INFO-VAX Wed, 22 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 460 Contents: Re: Any filename problems going from VAX/ODS-2 to Alpha/ODS-5/case blind? COBOL Transactions? DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Looking for SEDT source code Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) a hoax Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Re: VMSTAR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:01:20 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Any filename problems going from VAX/ODS-2 to Alpha/ODS-5/case blind? Message-ID: <1187784080.423151.260110@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 9:39 pm, John Santos wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Aug 20, 10:06 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > >>From: AEF > > >>>> Why stop at V7.2? Of the V7's, I would (and did) pick V7.3-2. V7.2 > >>>>barely has ODS5. > > >>>Because I have the 7.2 disk(s) lying around somewhere and no others. Oops, make that discs. > > >> The Hobbyist CD-ROM has V7.3. Later kits are often available if you > >>ask for them. > > >>>I've got work to do, besides!!! (I have no VAX/Alpha/Integrity boxes > >>>at home.) > > >> Everyone needs VMS junk at home. What do you do with your time now? > > > Well, I spend 3 hours a day commuting, for one thing. > > Do you drive or ride public transportation? If the later, (or for > car-pooling on days you don't drive), how about a laptop with > SIMH and an emulated VMS system? I appreciate your efforts to help, but I will not go into any more detail about this. > > The rest is none of your business. >:-| > > >>>I think I'll go with the test drive option. Will it let me upload my > >>>TO.COM via FTP? > > >> FTP and Telnet to a TestDrive system work. There seems to be no > >>outbound network access from a TestDrive system. (You may be able to > >>get from one to itself or to another one, however. Much useful stuff, > >>like SET DISPLAY back to the real world, or wget to fetch something, is > >>doomed.) > > > That's fine. I just want to play around with TO.COM on an ODS-5 > > volume. > > AHA! SIMH-VAX won't do... You need an Alpha or Itanium emulator or > a Tadpole or an Itanium laptop... Or HP needs to release OpenVMS-VAX > V8.3 (with full ODS-5 support) from the secret lab in the sub-sub-sub- > basement at Spit Brook. :-) :-) I actually managed to get an account on Deathrow last night, but I had to VPN to work and do it from there. For some reason, telnet to gein didn't work from my home ISP. [...] > >> Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org [...] > John Santos [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:53:36 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W4634690_21064_1187805216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I posted this question in another, but I figured someone here might have a good idea they were willing to share. Most COBOL implementations provide a BEGIN TRANSACTION COMMIT/ROLLBACK construct. I have a need to update several files, all of which much be sucessful or = all of which much be rolled back, which would normally be easily handled = by the above COBOL construct. Suggestions have ranged from using RMS Journaling, to the HP transaction = manager, to using a database for transaction managemen. All of these sugg= estions would mostly likely work, but they add cost. I have no idea of th= e magnitude of that cost though. I'm also trying to avoid adding a databa= se because of the overhead (physcial and management) as well as the cost.= Does anyone have a rough idea just how much cost the RMS or transaction m= anager solution adds to the end user on a small machine? Assuming I pass = it on to the end-user directly "at cost." Or if John R. is reading this - any plans to add transaction management d= irectly into the compiler? Or is there transaction management built into = Pascal or Fortran that I can use to manage this? This cannot be an unusua= l situation, especially with VMS being used in financial markets. I'm also open to "sneaky tricks" from the past on how to do this safely w= ithout the added expense. Thanks -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W4634690_21064_1187805216-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:57:29 GMT From: "Robert Jarratt" Subject: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: I have been trying to find something that will help me to set up just enough DECnet to allow me to download the software to a DECserver, and connect together a small number of VAXstations I have at home (I am already networking with TCP/IP, but DECnet would be fun to play with too). There is a huge amount of documentation which would take me some time to work through and understand. Is there a resource somewhere that would allow me to get started a bit more quickly for the sake of domestic harmony? I am thinking along the lines of Phil Wherry's page for installing VMS. I tried setting it up and got as far as choosing a local namespace (seems simple), but the next question about the location of the file stumped me somewhat. Thanks Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:24:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <39569$46cbd6ba$cef8887a$29878@TEKSAVVY.COM> Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been trying to find something that will help me to set up just enough > DECnet to allow me to download the software to a DECserver, and connect > together a small number of VAXstations I have at home Do yourself a favour and get the "real" decnet (decnet 4). It is MUCH easier to install, configure and maintain and you won't have to fight the osftware to find a way to elininate annoying OPCOM messages. Decnet 4 also takes a MUCH smaller footprint on your system disk and in memory. It should be part of the VMS distribution CD. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:30:25 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <07082201302538_20200296@antinode.org> From: "Robert Jarratt" > Is there a resource somewhere that would allow me to get started a bit more > quickly for the sake of domestic harmony? I am thinking along the lines of > Phil Wherry's page for installing VMS. I don't know. I've always just bumbled my way through it. > I tried setting it up and got as far as choosing a local namespace (seems > simple), but the next question about the location of the file stumped me > somewhat. I assume that you're running NET$CONFIGURE.COM. What, exactly, was "the next question about the location of the file"? Miss Cleo seems to be unavailable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:31:44 -0700 From: mcbill20@yahoo.com Subject: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Message-ID: <1187767904.199876.204390@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com> A few hours ago I noticed my VMS console going crazy with intrusion messages. Someone was trying to breakin via FTP. The console messages of course had the date/time, program (FTP), username ("administrato"), and the remote host. When I did a "show intru" it showed some 6400 attempts. I did a whois on the remote host and found it's a Dallas-based internet hosting service using Linux servers. I sent an e-mail to the network admin about the problem and received a request for logs so they could take action. The problem is that the breakin attempts do not show up in operator.log and now that it's several hours later I can't even do a "show intrusion". Where are these logs kept? Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:16:15 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Message-ID: In article <1187767904.199876.204390@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, mcbill20@yahoo.com writes: >A few hours ago I noticed my VMS console going crazy with intrusion >messages. Someone was trying to breakin via FTP. The console messages >of course had the date/time, program (FTP), username ("administrato"), >and the remote host. When I did a "show intru" it showed some 6400 >attempts. > >I did a whois on the remote host and found it's a Dallas-based >internet hosting service using Linux servers. I sent an e-mail to the >network admin about the problem and received a request for logs so >they could take action. > >The problem is that the breakin attempts do not show up in >operator.log and now that it's several hours later I can't even do a >"show intrusion". Where are these logs kept? In the security audit journal. See ANALYZE/AUDIT. Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:41:47 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Message-ID: <07082207414753_20200296@antinode.org> From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) In article <1187767904.199876.204390@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, mcbill20@yahoo.com writes: > >A few hours ago I noticed my VMS console going crazy with intrusion > >messages. Someone was trying to breakin via FTP. The console messages > >of course had the date/time, program (FTP), username ("administrato"), > >and the remote host. When I did a "show intru" it showed some 6400 > >attempts. > >[...] > In the security audit journal. See ANALYZE/AUDIT. I normally do (from SYS$MANAGER): anal /audi /full /sinc = /outp = aa where: ALP $ show logi aa "AA" = "SYS$MANAGER:AA.OUT" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) and SYS$MANAGER:AA.OUT has W:RE protection, so that I can easily include it in my (non-SYSTEM) e-mail. (My own login.com also defines "AA".) For FTP-related complaints, I also include any relevant data from: sys$sysdevice:[tcpip$ftp]tcpip$ftp_anonymous.log sys$sysdevice:[tcpip$ftp]tcpip$ftp_run.log (In the latter, you can see the whole "Administrator".) I have am AC. on those which allows me to read them (IDENTIFIER=[SMS],ACCESS=READ), "type /tail aa" is useful for determining the next "" to specify. I suppose that one could also automate that part, perhaps using the file's date instead of its contents. I haven't felt the need yet. This scheme serves for SSH and other attacks, too, but the FTP password-guessing sessions make for the most impressive volume (>10X the typical SSH attack). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 08:42:05 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Message-ID: In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: > In article <1187767904.199876.204390@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, mcbill20@yahoo.com writes: >>A few hours ago I noticed my VMS console going crazy with intrusion >>messages. Someone was trying to breakin via FTP. The console messages >>of course had the date/time, program (FTP), username ("administrato"), >>and the remote host. When I did a "show intru" it showed some 6400 >>attempts. >> >>I did a whois on the remote host and found it's a Dallas-based >>internet hosting service using Linux servers. I sent an e-mail to the >>network admin about the problem and received a request for logs so >>they could take action. >> >>The problem is that the breakin attempts do not show up in >>operator.log and now that it's several hours later I can't even do a >>"show intrusion". Where are these logs kept? > > In the security audit journal. See ANALYZE/AUDIT. After ensuring you have auditing of breakin attempts enabled. See SHOW AUDIT. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:42:40 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 08/21/07 22:38, Neil Rieck wrote: [snip] > Example-3, everyone today loves the King James Version but it appears > that this book is based upon a 12th century manuscript that just might > have been the worst choice for a bible (but there were not many others > available in Western Europe at the time) Well, no, everybody does *not* love the KJV. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:13:37 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187784817.251805.122290@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > Here's one for Bob. (hope it makes your head spin) you can trot out all the atheist head cases you want trying to deny the bible and that Christ existed ... everyone agrees that He did ... and all those dead people in Rome and around the world did not just let themselves die for no reason ... they all saw something that changed them completely, enough to die for it ... I posted this awhile ago ... this should make your head spin ... http://www.jimandpenny.com/en/ http://www.baseinstitute.org/features/mtsinai.htm http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm http://www.wyattmuseum.com/mount-sinai.htm I am still waiting for you to explain this ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:25:11 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187785511.535260.53770@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 8:13 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > > Here's one for Bob. (hope it makes your head spin) > > you can trot out all the atheist head cases you want > trying to deny the bible and that Christ existed ... > > everyone agrees that He did ... and all those dead > people in Rome and around the world did not just let > themselves die for no reason ... they all saw something > that changed them completely, enough to die for it ... > I never said that Jesus didn't exist. There are many (so called "profane sources" that say he did) I did say that the author of the book (the James A. Gray Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) claimed that our bible has been heavily modified over the past 1900 years. Apparantly are large number of his peers agree with him. (Oh and by the way, he first learned this stuff while attending an AMerican Bible College) Rather than throw a bunch of web sites at me, why not just read the book then tell me what you think. NSR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:30:21 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1187784817.251805.122290@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > you can trot out all the atheist head cases you want > trying to deny the bible which one of the many versions that claim to be true ? Seems what you call bible has seen as many patches as has M$ Windoze. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:57:35 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187801855.127410.266700@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > Here's one for Bob. (hope it makes your head spin) > > Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why > > When world-class biblical scholar Bart Ehrman first began to study the > texts of the Bible in their original languages he was startled to > discover the multitude of mistakes and intentional alterations that > had been made by earlier translators. [...] You might as well try to convince a leopard to change its spots. Religious writings are self-protected by their insistence that "only if you open your heart to (Deity-of-reference) will you know the truth." In other words, their understanding requires faith and those without faith can not understand them. Atheists and nay-sayers are acting under the influence of Satan, whose goalis to tempt and beguile the faithful. See the links Bob provided. They have nothing to do with anything your post addressed. If you attack any part of the Holy Book, you will be rebutted with another contradicting scripture or historical "fact." Face it. Those old scholars did a good job, and if they were around today they'd probably be working in either in politics or marketing. Most of today's Biblical scholars understand the points you've made and many life-times have been spent studying them. These following links won't be of interest to Bob, but they might be to someone interested in following the points you made (beyond Wiki.) These sites are non-secular but attempt to tell the Bible's history factually with minimum bias (from what I have seen --- I obviously haven't followed every sub-link or I'd still be caught in the web.) http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm ******* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:09:40 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1187784817.251805.122290@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: >> Here's one for Bob. (hope it makes your head spin) > >you can trot out all the atheist head cases you want >trying to deny the bible and that Christ existed ... > I think most people would agree that there was probably a historical figure but how much he and his teachings resembled what is portrayed in the Bible is more open to debate. As recent discoveries of lost gospels and other early christian writings have shown there existed many different versions of Christianity in the first and second centuries. >everyone agrees that He did ... and all those dead >people in Rome and around the world did not just let >themselves die for no reason Pretty much all religions have individuals within them who are prepared to die for their faith - for a modern example just think of the Islamic suicide bombers. (I know you will critise me for that analogy since the early Christians weren't blowing up the Romans but as far as they are concerned they are dying for their faith. However if you don't like that analogy think of all the Jews who suffered persecution during the Middle Ages rather than convert to Christianity.) Being prepared to suffer and die for your faith doesn't imply any validity to that faith just that you believe in it very strongly. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >... they all saw something >that changed them completely, enough to die for it ... > >I posted this awhile ago ... this should make your >head spin ... > >http://www.jimandpenny.com/en/ >http://www.baseinstitute.org/features/mtsinai.htm >http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm >http://www.wyattmuseum.com/mount-sinai.htm > >I am still waiting for you to explain this ... > ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 12:49:14 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1187784817.251805.122290@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: >> Here's one for Bob. (hope it makes your head spin) > > you can trot out all the atheist head cases you want > trying to deny the bible and that Christ existed ... > > everyone agrees that He did ... and all those dead I'm an atheist, but I won't be a a head case for you. I'm quite sure everyone I know, including all the atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Christians (well, duh), Bhudists, ... agree that Jesus of Nasareth did exist. Trying to make everyone beleive that Jesus is God on Earth is entirely another thing. Records show that early Christians did not agree on whether Jesus was devine, that was made dogma by the Catholic Church some centuries later. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:40:23 +0100 From: "Paul McIlfatrick" Subject: Re: Looking for SEDT source code Message-ID: > I'll check. I think the one I have was from Anker's site, which seems > not to be working now. If not I'll mail you a copy. The source is in What do you know - following my original post Anker Berg-Sonne e-mailed me! He has made his source code available to me and I have now downloaded it. Asked about the status of his source code, Anker replied "You can do anything you want with the source code. I stopped working on Sedt many years ago (probably a mistake, but too late now), and just wish that the work benefits as many as possible." Also, he has OKed making his e-mail address available. It is: bostonsearover gmail com Regards Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:14:21 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: <1187784861.098287.131890@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 1:04 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/21/07 22:48, Neil Rieck wrote: > [...snip...] > > It's interesting that you use dogmatic religion as an example of > what PR scientific journals are supposed to do. Interesting and > troubling. > Perhaps it was a poor choice of words while typing at midnight. So let me expand my point of view: My cousin is a Lutheran minister with more formal education than 10 of us. He's a real nice guy but is starting to see the world "through a glass darkly" (one view: religion). One of the things he always brings up is the attack on the church by science. I don't see it but he does. He also likes to bring up all the border issues between science and relgion like evolution, stem cell research, big bang theory (which always involves the age of the universe), etc. while longing for the days when the church had more control of all education. What he sees as an attack on religion is just the pressure on his culture coming from the rational side of society. He doesn't accept the fact that when Christian relgion has more control over our society then the door is opened a crack for all the other religions (for example, In Ontario Canada the Muslim community is trying to get sharia law made legal; The governement of Austrailia just refused this outright) But back to my original point about dogma. Science relies on experiments to sort out what is true from false. Sometimes science will publish something false, but a future experiment will set the records straight. But here's the catch: science will never be able to disprove certain things like the existance of God so the relgious people really have nothing to worry about on this point. On the flip side, there are no experiements to prove or disprove the religious idea just published. All relgious "proofs" rely on: 1) more-ancient writings when talking about the bible 2) the writings of a small group of scientists (usually not peer reviewed) (usually working outside of their area of expertise) 3) complete fiction (like the lie that Darwin recanted on his death- bed) But in both cases (science or religion or whatever) there are groups of people peer-reviewing material to throttle what ideas make it into large circulation publications. NSR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:58:10 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: >On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: >[snip] >> >> As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people >> believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe >> this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other >> way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned >> the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific >> disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed >> climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's > >The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer >orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific >orthodoxy. > Except of course thirty years ago the scientific orthodoxy was worrying about an imminent ice age. Global warming has only become the scientific orthodoxy relatively recently. As you imply with your "peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific orthodoxy" science tends to be conservative and only changes to a new orthodox position when the evidence supporting the new position and undermining the old orthodoxy is fairly massive. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >-- >Ron Johnson, Jr. >Jefferson LA USA > >Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:52:29 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) a hoax Message-ID: On 08/22/07 07:14, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 22, 1:04 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 08/21/07 22:48, Neil Rieck wrote: >> > [...snip...] >> It's interesting that you use dogmatic religion as an example of >> what PR scientific journals are supposed to do. Interesting and >> troubling. >> > > Perhaps it was a poor choice of words while typing at midnight. So let > me expand my point of view: > > My cousin is a Lutheran minister with more formal education than 10 of > us. He's a real nice guy but is starting to see the world "through a > glass darkly" (one view: religion). One of the things he always brings > up is the attack on the church by science. I don't see it but he does. > He also likes to bring up all the border issues between science and > relgion like evolution, stem cell research, big bang theory (which > always involves the age of the universe), etc. while longing for the > days when the church had more control of all education. What he sees > as an attack on religion is just the pressure on his culture coming > from the rational side of society. He doesn't accept the fact that > when Christian relgion has more control over our society then the door > is opened a crack for all the other religions (for example, In Ontario > Canada the Muslim community is trying to get sharia law made legal; > The governement of Austrailia just refused this outright) We agree on this. > But back to my original point about dogma. Science relies on > experiments to sort out what is true from false. Sometimes science > will publish something false, but a future experiment will set the > records straight. But here's the catch: science will never be able to > disprove certain things like the existance of God so the relgious > people really have nothing to worry about on this point. > > On the flip side, there are no experiements to prove or disprove the > religious idea just published. All relgious "proofs" rely on: And, until Evolutionary Biology, there was no way the fossil record could *prove* evolution via repeatable experimentation. Same with Astronomy and the Big Bang. (Yes, I do think think that that both happened/are happening.) Similarly, how do you prove Anthropogenic Global Climate Change via repeatable experimentation? You can't. All you can do is, like a policeman, collect "evidence" and try to fit a theory to it. And if your data is (a) bad (collected from ocean surface water or concrete/asphalt heat sinks) or (b) spotty (not enough data collection points in the oceans) or (c) not going back far enough or (d) your model is flawed, then your conclusion is ergo suspect. > 1) more-ancient writings when talking about the bible > > 2) the writings of a small group of scientists (usually not peer > reviewed) (usually working outside of their area of expertise) Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > 3) complete fiction (like the lie that Darwin recanted on his death- > bed) > > But in both cases (science or religion or whatever) there are groups > of people peer-reviewing material to throttle what ideas make it into > large circulation publications. "Throttle" is another troubling double-meaning word you use. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 06:17:00 -0700 From: rtk Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: <1187788620.290336.110930@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com> Thanks for all the helpful replies! I tried reading the tape as suggested and received an error about end of file (or similar) and nothing was read. So, I decided to just trash the tape and use it to back up the system disk. I booted the Hobbyist CD and went to DCL and did something along these lines: $$$ mount dka0: $$$ mount/foreign mka300: $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:22_aug_07.bck/save_set and it appears to be working, though I'm not sure this is exactly what I want. I got an error about the tape label and chose the OVERWRITE option. Doing this: $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300: save me an error about requiring a save set name. But, if I need to restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:46:27 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: <07082208462730_20200296@antinode.org> From: rtk > $$$ mount dka0: > $$$ mount/foreign mka300: BACKUP should do that second one for you, but it's harmless. > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:22_aug_07.bck/save_set > > and it appears to be working, though I'm not sure this is exactly what > I want. I got an error about the tape label and chose the OVERWRITE > option. Doing this: > > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300: > > save me an error about requiring a save set name. Yes, it would. "/save_set" is the default for tape, so you could omit that. (Date strings like "2007-08-22" sort better than ones like "22_aug_07".) A /LABEL qualifier would prevent the label complaint, but if you're doing it manually, it's easy enough to say "O". The label is limited to six characters, so if your saveset name is something like "F07822.BCK" (or if you specify the label explicitly), you can get (almost) the whole date encoded into the tape label (hexadecimal month, of course), with "F" for "Full" or "I" for "Incremental" as a bonus. (Or was that "I" for "Image", ...?) > But, if I need to > restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it > from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? That's the idea. (What could go wrong? Only one way to find out.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 09:03:17 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: In article <1187788620.290336.110930@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, rtk writes: > Thanks for all the helpful replies! > > I tried reading the tape as suggested and received an error about end > of file (or similar) and nothing was read. Magnetic tape drives, including DAT drives emulate 9 track mag tape. The data on the emulated media consists of blocks and tape marks. [On 9 track, a block was a bunch of data written on parallel tracks (8 bits plus parity) at, for instance, 1600 bits per inch. So a 512 byte block would be about 1/3 of an inch of tape. Between each block you would have an "inter-record gap" which was somewhere around 1/2 of an inch long (the size could vary) and allowed room for the tape to slow down to a stop after processing one block and speed back up before processing the next one. I've never been clear on how a "tape mark" was encoded on 9 track tape] A block is just a block of data. On VMS it will be limited to 65534 bytes or so. Most tapes are written with block sizes far less than this. A tape mark is a special pattern on the tape. It is distinguishable from a block and is usually treated as end of file. So if you: $ MOUNT MKA300: /BLOCK=65534 ! Be sure to specify a block size ! at least as large as the largest block ! you expect on the tape. Failure to ! do this can result in "data overrun" $ COPY /LOG MKA300: FILE1.DAT %COPY-I-COPIED, 3 records copied $ What you'll get in FILE1.DAT is one record for each block on the tape up to the position of the first tape mark. To get the next file on the tape, you would repeat the COPY: $ COPY /LOG MKA300: FILE2.DAT %COPY-I-COPIED, 56712 records copied And repeat... $ COPY /LOG MKA300: FILE3.DAT %COPY-I-COPIED, 3 records copied $ COPY /LOG MKA300: FILE4.DAT %COPY-I-COPIED, 0 records copied $ COPY /LOG MKA300: FILE5.DAT -- parity error -- This last is a clue. The standard "end of volume" indication on a reel of magnetic tape is two back-to-back tape marks. This looks just like an empty file. You usually want to stop reading from the tape once you've hit that "0 records copied" file. [In the case of labelled mag tape, back-to-back tape marks that enclose an empty file are treated differently from back to back tape marks that follow an EOV label, so it isn't always guaranteed to be the case that back to back tape marks indicate end of volume] Often, magnetic tape data is stored in a labelled format. The first "file" on the tape isn't a file at all, but is, instead, a short series of blocks describing the data that follows. Standard labelling schemes put labels both before and after every file and at the start and end of every reel in a multi-reel volume set. ANSI and IBM standard labels are stored in 80 byte blocks using ASCII (for ANSI labels) or EBCDIC (for IBM labels) text in the labels. This was very true historically, but I have no idea what kind of labelling scheme (if any) is used by modern PC backup programs. > So, I decided to just > trash the tape and use it to back up the system disk. I booted the > Hobbyist CD and went to DCL and did something along these lines: I guess it's trash now and the above explanation is largely useless. For your information, VMS BACKUPs are stored using the ANSI labelling convention. > $$$ mount dka0: > $$$ mount/foreign mka300: > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:22_aug_07.bck/save_set > and it appears to be working, though I'm not sure this is exactly what > I want. I got an error about the tape label and chose the OVERWRITE > option. Doing this: > > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300: > > save me an error about requiring a save set name. But, if I need to > restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it > from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? Try: $ BACKUP /REWIND /IMAGE /VERIFY DKA0: MKA300:mysaveset.bck You can have multiple save sets per tape. You probably want to specify /REWIND to make sure that your backup starts at the beginning of the tape, overwriting any previous data and tape labels. [It would be embarrassing to restore from the oldest save set on a tape with three identically named save sets and not realize that you were running from a 2 month old backup instead of something current. It's also painful to wait for the drive to skip over huge save sets on its way to finding the one you're after] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:26:09 -0700 From: rtk Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: <1187792769.220354.116440@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 8:03 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > I guess it's trash now and the above explanation is largely useless. Nope, it isn't. I have another DAT tape, plus my brother has a few he might want read. Thanks, this is helpful. That tape was written on a Macintosh, so heaven knows how it might be formatted. Also, thanks for the help on how to make the backup. I think I'll start again once this one finishes and do as you suggested to make sure it is a useful backup. The drive is 2.1GB in size, I hope that fits on one tape. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:42:44 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: <1187793764.099033.178410@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 9:17 am, rtk wrote: > Thanks for all the helpful replies! > > I tried reading the tape as suggested and received an error about end > of file (or similar) and nothing was read. So, I decided to just > trash the tape and use it to back up the system disk. I booted the > Hobbyist CD and went to DCL and did something along these lines: > > $$$ mount dka0: > $$$ mount/foreign mka300: > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:22_aug_07.bck/save_set > > and it appears to be working, though I'm not sure this is exactly what > I want. I got an error about the tape label and chose the OVERWRITE > option. Doing this: > > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300: > > save me an error about requiring a save set name. But, if I need to > restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it > from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? > > Ron No save set name?! Make sure each save set on the same tape has a different name. Otherwise you will get a mismatch during the verify pass! And you'll have trouble selecting a save set, of course. Why the triple dollar signs? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:36:34 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005B3D388525733F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" AEF wrote on 08/22/2007 10:42:44 AM: > On Aug 22, 9:17 am, rtk wrote: > > Thanks for all the helpful replies! > > > > I tried reading the tape as suggested and received an error about end > > of file (or similar) and nothing was read. So, I decided to just > > trash the tape and use it to back up the system disk. I booted the > > Hobbyist CD and went to DCL and did something along these lines: > > > > $$$ mount dka0: > > $$$ mount/foreign mka300: > > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:22_aug_07.bck/save_set > > > > and it appears to be working, though I'm not sure this is exactly what > > I want. I got an error about the tape label and chose the OVERWRITE > > option. Doing this: > > > > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300: > > > > save me an error about requiring a save set name. But, if I need to > > restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it > > from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? > > > > Ron > > No save set name?! Make sure each save set on the same tape has a > different name. Otherwise you will get a mismatch during the verify > pass! And you'll have trouble selecting a save set, of course. > > Why the triple dollar signs? That's the way the CD prompts at DCL from its menu. > > AEF > --=_alternative 005B3D388525733F_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote on 08/22/2007 10:42:44 AM:

> On Aug 22, 9:17 am, rtk <oneelkr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for all the helpful replies!
> >
> > I tried reading the tape as suggested and received an error about end
> > of file (or similar) and nothing was read.  So, I decided to just
> > trash the tape and use it to back up the system disk.  I booted the
> > Hobbyist CD and went to DCL and did something along these lines:
> >
> > $$$ mount dka0:
> > $$$ mount/foreign mka300:
> > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:22_aug_07.bck/save_set
> >
> > and it appears to be working, though I'm not sure this is exactly what
> > I want.  I got an error about the tape label and chose the OVERWRITE
> > option.  Doing this:
> >
> > $$$ backup/image/verify dka0: mka300:
> >
> > save me an error about requiring a save set name.  But, if I need to
> > restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it
> > from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct?
> >
> > Ron
>
> No save set name?! Make sure each save set on the same tape has a
> different name. Otherwise you will get a mismatch during the verify
> pass! And you'll have trouble selecting a save set, of course.
>
> Why the triple dollar signs?

That's the way the CD prompts at DCL from its menu.

>
> AEF
>
--=_alternative 005B3D388525733F_=-- ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 12:35:15 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: In article <1187788620.290336.110930@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, rtk writes: > > save me an error about requiring a save set name. But, if I need to > restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it > from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? Yes. You can mount the tape as a labeled tape (not /foreign) and get a DIRECTORY listing of the saveset name if you didn't write it on the tape. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 12:45:23 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <1187788620.290336.110930@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, rtk writes: >> >> save me an error about requiring a save set name. But, if I need to >> restore my system disk at some future point I should be able to do it >> from the save set after booting the Hobbyist CD, correct? > > Yes. You can mount the tape as a labeled tape (not /foreign) and > get a DIRECTORY listing of the saveset name if you didn't write it > on the tape. If it's the first (or only) save set on the tape, you can also do the restore without a save set name: $ BACKUP /IMAGE MKA300: DKA0: By default, a restore operation will pick the first [or next if you're already in the middle of the tape] save set from the tape. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:12:02 -0700 From: dooleys@snowy.net.au Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <1187770322.999877.35390@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com> > A vendor with any sense of shame would have supplied the fix for...... You imply that you know of such vendors :) Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:34:47 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > Sent: August 21, 2007 10:28 PM > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:59 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > > > Sent: August 21, 2007 9:39 PM > > > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > > > > > > What are the chances of clustering Solaris or any other OS > platform > > > on > > > > X86, SPARC and soon, > > > > Power, in the same cluster and have Them all access the same file > > > > system concurrently? > > > > > > Depending upon what exactly you mean by clustering, pretty darn > good. > > > ;) > > > I can, today, have AIX systems share the same hardware devices just > > as > > > happy as a duck in water. Even IPL devices, though of course, swap > > > filesystems > > > have to be different. (By share I mean not over the SAN, not over > the > > > network.) > > > > > > Been able to do that for quite a while... > > > > > > > With different server HW architectures and the same OS? > > > > I know AIX is active-passive clustering, but what different HW > > architectures and AIX can > > you cluster together? > > > > Just the different versions of POWER I am afraid, but still... :) > Ahhhh .. you mean like clustering different versions of Alpha ..EV4, EV5, E= V6/7 etc For me, being able to cluster three totally different hw architectures with= different versions of the same OS is a bit more of a challenge. Imho, it really is a = tribute to the overall design of the OS in terms of its flexibility and adaptability. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:51:11 -0000 From: mahesh.atk@gmail.com Subject: Re: VMSTAR Message-ID: <1187794271.815616.199500@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 7:52 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: "Tom Linden" > > > I am getting an EOF tring to extract a large directory and suspect size > > issue. > > Issue? Is that anything like a PROBLEM? > > > multics.tar;1 3867460 21-AUG-2007 12:50:12.76 [SYSTEM] > > > as you can see it is almost 2GB. I created the tar with cygwin and I > > don't think > > it is to blame. > > "[A]lmost 2GB" should mean that there's almost a reason to suspect a > size PROBLEM. > > > Is there a known issue with VMSTAR? > > VMS TAR V3.4-1 (Nov 29 2001) > > I think that it was known to have been issued around Nov 29 2001. > Does that count? Or did you mean a known PROBLEM? In fact, VMSTAR has > a few problems, but I don't know if any of them would explain this > particular failure. I assume that you used GNU "tar" to make the > archive, and GNU "tar" has the ability to defeat VMSTAR in a number of > ways. For a good time, you might try a modified (unreleased, hardly > tested, possibly improved) edition: > > http://antinode.org/ftp/vmstar/v3r5_pre1_src.zip > > When you're complaining about a problem to the man at the car dealer > service department, he calls your problem an "issue" in the hope that if > he doesn't _call_ it a problem, you won't think that you _have_ a > problem. Issues get discussed. Problems get solved. (Or not.) And > that's only after he stops calling your complaint a "concern". _He_ can > call a complaint or a problem anything he wants, but there's no reason > for the rest of us to cooperate in his attempts to delude us. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 hi ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.460 ************************