INFO-VAX Wed, 11 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 375 Contents: Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Disaster Proof is on YouTube Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Itanium serial ports Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: MX Mail relay Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: VMS Cluster Questions Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:59:58 -0700 From: Fred Bach Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Ever try to find a missing "ENDIF" in 4000 lines of code? Code that > someone else wrote? I tried but, AFAIK, it's still missing. This was > ca. 1993 and Charlie Hammond's DCL checker was not available. > Yes. 'Beautify' the code yourself. Get rid of all the native indenting, and then create your own indenting. Every IF command increases the indent level by THREE spaces, and every subsequent THEN and ELSE command increments the indent level by a SPACE beyond the level of the previous IF. Each line of text or other commands in that THEN or ELSE section gets indented by one space more than the above THEN or ELSE command. Wherever you hit an "ENDIF", reduce the indent level back to the same as the previous IF command. So each IF and its corresponding ENDIF are indented the same amount. At this point it is fairly easy to put a blank line before each IF and after each ENDIF, and nicely tie-off each IF...ENDIF logical block into blocks of text. Then, provided you have a good general idea of what the code is supposed to be doing, the resulting inverted 'pyramids' of code almost always make the missing ENDIF obvious. And quite often it is a spelling mistake, at least it was for me. My DCL programs are thousands of lines long, and they write their own daughter scripts, sometimes in DCL and sometimes in other scripting languages for the specific in-house utilities called. Sometimes a jump into a loop causes an error message about a missing ENDIF. In DCL it is not legal to jump into a loop or to jump into another spot in an IF/THEN/ELSE/ENDIF block. This means that it is only legal to jump into an IF...ENDIF block before or at the beginning of the IF statement in the OUTER IF...ENDIF block! I have seen programs which jump illegally, and, yes, sometimes they even work more or less correctly. But that doesn't make it VMS-legal. ************ I use DCL simply because it requires no compiling and it is the BEST and EASIEST interface at handling input from the user. The lexical functions are extremely helpful. I'm glad they have been improved and added to over the years. What would be handy is a pseudo lexical where the contents of a file or the output contents of another DCL command are directly insertable into an existing command string, other than by using PIPE, simply by 'calling' the file or command by placing it inside special characters right in the command line. This was commonly done in the Data General AOS and AOS/VS operating systems interface 'language' called 'CLI' by placing the file or command inside [] square brackets. Anybody know how to accomplish the same functionality in DCL? I don't think the '@' symbol quite does the trick. .. fred bach music at triumf dot c a . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:37:43 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <1184107063.250858.229070@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 4:59 pm, Fred Bach wrote: > > What would be handy is a pseudo lexical where the contents of a file or the > output contents of another DCL command are directly insertable into an existing > command string, other than by using PIPE, simply by 'calling' the file or command > by placing it inside special characters right in the command line. This was > commonly done in the Data General AOS and AOS/VS operating systems interface > 'language' called 'CLI' by placing the file or command inside [] square brackets. > Anybody know how to accomplish the same functionality in DCL? I don't think the > '@' symbol quite does the trick. > Wow, how many times have I wished for that!! I suppose there are some "security" reasons against it (but none I can think of that couldn't be overcome), but being able to execute another .com file at the same command level would be great. Two ways I'd like to be able to do this (suggested mechanics not important, only the concept/result): $! Execute FILE.COM at this same command level and $! return to calling routine on EXIT (EXIT status works same as now) $! $ CALL @FILE1.COM $! Leave this command file and chain to FILE.COM, staying at this $! command level (no implicit return to this routine) $! $ EXIT @FILE2.COM It's being able to stay at the same command level that is the real "wish." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:32:37 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: $ create temp.txt sys$login:login.com $ type @temp.txt $! system manager login.com $! $myverify = f$verify(0) $set noverify $termtype = "" $! $! IF F$MODE() .NES. "INTERACTIVE" THEN GOTO ENDINTER $! $termtype = f$trnlnm("TT") - "_" $termtype = f$extract(0,2,termtype) $! etc etc etc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:06:44 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <1184116004.256068.122320@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 7:32 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > $ create temp.txt > sys$login:login.com > > > $ type @temp.txt > $! system manager login.com > $! > $myverify = f$verify(0) > $set noverify > $termtype = "" > $! > $! IF F$MODE() .NES. "INTERACTIVE" THEN GOTO ENDINTER > $! > $termtype = f$trnlnm("TT") - "_" > $termtype = f$extract(0,2,termtype) > $! > etc etc etc Too bad you didn't quote the part you were replying to. I don't see what that has to do with *executing* a .com file as a function (what Fred Bach was saying) or *executing* one without stepping into another command level (like I was wishing for.) I believe we were both thinking in terms of modular programming that could use .com like external subroutines and functions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:54:25 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <1184104465.657284.52390@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> hi, I have a DECnet node which act as a file server. it has some disk. when there is no more room on the actual disks, I add one more. I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but modify/delete existing files, upload new ones on any of the disks) I can not find any idea on how to do that (except writing my own decnet object to mimic FAL server but well...) any idea ? TIA, Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:19:21 -0700 From: Peter Weaver Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <1184105961.940152.103980@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: >... > I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > ... MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:59:17 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <1184108357.074009.181510@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 12:19 am, Peter Weaver wrote: > On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: > > >... > > I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > > always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > > ... > > MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one > large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. > > Peter Weaverwww.weaverconsulting.ca > CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial > Hardware thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ BIND available in 7.2-1 ? TIA, Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:23:56 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <5fiis8F3ctidiU1@mid.individual.net> Pierre wrote: [...] > I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > modify/delete existing files, upload new ones on any of the disks) [...] In a previous life, I had a somewhat similar situation. A bunch of volumes were put into a search-list logical so that a file present on any of them could be accessed through the logical. Also, the owners of those files could edit them transparently. But as you've noticed, new files, and that's what your uploads are if I follow you, always get created on the first member of the list. What we did was to periodically move the least full disk to the head of the search-list. It's pretty unintrusive to modify the logical name "on the fly". We coupled this with occasionally moving a set files or directories from one volume to another in order to consolidate free space on one volume. This is probably the easiest approach unless you have other constraints. -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:45:28 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <1184111128.327595.17380@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 12:59 am, Pierre wrote: > On Jul 11, 12:19 am, Peter Weaver > wrote: > > > On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: > > > >... > > > I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > > > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > > > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > > > always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > > > ... > > > MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one > > large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. > > > Peter Weaverwww.weaverconsulting.ca > > CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial > > Hardware > > thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ > BIND available in 7.2-1 ? oups... ignore this silly question... I should go to sleep (1:40 AM) anyway, I never used volume sets. what happens if one of the disks craches ? do I lost all the data on the whole volume set or only on the faulty disk ? TIA, Pierre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:53:37 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <1184111617.418294.202750@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 1:23 am, Ken Fairfield wrote: > Pierre wrote: > > [...]> I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > > always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > > modify/delete existing files, upload new ones on any of the disks) > > [...] > > In a previous life, I had a somewhat similar situation. A bunch > of volumes were put into a search-list logical so that a file > present on any of them could be accessed through the logical. > Also, the owners of those files could edit them transparently. > > But as you've noticed, new files, and that's what your uploads > are if I follow you, always get created on the first member of > the list. > > What we did was to periodically move the least full disk to the > head of the search-list. It's pretty unintrusive to modify the > logical name "on the fly". We coupled this with occasionally > moving a set files or directories from one volume to another > in order to consolidate free space on one volume. > > This is probably the easiest approach unless you have other > constraints. pleasant idea :) I have to check how I can use it as the files on the disk have a very high turnover: a file is kept for 8 days (longuer if I have plenty of room but this is very rare). I may add a temporary disk if/when I'm very short of room but remove it later. maybe I can use some sort of round robin over multiple disks and use your trick. but as files may be written 24h/day I have to have some sort of recuring batch to check free space and change the search list order id needed... > -Ken > -- > Ken & Ann Fairfield > What: Ken dot And dot Ann > Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:29:27 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <93429$469424a0$cef8887a$12465@TEKSAVVY.COM> Pierre wrote: > I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > always be used 1- Just redefine your logical so that the empty disk location is listed first, and the full disk listed second. For reads, it will still work, for writes, it will go to the empty disk. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:41:58 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: Pierre wrote: > thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ > BIND available in 7.2-1 ? Mount/BIND is a very old feature from the days of small physical disks for people needing logically larger disks for large files. Make sure you read the doc and HELP MOUNT/BIND carefully. The "file id" becomes very important because the first digit points to which physical disk contains that file. When you add a member to a volume set, the added volume should/must be empty (just do a normal INIT to it then use mount/bind to add it to the first volume). You cannot restore backups with BACKUP/IMAGE to a /BIND volume set. (files are redistributed between the disks and thus muct get new file IDs based on which physical disk they are recreated to). DO NOT USE THE LD DRIVER for /BIND volume sets unless you are sure it is a recent version with the fixed logic otherwise you risk losing a lot of files. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:58:34 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <4694394A.7060709@comcast.net> Pierre wrote: > On Jul 11, 12:59 am, Pierre wrote: > >>On Jul 11, 12:19 am, Peter Weaver >>wrote: >> >> >>>On Jul 10, 5:54 pm, Pierre wrote: >> >>>>... >>>>I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ >>>>directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto >>>>it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will >>>>always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but >>>>... >>> >>>MOUNT/BIND should take care of your problem. You will end up with one >>>large logical disk. Type in HELP MOUNT/BIND for more information. >> >>>Peter Weaverwww.weaverconsulting.ca >>>CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial >>>Hardware >> >>thanks. I'm at home right now and can not check the help. is MOUNT/ >>BIND available in 7.2-1 ? > > > oups... ignore this silly question... I should go to sleep (1:40 AM) > > anyway, I never used volume sets. what happens if one of the disks > craches ? do I lost all the data on the whole volume set or only on > the faulty disk ? > > TIA, > Pierre > If a member of a bound volume set crashes, you lose your data. A bound volume set behaves like a single big disk and a file may have pieces on any or all members of the set. In years gone by, you sometimes needed a disk bigger than any physical disk that was available and a bound volume set was how you made one. These days there is seldom reason to create such a thing and there have always been reasons NOT to; said reasons having to do with the effects of losing one member of the set, the difficulty of backup and restore, etc. In twenty odd years of being a system manager I found reason ONCE to create a bound volume set; I needed a bigger disk than I had available to old Oracle redo logs. I bound two disks together to get enough space. You should not create a bound volume set without being aware of the hazards. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:14:34 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <5fib9mF3cg0k3U1@mid.individual.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <009101c7c292$a304e810$e90eb830$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: >> This now begins to make sense. It is complicated a little because I normally >> use a laptop pc, without a separate keypad. >> >> I kept trying to remap that key and it insisted on putting commas in the >> text and not deleting, until I issued a "set keypad edt" command, and voila- >> it started working. Sweet! >> >> Now for another dumb but related question; is there a "rc" like file for the >> editor I can setup so that the editor will automatically issue that command >> every time I start it? > > help edit /tpu /command > > You probably want to define tpu$command. While that is one option, it involves knowing at least a minimal amount of the TPU language (which I know Bob does :-). An initialization file ( /initial= Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <001b01c7c35e$73ca04f0$5b5e0ed0$@com> Ah- I did not know that was what it stood for at all. Interesting. :) Has anyone perhaps adapted it for primay use on a laptop keyboard? -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Fairfield [mailto:Ken@Napili.Fairfield.Home] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 4:15 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Delete Key? > > Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article <009101c7c292$a304e810$e90eb830$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > >> This now begins to make sense. It is complicated a little because I > normally > >> use a laptop pc, without a separate keypad. > >> > >> I kept trying to remap that key and it insisted on putting commas in > the > >> text and not deleting, until I issued a "set keypad edt" command, > and voila- > >> it started working. Sweet! > >> > >> Now for another dumb but related question; is there a "rc" like file > for the > >> editor I can setup so that the editor will automatically issue that > command > >> every time I start it? > > > > help edit /tpu /command > > > > You probably want to define tpu$command. > > While that is one option, it involves knowing at least a minimal > amount of the TPU language (which I know Bob does :-). > > An initialization file ( /initial= for a new user in that EVE command syntax is used. As other pointed > out, an EVE$INIT.EVE file *in the current directory* will be > executed by default *without* /init= on the command line. (I find > that feature annoying, but I guess it's just me...) > > As other have already posted, defining EVE$KEYPAD is probably the > best way (for some value of "best") to handle always starting up > with your preferred key mapping. > > Note to Paul: EVE as shipped with VMS is pretty bare-bones. > There's an awful lot you can do to extend/enhance > EVE, and a bunch of us out here who have done so > over the years. > > Remember, EVE means "Easy/Extensible/Efficient VMS Editor". ;-) > > -Ken > -- > Ken & Ann Fairfield > What: Ken dot And dot Ann > Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 04:34:19 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: >>>Guess I am too used to UNIX, Mainframes, Windows, Macs and such. The >>>BACKSPACE key works fine, but the PC/Mac DELETE key is what I was after. >>>Darn... Thanks for the information. It was both well written and >>>informative. >>>-Paul >> >>Heh, I figured that was your problem. >> >>What editor do you use? > > On a regular basis? vim/vi and variants, THE editor from Mark > Hessling, configued to look a lot like XEdit, real Xedit, ISPF, Wang > Editor, Word, and I'm learning EDIT nee EVE, and a little emacs thrown > in for spice. I occasionally use other editors ranging from CANDE to > some truely wierd stuff... :) You need to learn TECO to complete your editor collection. Apparently there is a C implementation of it that allows it to be built on UNIX/LINUX and Windows. If you can get it to be built and usable on your IBM mainframe, then TECO can probably claim the title of being usable on more platforms than any other editor. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:10:22 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <000101c7c379$c8a03470$59e09d50$@com> I thought TECO was a line oriented editor used for batch processing, like SED? I'll look at it and build it just for fun if I can find it. Probably won't handle 3270 screens, but how about z/Linux running under z/VM? Have to get one of you guys to login and test it out though! :) -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:34 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Delete Key? > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>>Guess I am too used to UNIX, Mainframes, Windows, Macs and such. The > >>>BACKSPACE key works fine, but the PC/Mac DELETE key is what I was > after. > >>>Darn... Thanks for the information. It was both well written and > >>>informative. > >>>-Paul > >> > >>Heh, I figured that was your problem. > >> > >>What editor do you use? > > > > On a regular basis? vim/vi and variants, THE editor from Mark > > Hessling, configued to look a lot like XEdit, real Xedit, ISPF, Wang > > Editor, Word, and I'm learning EDIT nee EVE, and a little emacs > thrown > > in for spice. I occasionally use other editors ranging from CANDE to > > some truely wierd stuff... :) > > You need to learn TECO to complete your editor collection. Apparently > there is a C implementation of it that allows it to be built on > UNIX/LINUX and Windows. > > If you can get it to be built and usable on your IBM mainframe, then > TECO can probably claim the title of being usable on more platforms > than > any other editor. > > -John > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:33:10 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > I thought TECO was a line oriented editor used for batch processing, like > SED? I'll look at it and build it just for fun if I can find it. Probably > won't handle 3270 screens, but how about z/Linux running under z/VM? Have to > get one of you guys to login and test it out though! :) On an ANSI terminal, TECO can be put in a window mode that it will automatically keep up to date. I use it that way with a smaller command window at the bottom where I type in TECO commands. I find that this is much easier to use than VI. Some have written macros to handle the escape sequences from the VT function keys, but that really slowed down editing on the VAX 11/750 that I last tried it on. Teco assumes that it will see every keystroke as it is typed, so implementing it on a block mode terminal might be a challenge, but should not be impossible. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:52:22 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: <1184122342.448486.284370@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, Please feel free to share with anyone and everyone. It would be nice to see the YouTube version get as many hits as the HP ETV copy. http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI There are over 4,600 views, 8 comments and most of them about VMS. Warm Regards, Sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:18:55 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184091535.554932.208470@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. > > >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? > > > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but > they certainly wouldn't have back then. I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log in. That's the solution! Don't just set the Break feature: Tell the users they have to press the Break key. :-) Ya know, most of the time you log in you're not getting the password grabber so unless you have the bad luck to do your first login in a password grabber and not know to press the Break key, you'll be forced to learn to use the Break key in time. Well, like you said about programmers and languages, it's a poor workman who blames his tools. Many users of Windows recently didn't know not to open attachments without being certain it was from a trusted source. And I recall that many didn't know about spoofing and phishing and the like. So how did other OSes handle the password-grabber problem and when? My Break adventures at the remote lab date back to 1987 so the Break feature was certainly available by then. > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 2007 19:00:06 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fi39mF3c83a7U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1184091535.554932.208470@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> > Bob Koehler wrote: >> >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >> >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >> >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >> >> > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >> > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. > > I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log in. So did I. But what about the 4000 computer illiterate students and several hundred computer illiterate faculty? Remember, this is over 10 years ago. The INTERNET, for all intents and purposes, does not even exist yet and most people arriving at college have never had to use a computer before. There are not PC's in every room of the house!! ;-) > > That's the solution! Don't just set the Break feature: Tell the users > they have to press the Break key. Tell them when? When do you think you are going to be given the opportunity to hold a class on computer use for everyone? > :-) Ya know, most of the time you > log in you're not getting the password grabber so unless you have the > bad luck to do your first login in a password grabber and not know to > press the Break key, you'll be forced to learn to use the Break key in > time. > > Well, like you said about programmers and languages, it's a poor > workman who blames his tools. I wasn't blaming the tools. The tools are what made it possible. :-) I was only pointing out the fact that contrary to popular belief VMS can have security problems, too. I have had it pointed out to me that user would notice when he logged in that VMS would not inform him of the failed login so he would then know he had been spoofed. I would hope you can see the problem with this, but in case you can't, how would the computer illiterate even know he was supposed to get the message? And trying to teach/train faculty is even harder and less likely. You can offer the class, but you can't make them attend it. Something about herding cats..... > > Many users of Windows recently didn't know not to open attachments > without being certain it was from a trusted source. And I recall that > many didn't know about spoofing and phishing and the like. And the largest majority still do not. I have people here, CS faculty, who are constantly sending out messages with things like: "visit this funny webpage." I know I just delete them, but how many of the other faculty do you think just blindly go there. And these are supposed to be the ones who know how things like computers and the INTERNET actually work!! > > So how did other OSes handle the password-grabber problem and when? No idea. But I can tell you that I, personally, know how to do the same thing for Unix, Primos and CTS under Exec8. :-) Not that I would ever do something like that, :-) > > My Break adventures at the remote lab date back to 1987 so the Break > feature was certainly available by then. All it required was knowledge. Something the majority of computer user in the late 80's lacked. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:45:48 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4693E1EC.6070603@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>>In article <5fg3tpF3d7h82U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >>>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >>> >>> >>> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >>> >> >>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > > Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but > they certainly wouldn't have back then. > My users knew because I told them! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:59:27 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184097567.341864.124170@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the > > last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge > > compliment to OpenVMS !! > > When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 > system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? > Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:22:58 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184098978.766888.177490@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 3:00 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1184091535.554932.208...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >> > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >> >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > >> >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. > > >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? > > >> > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > >> > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but > >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. > > > I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log in. > > So did I. But what about the 4000 computer illiterate students and > several hundred computer illiterate faculty? Remember, this is over > 10 years ago. The INTERNET, for all intents and purposes, does not > even exist yet and most people arriving at college have never had to > use a computer before. There are not PC's in every room of the house!! ;-) Tell them, too! (See below.) > > > > > That's the solution! Don't just set the Break feature: Tell the users > > they have to press the Break key. > > Tell them when? When do you think you are going to be given the > opportunity to hold a class on computer use for everyone? Include it with the Username / Password instructions. You have to give them a username and password, no? Tell them then. Besides, unless these spoof programs are running continually, most users won't get in at all without learning the Break sequence, so they'll be foreced to learn it then. > > > :-) Ya know, most of the time you > > log in you're not getting the password grabber so unless you have the > > bad luck to do your first login in a password grabber and not know to > > press the Break key, you'll be forced to learn to use the Break key in > > time. > > > Well, like you said about programmers and languages, it's a poor > > workman who blames his tools. > > I wasn't blaming the tools. The tools are what made it possible. :-) > I was only pointing out the fact that contrary to popular belief > VMS can have security problems, too. I have had it pointed out > to me that user would notice when he logged in that VMS would not > inform him of the failed login so he would then know he had been > spoofed. I would hope you can see the problem with this, but in > case you can't, how would the computer illiterate even know he was > supposed to get the message? Yes, there have been security problems with VMS. My impression is that they've been few and far between. The same can't be said for Windows. Include the login-failure point with the Username/password instructions. OK, many won't get that, but most will be forced to learn the Break sequence. Anyway, this is not a problem specific to VMS! > > And trying to teach/train faculty is even harder and less likely. > You can offer the class, but you can't make them attend it. Something > about herding cats..... OK, but again, this is not a VMS-specific problem. > > > > > Many users of Windows recently didn't know not to open attachments > > without being certain it was from a trusted source. And I recall that > > many didn't know about spoofing and phishing and the like. > > And the largest majority still do not. I have people here, CS faculty, > who are constantly sending out messages with things like: "visit this > funny webpage." I know I just delete them, but how many of the other > faculty do you think just blindly go there. And these are supposed to > be the ones who know how things like computers and the INTERNET actually > work!! Not a VMS-specific problem. > > So how did other OSes handle the password-grabber problem and when? > > No idea. But I can tell you that I, personally, know how to do the > same thing for Unix, Primos and CTS under Exec8. :-) Not that I > would ever do something like that, :-) > > > > > My Break adventures at the remote lab date back to 1987 so the Break > > feature was certainly available by then. > > All it required was knowledge. Something the majority of computer > user in the late 80's lacked. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:40:39 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4693EEC7.8020609@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >> last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >> compliment to OpenVMS !! > > > When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 > system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? > Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? How about never? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:51:18 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4693F146.1040306@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >>Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>>Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >>>last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >>>compliment to OpenVMS !! >> >>When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 >>system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? >>Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? > > > You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of > these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) > > AEF > Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only to collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a few people who love them! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:19:55 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <%JSki.71464$tL1.36929@newsfe22.lga> On 07/10/07 15:40, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>> Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >>> last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >>> compliment to OpenVMS !! >> >> >> When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 >> system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? >> Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? > > How about never? Does that mean that the Amiga & Apple II are uber-secure? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:23:58 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <1184030627.421742.326360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > >>On Jul 9, 8:58 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >>>In article , >>> Ron Johnson writes: >>> >>> >>>>On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >>>>[snip] >>> >>>>>A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >>>>>VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >>>>>go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >>> >>>>If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into >>>>VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >>>>tricks up his sleeve. >>> >>>Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. >>>I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus >>>or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still >> >>*I* didn't make that claim. > > > Didn't say you had, I did say I "contantly heard" it. It has been > flatly stated here as fact too many times to even count. > For some values of "constantly", which occasionally equals "never"... I have heard the claim that there have only ever been 2 VMS viruses, both proof of concept (and neither of which would work with current versions of VMS), which were never extant in the wild. I have *never* heard the claim that there has never been a trojan on VMS. In fact, I think the existence of fake loginout trojans was the reason that SET TERMINAL/SECURE_SERVER was invented. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:24:55 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <7c0e8$46942390$cef8887a$12193@TEKSAVVY.COM> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only to > collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a few > people who love them! > I have news for you: VMS is not that far from DG's AOS-VS. Once an OS remains relegated to a shrinking installed base with few new customers, it means that it is generally relegated to legacy applications and thus not vulnerable to current break-in techniques. If NORAD ran on Window servers, it wouldn't need anti-virus software because there would be no way to introduce a virus into the internal network since they wouldn't allow any outside machine inside the mountain. Does ETRADE still exist ? That was perhaps one good example of a VMS based system that was serving (and thus open to) the general public. But when you talk about military systems in highly secure location with very tight procedures to prevent any external data from being introduced without permission, then you cannot really claim that the OS being used is highly secure. It is the installation that is secure. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:42:16 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <46943578.8020109@comcast.net> John Santos wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <1184030627.421742.326360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >>> On Jul 9, 8:58 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>> >>>> In article , >>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >>>>> [snip] >>>> >>>> >>>>>> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break >>>>>> into my >>>>>> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >>>>>> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into >>>>> VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >>>>> tricks up his sleeve. >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. >>>> I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus >>>> or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still >>> >>> >>> *I* didn't make that claim. >> >> >> >> Didn't say you had, I did say I "contantly heard" it. It has been >> flatly stated here as fact too many times to even count. >> > > For some values of "constantly", which occasionally equals "never"... > > I have heard the claim that there have only ever been 2 VMS viruses, > both proof of concept (and neither of which would work with current > versions of VMS), which were never extant in the wild. I have heard of two VMS viri and have seen one of them. Andy Goldstein wrote the one I never saw but heard of. I asked him about it at DECUS many years ago. He said he had written it to demonstrate the features of Secure VMS. That one never left the lab. The other was written by the late Carl J. Lydick a/k/a Speaker to Minerals and posted to Info-VAX/Comp.os.vms in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Carl's virus was written in DCL and would copy itself into any .COM file that it could write to. It didn't do anything else, just propagated itself. Carl wrote that in response to my rash statement that there could not be such a thing. Carl's virus would, AFAIK, have worked in any version of VMS from V3.6 to the latest and greatest! It was, after all, only a piece of DCL which wrote DCL. The only difference from the sort of thing that many of us have written was that Carl's virus modified (infected) an existing command file. It might also have worked in versions prior to V3.6 but, since the earliest VMS version I ran was V3.6 I can't say for sure that earlier versions were vulnerable. While writing this I recalled one more virus-like bit of code. This one was called, I think, TELL.COM and its claim to fame was that it copied itself to other machines over DECnet. Stu Fuller probably still has a copy of that one since the author uploaded it to CompuServe's VAX Forum. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:08:12 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <46943B8C.DF469DCC@spam.comcast.net> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > > John Santos wrote: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > > >> In article <1184030627.421742.326360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > >> AEF writes: > >> > >>> On Jul 9, 8:58 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >>> > >>>> In article , > >>>> Ron Johnson writes: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: > >>>>> [snip] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break > >>>>>> into my > >>>>>> VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said > >>>>>> go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into > >>>>> VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen > >>>>> tricks up his sleeve. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. > >>>> I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus > >>>> or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still > >>> > >>> > >>> *I* didn't make that claim. > >> > >> > >> > >> Didn't say you had, I did say I "contantly heard" it. It has been > >> flatly stated here as fact too many times to even count. > >> > > > > For some values of "constantly", which occasionally equals "never"... > > > > I have heard the claim that there have only ever been 2 VMS viruses, > > both proof of concept (and neither of which would work with current > > versions of VMS), which were never extant in the wild. > > I have heard of two VMS viri and have seen one of them. Andy Goldstein > wrote the one I never saw but heard of. I asked him about it at DECUS > many years ago. He said he had written it to demonstrate the features > of Secure VMS. That one never left the lab. > > The other was written by the late Carl J. Lydick a/k/a Speaker to > Minerals and posted to Info-VAX/Comp.os.vms in the late 1980s or early > 1990s. Carl's virus was written in DCL and would copy itself into any > .COM file that it could write to. It didn't do anything else, just > propagated itself. Carl wrote that in response to my rash statement > that there could not be such a thing. > > Carl's virus would, AFAIK, have worked in any version of VMS from V3.6 > to the latest and greatest! It was, after all, only a piece of DCL > which wrote DCL. The only difference from the sort of thing that many > of us have written was that Carl's virus modified (infected) an existing > command file. It might also have worked in versions prior to V3.6 but, > since the earliest VMS version I ran was V3.6 I can't say for sure that > earlier versions were vulnerable. > > While writing this I recalled one more virus-like bit of code. This one > was called, I think, TELL.COM and its claim to fame was that it copied > itself to other machines over DECnet. Stu Fuller probably still has a > copy of that one since the author uploaded it to CompuServe's VAX Forum. To this day, I still maintain - and advocate - the practice of ensuring that there's an EXIT statement at the end of a DCL procedure: to prevent malicious code from appending potentially harmful statements at what should be and end/exit point. Most of my proc.'s, however, have subroutines at the end and typically end with my subroutine template: $! $: $ RETURN ...so anything appended would be very likely to never execute. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 04:56:28 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: John Santos wrote: > Stephen Hoffman wrote: > >> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: >> >>> I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the >>> serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial >>> console. The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when >>> I plug it in to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is >>> the characters I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the >>> baud rate, bits, parity & stop bits. >>> >>> Any clues? >> >> A short is unlikely; this sounds like something weird with the port. >> >> Have you confirmed TT0: is the port you expect it to be? Have you >> tried connecting into that port using a terminal and terminal >> emulator, and logged in? Half the battle with serial ports on the >> Integrity involved sorting out which one was the console (as it >> varied, based on several factors), and which one wasn't. Once you >> have something connected, you can SET HOST/DTE into the terminal or >> the emulator, and you should see characters arriving in the terminal >> or emulator display window. >> >> The Integrity serial connector I was using with the BD25 port on the >> rx2600 was the H8575-E, and the pinout for most DECconnect adapters is >> available at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/padapters.html >> >> I don't know that the pinout from the MSA1000 is posted anywhere, >> but you can use a multimeter to probe the adapter wiring and figure >> that out. From that and from the DECconnect stuff, you can confirm >> the wiring. (An RJ45 for serial communications? Shudder. Never >> liked to see that approach, no matter who used it.) > > The RJ45 connector is at the MSA1000 end and it isn't actually an RJ45; > IIRC it has 10 pins! The MSA1000 RJ plug also has 2 serial ports on it, one of which is special and you do not want to send any commands to it as it is for factory use only. > I plugged the one that came with my customer's MSA1000 directly into a > serial port on their Alpha ES40, and it worked fine. The HP guys setting > it up also used it to plug into a laptop for configuring, and I think we > had it plugged into a terminal for a while. As I recall, it is 19200 8 bits, no stop, and no handshaking. The DB-9 on the end of the connector is designed to be connected to a DTE device such as the standard serial port on any computer type. I use to keep a loopback plug around that I could plug in a suspect serial port, and then see if it echoed characters back. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:13:51 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184109231.528882.211450@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 3:37 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/10/07 11:26, JF Mezei wrote: > [...] > > > and the quicker they admit > > defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will > > allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. The resistance will allow the Americans to retreat in an orderly fashion? Are you out of your mind? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:51:51 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184115111.488306.300400@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" > >> resistance by another name? > > > Do you have any proof that it is Al Qaeda doing those deeds ? Or just > > beleieving the US military propaganda ? > > > Have you seen any evidence that any bombs actually come from the Iranian > > govermment ? Or just beleive that propaganda from the US military > > showing some picture of *any* bomb and claiming it is evidence it comes > > from Iran without any such markings visible and defiitely no proof that > > it would have come from the Iranian government ? > > > I am very disapointed that americans, who should, by now, realised they > > really got suckered by the lying criminals at the white house into an > > illegal war, continue to beleive the current allegations that are not > > supported by any credible evidence. > > > Fact: Iraq is a country currently occupied and governed by the americans > > who installed a puppet government. It is perfectly natural for the > > locals to wish to destabilise the situation because they will do > > everything to not only kick the americans out, but also force them out > > with their tail between their legs. > > The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group > in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who > have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they > take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need > for Al Qaeda really. Exactly. It's a tribal culture. We were so critical of Saddam Hussein, and I know I'll get blasted for saying this, but I think I can better understand why he was so ruthless with "his people." > Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, > and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to > paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent > bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins > waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she > mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs > actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. > Which makes you wonder what the female suicide bombers expect... never mind. I just thought about it and answered my own question :-\ > There is one small > problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, > and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. You must have heard that through the grapevine;-) > Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art > and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this > once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign > books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the > Arab speaking world. > The cradle of civilization, it was. > And what about the Americans in Iraq? Obviously they went to war without > having a clue what to do when the war was over. They expected the > population to cheer the Americans, to setup their own versions of the > republican and democratic party (well, just a republican party would > have been sufficient), and elect a kind of George W as new president. > And so a new great democracy would have been born !! > "W" watched too many John Wayne & Audie Murphy movies, maybe? > The American soldiers who went there knew they they belonged to the best > army in the world, with the best weapons, and they were sent by the > greatest democracy in the world, led by God's own representative on > earth George W. Bush. They also had the best education in the world, and > so I would not be surprised if many of them weren't even able to point > out Iraq on the map of the world. To their surprise they noticed that > there were no McDonalds, Burger Kings and Wallmarts in Iraq, and > baseball was rather unknown as well. Conclusion: this was a primitive > people, and they had no reservations showing that to the Iraqi people. > For some strange reason the Iraqis did not appreciate this attitude. I'm > sure this whole complex is one of the main reasons why the Americans > have failed bitterly in Iraq. > The US "coalition" made too many mistakes to even mention except to write a book, but the soldiers had no expectations of finding a McD, BK or WM there. I know too many of them, and/or their families, to be able to agree with your conclusion. > > > > There can be no "victory" by the americans, and the quicker they admit > > defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will > > allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. (aka: gradual > > widthdrwawal, not the "all or nothing" debates in the USA). The "victory" was accomplished when Saddam was overthrown. Now, we're suffering because of the stupid decisions made by our "leaders" about what to do about the "victory." The radicals in Iraq are even more ignorant about the US than we are about them. If the idiots would stop killing each other, we'd pull out. If they were "just" killing our soldiers, we'd back off, which we did until they started killing their own civilians and destroying their own infrastructure and even their holy places. When we do pull back for good, we'll maintain whatever small presence as is warranted and requested by the Iraqis --- just as we do in other places in the world. If we're asked to leave, we will --- just as we have in other places. The US doesn't "conquer and occupy" other nations (except, of course, our own) and every nation we've ever hurt in war was rebuilt thanks to our aid. How many other "conquerors" can you say that about? As someone whose name I forget said in a speech, 'The only foreign land the US asks for is enough to bury the soldiers who died fighting for that nation's freedom.' Even our own native Americans (granted they suffered) were not forced to assimilate except if they wanted to. You don't find that too often in the history of conquerors, either. The US has committed wrongs against other people, sure, but what we do it in the world's headlines, and Americans who commit crimes during war are tried and punished for the world to see. The non-western world seems to apply a double standard where the US is concerned. Chopping off soldiers and civilians heads and dragging their bodies through the streets and purposefully killing women and children seems more acceptable than us locking up those same criminals and treating them like the animals they are. Anyway, I for one appreciate Didier's original sentiment so, Didier, thank you from me, at least. Our nation would not exist today had it not been for the support of France. I hope the people of our nations can always be friendly in spite of whatever current bunch of politics wiggles its way to the top . ******************************************************* "These were extraordinary times, peopled by ranting maniacs in love with violence and a violent god, infested with apologists for wickedness, who blamed victims for their suffering and excused murderers in the name of justice." (Dean Koontz, By the Light of the Moon) ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:59:34 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: MX Mail relay Message-ID: VAXman- wrote: (snip) > Why? Because most of the major broadband providers have place a block on > port 25 outbound. Subscribers to these services must use their provider's > SMTP servers if they want email. Not all do. I had a local sendmail on a unix box sending mail out for a while. I then set my firewall block outbound connections from hosts on the internal net, except to the local sendmail server. That worked fine until out local school district blocked incoming port 25 from as many ISPs networks other than the ISP smtp server. Now I have my local smtp server forward to the ISP server. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:57:39 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <_Yqki.23199$Fc.3426@attbi_s21>, "John E. Malmberg" > writes: > > > > I had that happen with a Pontiac Phoenix. Apparently some of the parts > > are different based on the serial number in the VIN and this was not in > > the parts guide. I had a similar problem with a 1970s British car. It turned out that mine was in a run of 6 cars during a change of gearbox from one model to another, which had different oil pipes. It was only because I had worked for a vehicle importer that I knew to prompt the dealer to look the details up on their microfiches. > Having the VIN for certain parts has been around for a long time. > There might be no other way for your parts department to know which > part you need. Prior to the 1980s, when ordering car parts for a British car, you just needed the year of manufacture. For Japanese or European cars, you quickly learned to visit a parts department armed with the engine and chassis number (later know as the VIN). > But you didn't need the part number to buy the whole > car, did you? > > If the OP had a system and needed a serial number dependent part, > that would be different. He's trying to buy the whole VMS. But "the whole of VMS" on what media? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:07:09 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <1184098029.593017.226380@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 5:23 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 13:48, AEF wrote: > > > On Jul 9, 2:17 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/09/07 10:45, AEF wrote: > > >>> On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: > >>>> [snip] > >>>>> The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and > >>>>> VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you > >>>>> delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. > >>>>> Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a > >>>>> command and edit it with vi commands. > >>>> In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command > >>>> line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous > >>>> word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. > >>> What is "normal PC editing control"? > >> Having the grey , , & keys act like, > >> well, act like they've acted on PC operating systems since the > >> AT-keyboard was introduced. > > > Doesn't work on mine (SunOS 5.8). When I press any of those keys I get > > a ~. > > Solaris 8 on x86 or SPARC? SPARC (Sun Ultra Enterprise 4000) I log into this Unix box via SmarTerm telnet. > >> That may seem a flippant answer, but it's all I can think to say. > > >>> ^W -- cool! > >> And ^U deletes to BOL. > > > Yes, I knew that. And ^E goes to end of line. Both just like VMS!!! > > Not in Linux+bash. Why the hell not? [...] > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:13:46 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On 07/10/07 15:07, AEF wrote: > On Jul 9, 5:23 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 13:48, AEF wrote: >> >>> On Jul 9, 2:17 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> On 07/09/07 10:45, AEF wrote: >>>>> On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>> The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and >>>>>>> VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you >>>>>>> delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. >>>>>>> Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a >>>>>>> command and edit it with vi commands. >>>>>> In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command >>>>>> line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous >>>>>> word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. >>>>> What is "normal PC editing control"? >>>> Having the grey , , & keys act like, >>>> well, act like they've acted on PC operating systems since the >>>> AT-keyboard was introduced. >>> Doesn't work on mine (SunOS 5.8). When I press any of those keys I get >>> a ~. >> Solaris 8 on x86 or SPARC? > > SPARC (Sun Ultra Enterprise 4000) > > I log into this Unix box via SmarTerm telnet. Ah. Even though you are telneting in from a PC, that's not a "PC operating system". I wouldn't be surprised, though, that things would act differently if you were running Solaris 11 on an x86-64 box. >>>> That may seem a flippant answer, but it's all I can think to say. >>>>> ^W -- cool! >>>> And ^U deletes to BOL. >>> Yes, I knew that. And ^E goes to end of line. Both just like VMS!!! >> Not in Linux+bash. > > Why the hell not? Oops. In "normal" mode, ^E *does* go to EOL, but not in vi-mode, which is what I was in at the time. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:15:30 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <5fibbdF3cg0k3U2@mid.individual.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 14:21, Ken Fairfield wrote: > [snip] >> >> The second reason is to improve I/O throughput. We had problem >> disks (single spindles) where the I/O queue average would be >> over 3.0 (I think it was pushing 4.0 before we fixed it.). By >> putting that volume on a 3-member stripe set, the average I/O queue >> was reduced to below 1.0. (You tend to do better than the simple >> arithmetic would indicate since you avoid the really pathological >> excursions that skew the average.) > > And when one of those stripeset members turns turtle, you've lost all > your data. Not when you stripe shadow sets. Look up-thread for the reference... -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:16:58 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On 07/10/07 16:15, Ken Fairfield wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/09/07 14:21, Ken Fairfield wrote: >> [snip] >>> >>> The second reason is to improve I/O throughput. We had problem >>> disks (single spindles) where the I/O queue average would be >>> over 3.0 (I think it was pushing 4.0 before we fixed it.). By >>> putting that volume on a 3-member stripe set, the average I/O queue >>> was reduced to below 1.0. (You tend to do better than the simple >>> arithmetic would indicate since you avoid the really pathological >>> excursions that skew the average.) >> >> And when one of those stripeset members turns turtle, you've lost all >> your data. > > Not when you stripe shadow sets. Look up-thread for the reference... I saw that but misunderstood and thought that you(?) had changed subject from "RAID-0 + HBVS" vs. "HBVS + RAID-0" to plain old RAID-0. Sorry for the mixup. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:18:27 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article <5ffg5dF3d3cduU1@mid.individual.net>, Ken Fairfield wrote: > P. Sture wrote: > > In article <5fd16lF3cclb5U1@mid.individual.net>, > > Ken Fairfield wrote: > > > >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > >>> In article , "P. > >>> Sture" writes: > >>> > >>>> We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for > >>>> us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set > >>>> (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both > >>>> shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching > >>>> for 90+ GB of backup tapes. > >>> So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. > >>> > >>> What about striping shadow sets? > >>> > >>> Instead of > >>> > >>> |1| |1| > >>> |2| |2| > >>> |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| > >>> |4| |4| > >>> |5| |5| > >>> > >>> use > >>> > >>> |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| > >>> |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| > >>> |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| > >>> |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| > >>> |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| > >>> > >>> ? > >>> > >>> In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second > >>> case, it affects 2. > >> Indeed, that (striping shadow sets) is what VMS Host-based RAID does. > >> It was in very *extensive* use at my last employer. As to another > >> poster's remark, I had stripe sets of 6x142GB shadowsets (12 spindles > >> in all). > >> > > > > and from your other post: > > > >> It's not > >> as surprising that Host-based striping (RAID-0) is a layered product. > >> It depends upon the shadowing software already being present and just > >> adds one more layer on top of that. > > > > Thanks. I see how that works now. Is there any appreciable overhead with > > this setup? > > Plenty of overhead to configure them... ;-{ Although, once you've > done it one time, the next time is pretty much cookie-cutter the > same. (I'm being somewhat facetious in this because I've had way > too much experience writing command files to do the various required > steps for about 25 RAID sets with varying parameters...got tired of > it...) Ah. I tend to hit DCL every time for such things. It's not just the boredom of repetitive commands, but avoiding typos. > The biggest overhead I saw was that mounts can take some time. But > on a running system, there's no appreciable overhead, and you make > big gains by having more spindles involved in high I/O situations. > There is a RAID$SERVER process running on each node in a cluster. > My recollection is that this process rarely shows up in performance > plots. Yes, spindles can often win, even against "bigger, better, faster" disks. > There are essentially two reasons to use RAID-0. First, because > you need a really, really big volume, say for database backups or > whatever. > > The second reason is to improve I/O throughput. We had problem > disks (single spindles) where the I/O queue average would be > over 3.0 (I think it was pushing 4.0 before we fixed it.). By > putting that volume on a 3-member stripe set, the average I/O queue > was reduced to below 1.0. (You tend to do better than the simple > arithmetic would indicate since you avoid the really pathological > excursions that skew the average.) > Aye, excursions from the norm can easily go exponential. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 2007 17:59:47 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: Christoph Gartmann wrote: > is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for > OpenVMS? I'd like to tack on a question to this. The last time I looked at this question was nearly 10 years ago, and at that point the chief issue I found was that many of the VMS newsreaders seemed unable to gracefully handle news providers with HUGE numbers of groups. Which newsreaders available on OpenVMS can handle this? Zane ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 07 14:28:01 EDT From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: <68sS$kCCasIf@wvnvms> In article , healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > Christoph Gartmann wrote: >> is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for >> OpenVMS? > > I'd like to tack on a question to this. The last time I looked at this > question was nearly 10 years ago, and at that point the chief issue I found > was that many of the VMS newsreaders seemed unable to gracefully handle news > providers with HUGE numbers of groups. Which newsreaders available on > OpenVMS can handle this? The last version of ANUNEWS (6.2) would crash at startup given a large number of groups. I have a simple patch to fix the problem. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:59:03 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Christoph Gartmann wrote: > >>is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for >>OpenVMS? > > > I'd like to tack on a question to this. The last time I looked at this > question was nearly 10 years ago, and at that point the chief issue I found > was that many of the VMS newsreaders seemed unable to gracefully handle news > providers with HUGE numbers of groups. Which newsreaders available on > OpenVMS can handle this? > > Zane Still want non-graphical? I'm typing this on OpenVMS with the newsreader built into Mozilla with over 32K groups on my news server. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 00:58:27 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: John Reagan wrote: > Still want non-graphical? I'm typing this on OpenVMS with the > newsreader built into Mozilla with over 32K groups on my news server. For the last 15+ years I've been getting my USENET fix using 'tin' run on a Unix system. I'm not sure why but I've never found a GUI based newsreader I like as much. I prefer terminal based apps for email and news as they can be accessed from pretty much an computer that can run ssh. I have a VT420 on my XP1000, and I haven't had a Keyboard, Monitor or mouse on my VMS system for about 7 years. It is heavily used, but I normally only use it for either terminal or web based applications, the only normal exception is NEDIT if I need context colouring. BTW, I'd love to hear that someone has a *modern* port of 'tin' to VMS, to the best of my knowledge it has been a long time since it has been built on VMS, and it needs autoconf now. :^( Zane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:32:14 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: GenericSYS wrote: > As to the consultancy > option, it is a posibility at some point. Would it be > best to contact you off your posting email address for > some further information re costs etc.? No no, we all would very much like to know that ! :-) :-) Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:55:06 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: <4693ff01$0$19264$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> GenericSYS wrote: > On Jul 10, 3:02 pm, Stephen Hoffman > wrote: >> GenericSYS wrote: >>> Hi, I was hoping some kind folks could have a look at a problem/ >>> situation for me and suggest a method to implement the requirements. >>> I'll just add that VMS knowledge in our team and knowledge of our >>> environment is limited. Most of this configuration was put in place >>> by people who have left long ago, and we do struggle to fill the gaps >>> in knowledge at times. >> Get some training, then. HoffmanLabs and other various entities offer >> customized training, and documentation for OpenVMS is readily available. >> >>> We have a three-node cluster, two alphas running OpenVMS V6.2-1H3 and >>> a VAX running OpenVMS V6.2. The VAX is only present to provide a >>> quorum vote. Both alphas are connected to their own HSZ40 storage >>> solutions (dual controller), and we also have FDDI as a cluster >>> connection. We also have TCPware, DECnet and LAT protocols in use on >>> our site. >> That's a standard low-end cluster configuration, set up for up-time. >> Probably the most immediate question would be the hardware involved. >> It's probably older given that OpenVMS Alpha release, there may be ways >> to scale into newer hardware at relatively low costs. This hardware >> upgrade can potentially produce savings from the move to newer Alpha >> gear -- sales of new Alpha ended earlier this year, so you're moving to >> New Old Stock or to Used Gear, or to the Integrity platform and to >> OpenVMS I64 -- by reducing the support contract costs. >> >>> I have a requirement to simplify this configuration with minimal >>> cost. The approach I was hoping to use would be remove the VAX from >>> the cluster, bring both systems into one of our server rooms (removing >>> the disaster tolerance but maintaining fault tolerance), utilise only >>> one of the HSZ40's for some variety of shared storage, and most >>> importantly removing the FDDI from the configuration, since knowledge >>> of this component at hardware and software level is non-existent. >> As others have mentioned, that VAX is here for a reason. You can get >> rid of it and move to a quorum disk, but that slows the cluster >> transitions, and you have to run the quorum disk either as an isolated >> disk, or with controller-based RAID. http://64.223.189.234/node/153andhttp://64.223.189.234/node/105have details on quorum and the quorum >> disk, and on basic cluster communcations. >> >> Again, you were left with a pretty good configuration. And one set to >> maintain uptime -- the "quorum VAX" makes for a faster transition, as >> it's an active participant. The quorum disk can serve the same purpose, >> but the hosts must poll it -- which makes for slower transitions. >> >>> Could anyone comment on if this is a possibility or suggest an >>> alterative, and suggest a general method to achieve this? If any more >>> information is required please let me know and I'll try to provide. >> Get some training or read some of the available material, as this will >> help you make informed choices, and provide your boss with a better answer. >> >> This looks to be a pretty solid configuration, and presents a minimal >> configuration for high uptime. This configuration can be reduced, but >> you will loose redundancy. >> >> Here are some related discussions around migration: >> >> http://64.223.189.234/node/62 : what a boss thinks abouthttp://64.223.189.234/node/98 : stay with OpenVMS, or port?http://64.223.189.234/node/225: migration off of OpenVMShttp://64.223.189.234/node/226: migration over to OpenVMS I64 >> >> Depending on what you want to optimize and how much you want to spend to >> get to that end-state -- and make no mistake, saving some money can and >> will cost some money. Options here include leaving it all alone -- far >> and away the cheapest -- to minimal changes to reduce the footprint or >> to up-rate the storage or to move to a quorum disk -- to migrating >> interconnections or such -- and here's where we start to get more >> expensive -- to migrating over to OpenVMS I64 -- to the really expensive >> solution of migrating off of OpenVMS. This in rough order of increasing >> costs. >> >> --www.HoffmanLabs.com >> Services for OpenVMS > > Thanks for the information Stephen, I shall have a look through > everything you have linked. > > The replacement of the hardware is another path we are considering, to > the extent we have already aquired a loan machine (Integrity running > OpenVMS IA64 8.3) and ported most of our applications to it, but we > will need to present a number of options for consideration. > > Training and/or consultants are being considered for the appriopriate > options, but before we even begin to look at costs and availability we > need to get an idea of whats feasible and whats fantasy. > I feel that I also have to raise my voice into the choir. :-) Like others have said, your company won't save much by removing parts from a well functioning cluster. I would even suggest that you leave the FDDI alone, because it was most probably chosen for its performance and reliability in the first place. It performs much better than 100BaseT and redundancy is built-in. I don't understand what would be achieved by removing FDDI from the cluster configuration, as it appears to be the main path for cluster traffic (which serves the volume shadowing also). The only way to remove it without losing performance is bringing in 1000BaseT and that might not even be possible with the Alphas because of their age. I'll bet you haven't had any trouble with the FDDI so why should it be decommissioned. Your best way to save - at least in support costs - is to update your hardware to newer. If you choose another platform (i.e. I64), you also need to replace some other hardware (networking equipment, storage) and you have to consider those costs, too. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:24:36 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS Cluster Questions Message-ID: On 07/10/07 16:55, Uusimäki wrote: [snip] > > I feel that I also have to raise my voice into the choir. :-) > > Like others have said, your company won't save much by removing parts > from a well functioning cluster. I would even suggest that you leave the > FDDI alone, because it was most probably chosen for its performance and > reliability in the first place. It performs much better than 100BaseT > and redundancy is built-in. I don't understand what would be achieved by > removing FDDI from the cluster configuration, as it appears to be the > main path for cluster traffic (which serves the volume shadowing also). > The only way to remove it without losing performance is bringing in > 1000BaseT and that might not even be possible with the Alphas because of > their age. I'll bet you haven't had any trouble with the FDDI so why > should it be decommissioned. > > Your best way to save - at least in support costs - is to update your > hardware to newer. If you choose another platform (i.e. I64), you also > need to replace some other hardware (networking equipment, storage) and > you have to consider those costs, too. What about some newer used Alphas from Islandco? That's if the current cluster even has a maintenance contract. Which I suspect it doesn't. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:37:04 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/10/07 11:26, JF Mezei wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >> resistance by another name? > > Do you have any proof that it is Al Qaeda doing those deeds ? Or just > beleieving the US military propaganda ? Then who's bombing those markets? The US? The Iraqis bombing themselves? That's not a very bright move, *if* the agenda is kicking out the Americans. The VC wasn't that stupid. > Have you seen any evidence that any bombs actually come from the Iranian > govermment ? If they aren't sending aid to their fellow Shia, then they're fools and not particularly bright. > Or just beleive that propaganda from the US military > showing some picture of *any* bomb and claiming it is evidence it comes > from Iran without any such markings visible and defiitely no proof that > it would have come from the Iranian government ? > > I am very disapointed that americans, who should, by now, realised they > really got suckered by the lying criminals at the white house into an > illegal war, continue to beleive the current allegations that are not > supported by any credible evidence. > > Fact: Iraq is a country currently occupied and governed by the americans > who installed a puppet government. It is perfectly natural for the > locals to wish to destabilise the situation because they will do > everything to not only kick the americans out, but also force them out > with their tail between their legs. I agree. > There can be no "victory" by the americans, I agree. > and the quicker they admit > defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will > allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. (aka: gradual > widthdrwawal, not the "all or nothing" debates in the USA). Hah. One word: Lebanon. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:55:32 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >> resistance by another name? > > Do you have any proof that it is Al Qaeda doing those deeds ? Or just > beleieving the US military propaganda ? > > Have you seen any evidence that any bombs actually come from the Iranian > govermment ? Or just beleive that propaganda from the US military > showing some picture of *any* bomb and claiming it is evidence it comes > from Iran without any such markings visible and defiitely no proof that > it would have come from the Iranian government ? > > I am very disapointed that americans, who should, by now, realised they > really got suckered by the lying criminals at the white house into an > illegal war, continue to beleive the current allegations that are not > supported by any credible evidence. > > Fact: Iraq is a country currently occupied and governed by the americans > who installed a puppet government. It is perfectly natural for the > locals to wish to destabilise the situation because they will do > everything to not only kick the americans out, but also force them out > with their tail between their legs. The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need for Al Qaeda really. Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. There is one small problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the Arab speaking world. And what about the Americans in Iraq? Obviously they went to war without having a clue what to do when the war was over. They expected the population to cheer the Americans, to setup their own versions of the republican and democratic party (well, just a republican party would have been sufficient), and elect a kind of George W as new president. And so a new great democracy would have been born !! The American soldiers who went there knew they they belonged to the best army in the world, with the best weapons, and they were sent by the greatest democracy in the world, led by God's own representative on earth George W. Bush. They also had the best education in the world, and so I would not be surprised if many of them weren't even able to point out Iraq on the map of the world. To their surprise they noticed that there were no McDonalds, Burger Kings and Wallmarts in Iraq, and baseball was rather unknown as well. Conclusion: this was a primitive people, and they had no reservations showing that to the Iraqi people. For some strange reason the Iraqis did not appreciate this attitude. I'm sure this whole complex is one of the main reasons why the Americans have failed bitterly in Iraq. > > There can be no "victory" by the americans, and the quicker they admit > defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will > allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. (aka: gradual > widthdrwawal, not the "all or nothing" debates in the USA). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:17:33 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <46942FAD.B8B7BB8E@spam.comcast.net> Bill Todd wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Bill Todd wrote: > >> Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>> Well, I can understand you are notably annoyed at that, but all > >>> countries have the right to defend themselves. In times like these, > >>> where there are non-sane people out there trying to kill people over > >>> here > >> Hmmm - there's a pretty good case to be made that at least a lot of the > >> people attempting to wreak havoc here are not only entirely sane but > >> largely justified, based on what *we* have been doing to *them* for the > >> last few decades. Perhaps as a U.S. resident you're just a tad biased > >> in this area - a more objective observer might suggest that, unfortunate > >> as this may be, doing 'whatever it takes' to get us to shape up is > >> entirely reasonable after so many decades of failure by other means. > > > > (Donning full armor) > > > > Perhaps you might like to suggest to the group what the U.S. has done that - to > > the "sane" mind - in any way justifies the wanton destruction of the innocent > > that has become the norm of terrorism and the goal of the radical > > fundamentalists. Please restrict your citations to the U.S.'s actions against > > those who are attacking us, and leave out actions taken by the U.S. to > > support/protect its political/commercial allies. > > Now, exactly why in hell do you believe that our active aiding and > abetting of atrocities by those we choose to support should be off the > table here? Not relevant, since we do not set off car bombs, hijack commercial aircraft, or anything of the sort. That's not to say that what has been done should not be indictable, it probably is. How long others hold a grudge is beyond our control, just as how long the U.S. begrudges the radical fundamentalists is beyond their control. Revenge can lead to only one outcome: mutual obliteration. > If I pay someone to kill your family, or even just finance > and otherwise support their behavior without directly mandating it, > would you hold me blameless in the matter? Whether I do or not, what is the "sane" response, in your view? > Of course, our unnecessary, unwarranted, and out-right illegal > invasion/occupation of Iraq and consequent responsibility for something > now approaching one million Iraqi deaths wasn't even that indirect - and > in fact that's my primary reason for my present belief that *any and > every* action taken in an attempt to discourage our excesses can be > justified. Geez, Bill... You are, of course, entitled to your view, and you have the constitutionally protected right to express it. ...which brings us back to the discussion of what can be done vs. what should be done. Given the MIB's tendency to go "ape shit" these days, I'm not sure I'd want to be "seen" in a public forum fomenting insurrection and/or siding with the sworn enemies of the U.S. Hope you don't plan any air travel anytime during the remainder of your lifetime... > As for 'the innocent', no member of a democracy that indulges in such > actions can be considered wholly innocent unless they have devoted every > fibre of their being to trying to stop them. Throwing the baby out with the bath water, eh? Indicting an entire society for the actions of those who buy their way into government sounds like something I'd expect from our "friend" from Ohio. Yes, as corrupt and despicable as our government has become, it is still our government and until we can replace it with people of character and solid moral fibre and ethics, we must protect ourselves from those who choose to play God and make it their business to "punish" those of us who were powerless to prevent the actions of a few idiots who just happen to be in power here or are/were working for those in power here. Dunno 'bout you, but I will DAMNED before I will allow anyone to harm me or my family because of the actions of people I didn't vote for and am powerless to control. Cluefulness(?) aside, the point is that these people (radical fundamentalists) are the worst kind of criminals and sinners, even worse than those who do the U.S. gov't's bidding and commit unspeakable acts because such people don't THINK they are protecting democracy, they KNOW they are doing evil for their own ends which just happen to be the ends sought by the corrupt in our government. Soldiers cannot be faulted for obeying orders, that's what a soldier is - not his/her place to question those orders, but to carry them out or face the consequences. The radical fundamentalists actually think they are doing Divine bidding by commiting the greatest of crimes and the most unforgivable of sins. They are deluded - as even scripture says, the evil one (OBL?) will come and deceive many. U.S. agents are neither deceived nor deluded: they KNOW they are doing evil. I see no way - short of divine intervention - to resolve this. (Adding asbestos to armor) ...and that's not to mention the firestorm I could unleash by suggesting that the flight crews of the planes involved should have prevented 9/11. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:46:26 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <7wXki.252165$dC2.189772@newsfe13.lga> On 07/10/07 17:55, Dirk Munk wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Ron Johnson wrote: >>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >>> resistance by another name? >> >> Do you have any proof that it is Al Qaeda doing those deeds ? Or just >> beleieving the US military propaganda ? >> >> Have you seen any evidence that any bombs actually come from the >> Iranian govermment ? Or just beleive that propaganda from the US >> military showing some picture of *any* bomb and claiming it is >> evidence it comes from Iran without any such markings visible and >> defiitely no proof that it would have come from the Iranian government ? >> >> I am very disapointed that americans, who should, by now, realised >> they really got suckered by the lying criminals at the white house >> into an illegal war, continue to beleive the current allegations that >> are not supported by any credible evidence. >> >> Fact: Iraq is a country currently occupied and governed by the >> americans who installed a puppet government. It is perfectly natural >> for the locals to wish to destabilise the situation because they will >> do everything to not only kick the americans out, but also force them >> out with their tail between their legs. > > The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group > in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who > have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they > take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need > for Al Qaeda really. Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, > and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to > paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent > bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins > waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she > mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs > actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. There is one small > problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, > and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. This is long on generalities and short on specifics (maybe psychologists already know the specifics??) 4. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.xml Most suicide bombers are Muslim Suicide missions are not always religiously motivated, but according to Oxford University sociologist Diego Gambetta, editor of Making Sense of Suicide Missions, when religion is involved, the attackers are always Muslim. Why? The surprising answer is that Muslim suicide bombing has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran (except for two lines). It has a lot to do with sex, or, in this case, the absence of sex. What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny. By allowing some men to monopolize all women and altogether excluding many men from reproductive opportunities, polygyny creates shortages of available women. If 50 percent of men have two wives each, then the other 50 percent don't get any wives at all. > Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art > and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this > once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign > books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the > Arab speaking world. I read that it was power politics that made one of the Califs around AD1600 order that 130ish "Universities" be shuttered, and only about 12 (those that politically supported him) be left open. That is what was supposed to have caused the Great Decline. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:29:11 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/10/07 20:17, David J Dachtera wrote: [snip] > > ...which brings us back to the discussion of what can be done vs. > what should be done. Given the MIB's tendency to go "ape shit" > these days, I'm not sure I'd want to be "seen" in a public forum > fomenting insurrection and/or siding with the sworn enemies of > the U.S. > > Hope you don't plan any air travel anytime during the remainder > of your lifetime... Bill can rant all he wants about the evils of our government, and I *guarantee* you that no MIBs are going to visit him and he'll be able to fly anywhere in this country he wants. How do I know? If the MIBs were that out of control, 3/4 of the people who regularly participate on the Daily Kos and all the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people who horribly vilify W on a daily basis would have been detained by now. But they haven't. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.375 ************************