INFO-VAX Fri, 27 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 407 Contents: Re: %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols symb 7.3-2 ISO? Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Re: broken monitor, well sort of Re: broken monitor, well sort of Re: create/term/detach error Re: decnet startup failing Re: decnet startup failing Re: decnet startup failing Re: FC SAN recommendation Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th RE: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Set File /NoBackup Re: TCPware SMTP logging question Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:50:14 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols symb Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: Okay, there are some misperceptions here about what CLISYMTBL is... > So the dump was not showing the current and starting size, just the maximum? > The bit the got snipped was the definition of CLISYMTBL as displayed by SYSGEN or SYSMAN. This is a SYSGEN parameter, not a process quota, and is the number of pages (pagelets) reserved for symbols in the process address space when a process gets created. It is the same for all processes (though since it is dynamic, you could tweak it, create a process, then change it back...) > I would have assumed that the in-memory signature started with the minimum possible size for the image, and varied upwards as necessary. I would also have expected the memory signature to decrease back to the base size during execution time; that fact it did not do so if of course the key that identified the issue as a "memory leak" - howsoever it was caused. It's pre-allocated process virtual memory. Nothing to do with any images. DCL symbols survive image activation and run-down and are stored in this chunk of memory. > > I don't think you are saying that the image was just loaded with the maximum size at load time... but I could be making a really dumb assumption there. Nothing happens at load time. The virtual address space is created at process creation time (login or run/detached or spawn or batch job startup time), not at image activation time. > > OpenVMS seems to have a pretty simple executable image format, though simple could be more an appearance than reality. This is irrelevant to the present discussion, but I think on I64, VMS actually uses ELF format, just like Linux. (I know it does for object modules and object libraries, I'm not sure about executables, but they do include the ASCII characters E, L and F in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th bytes.) > > -Paul > > >>Paul Raulerson wrote: >> >>>Boy, this is going to sound dumb, but didn't it just run out of space? >There >>>has to be a memory leak or some kind of failure to deallocate something >>>there - it is using 1024 pages, which is its maximum. It looks to me like >it >>>started with 512? IIRC, the snipped stuff showed a current and max value of 1024 and a minimum and default value of 512. Like any sysgen parameter, the min and max values are the legal limits on the parameter. Outside that range, the system may crash and HP will tell you "Go away" :-) The current value is what the parameter was set to at boot time. The default value is what you get in an out-of-the-box system if no one (or nothing) has changed it. (This parameter is currently (VMS V8.3) a dynamic parameter, which means it can be changed without rebooting, but it doesn't change automatically; someone has to explicitly change it with SYSGEN or SYSMAN. "Dynamic" is indicated by a "D" in the last column, which was snipped...) >>> >>>I am probably wrong with this assumption, but it is such an easy answer... >> >> >>I'll ignore the :-) here. >> >>There does appear to be a leak here. The leak likely involves >>"constructed" DCL symbols -- symbols built at run-time to allow the >>construction of a DCL data array, for instance -- or potentially with >>logical names. It is conceivable that something else -- run-away >>allocation of I/O channels -- might trigger this leak (particularly if >>the run-time environment was already marginal), but symbols and logical >>names are the most common trigger. >> >>The CLISYMTBL system parameter doesn't get bumped automatically, it gets >>bumped after a change to MODPARAMS.DAT and a reboot, or via a direct >>SYSMAN parameter change and a reboot. I'm not aware of any system >>parameter that changes itself; all changes require some sort of manual >>intervention, upgrade, AUTOGEN or other such. Some parameters require a >>reboot before the change takes effect, and some parameters can be >>changed dynamically. > > > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:39:22 -0700 From: ohiorocks@gmail.com Subject: 7.3-2 ISO? Message-ID: <1185478762.616439.243170@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Hi All: We currently have production systems (with valid licenses) running OpenVMS 7.3-2. We need to load an Alpha ES45 with this version to replace one of our old Alpha boxes... of course the media has up and walked away. We're having a hell of a time getting a copy from HP in a reasonable amount of time. Is there anyone out there willing to create an ISO image of the 7.3-2 disks for me? Anyone have a source? Thanks for any assistance, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:25:24 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Message-ID: In article <1185478762.616439.243170@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, ohiorocks@gmail.com writes: > > >Hi All: > >We currently have production systems (with valid licenses) running >OpenVMS 7.3-2. We need to load an Alpha ES45 with this version to >replace one of our old Alpha boxes... of course the media has up and >walked away. > >We're having a hell of a time getting a copy from HP in a reasonable >amount of time. Is there anyone out there willing to create an ISO >image of the 7.3-2 disks for me? Anyone have a source? I may even have a spare set of CDs. Let me know if you haven't gotten any other offers. Contact me with an email or here. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:39:39 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Message-ID: <46A93ECB.65DDA175@spam.comcast.net> ohiorocks@gmail.com wrote: > > Hi All: > > We currently have production systems (with valid licenses) running > OpenVMS 7.3-2. We need to load an Alpha ES45 with this version to > replace one of our old Alpha boxes... of course the media has up and > walked away. > > We're having a hell of a time getting a copy from HP in a reasonable > amount of time. Is there anyone out there willing to create an ISO > image of the 7.3-2 disks for me? Anyone have a source? Well, you wouldn't want ISO-9660 images - ODS would choke on that. ODS images should work just fine. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:55:51 -0700 From: David B Sneddon Subject: Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Message-ID: <1185497751.827284.323270@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 26, 7:39 pm, ohioro...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi All: > > We currently have production systems (with valid licenses) running > OpenVMS 7.3-2. We need to load an Alpha ES45 with this version to > replace one of our old Alpha boxes... of course the media has up and > walked away. > > We're having a hell of a time getting a copy from HP in a reasonable > amount of time. Is there anyone out there willing to create an ISO > image of the 7.3-2 disks for me? Anyone have a source? > > Thanks for any assistance, > Mark Can you not just use an image backup of the current system? (And sort the licensing stuff out later.) Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:55:46 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Message-ID: <7dd80f60707261755w264b85e9o8309c82ddd9118e2@mail.gmail.com> On 7/26/07, ohiorocks@gmail.com wrote: > Hi All: > > We currently have production systems (with valid licenses) running > OpenVMS 7.3-2. We need to load an Alpha ES45 with this version to > replace one of our old Alpha boxes... of course the media has up and > walked away. If you are replacing a currently running system, why don't you just make a backup copy of the system disk of the system you will be replacing and restore it to the system disk of the new machine? After restoring, you will probably have to boot the machine using a minimum boot to fix any sysgen parameters and networking parameters. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 21:39:12 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: broken monitor, well sort of Message-ID: <46a91480$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <1185463804.696925.99420@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Volker Halle writes: >Steve, > >I maybe should have said: > >As OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 is out of support, no PUBLIC fixes can be >expected. Maybe. But I expect, that fixes for a PVS paying customer will get PUBLIC afterwards also... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 03:08:30 -0000 From: kiwi-red Subject: Re: broken monitor, well sort of Message-ID: <1185505710.183393.304620@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Thanks guys, I have asked my local support guy, Sek, in oz and he is looking at it. I assume we are supported, as we keep paying the bills ;-) FWIW, it is two Alpha's. Looking at rolling out Update 12 in the next month or so on Non prod and then see if we can get it in to production. Cheers kiwi On Jul 27, 5:39 am, pe...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > In article <1185463804.696925.99...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Volker Halle writes: > > >Steve, > > >I maybe should have said: > > >As OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 is out of support, no PUBLIC fixes can be > >expected. > > Maybe. But I expect, that fixes for a PVS paying customer will get > PUBLIC afterwards also... > > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER > Network and OpenVMS system specialist > E-mail pe...@langstoeger.at > A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:36:48 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: create/term/detach error Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > rtk wrote: > >> On Jul 20, 8:37 pm, rtk wrote: >> >>> I made the change and ran AUTOGEN with GETDATA and SETPARAMS. Then I >>> rebooted the system. And now it is dead.... nothing boots and all I >>> see on the small LCD display on the front of the box is "ec." >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what happened but I left the system off for a time and >> now it is running fine. Except, DECwindows still complains with the >> same message, that GBLSECTIONS is 222 and should be at least 280. >> >> When I did the AUTOGEN with GETDATA SETPARAMS there is a report file >> complaining that the MIN_GBLSECTIONS=300 that I added to MODPARAMS.DAT >> is superceded by the default min value of 600. >> MIN_GBLSECTIONS=300 was a wild, and wildly incorrect, guess. Sounds like your GBLSECTIONS was already 600, so it actually had no effect at all. The DECWINDOWS startup was saying you needed 280 global sections and you currently had 222 free, so you really needed (280-222)=58 more global sections, so the minimum fix would be to put an ADD_GBLSECTIONS=58 into your sys$system:modparams.dat, and run autogen and reboot. However, this assumes that nothing else needs any global sections, and nothing else failed to start due to a shortage of global sections. So I would bump this up quite a bit just to be safe, maybe double it to ADD_GBLSECTIONS=116, or round it up to 125 or 128 (depending if you're partial to decimal or binary!) AUTOGEN with feedback normally fixes resource shortage problems, but in a case like this, DECwindows is refusing to start, so it isn't using any of the 280 global sections it wants, so AUTOGEN sees you have 600 global sections allocated, 222 are free, and it thinks "over 1/3 are available, that's plenty!" and doesn't increase it. AUTOGEN might even decrease the number of global sections. Whoops! >> How might UAF stuff be interferring? The system has 128MB of RAM, >> surely that's enough for both TCP/IP and DECwindows? >> >> Ron >> >> > > The "ec" suggests that it might be having a problem in POST. > > The 128 MB is enough "by the book" but it seems parsimonious! There are > few things so pitiful as a RISC processor starved for memory! > 128MB should be enough to get things running, but I think it would be *much* happier with 256 or 512MB. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:13:59 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: <1185488039.728312.274370@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 26, 12:04 pm, jhjr4381 wrote: > We have an old Vax system (4300) that is clustered with an Alpha (2100 > 4/200) yes, I know, also old as dirt. However, users can't log on to > the Vax directly, only by logging on the the Alpha and doing a 'set > host xxx' can they log onto the Vax. So I'm assuming it's not attached > tothe network. > If I do a show net: > > $ show net > %NETWRK-E-NOAVAILABLE, network service information is unavailable at > this time > > What I've discovered, is that the startnet.com file has some errors. > The first one is: > $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:NETACP - > /NOACCOUNTING- > /NOAUTHORIZE- > /TRUSTED- > /AST_LIMIT=100- > /BUFFER_LIMIT=262144- > /EXTENT=1500- > /FILE_LIMIT=128- > /IO_BUFFERED=32767- > /IO_DIRECT=32767- > /QUEUE_LIMIT=16- > /ENQUEUE_LIMIT=255- > /MAXIMUM_WORKING_SET=350- > /PAGE_FILE=20480- > /PRIORITY=8- > /PRIVILEGES=CMKRNL- > /PROCESS_NAME=NETACP- > /UIC=[1,3] > %RUN-F-CREPRC, process creation failed > -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM, duplicate name > > With show process, I see that it already exists with devices attached, > privileges, etc. Can I assume that this is ok? If not, do I kill it > (and how) and re-run startnet.com? > Then further down I get: > > NCP > SET MODULE CONFIGURATOR KNOWN CIRCUITS ALL > %NCP-I-NOINFO, No information in database > > So i assume this either related, or another problem. Is there a > config com file or something I can run to automatically / manually > create whatever database this is? > > Then later on, I get: > Run sys$system:remacp - > /noaccounting - > /noauthorize - > / > privileges=(NOSAME,CMKRNL,LOG_IO,NETMBX,TMPMBX,SYSNAM) - > /uic=[1,3] - > /priority=8 - > /page_file=600053 - > /ast_limit=511 - > /buffer_limit=85304 - > /file_limit=256 - > /io_buffered=511 - > /process_name=remacp > %RUN-F-CREPRC, process creation failed > -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM, duplicate name > Again, I can see that this process already exists as well. > > Again, should I kill these processes and execute startnet again (or > does the aforementioned database have to be populated first)? Would > there be a backup (on disk) of this database? > > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I am a relative newbie. > As such, I can follow the clues, but not always find the answers (at > least not quickly). > > Thanks again! Daniel, It can be a challenge fixing networking problems without adequate information. Obviously, DECnet is up (otherwise the SET HOST command would not work). How are users expecting to connect to the VAX? Perhaps your problem is not DECnet but LAT? More information is needed. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:48:21 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: <2fd1e$46a95d4e$cef8887a$27386@TEKSAVVY.COM> Couple of things to try: SHOW LICENSE DVNETEND on all nodes. The same licence can't be used on multiple nodes (unless its units permit it) because the locks taken out by the licence database is cluster-wide. An invalid licence will allow DECNET to start but not to activate any circuits. SHOW NETWORK DECNET should tell you if it thinks decnet is up or down. SET HOST 0 tells you if decnet is running and at least able to connect to itself. MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES tells you which nodes DECNET knows about. To connect to another node, make sure the other node also knows about the originating node, ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:53:43 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: <3134f$46a95e90$cef8887a$27578@TEKSAVVY.COM> Another thing: make sure DECNET is started early in the boot, prior to TCPIP services and LAT. DECNET changes the ethernet address of the interface. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:25:31 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: FC SAN recommendation Message-ID: <46a8f526$1@flight> Tom Linden wrote: > Looking to put together a relatively small cluster (two nodes) with a small > SAN <= 6 disks. Will run 8.3 on Alpha, perhaps DS10L > How about an MSA1000? You can get them on the used market for a few thousand dollars. It will hold 14 drives and you can add an expansion cabinet for another 14 drives. There's a fibre switch option that can be installed directly into it so you don't need an external FC switch. If you want to spend a bit more the current product is an MSA1500, but as it uses the same controllers at this time it doesn't actually offer any better performance (although there is the potential to upgrade to better controllers in the future). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:19:17 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46A8F3B5.3000806@comcast.net> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> (If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen >> Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success >> of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think >> they are civilized!!) > > > When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there > was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire > off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year. > > Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized? > Philadelphians do it too! And, yes, it makes them uncivilized. Every once in a while it makes one of them dead! Think of it as evolution in action! And avoid the streets of Philadelphia on New Years Eve!! Unless, of course, you wish to contribute to the improvement of the race! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:50:06 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46a8fae8$1@flight> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> before you say they couldn't close the border, trust me, landmines do a >>> very good job of closing borders. >> And create a horrible mess of collateral damage to the local citizenry >> and their livestock for years after the initial conflict is over. > > Why? Unlike our adversaries, even though we do not currently use land > mines (and haven't for as long as I can remember) That's a good thing, let's not go there then. > we do have instructions > for using landmines which included mapping them so that they can be removed > when no longer needed. Or Al Quaeda could dig them up and turn them into roadside bombs. Since you intend to put up a fence and signs identifying the location of the mines they shouldn't be hard to find. They has access to lots of money, they shouldn't have any problem acquiring technology to help them safely locate and remove the mines. > We are the only Army in the world who > is expected to fight with one hand tied behind our backs. > Well, you and everybody else in NATO for a start. >> Planting landmines could easily be seen as a terrorist activity because >> of the way they indiscriminately kill without any prior threat assessment. > > Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that > say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me. > Seems like perfectly adequate warning. Sorry, you didn't mention the 10 foot chainlink fence you were going to build along the entire border - what's that going to cost? >> It's still the Iraqui's country, > > While this is a matter of opinion, after loosing a war.... Let's not go there, the US started the war and are the foreign occupiers - I hope US foreign policy isn't totally based on "might makes right". Even if one accepts the flimsy and now discredited excuse that Saddam was a "clear and present danger" that's no reason to deny the populace of Iraq a right to self determination. > >> but unless you plan to have the US Army maintain martial >> law in Iraq forever it's not a permanent solution. > > Did we maintain martial law in Germany forever? How about Japan? Did we have the same situation in Germany or Japan. I think not. I suspect most of the Germans were just glad the war was over and that the remaining Nazi loyalists were smart enough to realize the cause was lost and run for cover. In Japan I suspect that once the emperor surrendered it would have been against their culture to suggest they keep fighting. It's certainly a fact that you didn't have a civil war in Germany or Japan after WW II. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 15:54:05 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <2B0Uc409OCvX@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also > famous for this. Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded only by your willingness to display stupidity in public. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:39:06 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <%v8qi.7849$gZ1.4670@newsfe21.lga> On 07/26/07 15:54, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also >> famous for this. > > Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded > only by your willingness to display stupidity in public. *IF* it a fact that Cubans in Miami like to shoot guns in the air on New Years Eve, how is that racist? It is a *fact* that it used to be very popular among some African-Americans in New Orleans. Are you also going to call me racist? And I sure that some places where "white people" like to shoot guns instead of firing off firecrackers. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 22:09:19 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5gskcfF3h8mjoU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <46a8ce2b$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes: >> >> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there >> was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire >> off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year. >> >> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized? > > Yep. Bull crap. Those are not Americans, they're illegal immigrants from yet another third world country. Another group who would rather come here for a free handout than fight or work to improve their own country. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:14:47 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/26/07 17:09, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <46a8ce2b$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes: >>> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there >>> was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire >>> off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year. >>> >>> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized? >> Yep. > > Bull crap. Those are not Americans, they're illegal immigrants from > yet another third world country. Another group who would rather come > here for a free handout than fight or work to improve their own country. Cuban immigrants, even ones that come by boat, are all(?) legal (special dispensation because politicians want to win the Florida vote). You don't float 100 miles across the ocean just to get Medicare. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 22:26:06 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5gslbuF3i57adU1@mid.individual.net> In article <46a8fae8$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>>> before you say they couldn't close the border, trust me, landmines do a >>>> very good job of closing borders. >>> And create a horrible mess of collateral damage to the local citizenry >>> and their livestock for years after the initial conflict is over. >> >> Why? Unlike our adversaries, even though we do not currently use land >> mines (and haven't for as long as I can remember) > > That's a good thing, let's not go there then. > >> we do have instructions >> for using landmines which included mapping them so that they can be removed >> when no longer needed. > > Or Al Quaeda could dig them up and turn them into roadside bombs. You ever try to "dig up a land mine". That would be one way for us to reduce the number of Al Quaeda members. Of course, they would need to find the same suckers the leaders of Al Quaeda send to blow themselves up to do the digging. (Anyone ever notice it isn't the leaders like OIsama Bin Laden who are willing to be martyrs? It's the uneducated dupes.) > Since you intend to put up a fence and signs identifying the location of > the mines they shouldn't be hard to find. They has access to lots > of money, they shouldn't have any problem acquiring technology to help > them safely locate and remove the mines. Hahahahahahahahahaha. I take it you have never served in the military or been trained in mine laying or removal. I've been trained in both. > >> We are the only Army in the world who >> is expected to fight with one hand tied behind our backs. >> > > Well, you and everybody else in NATO for a start. Actually, no. For example, let's look at the next major conflict. Africa. The UN will be pressured to send troops. And Europe has already said they won't. They only agree to send their troops under very limited circumstances. And the circumstances in Africa don't meet their criteria. So who do you think the UN will end out calling on to sned troops? (Another interesting aside. We are being told to get out of Iraq becuase it has become a civil war and is not our problem. At the same time we are being pressured to send troops to Darfur which has always been a civil war. Go figure.) > >>> Planting landmines could easily be seen as a terrorist activity because >>> of the way they indiscriminately kill without any prior threat assessment. >> >> Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that >> say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me. >> Seems like perfectly adequate warning. > > Sorry, you didn't mention the 10 foot chainlink fence you were going > to build along the entire border - what's that going to cost? A lot less than the lives that are being lost everyday in Iraq due to insurgents. > >>> It's still the Iraqui's country, >> >> While this is a matter of opinion, after loosing a war.... > > Let's not go there, the US started the war and are the foreign > occupiers So, which is it? Are wer occupiers or not? It seems that our position changes as often as the wind. But then. that's the Liberal way. > - I hope US foreign policy isn't totally based on > "might makes right". No, being a civilized member of civilization make right. > Even if one accepts the flimsy and now > discredited excuse that Saddam was a "clear and present danger" that's > no reason to deny the populace of Iraq a right to self determination. Sadam was a "clear and present danger". And no matter how hard the Liberal press refuses to look at the facts, they were there for anyone willing to look to see them. > >> >>> but unless you plan to have the US Army maintain martial >>> law in Iraq forever it's not a permanent solution. >> >> Did we maintain martial law in Germany forever? How about Japan? > > Did we have the same situation in Germany or Japan. I think not. Of course you did. You had a madman determined to rule the world. One who cared for no one, not even his own people (or are you one of those who agrees that German Jews and German Gypsys and German Catholics and whatever Hitler decided to go after next were not really Germans anyway. > > I suspect most of the Germans were just glad the war was over and > that the remaining Nazi loyalists were smart enough to realize the > cause was lost and run for cover. The support for Hitler among the German populace was kuch more widespread than most Americans are aware. I knew people during my first time living in Germany who were members of the occupation forces of France. They thought nothing worse about what they were doing than what we thought about what we were doing when I was there in the early 70's. > > In Japan I suspect that once the emperor surrendered it would > have been against their culture to suggest they keep fighting. > > It's certainly a fact that you didn't have a civil war in > Germany or Japan after WW II. Because we "occupied" them and totally disarmed them and did not leave them the means to resist. And when the sane people once more took control we returned control to them and both are now civilized member of civilized society. Hmmmm..... Looks like it works if you really give the military the chance to do their job. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 22:29:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5gslhsF3i57adU2@mid.individual.net> In article <2B0Uc409OCvX@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also >> famous for this. > > Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded > only by your willingness to display stupidity in public. Facts are not racial bigotry. It has been displayed on television more times than I can recall that this is a decidely Hispanic trait in the US. I really find it interesting that if I were to fire a gun where I live it would result in my arrest within minutes and yet these displays are frewquently shown onthe news for everyone to see and this behavior is totally accepted and anyone who dares to speak out against it is a bigot. Go figure. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 22:32:59 GMT From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5gslorF3i57adU3@mid.individual.net> In article <%v8qi.7849$gZ1.4670@newsfe21.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/26/07 15:54, Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also >>> famous for this. >> >> Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded >> only by your willingness to display stupidity in public. > > *IF* it a fact that Cubans in Miami like to shoot guns in the air on > New Years Eve, how is that racist? I think you missed the point. He is calling me a racist for pointing out the fact that this seems to be a Hispanic cultural thing. Maybe they can't afford fireworks. Bullets at the local sporting goods store are a lot cheaper. > > It is a *fact* that it used to be very popular among some > African-Americans in New Orleans. Are you also going to call me racist? > > And I sure that some places where "white people" like to shoot guns > instead of firing off firecrackers. I know of no "white people" as "white people" are currently defined who would resort to gunfire in lieu of fireworks. Heck. people aroud here who can't afford "a pot to piss in" can sure come up with the money for fireworks come 4th of July. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 22:35:51 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5gslu7F3i57adU4@mid.individual.net> In article <46A8F3B5.3000806@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> (If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen >>> Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success >>> of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think >>> they are civilized!!) >> >> >> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there >> was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire >> off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year. >> >> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized? >> > > Philadelphians do it too! And, yes, it makes them uncivilized. Every > once in a while it makes one of them dead! > > Think of it as evolution in action! And avoid the streets of > Philadelphia on New Years Eve!! Unless, of course, you wish to > contribute to the improvement of the race! My father was a Philadelphian and I spent a lot of time there as a kid running those streets (before drugs and drug gangs) and I sure done't remember "Philadelphians" using firearms instead of fireworks. Or do you mean in modern times and primarily among the illegals who brought the practice with them fromthe third world? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 22:42:44 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5gsmb4F3i57adU5@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5grql7F3cupjhU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Believe what you will, but I have been a member of the US Army since >> 1968. I know what I was trained to do. I know what Ihave trained >> others to do. And I know what we, as a team can do. All we need is >> to have our hands untied. That hasn't happened since WWII, except in >> one rather well known incident, which actually involved the Marines >> more than the Army. :-( > > I believe we do have the best equipped, best trained military in > the world. > > That puts the odds on our side if everything else is 1:1. That > lets us overcome the odds when they somewhat off from 1:1. It > doesn't overcome 75:1. The odds are not 75:1. Contrary to what the Liberal press and the Democrats want you to think, the majority of Iraqis would really like to see the violence stop. And the majority of them are not shooting at Americans. Nor are they going out at night an blowing up the infrastructure we keep trying to rebuild. The problem is much worse now because we were not allowed to fix the problem from the beginning. It can still be fixed, but you have to let the military do it's job for that to happen. The Liberals will never allow that. Makes one wonder how much they profit from the status quo (or do I need to point out something that has been pretty much glossed over by the Liberal Press? The fact that one of the biggest anti-Iraq war spokesman in congress was also one of the people caught with his hands deeep in the ABSCAM scandal.) > > Do what the military didn't train you to do: think about it. Funny, I might offer the same advice to people outside the military. Stop letting the press and the demopcarats do all your thinking for you. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:01:15 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46A927BB.3040803@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <46A8F3B5.3000806@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>> >>>>(If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen >>>>Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success >>>>of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think >>>>they are civilized!!) >>> >>> >>> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there >>>was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire >>>off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year. >>> >>> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized? >>> >> >>Philadelphians do it too! And, yes, it makes them uncivilized. Every >>once in a while it makes one of them dead! >> >>Think of it as evolution in action! And avoid the streets of >>Philadelphia on New Years Eve!! Unless, of course, you wish to >>contribute to the improvement of the race! > > > My father was a Philadelphian and I spent a lot of time there as a kid > running those streets (before drugs and drug gangs) and I sure done't > remember "Philadelphians" using firearms instead of fireworks. Or do > you mean in modern times and primarily among the illegals who brought > the practice with them fromthe third world? > > bill > I'm referring to reports published in the Philadelphia Inquirer since 1999. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:35:38 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1185500138.205412.285060@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Jul 26, 3:50 pm, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>> before you say they couldn't close the border, trust me, landmines do a > >>> very good job of closing borders. > >> And create a horrible mess of collateral damage to the local citizenry > >> and their livestock for years after the initial conflict is over. > > > Why? Unlike our adversaries, even though we do not currently use land > > mines (and haven't for as long as I can remember) > > That's a good thing, let's not go there then. > > > we do have instructions > > for using landmines which included mapping them so that they can be removed > > when no longer needed. > > Or Al Quaeda could dig them up and turn them into roadside bombs. > Since you intend to put up a fence and signs identifying the location of > the mines they shouldn't be hard to find. They has access to lots > of money, they shouldn't have any problem acquiring technology to help > them safely locate and remove the mines. > > > We are the only Army in the world who > > is expected to fight with one hand tied behind our backs. > > Well, you and everybody else in NATO for a start. > > >> Planting landmines could easily be seen as a terrorist activity because > >> of the way they indiscriminately kill without any prior threat assessment. > > > Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that > > say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me. > > Seems like perfectly adequate warning. > > Sorry, you didn't mention the 10 foot chainlink fence you were going > to build along the entire border - what's that going to cost? > > >> It's still the Iraqui's country, > > > While this is a matter of opinion, after loosing a war.... > > Let's not go there, the US started the war and are the foreign > occupiers - I hope US foreign policy isn't totally based on > "might makes right". Even if one accepts the flimsy and now > discredited excuse that Saddam was a "clear and present danger" that's > no reason to deny the populace of Iraq a right to self determination. I'm also skeptical about the "clear and present danger". But... Now just under what circumstance would the Iraqis have "self determination" under Saddam or if we left now? Do you seriously believe 99% of the populace freely voted for him? Are you supporting the idea of a civil war for self-determination? That would be determination of the winner, I believe. > >> but unless you plan to have the US Army maintain martial > >> law in Iraq forever it's not a permanent solution. > > > Did we maintain martial law in Germany forever? How about Japan? > > Did we have the same situation in Germany or Japan. I think not. So? That doesn't in and of itself prove anything. It only shows that you can't use what happened in the previous case to determine what would happen in the present case. > I suspect most of the Germans were just glad the war was over and > that the remaining Nazi loyalists were smart enough to realize the > cause was lost and run for cover. If they were glad the war was over it was probably because they were losing and wanted the destruction of their country to come to an end. Many Germans supported the Nazis. > In Japan I suspect that once the emperor surrendered it would > have been against their culture to suggest they keep fighting. We dropped two atomic bombs on them! And no one else had any atomic bombs! That would be a damn stupid culture to keep fighting when your enemy has atomic bombs and no one else does. > It's certainly a fact that you didn't have a civil war in > Germany or Japan after WW II. I'll leave this statement for others. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:05:00 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <46a8fae8$1@flight>, > Malcolm Dunnett writes: > > You ever try to "dig up a land mine". That would be one way for us to > reduce the number of Al Quaeda members. If that's not possible then how would you propose to remove them once the conflict is over. What makes you think that Al-Quaeda can't afford to get the same technology and training as you would use? Why on earth wouldn't you think a lot of their supporters are former Iraqi soldiers who've probably already had the same training you had. >> Since you intend to put up a fence and signs identifying the location of >> the mines they shouldn't be hard to find. They has access to lots >> of money, they shouldn't have any problem acquiring technology to help >> them safely locate and remove the mines. > > Hahahahahahahahahaha. > > I take it you have never served in the military or been trained in mine > laying or removal. I've been trained in both. Well then which is it Bill, you can't have it both ways. Is it possible to safely remove them or isn't it. > Actually, no. For example, let's look at the next major conflict. Africa. > The UN will be pressured to send troops. And Europe has already said they > won't. They only agree to send their troops under very limited circumstances. > And the circumstances in Africa don't meet their criteria. Seems to me there are troops in Afghanistan from a number of countries (including European countries) who are working under the same conditions as the US troops. (not to mention the Canadians soldiers killed or injured by "friendly fire" from the "best trained army in the world" - maybe not as many as the Taliban have killed, but a significant percentage) > A lot less than the lives that are being lost everyday in Iraq due to > insurgents. > Perhaps, but I'll bet you the vast majority of those insurgents are Iraqis, so building a fence around the country isn't going to do much to stop them is it? >> Let's not go there, the US started the war and are the foreign >> occupiers > > So, which is it? Are wer occupiers or not? It seems that our position > changes as often as the wind. But then. that's the Liberal way. Changes according to whom? Who is denying that the US invaded Iraq? Who is denying the US is currently occupying Iraq? > > Sadam was a "clear and present danger". And no matter how hard the Liberal > press refuses to look at the facts, they were there for anyone willing to > look to see them. > Oh please, produce these facts then. Saddam wasn't a danger to anyone except the people of Iraq - and even there it seems the cure has been much worse than the ailment. > > Of course you did. You had a madman determined to rule the world. One > who cared for no one, not even his own people (or are you one of those > who agrees that German Jews and German Gypsys and German Catholics and > whatever Hitler decided to go after next were not really Germans anyway. Don't try to trot out such obvious straw men. We're not discussing whether Hitler or Saddam were madmen (it's obvious they were). We're discussing how much insurgency there was in those countries after the war was over. > The support for Hitler among the German populace was kuch more widespread > than most Americans are aware. I knew people during my first time living > in Germany who were members of the occupation forces of France. They > thought nothing worse about what they were doing than what we thought > about what we were doing when I was there in the early 70's. Well put it in an historical context. Many Germans felt they were justified in invading France because they lost Alsace-Lorraine in the treaty of Versailles. There was a long history of the two countries fighting over territory. > Because we "occupied" them and totally disarmed them and did not leave > them the means to resist. They had no access to fertilizer or gasoline? They couldn't steal a truck and crash it into a building or a military convoy. They couldn't start fires? They couldn't make bows and arrows? Throw rocks? If you could wave a magic wand and take away every Iraqi gun tomorrow you wouldn't stop the insurgents, they'd find other tools. How could you ever disarm them anyway. You've had absolutely no luck finding the WMDs that Bush told us were so prevalent in Iraq, how would you ever find stashes of AK47s or explosives? Conduct a comprehensive door-to-door search of every building in the country? Tear apart every wall, floor and ceiling looking for caches. If you had 10 million soldiers to send to Iraq you couldn't do it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:41:22 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that > say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me. > Seems like perfectly adequate warning. In case you had not heard, there is a worldwide ban on use of landmines, and the USA refused to sign it. Why does the USA insist on continued use of landmines ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:27:41 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/26/07 21:41, JF Mezei wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that >> say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me. >> Seems like perfectly adequate warning. > > > In case you had not heard, there is a worldwide ban on use of landmines, > and the USA refused to sign it. Why does the USA insist on continued > use of landmines ? Because they're damned effective at perimeter defense, and if the US military is ever in a conflict where it thinks it needs them, it wants to be able to use them. More importantly, maybe, is that the M18A1 Claymore Antipersonnel Mine when in tripwire (officially: Victim Initiated Detonation) mode is considered to be a land mine. But claymores are too valuable as force multipliers and ambush booby traps. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:12:49 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: <000a01c7d004$651e4e40$2f5aeac0$@com> I don't suppose you would mind posting your national, ethnic, and religious affiliation would you? It is beginning to sound like you are a bit of shill for those bigoted religious zealots over there. If you have a reason to be, it would be nice to know it, just to avoid saying anything terribly insulting to you. See, that is the way the U.S. works, we try to be respectful of other people's beliefs, but we absolutely insist on the right to have our individual beliefs respected too. And we back that right up with force of arms. This is something the people in that region of the world have *never* had, and it appears they are not able to accept or deal with, except in baby doses. Jacobin beliefs not withstanding. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:41 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: July the 4th > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages > that > > say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to > me. > > Seems like perfectly adequate warning. > > > In case you had not heard, there is a worldwide ban on use of > landmines, > and the USA refused to sign it. Why does the USA insist on continued > use of landmines ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:20:40 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/26/07 23:12, Paul Raulerson wrote: > I don't suppose you would mind posting your national, ethnic, and religious > affiliation would you? He's Canadian, eh. (The .ca should give it away, eh.) Lives in Quebec, eh. Probably likes beating people with long, crooked sticks, eh. > It is beginning to sound like you are a bit of shill for those bigoted > religious zealots over there. > If you have a reason to be, it would be nice to know it, just to avoid > saying anything terribly insulting to you. It's his rabid anti-Americanism. > See, that is the way the U.S. works, we try to be respectful of other > people's beliefs, And fail miserably. When even try, which isn't very often. > but we absolutely insist on the right to have our > individual beliefs respected too. And we back that right up with force of > arms. > > This is something the people in that region of the world have *never* had, > and it appears they are not able to accept or deal with, except in baby > doses. Jacobin beliefs not withstanding. > > > -Paul > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:41 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: July the 4th >> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages >> that >>> say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to >> me. >>> Seems like perfectly adequate warning. >> >> In case you had not heard, there is a worldwide ban on use of >> landmines, >> and the USA refused to sign it. Why does the USA insist on continued >> use of landmines ? > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:11:05 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Set File /NoBackup Message-ID: <46A8F1C9.2080603@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Jul 26, 9:49 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>Baxt...@tessco.com wrote: >> >>> What is the effect of setting a top level directory to / >>>NoBackup ??? >> >>>What I want to do is avoid backing up a directory tree when I do an >>>Image. >> >>>Dave. >> >>I'd say that it depends on your backup command. If you are doing an >>IMAGE backup, the directory will not be backed up but the contents will >>be because an IMAGE backup uses INDEXF.SYS to find the files to back up. > > > Have you checked this? For non-directory files it is certainly true > that the data are not backed up (while the metadata still is) but .DIR; > 1 files are special. (For example, they are saved [data included] even > if you /EXCLUDE them in a non-image BACKUP save operation.) I wouldn't > be surprised either way. > > [...] > > AEF > I haven't tested it, and won't unless someone pays me, but I doubt very much that it will work the way the OP hopes it will! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:02:32 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: TCPware SMTP logging question Message-ID: <1185483752.411755.97860@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 26, 11:09 am, pe...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > Oops. Sorry. You need the other ones (for outgoing mails): > > $! df SMTP_SYMBIONT_DEBUG TRUE > $! df SMTP_SYMBIONT_LOG filespec > > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Thanks I'll try these ASAP, ps-1: I must be getting burned out because a second glance through the manual today reveals the logical mentioned in your previous post. Time for a holiday. ps-2: Also, my current version of TCPware (7.7-2) requires me to prefix all your suggestions with "TCPWARE_" Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 2007 23:27:28 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <5gsov0F3irqe9U1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5grm6lF3h2n07U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Or it indicates a system that doesn't have lowercase, like VMS. :-) > > Poor joke. In 1978 VMS was the first system I used where I knew > I could use lowercase and actually did. > > I suspect I could have gotten away with it on my PDP-10, but none > of the manuals demonstrated it and most of our terminals didn't > have it. Hey, I think mixedcase is a good thing. But many people here don't share that opinion. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:08:32 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <4deqi.4280$9A6.186@trnddc01> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >>In article <5grm6lF3h2n07U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>>Or it indicates a system that doesn't have lowercase, like VMS. :-) >> >> Poor joke. In 1978 VMS was the first system I used where I knew >> I could use lowercase and actually did. >> >> I suspect I could have gotten away with it on my PDP-10, but none >> of the manuals demonstrated it and most of our terminals didn't >> have it. > > > Hey, I think mixedcase is a good thing. But many people here don't > share that opinion. :-) > Mixed case is *not* the same thing as case-sensitivity. Once again you are misrepresenting the opinions of the vast majority of VMS users. ;-) (Come to think of it, there's only one person on c.o.v who is famous for having a broken shift key...) > bill > > P.S. This post was brought to you in mixed case by an OpenVMS system. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.407 ************************