction of human life which actually moved them further from their goals, and so should not be applauded. If (2) is true then Al-Quaeda has to accept a large portion of the blame for the death and destruction in Iraq because they took their actions knowing what the reaction would be. If you disagree with both my hypotheses perhaps you could let us know what you think 9/11 accomplished. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:06:00 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/09/07 20:42, Bill Todd wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 18:37, Bill Todd wrote: >> [snip] >>> >>> Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal >>> invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for >>> something now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that >>> indirect - and in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief >>> that *any and every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our >>> excesses can be justified. >> >> Vengeance killing (because that's what terror bombings are) never >> discourages, it only stokes the fire. There's ample evidence from >> just about everywhere on the globe for that. >> >> >> From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: >> >> terrorism >> n 1: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) >> against civilians in order to attain goals that are >> political or religious or ideological in nature; this is >> done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear >> [syn: {terrorism}, {act of terrorism}, {terrorist act}] > > How amusing: you provide your own personal definition of what 'terror > bombings' are, and then provide a more authoritative definition that > directly contradicts it. > > Terrorism is (as many have observed) just resistance by another name: in > both cases, the weak do what they can to strike out at those who oppress > them (directly or by supporting those who do) and keep hope alive > through demonstrated refusal to surrender. When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" resistance by another name? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:21:21 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/09/07 19:05, Bill Todd wrote: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: [snip] >> >> Pretending to be someone's friend and then stabbing them in the >> back is cowardly in my books. > > Once again, you would benefit from closer acquaintance with a good > dictionary, but since you don't appear able (or inclined) to access one > I'll help you out: > > In the first that comes to hand, 'coward' is defined as > > a person who lacks courage, esp. one who is shamefully unable to control > fear and so shrinks from danger or trouble > > In case your problem is reading comprehension, I'll point out that a > coward is someone who does *not* act when perhaps he *should*, rather > than someone who *does* act, and act definitively (though in a manner of > which some might disapprove). Dastard and poltroon would be better words, even though they are synonyms of "coward". dastard adj 1: despicably cowardly; "the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on...December 7th"- F.D. Roosevelt [syn: {dastard(a)}, {dastardly}] n 1: a despicable coward Poltroon \Pol*troon"\, a. Base; vile; contemptible; cowardly. [1913 Webster] Stabbing someone in the back was, us, and always will be dastardly. Detonating a bomb-vest in a marketplace full of women, children and shopkeepers is poltroonish. Ambushing well-armed and trained soldiers or attacking them with IEDs is *not* cowardly. Why? Soldiers fight back. It disturbs me *deeply* that this has to be explained to an educated adult. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:32:50 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <6SEki.45394$aP2.18406@newsfe16.lga> On 07/09/07 19:16, Bill Todd wrote: > Paul Raulerson wrote: >> What brand of KoolAid are you drinking? Or are you buying the lies in >> the propaganda the real bad guys are putting out? > > Your mis-reading of Malcolm's post further betrays your own bias, Paul. > >> >> Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in >> "indiscriminately killing civilians." >> If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. > > Ah, Vietnam - how quickly some forget. "Engages" (current tense) != "engaged" (past tense). > Or perhaps you think that such behavior was eliminated more recently by > a wave of some magic wand? > > Think Abu Ghraib. Think 'rendition'. Think Fallujah. Maybe I don't know what *indiscriminate* means, but all those examples seem pretty discriminate to me. Now, what the British night bombings of Germany and the US bombings of Japan, *that* was indiscriminately killing civilians. > Now, had you stated that no branch of the U.S. military *publicly > espouses* (even to its own troops) the indiscriminate killing of > civilians (as distinguished from regrettable 'collateral damage' that > often should just be accepted rather than letting it get in the way of > 'the job'), that would have been more credible. I disagree. No *branch* engages in the indiscriminate killing of civilians. Otherwise, most Iraqi cities would be charred bits of glass and there would be *lots* of video of soldiers lining up civilians and mowing them down. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:48:04 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/09/07 21:34, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > >> Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal >> invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for >> something now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that >> indirect - and in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief >> that *any and every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our >> excesses can be justified. >> > > By that argument one could say that Dubya is simply taking "any and > every action possible" to discourage Al-Quaeda's excesses such as 9/11. > > I don't accept your "might makes wrong" argument. If a tactic is > immoral for the strong it's also immoral for the weak. Why would > you believe that a group that came to power using terrorist tactics > wouldn't happily continue to use them once they became powerful. > I suppose one could argue the US is a perfect example of that - it > came into being using terrorist tactics against the British and Honest question: how did we *terrorize* the British? All their civilians were across the pond? > has been using bully tactics to get its way ever since ;-) Why do you put a smiley after a sentence like that?? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.373 ************************