INFO-VAX Sat, 25 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 466 Contents: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Re: ACLS and WebServers... Re: ACLS and WebServers... Re: ACLS and WebServers... Re: ACLS and WebServers... Re: ACLS and WebServers... RE: ACLS and WebServers... RE: ACLS and WebServers... RE: ACLS and WebServers... Re: ACLS and WebServers... COBOL Perform? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? RE: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? RE: COBOL Transactions? RE: COBOL Transactions? RE: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: is this a race condition? Itanium Port Question RE: Itanium Port Question Itanium porting question Re: Itanium porting question Re: Itanium porting question Re: Itanium porting question RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) Re: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: PWS500 au console transitions Re: Question about FTP and filenames Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: [OpenVMS] Context lexical functions [OT] 25-AUG-1944 Paris was set free ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Aug 2007 07:12:28 GMT From: "dave weatherall" Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: <5ja32sF3t1hpqU1@mid.individual.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > Well, here is a totally honest question. :) > > Just wrote my first serious CGI-BIN program under VMS, and found that > I had to do > "SET SECURITY/ACL=(IDENT=APACHE$WWW,ACCESS=READ)" or variants thereof > so that the > program could access various data files. I had to grant read access > on each directory > starting at the root of the device that the web server CGI program > needs access to. > > The question is, is there a central facility to manage these settings > for all the > files and users in the system, similar perhaps to RACF on a z/OS > mainframe? For example, > can I easily produce a list of all the files/directories that the web > server has access > permissions to? > > If not, are there good ways and methods to keep track of which files > need which permissions? > From a System Admin point of view I mean. > > Thanks > -Paul I might have misunderstood your question but we do this with a command file and 'shadow' ACLs. i.e we keep files (sometimes empty, sometimes containing explantory text) that have the ACL setup for the directory/tree they control. Judicious use of : SET FILE /ACL /LIKE=shodow_file.ACL disk:[dir...] etc provides a repeatable, traceable method of maintaining/modifying access rights. Of course, SET FILE is deprecated and SET SECURITY should be used for new procedures. -- Cheers - Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:06:11 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > For example, can I easily produce a list of all > the files/directories that the web server has > access permissions to? There is a tool falled DFU ("Directory and File Utility", if I'm not wrong) that comlements the functionality of DIR. It's a free tool developed by the VMS developers. I seem to remember that DFU can list files selected on actual ACL settings. And no, fortunaly there is not anything like RACF on VMS... :-) :-) Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 07:24:02 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: <46D01152.6070603@comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > Well, here is a totally honest question. :) > > Just wrote my first serious CGI-BIN program under VMS, and found that I had > to do > "SET SECURITY/ACL=(IDENT=APACHE$WWW,ACCESS=READ)" or variants thereof so > that the > program could access various data files. I had to grant read access on each > directory > starting at the root of the device that the web server CGI program needs > access to. > > The question is, is there a central facility to manage these settings for > all the > files and users in the system, similar perhaps to RACF on a z/OS mainframe? > For example, > can I easily produce a list of all the files/directories that the web server > has access > permissions to? > > If not, are there good ways and methods to keep track of which files need > which permissions? > From a System Admin point of view I mean. > VMSINSTAL sets the initial protection for files that belong to the O/S. These permissions SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED. If you do, you will regret it later. IF THERE IS A LATER! The permissions for other files are normally set by the owner or by the system default; see HELP SET PROTECTION /DEFAULT. System wide defaults are set by a SYSGEN parameter, I no longer remember which one and I'm too lazy to look it up! How restrictive your default permissions are is entirely up to you. I'd suggest putting most, or all, of the files you want the public to be able to see in a directory tree created for the purpose. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2007 07:15:31 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: In article <009701c7e6d1$3c4bc360$b4e34a20$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > The question is, is there a central facility to manage these settings for > all the > files and users in the system, similar perhaps to RACF on a z/OS mainframe? The central facility to manage setting is the SET SECURITY command in the hands of a privileged user. But VMS is more oriented toward use of the SET SECURITY command by unprivileged people, like the Webmaster, who have control over only certain files. VMS is significantly different from RACF (or ACF2 or Top Secret) in that there is no way on VMS to set the future protection of a file that does not exist. The metadata regarding protection is part of the file header. This means one can remove a disk from one VMS system and plug it into another VMS system and all the protections will travel with it. Of course coordinated SYSUAF (lists of users) are required for this to produce any desired effect I can envision. > If not, are there good ways and methods to keep track of which files need > which permissions? That would be in the documentation of the individual product that created each file. > From a System Admin point of view I mean. VMS runs best when this is beyond the interest level of the system manager and up to the specialist in the particular product. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 06:19:04 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 21:34:33 -0700, Paul Raulerson = = wrote: > Just wrote my first serious CGI-BIN program under VMS, and found that = I = > had > to do > "SET SECURITY/ACL=3D(IDENT=3DAPACHE$WWW,ACCESS=3DREAD)" or variants th= ereof so > that the > program could access various data files. I had to grant read access on= = > each > directory > starting at the root of the device that the web server CGI program nee= ds > access to. As somewhat an aside, using WASD I can view the entire cluster file syst= em = with authenticated login, from a PC very similar to the Explore command on = Windows, and although I haven't tried, it should be possible through the judicious us= e = of priveleges to tailor the view for individual users. -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:31:03 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > "SET SECURITY/ACL=(IDENT=APACHE$WWW,ACCESS=READ)" or variants thereof so > that the > program could access various data files. Remember to also set the directory file and add the same ACL "OPTIONS=DEFAULT" to the directory file as well. This causes any newsly created files in that directory to inherit that ACL. > The question is, is there a central facility to manage these settings for > all the files and users in the system, similar perhaps to RACF on a z/OS mainframe? The short answer is NO. There have been some consultants/outfits in VMS's heydays who had software to audit your system and find out every file that every user had access to. On a mainframe, the file system is much flatter than on VMS. Also remember that on MVS, security is an after tought, so the package you choose/install to provide security has to provide the management tools to manage security. With VMS, security is an integral part of the OS, and each user can manage their files without having to go to a "security" department and ask them to make certain files accessible to other users. Also, on VMS, the file security information is stored in the file header. It isn't stored in a separate database that is easy to scan. So you'd have to scan all files on the system to find out which ones any particular user has read and/or write access to. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:41:12 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: <001c01c7e72e$5db4f280$191ed780$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Vorlaender [mailto:mv@pdv-systeme.de] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 12:38 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... > > The decision whether a process has access to a file is a complicated > one, see e.g. the OpenVMS Guide to System Security, > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/aa-q2hlg-te/00/00/39-con.html > It even requires a flowchart to explain it ;-) > Oh my-- more weekend reading! :) Thanks Martin. -Paul P.S. This sounds like an opportunity for a neat little utility for someone who is capable of writing it. (Not me!) Sell a few copies then sell it to HP or CA. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:52:07 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: <002501c7e72f$e4060f30$ac122d90$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 8:19 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... > > On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 21:34:33 -0700, Paul Raulerson > > wrote: > > As somewhat an aside, using WASD I can view the entire cluster file > system > with > authenticated login, from a PC very similar to the Explore command on > Windows, and > although I haven't tried, it should be possible through the judicious > use > of priveleges > to tailor the view for individual users. > That's something definitely in the cards. What is WASD exactly? An application server that runs on top of the SecureWebServer stuff? (i.e. Apache). I was planning on making use of the suExec processing for stuff that is user specific, but if there is a better way, I'm all for it! -Paul > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2007 11:16:45 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: RE: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: In article <002501c7e72f$e4060f30$ac122d90$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > That's something definitely in the cards. What is WASD exactly? WASD is a web server that runs on VMS. http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 19:07:50 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: ACLS and WebServers... Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > Martin Vorlaender wrote: >> The decision whether a process has access to a file is a complicated >> one, see e.g. the OpenVMS Guide to System Security, >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/aa-q2hlg-te/00/00/39-con.html >> It even requires a flowchart to explain it ;-) > > Oh my-- more weekend reading! :) Thanks Martin. -Paul > > P.S. This sounds like an opportunity for a neat little utility for > someone who is capable of writing it. (Not me!) Sell a few copies > then sell it to HP or CA. ;) In fact, when porting some *ix software, I noticed that the C RTL routine access() only looks at the protection mask, and doesn't honor ACLs. So I had to expand it (not going all the way through the flowchart though). cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:47:24 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: COBOL Perform? Message-ID: <000601c7e73f$fed498d0$fc7dca70$@com> Can someone explain this little bit of COBOL behavior (Alpha VMS 8.3) please? I expected the EXIT PROGRAM to terminate the program at the end of the mainline, but it seems to fall through and go execute the paragraphs below it. EXIT PROGRAM does appear to be working this way elsewhere in code. Huh. maybe I am just too tired right now and am missing something utterly simple. I'm used to using GOBACK. I did stay up wayyyy to late last night. ;) The below is a condensed sample program to illustrate what I mean, and the output is reproduced below it. Thanks -Paul *************************************************************** * .MC80-A * SAMPLE CODE FOR PERFORM ISSUE *************************************************************** IDENTIFICATION DIVISION. PROGRAM-ID. MC80 INITIAL. DATA DIVISION. WORKING-STORAGE SECTION. 01 WS-EOF-FLAG PIC X(1) VALUE 'N'. PROCEDURE DIVISION. START-PROGRAM. DISPLAY '**** FIRST LINE OF MAINLINE CODE ****' MOVE 'N' TO WS-EOF-FLAG PERFORM WRITE-TEXT1 PERFORM UNTIL WS-EOF-FLAG = 'Y' DISPLAY ' TEXT FROM PERFORM UNTIL' MOVE 'Y' TO WS-EOF-FLAG END-PERFORM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT2 DISPLAY '**** LAST LINE OF MAINLINE CODE ****' EXIT PROGRAM . WRITE-TEXT1. DISPLAY ' TEXT FROM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT1' . WRITE-TEXT2. DISPLAY ' TEXT FROM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT2' . ===== output from above program is ===== $ link mc80 $ r mc80 **** FIRST LINE OF MAINLINE CODE **** TEXT FROM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT1 TEXT FROM PERFORM UNTIL TEXT FROM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT2 **** LAST LINE OF MAINLINE CODE **** TEXT FROM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT1 TEXT FROM PERFORM WRITE-TEXT2 $ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:03:16 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <1188025224_7645@sp12lax.superfeed.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: >> On Aug 24, 11:15 am, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: >> >>>> What you *seem* to be objecting to is when I say, "Here is what I >>>> need to do, here is how I would normally do it, what is the facility >>>> under VMS that does this?" >> Without rereading everything you've ever posted I'd have to say that >> I don't recall ever seeing you pose a question in that form. >> > > Well, that could well be. Electronic communications often lack the richness > of face to face or more formal communications. That does not, however, > imply that there was any malicious, or other intent. > > Or in other words, you are reading far more into a simple statement than > what is really there. > >> What you have done -- and what disturbs me -- is make statements (or >> implications) about OpenVMS' inability to perform a variety of tasks >> when you have no knowledge of whether or not it can do those things. >> >> For example, here are some things you have said ... >> >>>>> The only issue with the Alpha is that the 4mm tape drive on it >>>>> does not seem to be recognized. ... and off to the UNIX machine >>>>> which *does* know how to talk to tape. > > I'll use this one as an example. Perhaps if I had said "talk to *a* tape" > it would have disturbed you less. But in actual, plain, unassailable fact, > the ALPHA *machine* does NOT know how to talk to a tape right now. > The UNIX *machine* does. There is not implication at all regarding > a comparison to Operating Systems there. > > >>>>> When I create an indexed file in COBOL, is it using Rdb? If so, >>>>> it quacks a lot like a filesystem to me. >>>>> if they are VSAM (which is the the same as RDB on VMS) > > So ignorance is a crime? Several people pointed out to the that RDB > is a database, and RMS is a file system. I believe I expressed > embarrassment at that. On the other hand, how many people here > might mix up a 3390 and 3990 in the mainframe world? Probably a > few. > >>>> Why in heavens name would I, or *anyone* for that matter, go chasing >>>> around a hunk of hardware that is either not supported or simply >>>> broken when the needed capabilty is available on another resource >>>> which is working? >> Because it's your development system and most people I know would like >> their development systems to be fully functional. How will you >> develop >> a backup procedure for your client's on Alpha if you can't get it to >> work at home? How will you back up your ported source code at the >> HP porting event if you haven't practiced it under OpenVMS at home? >> > > I won't be supporting Alphas - only Itanium. There might be some compelling > reasons to support Alpha's I don't know about. There are probably reasons > to support Vax's. But, to the best of my knowledge, the compelling business > case is to support Itanium. > >> (And, even though you profess to port to Integrity you may come across >> a potential sale of your software at a client that already has Alpha >> and doesn't want to buy new systems. Be prepared.) >> >>>> Better yet, why in heavens name would you assume I would NOT backup >>>> valuable (at least to me) work on which I have spent much time >>>> and effort? >> Huh? Where did I make that assumption? >> > > When you assumed I was complaining that VMS would not talk to tape of > course. > What else could you possibly have meant? > > I do believe again you are reading much more into simple questions, > sometimes driven by excitement, than is reasonable to assume. I am > really developing a passion for VMS, but - I don't have time to explore > all the things I would like to do now. I really really don't have much > time at all to fight with hardware I intend to replace. In the meantime, > I intend to use that same resource to best effect. > > By the way, when I bought it, it was just to play with. I had no idea that > VMS was a viable platform to port our software to, or use for some of the > things I have learned it is useful for. > > As for my experience level - well- I'll send you a set of mainframe disks if > you wish. You are welcome to try and get to a comparable level of > inexperience > in a few months. The situations are very close. > > If you feel that I am being abrasive in some way, then I feel bad for you > and > will try to be more polite to you in the future. If on the other hand, you > think I have time to waste and should not be able to make decisions about > hardware and such, then I am truly sorry but I disagree. Especially about > something as simple as a misbehaving tape drive. (Again note, I am talking > about hardware - a tape drive - has nothing to do with VMS.) > > By the way, just would your experience tell is the case when a tape device > shows > up in the bios SHOW DEV but not in the VMS SHOW DEV? > > -Paul > > Please post the output of the SRM (not BIOS) command >>> show config First thing that comes to mind is that your tape drive is a wide SCSI device and it is connected to a narrow SCSI bus. Most if not all of the Alphaserver internal (not PCI card based) SCSI interfaces are narrow. Jeff ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2007 06:50:05 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > But how often do people actually log in? Twice (morning and after > lunch) a day, if you've beaten your users into submission. Once per subprocess creation (to get the quotas). ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2007 07:02:36 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 08/24/07 19:12, Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> In article <8nKzi.20836$Pv4.10871@newsfe19.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 08/24/07 18:41, Dr. Dweeb wrote: >>>> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>>>> In article , Ron Johnson >>>>> writes: >>>>>> On 08/24/07 16:11, John Santos wrote: >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>> Not to mention never logging in.... SYSUAF.DAT is an RMS indexed >>>>>>> file. :-) >>>>>> I was delighted the first time I opened SYSUAF in EDT, and learned >>>>>> the interesting lesson (*not* on SYSUAF!) that saving an indexed >>>>>> file converts it into a flat file... >>>>> I know of at least six sites where privileged users did that to >>>>> SYSALF.DAT and then exited, meaning even their existing entries >>>>> no longer worked. >>>>> >>>> File versioning to the rescue ? >>> Great minds think alike. >> >> But not the great minds that failed to realize what they had broken >> until a security assessment several years later. > > But how do you log in or run MCR AUTHORIZE on a flat-file SYSUAF? You don't. The case I was talking about was SYSALF.DAT, where you run for years thinking that autologin is a VMS feature that "doesn't work". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:18:33 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does NOT > speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it > implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL, VSAM > under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each different > COBOL vendor. The COBOL standard also defines what kind of indexed keys are allowable. This could be a real swine with early versions of VAX-COBOL when wanting to access files populated by non-COBOL languages. From Page 6-7 of the COBOL User Guide: "When you open a file, you must specify the same number and type of keys that were specified when the file was created. (This situation is subject to modification by the check duplicate keys and relax key checking options, as well as a duplicate key specification on an FD.) If the number or type of keys does not match, the system will issue a run-time diagnostic when you try to open the file." The ability to relax key checking didn't exist at one time. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:22:31 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > > > > No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does > > NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it > > implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL, > > VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each > > different COBOL vendor. > > Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like > UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable > Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. In my quick dip into the COBOL User Guide for my previous post, I noticed that it is scattered with Tru64 references. Does that imply that they ported RMS to Tru64? -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 05:56:20 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:42:10 -0700, Main, Kerry wrote: > Just remember us Canucks work for beer .. and we are pretty picky. > It has to be cold and have alcohol in it. Cold? PICKY, PICKY -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:40:20 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > >> Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > > > >That's not a failure code in OpenVMS, but it is a bad informational. > >It should possibly translate to '%SYSTEM-I-NEWBIE, Beginner in action" > > > >'get back' FROM WHAT? In which field? > >R>
'get back' FROM WHAT? In which field?
> > LOL! Well, perhaps. > > The error code was coming back in the status field, which I basically swiped > from the sample code. I just translated it to it's hex value for ease of > communications. > > The actual call looks more like this (again, swiped from the sample, with EFN > = 7). > > CALL "SYS$START_TRANSW" USING > BY VALUE EFN > BY VALUE 0 > BY REFERENCE IOSB > BY VALUE 0 > BY VALUE 0 > BY REFERENCE TID > GIVING RETURN-STATUS > > IF RETURN-STATUS IS FAILURE > ... --> display what came back in the S9(9) COMP field. I can't tell you how many times I've run into problems with this in the past... Declare RETURN-STATUS as 9(9) COMP - i.e. unsigned. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:56:15 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > In article , "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > >> > >> No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= > >> NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= > >> implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= > >> VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= > >> different COBOL vendor. > > > >Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like > >UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable > >Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. > > Boy, you can say *that* again! It is also one of the reasons that > COBOL is so darn expensive on UNIX or non-VMS/non-Mainframe platforms. At the risk of going way off topic, I recently discovered that SQLite comes with OS X nowadays. One thing I have spotted about it is that the use of fork is specifically discouraged, so maybe some hope of porting to VMS not running into that little obstacle :-) http://www.sqlite.org/ "About SQLite SQLite is a small C library that implements a self-contained, embeddable, zero-configuration SQL database engine. Features include: * Transactions are atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable (ACID) even after system crashes and power failures. * Zero-configuration - no setup or administration needed. * Implements most of SQL92. (Features not supported) * A complete database is stored in a single disk file. * Database files can be freely shared between machines with different byte orders. * Supports terabyte-sized databases and gigabyte-sized strings and blobs. (See limits.html.) * Small code footprint: less than 250KiB fully configured or less than 150KiB with optional features omitted. * Faster than popular client/server database engines for most common operations. * Simple, easy to use API. * TCL bindings included. Bindings for many other languages available separately. * Well-commented source code with over 98% test coverage. * Available as a single ANSI-C source-code file that you can easily drop into another project. * Self-contained: no external dependencies. * Sources are in the public domain. Use for any purpose." -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:06:14 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: August 24, 2007 11:21 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > On 08/24/07 20:29, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > [snip] > > > > RMS is "needed" to access an Indexed Sequential file! In Unix you > have > > to do a sequential search of /etc/passwd and/or /etc/shadow to find > the > > user name. It's no problem if you have ten or fifteen users. If you > > have 1500 users it could get a little slow. > > > > > > User authorization is one of those applications that does not really > > lend itself to sequential access! > > But how often do people actually log in? Twice (morning and after > lunch) a day, if you've beaten your users into submission. > > And during that time when there's heavy login activity, /etc/passwd > & /etc/shadow should be buffered by the first few accesses. > Depends on application and environment. ISP's often have greater than 100K = users spread across a number of systems all of which not only require access to their w= eb based info but also require FTP authentication whenever they upload files to their web= site. A great deal of design work will typically go into such an environment as t= he default sequential searches were a non-starter. Also, keep in mind that you have a great deal of User updating and pwd re-s= etting in large user environments, so you also need a strategy that allows concurrent acces= s to the user authorization file(s). Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:55:09 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article <009401c7e6cb$56d86400$04892c00$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > Please explain > to me why I should believe I have misconfigured a SCSI bus that everything > else, disk, CD, etc, *works* on, the device is seen by the BIOS, I'd say that you are new to SCSI :-) Cable lengths matter. Believe or not, I've seen the case where I plugged in an extra disk drive for a one-off exercise, then left it switched off. Over the next few months my system disk started logging an increasing number of errors, eventually not booting at all. The simple solution was to unplug the extra cable and disk which had been there for several months. > if I pull the drive, like I just did, and put it on another machine, it > works fine. > > I'd say that VMS does not support that device. Not necessarily. Think about the *combination* of SCSI devices on each system. Every removable DAT drive I have come across has had either jumpers or a dial on the back to set the SCSI address. If that is set incorrectly for the VMS system, it will never work. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 17:07:07 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/24/07 16:11, John Santos wrote: > [snip] > > > > Not to mention never logging in.... SYSUAF.DAT is an RMS indexed file. :-) > > I was delighted the first time I opened SYSUAF in EDT, and learned > the interesting lesson (*not* on SYSUAF!) that saving an indexed > file converts it into a flat file... You only make that mistake once though. Once it is programmed into your fingers that .LIS is the default file type for the input file, you do thinks like this: UAF> list %UAF-I-LSTMSG1, writing listing file %UAF-I-LSTMSG2, listing file SYSUAF.LIS complete $ print sysuaf Oops. If you have SYSUAF defined as a logical name, you print the authorization file, and your printer chokes on the binary data therein. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 17:13:17 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/24/07 20:04, Paul Raulerson wrote: > [snip] > > > > LOL! Thank you, I'll take that as a complement. At least I put a > > "$" in there. ;) The unmounted DKA0: drive is a duplicate of it, > > but labeled VMS83$AIPL.... > > > > What would you suggest is a more appropriate VMS name? I can > > change... :) > > VMS83$IPL is a perfectly adequate name. No need to change! > > We give our system packs and crazy names like AXPVMSSYS, ALPHASYS > and nodenameSYS. When working with multiple versions, I have used VAXVMS073, ALPVMS082 etc. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:36:29 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <001801c7e72d$b4fcf610$1ef6e230$@com> (*sigh*) > > Why do you insist on reading anything into this other than the tape > > device is not working? What in the world are you hearing? > > You've developed an "I don't know how to do it, so VMS must not be > able to do it" reputation. > > > Whatever it is, it is NOT what I am saying. > > In the post that began this threadlet, you wrote: > UNIX machine which *does* know how to talk to tape. > > Which, given your poor reputation, leads us to read that you think > that VMS does *not* know how to talk to tape. > (*Sigh*)I was talking about the machines - not the OS. If that was not clear to you, I suggest it is because you are reading something into what I wrote that just is not there Ron. > > Really? Well, I guess I will just go on being dense then. Please > explain > > to me why I should believe I have misconfigured a SCSI bus that > everything > > else, disk, CD, etc, *works* on, the device is seen by the BIOS, and > oh > > yeah, > > if I pull the drive, like I just did, and put it on another machine, > it > > works > > fine. > > SCSI is finicky and easy to misconfigure. > Try configuring SCSI devices on a Wang VS sometime. Have one still running that talks to an EMC Symmetrix over SCSI. Never have gotten the beastie to talk to an ESS800 over a SCSI channel, and really just gave up on that one. Wasn't worth the time to scope it out, since it works with the EMC. Just for the record, the SCSI bus on the Alpha machine is *not* misconfigured, and a DEC labeled tape drive when installed at the same LUN in the same slot with the same cable *does* show up and work under VMS. The same DEC labeled tape drive, by the way, that works on the UNIX machine. I think you are saying you hear me "attacking" VMS when I don't know how to do something. I suppose I would be annoyed if that is what I heard too. What I am saying is that when I run into something like this situation, I will make a judgment whether it is something I need to chase or not. In the case in point: I had a need to back up data. Further, the data to be backed up has value to me, and I need to have confidence in the backup. For whatever reason, the tape drive was not working on one machine Since it appeared to be, and actually is, a device support issue, it was not worth the time to try and make an unsupported device work. Also, I don't want to trust backup operations on an "unsupported" device. Answer: Use a machine that is already working and completely supports the available devices I have around. Action Item: Figure out workable SMB backup plans on Itanium machines > > are pretty about what devices they will accept. I see no reason to > doubt or > > Petty? > Pretty picky. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:47:05 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <002001c7e72f$2ff65360$8fe2fa20$@com> [snip] > > IF RETURN-STATUS IS FAILURE > > ... --> display what came back in the S9(9) COMP field. > > I can't tell you how many times I've run into problems with this in the > past... > > Declare RETURN-STATUS as 9(9) COMP - i.e. unsigned. > > -- > Paul Sture I did after that embarrassing little escapade. I just wasn't going to admit it... :) -Thanks -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:55:59 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <002a01c7e730$6e724ee0$4b56eca0$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:55 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > In article <009401c7e6cb$56d86400$04892c00$@com>, > "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > > Please explain > > to me why I should believe I have misconfigured a SCSI bus that > everything > > else, disk, CD, etc, *works* on, the device is seen by the BIOS, > > I'd say that you are new to SCSI :-) > > Cable lengths matter. Believe or not, I've seen the case where I > plugged > in an extra disk drive for a one-off exercise, then left it switched > off. Over the next few months my system disk started logging an > increasing number of errors, eventually not booting at all. The simple > solution was to unplug the extra cable and disk which had been there > for > several months. > > > if I pull the drive, like I just did, and put it on another machine, > it > > works fine. > > > > I'd say that VMS does not support that device. > > Not necessarily. Think about the *combination* of SCSI devices on each > system. Every removable DAT drive I have come across has had either > jumpers or a dial on the back to set the SCSI address. If that is set > incorrectly for the VMS system, it will never work. > Well, yep. That could be the case. I've heard of issues like the cable problem you described above, but haven't personally ran into one. In my day job and as much as possible here, I moved to LVD, which eliminates an awful lot of those problems. ;) -Paul > -- > Paul Sture > > Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:06:10 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/25/07 07:02, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> On 08/24/07 19:12, Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>> In article <8nKzi.20836$Pv4.10871@newsfe19.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >>>> On 08/24/07 18:41, Dr. Dweeb wrote: >>>>> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>>>>> In article , Ron Johnson >>>>>> writes: >>>>>>> On 08/24/07 16:11, John Santos wrote: >>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>>> Not to mention never logging in.... SYSUAF.DAT is an RMS indexed >>>>>>>> file. :-) >>>>>>> I was delighted the first time I opened SYSUAF in EDT, and learned >>>>>>> the interesting lesson (*not* on SYSUAF!) that saving an indexed >>>>>>> file converts it into a flat file... >>>>>> I know of at least six sites where privileged users did that to >>>>>> SYSALF.DAT and then exited, meaning even their existing entries >>>>>> no longer worked. >>>>>> >>>>> File versioning to the rescue ? >>>> Great minds think alike. >>> But not the great minds that failed to realize what they had broken >>> until a security assessment several years later. >> But how do you log in or run MCR AUTHORIZE on a flat-file SYSUAF? > > You don't. The case I was talking about was SYSALF.DAT, where you run > for years thinking that autologin is a VMS feature that "doesn't work". Ah. Autologin? Isn't that... insecure? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:11:13 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/25/07 09:06, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- From: Ron Johnson >> [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] Sent: August 24, 2007 11:21 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? >> >> On 08/24/07 20:29, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [snip] >>> RMS is "needed" to access an Indexed Sequential file! In >>> Unix you >> have >>> to do a sequential search of /etc/passwd and/or /etc/shadow >>> to find >> the >>> user name. It's no problem if you have ten or fifteen users. >>> If you have 1500 users it could get a little slow. >>> >>> >>> User authorization is one of those applications that does not >>> really lend itself to sequential access! >> But how often do people actually log in? Twice (morning and >> after lunch) a day, if you've beaten your users into >> submission. >> >> And during that time when there's heavy login activity, >> /etc/passwd & /etc/shadow should be buffered by the first few >> accesses. >> > > Depends on application and environment. ISP's often have greater > than 100K users spread across a number of systems all of which > not only require access to their web based info but also require > FTP authentication whenever they upload files to their web site. > > A great deal of design work will typically go into such an > environment as the default sequential searches were a > non-starter. > > Also, keep in mind that you have a great deal of User updating > and pwd re-setting in large user environments, so you also need a > strategy that allows concurrent access to the user authorization > file(s). I don't know why it didn't occur to me last night (probably because most of my brain was thinking about work), but PAM has an LDAP module, and LDAP can use an index file store. So.... any ISP that keeps 100K users in a flat file shouldn't be in business. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2007 11:23:49 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <48KSFtfv0R8n@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 08/25/07 07:02, Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> In article , Ron Johnson writes: >>> But how do you log in or run MCR AUTHORIZE on a flat-file SYSUAF? >> >> You don't. The case I was talking about was SYSALF.DAT, where you run >> for years thinking that autologin is a VMS feature that "doesn't work". > > Ah. > > Autologin? Isn't that... insecure? There is no notion of security absent an application context. For a badge reader that is only smart enough to send a carriage return down a dedicated line, autologin may be appropriate. For a lobby terminal intended to let an outsider send a message to an employee, autologin into a username that is locked into that "send a message" screen may be appropriate. For a system manager who tries EDT on an indexed file, having autologin become mystically disabled may be the safest behaviour. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:51:43 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/25/07 07:56, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > >> In article , "Paul Raulerson" >> writes: >>>> No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= >>>> NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= >>>> implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= >>>> VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= >>>> different COBOL vendor. >>> Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like >>> UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable >>> Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. >> Boy, you can say *that* again! It is also one of the reasons that >> COBOL is so darn expensive on UNIX or non-VMS/non-Mainframe platforms. > > At the risk of going way off topic, I recently discovered that SQLite > comes with OS X nowadays. One thing I have spotted about it is that the > use of fork is specifically discouraged, so maybe some hope of porting > to VMS not running into that little obstacle :-) > > http://www.sqlite.org/ > > "About SQLite > > SQLite is a small C library that implements a self-contained, > embeddable, zero-configuration SQL database engine. Features include: The problem is that SQLite does not enforce datatype definitions. (The authors say this is a design decision and feature.) [snip] -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:10:09 -0700 From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <1188025809.602167.226670@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On 25 Aug, 02:05, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > At least some DECservers can boot using either MOP or BOOTP (TCP/IP > protocol). BOOTP uses UDP/IP not TCP/IP. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 06:39:18 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <46D006D6.8080508@comcast.net> John Santos wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >>> "Uusimäki" wrote in message >>> news:46cf42fd$0$27847$9b536df3@news.fv.fi... >>> >>>> JF Mezei wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bob Koehler wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think that's a bit stronger statement than reality. The only >>>>>> thing DECnet Phase IV and MOP have in common is using NCP and the >>>>> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> I successfully ran DVSCONFIG.COM to configure the DECserver firmware >>> download, but the DECserver fail to download it. I am having other >>> console issues with the DECserver so I don't know if it works, but it >>> may be that there is something else that I have to start on the VMS >>> side, what do I need to check is running? This is VMS 7.3. And this >>> is the output of SH SYS: >>> >>> Pid Process Name State Pri I/O CPU Page >>> flts Pages >>> 00000081 SWAPPER HIB 16 0 0 00:00:00.54 0 0 >>> 00000084 LANACP HIB 13 61 0 00:00:00.44 >>> 368 796 >>> 00000086 IPCACP HIB 10 7 0 00:00:00.07 >>> 99 167 >>> 00000087 ERRFMT HIB 8 612 0 00:00:02.58 >>> 145 216 >>> 00000089 OPCOM HIB 8 158 0 00:00:00.54 >>> 314 153 >>> 0000008A AUDIT_SERVER HIB 10 56 0 00:00:00.55 >>> 525 679 >>> 0000008B JOB_CONTROL HIB 10 33 0 00:00:00.17 >>> 153 294 >>> 0000008C SECURITY_SERVER HIB 10 22 0 00:00:26.22 >>> 757 1014 >>> 0000008D NETACP HIB 9 240 0 00:00:01.33 >>> 205 323 >>> 0000008E EVL HIB 6 139 0 00:00:00.57 >>> 365 582 N >>> 0000008F REMACP HIB 8 18 0 00:00:00.07 >>> 111 69 >>> 00000090 TCPIP$INETACP HIB 8 113 0 00:00:00.98 >>> 713 810 >>> 00000095 SYSTEM LEF 9 4194 0 00:00:45.45 >>> 30170 288 >>> 00000096 _TNA5: CUR 4 541 0 00:00:06.78 >>> 4223 340 >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Rob >>> >> >> At least some DECservers can boot using either MOP or BOOTP (TCP/IP >> protocol). It attempts to boot using whatever was successful the last >> time. If you have, as I once did, something that will answer a BOOTP >> request, and a MOP boot fails, you can get a situation where the >> DECserver switches over to BOOTP. The way out is to connect it to a >> VMS system with a crossover cable making sure that VMS cannot respond >> to a BOOTP request. When BOOTP fails it will try MOP which succeeds >> and resets things. > > > There is a bit of magic that will cause a DECServer to reset to its > factory default configuration. The exact sequence varies with model, > but for some, I think you hold down the reset button while it's > powering up. > That's right! The problem with this approach is that it wipes your configuration. If you don't want to have to issue 8, or 16, DEFINE/SET PORT commands, an alternative to resetting is preferable! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 07:29:40 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <46D012A4.3060502@comcast.net> AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk wrote: > On 25 Aug, 02:05, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > >>At least some DECservers can boot using either MOP or BOOTP (TCP/IP >>protocol). > > > BOOTP uses UDP/IP not TCP/IP. > > Alex > > Sorry about that. I just naturally use "TCP/IP" to refer to the whole protocol suite. And if both ends speak BOOTP, I couldn't care less about the details. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:18:16 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Message-ID: In article , John Santos wrote: > Steven M. Schweda wrote: > > From: John Santos > > > >>The problem, AFAIK, is that if a user gets out of sync with the prompts on > >>a > >>login failure, and types his password in to Username:, it will show up in > >>the Username: field (in plain text) in this file, which, if world-readable, > >>any enterprising nogoodnik could scrape up. > > > > > > Could happen. Hasn't. > > > > > >>I think ana/audit used to put the attempted passwords in the log, which > >>are sometimes very interesting, but I think it no longer does this. > > > > > > You mean like this?: > > > > Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on ALP, system id: > > 1119 > > Auditable event: Remote interactive login failure > > Event time: 22-AUG-2007 16:57:45.90 > > PID: 20221BB1 > > Process name: _RTA4: > > Username: SMS > > Terminal name: RTA4:, _RTA4:, ALP::SMS > > Remote node fullname: LOCAL:.ALP > > Remote username: SMS > > Status: %LOGIN-F-INVPWD, invalid password > > > > > > Well, no, not like that, because the text the user typed doesn't > appear here. What I'm claiming is that in an earlier version of > VMS (which could very well still be in use out there), the response > to "Password:" *did* appear in the report. I'll confirm that claim. On at least one occasion I found it useful, as it showed where the problem was coming from (for example, a keyboard with the wrong language settings). > > > >>You can get valid usernames from successful logins. [...] > > > > > > _Successful_ log-ins don't appear in the report. > > > > Only because you've filtered them out or have set audit/disable=logins... > > > (The reason I'm being picky about this is because someone is sure to > Google this someday, possibly in the midst of a security incident, and > it would be good to have them proceed cautiously and avoid the fire-pits.) > Good thinking. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 05:14:11 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1188044051.913796.228860@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Aug 24, 11:29 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > [...snip...] > > The British Colonists (before they became "America") brought Africans to North > America against their will under deplorable conditions to live and work under > deplorable conditions, but that had nothing to do with the religious (or any > other) convictions of the Africans. A bit of stupidity on the part of our > forefathers was that they considered the Africans to be human-like, but not > entirely human. > I'd also like to point out that many people in America at that time used the bible to justify slavery. Some people who opposed the bible thumpers were branded as "free thinkers" etc. Today, anyone who would use the bible to justify slavery would be considered backwards. p.s. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the bible or religion; I'm only suggesting that politically motivated religious groups need to calm down a little because you are not as correct as you believe. > > During the first part of the 20th Century, Jews in Europe were persecuted > because they were Jewish. Remember: Jews were considered a race more than a > religious denomination. It could just as easily have been purple people > persecuting the green because they were green and not purple. The Nazis > targetted racial purity more than religious leanings (the "master race" thing). > Talk to anyone who was an adult during World War 2 and you'll find that many common folk were anti-Semitic even though they called themselves Christians. (The people telling you these facts will always tell you it was the other guy). Today, anyone who holds anti-Semitic biases is usually considered backwards. NSR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:03:32 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 08/25/07 07:14, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 24, 11:29 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> > [...snip...] >> The British Colonists (before they became "America") brought Africans to North >> America against their will under deplorable conditions to live and work under >> deplorable conditions, but that had nothing to do with the religious (or any >> other) convictions of the Africans. A bit of stupidity on the part of our >> forefathers was that they considered the Africans to be human-like, but not >> entirely human. >> > > I'd also like to point out that many people in America at that time > used the bible to justify slavery. Some people who opposed the bible > thumpers were branded as "free thinkers" etc. Today, anyone who would > use the bible to justify slavery would be considered backwards. But most Abolitionists were deeply committed Christians. This was "just" another case of using the Bible to justify whatever you want to do. Still, though, slavery has existed (yes, it still exists in parts of Africa and Arabia) (and still exists to a degree in the West with poorly paid and poorly treated "wage slaves") for at least 4000 years, and probably longer. I'd say that it's an extension of our hierarchical social nature. > p.s. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the bible or religion; I'm only > suggesting that politically motivated religious groups need to calm > down a little because you are not as correct as you believe. > >> During the first part of the 20th Century, Jews in Europe were persecuted >> because they were Jewish. Remember: Jews were considered a race more than a >> religious denomination. It could just as easily have been purple people >> persecuting the green because they were green and not purple. The Nazis >> targetted racial purity more than religious leanings (the "master race" thing). >> > > Talk to anyone who was an adult during World War 2 and you'll find > that many common folk were anti-Semitic even though they called > themselves Christians. (The people telling you these facts will always "The Jews killed Jesus." > tell you it was the other guy). Today, anyone who holds anti-Semitic > biases is usually considered backwards. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 2007 06:52:00 GMT From: "dave weatherall" Subject: Re: is this a race condition? Message-ID: <5ja1sfF3t03a2U1@mid.individual.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <1187830870.915352.211590@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > "dpm_google@myths.com" writes: > > 23 years ago, fresh out of university, my first job was maintaining > > FORTRAN on a VAX. > > Last month I started a new job, and I am . . . maintaining FORTRAN > > on a VAX. (sigh) > > The operating-system part is nice, the language is not. Check this > > out: > > > > I see nothing inherintly wrong with the two I/Os as written, > but the logic seems faulty. If the IO$_READVBLK fails to submit > or fails to complete (STATUS is bad or IOSB(1) is bad) then the > outer loop will never terminate. Both of these should be terminal > conditions. > > I'd add an ELSE to both of those tests and call LIB$SIGNAL just > as the program does if the IO$_WRITEVBLK fails. Nor was there a check on the IOSB length word to ensure the expected/sufficient data was read. -- Cheers - Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:27:30 -0700 From: Randy Park Subject: Itanium Port Question Message-ID: I've been called in to help with a port to Itanium on some software that I was the prime developer for many many years. I haven't touched a VMS system in 4 years, plus I only worked part time on VMS for the previous 6 years. So here goes. The application is a commerical tool sold into the VMS marketplace. It supports many databases (Rdb, Oracle, etc.) plus RMS. All at the same time. But not all customers have all databases, let alone even one database. In order to make one set of images work for all customers we would go through the following generalized build procedure: 1. Compile all source code 2. Link executable images with all databases up and running. 3. Shut down database A. 4. Link again, and note all unresolved symbols. 5. Create shareable image(s) with stub routines containing entry points from step 4. 6. Redefine logicals relevant to database A to point to shareable image from stop 5 7. Run and test software with database A missing 8. Repeat steps 3 through 7 for every database system. Notes: 1. All databases used shareable images. 2. During startup time, DCL procedures would look to see which databases were present and define logicals to point to stub images for missing databases. This general build process would work for almost all databases on Vax and Alpha. There were some strange things regarding CDD that I don't recall right now. The developers involved in the port are telling me that this general process no longer works on Itanium. They're getting some kind of "ELF" error message. (I'm trying to get the exact error message from them.) Any idea if this general approach should still work, or do we need to look at a different method? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:04:51 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Itanium Port Question Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Park [mailto:rvfulltime@isp_removeme_.com] > Sent: August 24, 2007 1:28 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Itanium Port Question > > I've been called in to help with a port to Itanium on some software > that I was > the prime developer for many many years. I haven't touched a VMS > system in > 4 years, plus I only worked part time on VMS for the previous 6 years. > So here > goes. > > The application is a commerical tool sold into the VMS marketplace. It > supports > many databases (Rdb, Oracle, etc.) plus RMS. All at the same time. > But not all > customers have all databases, let alone even one database. In order to > make > one set of images work for all customers we would go through the > following > generalized build procedure: > > 1. Compile all source code > 2. Link executable images with all databases up and running. > 3. Shut down database A. > 4. Link again, and note all unresolved symbols. > 5. Create shareable image(s) with stub routines containing entry > points from step 4. > 6. Redefine logicals relevant to database A to point to shareable > image from stop 5 > 7. Run and test software with database A missing > 8. Repeat steps 3 through 7 for every database system. > > Notes: > 1. All databases used shareable images. > 2. During startup time, DCL procedures would look to see which > databases were > present and define logicals to point to stub images for missing > databases. > > This general build process would work for almost all databases on Vax > and Alpha. > There were some strange things regarding CDD that I don't recall right > now. > > The developers involved in the port are telling me that this general > process no longer > works on Itanium. They're getting some kind of "ELF" error message. > (I'm trying to > get the exact error message from them.) > > Any idea if this general approach should still work, or do we need to > look at a > different method? > > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Randy, Not sure if this is the problem or not, but it does discuss some of the I64 Library and ELF differences: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/6673/6673pro_005.html Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:30:34 -0700 From: Randy Park Subject: Itanium porting question Message-ID: <9ptuc316mbj5e4pqg8gfq3g51orphbelqi@4ax.com> This is a second attempt to post this question. My news server sometimes fails to post messages and I've waited 4 hours for it to appears. My apologies if it shows up twice. I've been called in to help with a port to Itanium on some software that I was the prime developer for many many years. I haven't touched a VMS system in 4 years, plus I only worked part time on VMS for the previous 6 years. So here goes. The application is a commerical tool sold into the VMS marketplace. It supports many databases (Rdb, Oracle, etc.) plus RMS. All at the same time. But not all customers have all databases, let alone even one database. In order to make one set of images work for all customers we would go through the following generalized build procedure: 1. Compile all source code 2. Link executable images with all databases up and running. 3. Shut down database A. 4. Link again, and note all unresolved symbols. 5. Create shareable image(s) with stub routines containing entry points from step 4. 6. Redefine logicals relevant to database A to point to shareable image from stop 5 7. Run and test software with database A missing 8. Repeat steps 3 through 7 for every database system. 9. At this point we now have an executable that can run with or without various databases being present. Notes: 1. All databases used shareable images. 2. During startup time, DCL procedures would look to see which databases were present and define logicals to point to stub images for missing databases. This general build process would work for almost all databases on Vax and Alpha. There were some strange things regarding CDD that I don't recall right now. The developers involved in the port are telling me that this general process no longer works on Itanium. They're getting some kind of "ELF" error message. (I'm trying to get the exact error message from them.) Any idea if this general approach should still work, or do we need to look at a different method? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:59:47 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Itanium porting question Message-ID: Randy Park wrote: > This is a second attempt to post this question. My news server sometimes > fails to post messages and I've waited 4 hours for it to appears. My apologies > if it shows up twice. > > I've been called in to help with a port to Itanium on some software that I was > the prime developer for many many years. I haven't touched a VMS system in > 4 years, plus I only worked part time on VMS for the previous 6 years. So here > goes. > > The application is a commerical tool sold into the VMS marketplace. It supports > many databases (Rdb, Oracle, etc.) plus RMS. All at the same time. But not all > customers have all databases, let alone even one database. In order to make > one set of images work for all customers we would go through the following > generalized build procedure: > > 1. Compile all source code > 2. Link executable images with all databases up and running. > 3. Shut down database A. > 4. Link again, and note all unresolved symbols. > 5. Create shareable image(s) with stub routines containing entry points from step 4. > 6. Redefine logicals relevant to database A to point to shareable image from stop 5 > 7. Run and test software with database A missing > 8. Repeat steps 3 through 7 for every database system. > 9. At this point we now have an executable that can run with or without various > databases being present. > > Notes: > 1. All databases used shareable images. > 2. During startup time, DCL procedures would look to see which databases were > present and define logicals to point to stub images for missing databases. > > This general build process would work for almost all databases on Vax and Alpha. > There were some strange things regarding CDD that I don't recall right now. > > The developers involved in the port are telling me that this general process no longer > works on Itanium. They're getting some kind of "ELF" error message. (I'm trying to > get the exact error message from them.) > > Any idea if this general approach should still work, or do we need to look at a > different method? Step 5 is problematic on a VMS system any version, if you are intending the same binary image to work with either your stub or with the real shared image from the database vendor. For this, not only must you have all the symbols that are in the shared image in the stub, you must also have them in the same place in the symbol vector. And with out cooperation from the database vendor, it is hard to get sufficient information to get it right. You will also run into problems where a vendor obsoletes a routine, and puts the replacement into a different location in the transfer vector. Otherwise, you have to link your application at the customer site, and if they ever add a database, you must relink your application to it. And if you are doing that, there is no need for your stubs to be shared images. My guess is that in the past someone worked out the minimum transfer vectors for VAX and ALPHA images in right order on VAX and ALPHA, and with Itanium as either the ELF format is too different, or one or more of the database vendors has reorganized how the symbol vector is set up. The hack you were using was high risk and high maintenance before, and Itanium has exposed it. A recommendation: Find out if the shared images for each database that you are currently linking against can be loaded through LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL of dlsym() depending on the language used. If so, stop linking against them, and dynamically load them as needed. [Take a look at how Python on VMS supports various databases] If they do not support direct dynamic loading, then it may be possible to put wrappers around them that you can dynamically load. This way you do not have to provide stub routines, and you do not have to go through such a complex build procedure. -John wb8tyw@qsl.net Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:42:57 -0700 From: rvfulltime Subject: Re: Itanium porting question Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:59:47 GMT, "John E. Malmberg" wrote: >Randy Park wrote: >> This is a second attempt to post this question. My news server sometimes >> fails to post messages and I've waited 4 hours for it to appears. My apologies >> if it shows up twice. >> >> I've been called in to help with a port to Itanium on some software that I was >> the prime developer for many many years. I haven't touched a VMS system in >> 4 years, plus I only worked part time on VMS for the previous 6 years. So here >> goes. >> >> The application is a commerical tool sold into the VMS marketplace. It supports >> many databases (Rdb, Oracle, etc.) plus RMS. All at the same time. But not all >> customers have all databases, let alone even one database. In order to make >> one set of images work for all customers we would go through the following >> generalized build procedure: >> >> 1. Compile all source code >> 2. Link executable images with all databases up and running. >> 3. Shut down database A. >> 4. Link again, and note all unresolved symbols. >> 5. Create shareable image(s) with stub routines containing entry points from step 4. >> 6. Redefine logicals relevant to database A to point to shareable image from stop 5 >> 7. Run and test software with database A missing >> 8. Repeat steps 3 through 7 for every database system. >> 9. At this point we now have an executable that can run with or without various >> databases being present. >> >> Notes: >> 1. All databases used shareable images. >> 2. During startup time, DCL procedures would look to see which databases were >> present and define logicals to point to stub images for missing databases. >> >> This general build process would work for almost all databases on Vax and Alpha. >> There were some strange things regarding CDD that I don't recall right now. >> >> The developers involved in the port are telling me that this general process no longer >> works on Itanium. They're getting some kind of "ELF" error message. (I'm trying to >> get the exact error message from them.) >> >> Any idea if this general approach should still work, or do we need to look at a >> different method? > >Step 5 is problematic on a VMS system any version, if you are intending >the same binary image to work with either your stub or with the real >shared image from the database vendor. > >For this, not only must you have all the symbols that are in the shared >image in the stub, you must also have them in the same place in the >symbol vector. And with out cooperation from the database vendor, it is >hard to get sufficient information to get it right. > >You will also run into problems where a vendor obsoletes a routine, and >puts the replacement into a different location in the transfer vector. > >Otherwise, you have to link your application at the customer site, and >if they ever add a database, you must relink your application to it. >And if you are doing that, there is no need for your stubs to be shared >images. > >My guess is that in the past someone worked out the minimum transfer >vectors for VAX and ALPHA images in right order on VAX and ALPHA, and >with Itanium as either the ELF format is too different, or one or more >of the database vendors has reorganized how the symbol vector is set up. > >The hack you were using was high risk and high maintenance before, and >Itanium has exposed it. > >A recommendation: > >Find out if the shared images for each database that you are currently >linking against can be loaded through LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL of dlsym() >depending on the language used. If so, stop linking against them, and >dynamically load them as needed. > >[Take a look at how Python on VMS supports various databases] > >If they do not support direct dynamic loading, then it may be possible >to put wrappers around them that you can dynamically load. > >This way you do not have to provide stub routines, and you do not have >to go through such a complex build procedure. > >-John >wb8tyw@qsl.net >Personal Opinion Only This method has worked for many versions of VMS over the last 15 years because the stub routines are never called. They are there so that the image activator will resolve the symbols. The software is in low to no maintenance mode and changing the code to support a LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL method would be a lot of work for all the databases with very little return on the investment. If we have to link on site during initial installation and relink when their database environment changes then that's what we will do. It would be nice to understand what has changed from vax/alpha to itanium and why our approach no longer works. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 17:09:35 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Itanium porting question Message-ID: rvfulltime wrote: > > This method has worked for many versions of VMS over the last 15 years > because the stub routines are never called. They are there so that the > image activator will resolve the symbols. On VAX and Alpha, the image activator does not resolve the symbols, it uses the offset coded into the main image to to access a vector in the shared image. It then provides fixups to the offsets to match where the image actually got loaded. It is the offset that absolutely must be the same in the stub and the real shared image. Inside the shared image, effectively there is a giant branch table that jumps to the start of where the routines actually are. Since you were just using the stub to keep the image activator happy and not actually calling the routines in the stub, or if all the routines ignored their parameters and just returned the same value, then you could get away with the hack on VAX and ALPHA. > The software is in low to no maintenance mode and changing the code to > support a LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL method would be a lot of work for > all the databases with very little return on the investment. If we have > to link on site during initial installation and relink when their database > environment changes then that's what we will do. > > It would be nice to understand what has changed from vax/alpha to > itanium and why our approach no longer works. Itanium uses the ELF image format. And that probably has changed a lot on how the image activator works. Someone more familiar with the image activator would probably be able to give some details. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:10:08 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: August 24, 2007 11:32 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) > > On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote: > [snip] > > > > I intend to sell a lot of HP boxes, all nicely loaded with > > significant software loads. Indeed, when I talked to a couple of > > my existing customers and floated the idea of moving to HP > > hardware, they were very excited about it. It surprised me to no > > end how excited in fact! :) > > Despite our grumpiness at some of your statements, we really *are* > glad that you are here, and really *do* hope that you succeed. > > Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do > (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it. > Re: RPG and OpenVMS .. Not sure if this is the same type of RPG, but there are some options here: Reference: http://www.migrationspecialties.com/Migration-RPG.html http://www.migrationspecialties.com/ContactUs.html (contact info) Bruce (site owner) has quite a bit of Mainframe to OpenVMS porting experien= ce and is a good resource to contact for those porting Mainframe code to OpenVMS. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:59:24 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) Message-ID: <002b01c7e730$e8ac4940$ba04dbc0$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 10:10 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > > Sent: August 24, 2007 11:32 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) > > > > On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > [snip] > > > > > > I intend to sell a lot of HP boxes, all nicely loaded with > > > significant software loads. Indeed, when I talked to a couple of > > > my existing customers and floated the idea of moving to HP > > > hardware, they were very excited about it. It surprised me to no > > > end how excited in fact! :) > > > > Despite our grumpiness at some of your statements, we really *are* > > glad that you are here, and really *do* hope that you succeed. > > > > Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do > > (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it. > > > > Re: RPG and OpenVMS .. > > Not sure if this is the same type of RPG, but there are some options > here: > > Reference: > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/Migration-RPG.html > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/ContactUs.html (contact info) > > Bruce (site owner) has quite a bit of Mainframe to OpenVMS porting > experience and > is a good resource to contact for those porting Mainframe code to > OpenVMS. > > Regards > Thanks Kerry - a great reference indeed. -Paul > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:05:21 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) Message-ID: On 08/25/07 10:10, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: August 24, 2007 11:32 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?) >> >> On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote: >> [snip] [snip] >> >> Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do >> (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it. >> > > Re: RPG and OpenVMS .. > > Not sure if this is the same type of RPG, but there are some options here: > > Reference: > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/Migration-RPG.html That's explicitly RPG-II, which is greatly different from RPG-IV. > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/ContactUs.html (contact info) > > Bruce (site owner) has quite a bit of Mainframe to OpenVMS porting experience and > is a good resource to contact for those porting Mainframe code to OpenVMS. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:15:56 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: Chuck Aaron wrote: > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally > submit this command with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's > and proc quotas where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option which will submit the command with another /user= ****** > unless that will not create any security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. Several options have been given already, typically writing a custom image installed with privilege. Much depends on what the "username" is that has to do the submit/user command and what security controls are in place for that user. You can have a privileged task watch for a file to be created and then do the submit/user. If you have DECNET installed, you can create a DECNET object that can be invoked as a user that is limited to doing your privileged task. This has the advantage that only DCL is needed. I have been using DECNET objects to allow non-privileged build procedures test code that requires privileges with out giving the build procedures directly to upgrade their privileges. -John wb8tyw@qsl.net Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:45:19 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: PWS500 au console transitions Message-ID: <46cffa24$0$3201$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> Tad Winters wrote: > Jim Mehlhop wrote in news:46cf6a39$0$497$815e3792 > @news.qwest.net: > >> I need to run the ra200rcu utility to configure my raid controller. It >> is run from the ARC console. Needless to say I run VMS from the SRM >> console. When my battery died I learned how to get from the ARC to the >> SRM, but I can not find any documentation to get from the SRM to the >> ARC. On the as1200, which I used to have the Users guide said to >> >>>>> set alphabios >> This did not seem to work on the PWS500. Anyone have a PWS500 Users >> Guide? barring that how the heck do you accomplish this?? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jim >> > > Have you tried typing arc? I've used that many times to get to where I can > run ra200rcu, or ra200srl. How about this: http://vt100.net/mirror/mds-199909/cd1/alpha/alunxuib.pdf There you'll find other manuals for DEC hardware and software, too. Regards, Kari ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:44:47 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Question about FTP and filenames Message-ID: In article <5j63mmF38ok0hU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > send local-file [remote-file] > A synonym for put. > > I used SEND in my example because he used SEND in his question. > I have never used send myself, always put. Same here, I usually use put. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 05:27:13 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1188044833.095025.309090@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 8:48 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > > The best evidence I've seen shows that much of our current warming > is natural and some of it is man made. I still think we ought to > take what action we can about the part we're contributing. > Good point but let me add the following... Question: if a large killer asteroid was heading for Earth, should we just throw up our hands and do nothing because collisions with Earth are natural and have happened before? Answer: No. We must do everything in our power to save our planet as well as our civilization. So if the planet is heating up, let's see if we can stop it. p.s. global warming is not a good idea. Here are just two quick facts: 1) cold water holds much more oxygen than warm water 2) 42 C for one hour will kill rice pollen (lots of people eat rice) Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:09:15 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <46D0461B.9756D288@spam.comcast.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > > On Aug 23, 8:48 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: > > > > The best evidence I've seen shows that much of our current warming > > is natural and some of it is man made. I still think we ought to > > take what action we can about the part we're contributing. > > > > Good point but let me add the following... > > Question: if a large killer asteroid was heading for Earth, should we > just throw up our hands and do nothing because collisions with Earth > are natural and have happened before? > > Answer: No. We must do everything in our power to save our planet as > well as our civilization. Q: What if we are powerless to stop it? Discussion: Humankind does not currently possess (as far as the public knows) the technology it would take to unleash the level of energy required to destroy/deflect a potentially devastating projectile. > So if the planet is heating up, let's see if we can stop it. Q's: 1. What if we are powerless to stop it? 2. What if our efforts to stop it serve to exacerbate the situation? Discussion: Climate change is a natural, "frequent" (in the astrological or geological timescales) occurrence. Humankind's record of "fooling with Mother Nature" does not suggest a likely positive outcome. I would opine that it may be possible to buffer the effects of a naturally occuring phenomenon - "may": no guarantees - within the limits of our technology. "Stopping" would be rather akin to adjusting the output of old Sol out there, adjusting the orbit of Terra around it or Terra's rotation about its axis, or otherwise attempting to modify the very nature of either the planet, the solar system or the universe. I'll repeat my conviction here as well: humankind did not cause climate change, humankind will not prevent it. ...and if you think now is bad, do a little research into "the dust bowl days". We can cause weather patterns to shift through mismanaging our soil and other resources, but we cannot effect factors that operate on a cosmic scale. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:55:04 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: On 08/25/07 07:27, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 23, 8:48 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> The best evidence I've seen shows that much of our current warming >> is natural and some of it is man made. I still think we ought to >> take what action we can about the part we're contributing. >> > > Good point but let me add the following... > > Question: if a large killer asteroid was heading for Earth, should we > just throw up our hands and do nothing because collisions with Earth > are natural and have happened before? http://www.gotfuturama.com/Information/Encyc-56-Garbage_Ball/ But seriously, if depending on when it's detected, there's probably *not* anything that can be done. > Answer: No. We must do everything in our power to save our planet as > well as our civilization. The unintended consequences of noble-but-not-well-thought-out intentions can be "problematic". > So if the planet is heating up, let's see if we can stop it. Convince your friends (if they are, in fact, your friends) in they environmental movement to push for the wide-scale use of modern- technology breeder reactors (no uranium waste!). > p.s. global warming is not a good idea. Here are just two quick facts: > > 1) cold water holds much more oxygen than warm water > > 2) 42 C for one hour Yeah, but 107.6 F is pretty darned hot. > will kill rice pollen (lots of people eat rice) Maybe Paul Ehrlich will (finally) be proven correct. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:29:37 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: [OpenVMS] Context lexical functions Message-ID: Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > As you might know there are some lexical functions for getting information > of a particular entity (like F$GETDVI, F$GETJPI, F$FILE_ATTRIBUTE) and > a companion lexical function for wildcard searches of these entities > (like F$DEVICE, F$CONTEXT/F$PID, F$SEARCH). > > Now with ODS5 and/or symbolic links, I think, there should be some > improvement in the F$SEARCH function area. > > eg. How to specify that F$SEARCH should not follow a subdirectory > (just like a DIR/EXC does, but lexical functions are there to not need to > parse DCL output in temporary files, right?) or symbolic link? > This would be handy to avoid an endless loop via SYS$COMMON:[GNV.MNT...] > (which is an alias for usually SYS$SYSDEVICE:[PSX$ROOT.MNT...]) I solved the endless loop problem a different way: See ftp://ftp.encompasserve.org/gnv/ . In particular gnv_com_2_1_patch_important_readme.txt . I have also submitted that to the HP GNV maintainer, but have not seen a response yet. Since then I found out that setting hard link or a mount point to "/" deeper in a directory tree is a "BAD THING" on UNIX and will cause the same type of endless looping problems in a directory search. It seems that you must not ever put a mount point or a hard link of a parent directory anywhere that it could be a child of that directory. The O'Reilly "Learning Perl" manual implies that most UNIXes prevent such a hard link from being made. And since "/" is the parent of all, it must never have a mount point or a hard link pointing to it. So if GNV and POSIX compliant pathnames need to be compatible with UNIX, they will need a fix. > eg. How to specify that F$SEARCH should look case sensitive? > Is the SET PROCESS/CASE_LOOKUP the (only) way to go? I suspect so. > Does anyone know of planned feature enhancements here? > A F$FILCTX perhaps? I do not. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:16:17 -0700 From: Didier_Toulouse Subject: [OT] 25-AUG-1944 Paris was set free Message-ID: <1188040577.743685.35490@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> How has General Philippe LECLERC DE HAUTECLOQUE (1902-1947) been able to enter Paris this Friday 25th of June, 1944 heading his 2e Armored Division? Because of the D-Day. So: Thank you. Didier French ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.466 ************************