INFO-VAX Fri, 07 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 488 Contents: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) How can I connect to a database on Unix from OpenVMS? Re: How can I connect to a database on Unix from OpenVMS? Re: How can I connect to a database on Unix from OpenVMS? Re: Intel Launches Quad-Core "Tigerton" Minimal Cluster Requirements Re: Minimal Cluster Requirements Re: Minimal Cluster Requirements node and port alloclass, cannot add a node to the cluster Re: node and port alloclass, cannot add a node to the cluster Re: Open source graphic drivers Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:47:06 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: In article <8sXDi.39753$Pv4.13936@newsfe19.lga>, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/06/07 11:29, JF Mezei wrote: > > Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: > >> 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and > >> does verify after write automatically. > > > > Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will > > survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short > > term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be > > used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better > > visibility on what will happen to this market. > > Go to your local porn store and see which it stocks: Blu-Ray or > HD-DVD. That's the one which will win. LOL! But many a true word spoken in jest. Dare I mention market penetration in this context? The is however another problem lurking, in terms of what Hollywood and the RIAA are allowed to get up to in this area. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 11:19:48 +0200 From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <46e117b4$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de> In article , JF Mezei writes: >Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: >> 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and >> does verify after write automatically. > >Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will >survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short >term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be >used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better >visibility on what will happen to this market. > I want to contradict. For backup you'll find better solutions instead of using CD/DVD/Blu-Ray. It happens very often that you must migrate your backup files (800bpi Tape,1600bpi,DAT,TK50,TK70,DLT III,DLT IV etc.). I can read my CDs burnt at least five years ago. The same is true for DVDs. The industry produces optical drives that can read all formats and media and one drive that is capable to read old media is sufficient if you need to migrate to another solution. Why do you hesitate in case of using optical drives and trust tapes that have a much higher rate of change. Eberhard ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ Want to have instant messaging, and chat rooms, and discussion groups for your local users or business, you need dbabble! -- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dbabble.htm ---- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 05:27:09 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <1189168029.533405.271620@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 5:19 am, vax...@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) wrote: > In article , JF Mezei > > writes: > >Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: > >> 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and > >> does verify after write automatically. > > >Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will > >survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short > >term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be > >used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better > >visibility on what will happen to this market. > > I want to contradict. > > For backup you'll find better solutions instead of using CD/DVD/Blu-Ray. > It happens very often that you must migrate your backup files > (800bpi Tape,1600bpi,DAT,TK50,TK70,DLT III,DLT IV etc.). > > I can read my CDs burnt at least five years ago. The same is true for > DVDs. > > The industry produces optical drives that can read all formats and media > and one drive that is capable to read old media is > sufficient if you need to migrate to another solution. Why do you > hesitate in case of using optical drives and trust tapes that have a > much higher rate of change. > > Eberhard [...] But they're so small: 700 MB and 7 GB (?) each. To archive my trading data I need dozens and dozens of CD's. And I have to prepare them on a logical-disk container file. The same data can fit on only a few DLT IV tapes without the need for container-file logical disks. Maybe they could make 12" optical disks? That would help, but still be outdone capacity-wise by tapes. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 14:38:25 +0200 From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <46e14641$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de> In article <1189168029.533405.271620@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Sep 7, 5:19 am, vax...@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard >Heuser-Hofmann) wrote: >> In article , JF Mezei >> >> writes: >> >Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: >> >> 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in >and >> >> does verify after write automatically. >> >> >Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will >> >survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as >short >> >term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not >be >> >used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is >better >> >visibility on what will happen to this market. >> >> I want to contradict. >> >> For backup you'll find better solutions instead of using >CD/DVD/Blu-Ray. >> It happens very often that you must migrate your backup files >> (800bpi Tape,1600bpi,DAT,TK50,TK70,DLT III,DLT IV etc.). >> >> I can read my CDs burnt at least five years ago. The same is true for >> DVDs. >> >> The industry produces optical drives that can read all formats and >media >> and one drive that is capable to read old media is >> sufficient if you need to migrate to another solution. Why do you >> hesitate in case of using optical drives and trust tapes that have a >> much higher rate of change. >> >> Eberhard > >[...] > >But they're so small: 700 MB and 7 GB (?) each. > >To archive my trading data I need dozens and dozens of CD's. And I >have to prepare them on a logical-disk container file. The same data >can fit on only a few DLT IV tapes without the need for container-file >logical disks. > >Maybe they could make 12" optical disks? That would help, but still be >outdone capacity-wise by tapes. > >AEF > > Your are right! That's why I see the need for many people to switch to Blu-Ray: 45 GB BD-R DL or rewritable BD-RE DL. And you can get it now! Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:49:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <46E148EA.9080705@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Sep 7, 5:19 am, vax...@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard > Heuser-Hofmann) wrote: > >>In article , JF Mezei >> >> writes: >> >>>Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: >>> >>>>2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and >>>> does verify after write automatically. >>> >>>Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will >>>survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short >>>term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be >>>used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better >>>visibility on what will happen to this market. >> >>I want to contradict. >> >>For backup you'll find better solutions instead of using CD/DVD/Blu-Ray. >>It happens very often that you must migrate your backup files >>(800bpi Tape,1600bpi,DAT,TK50,TK70,DLT III,DLT IV etc.). >> >>I can read my CDs burnt at least five years ago. The same is true for >>DVDs. >> >>The industry produces optical drives that can read all formats and media >>and one drive that is capable to read old media is >>sufficient if you need to migrate to another solution. Why do you >>hesitate in case of using optical drives and trust tapes that have a >>much higher rate of change. >> >>Eberhard > > > [...] > > But they're so small: 700 MB and 7 GB (?) each. > > To archive my trading data I need dozens and dozens of CD's. And I > have to prepare them on a logical-disk container file. The same data > can fit on only a few DLT IV tapes without the need for container-file > logical disks. > > Maybe they could make 12" optical disks? That would help, but still be > outdone capacity-wise by tapes. > > AEF > At one time they DID make 12" optical disks. Google for "WORM" or "Write Once Read Mostly". It has been 12-15 years since I've seen one. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:28:54 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <1189178934.709571.312710@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 8:38 am, vax...@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) wrote: > In article <1189168029.533405.271...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF > > > > writes: > >On Sep 7, 5:19 am, vax...@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard > >Heuser-Hofmann) wrote: > >> In article , JF Mezei > > >> writes: > >> >Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: > >> >> 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in > >and > >> >> does verify after write automatically. > > >> >Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will > >> >survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as > >short > >> >term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not > >be > >> >used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is > >better > >> >visibility on what will happen to this market. > > >> I want to contradict. > > >> For backup you'll find better solutions instead of using > >CD/DVD/Blu-Ray. > >> It happens very often that you must migrate your backup files > >> (800bpi Tape,1600bpi,DAT,TK50,TK70,DLT III,DLT IV etc.). > > >> I can read my CDs burnt at least five years ago. The same is true for > >> DVDs. > > >> The industry produces optical drives that can read all formats and > >media > >> and one drive that is capable to read old media is > >> sufficient if you need to migrate to another solution. Why do you > >> hesitate in case of using optical drives and trust tapes that have a > >> much higher rate of change. > > >> Eberhard > > >[...] > > >But they're so small: 700 MB and 7 GB (?) each. > > >To archive my trading data I need dozens and dozens of CD's. And I > >have to prepare them on a logical-disk container file. The same data > >can fit on only a few DLT IV tapes without the need for container-file > >logical disks. > > >Maybe they could make 12" optical disks? That would help, but still be > >outdone capacity-wise by tapes. > > >AEF > > Your are right! That's why I see the need for many people to switch > to Blu-Ray: 45 GB BD-R DL or rewritable BD-RE DL. > > And you can get it now! > > Eberhard OK, 45 GB is MUCH better. Cool! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:31:00 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <1189179060.343667.148080@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 8:49 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Sep 7, 5:19 am, vax...@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard > > Heuser-Hofmann) wrote: > > >>In article , JF Mezei > > >> writes: > > >>>Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: > > >>>>2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and > >>>> does verify after write automatically. > > >>>Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will > >>>survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short > >>>term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be > >>>used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better > >>>visibility on what will happen to this market. > > >>I want to contradict. > > >>For backup you'll find better solutions instead of using CD/DVD/Blu-Ray. > >>It happens very often that you must migrate your backup files > >>(800bpi Tape,1600bpi,DAT,TK50,TK70,DLT III,DLT IV etc.). > > >>I can read my CDs burnt at least five years ago. The same is true for > >>DVDs. > > >>The industry produces optical drives that can read all formats and media > >>and one drive that is capable to read old media is > >>sufficient if you need to migrate to another solution. Why do you > >>hesitate in case of using optical drives and trust tapes that have a > >>much higher rate of change. > > >>Eberhard > > > [...] > > > But they're so small: 700 MB and 7 GB (?) each. > > > To archive my trading data I need dozens and dozens of CD's. And I > > have to prepare them on a logical-disk container file. The same data > > can fit on only a few DLT IV tapes without the need for container-file > > logical disks. > > > Maybe they could make 12" optical disks? That would help, but still be > > outdone capacity-wise by tapes. > > > AEF > > At one time they DID make 12" optical disks. Google for "WORM" or > "Write Once Read Mostly". It has been 12-15 years since I've seen one. Yes, I remember them. The one I saw had excellent picture quality, at least for back then (circa mid-80s). They were called Laserdiscs, I believe, at least the video ones. Oh, of course: Laserdisc (and videodisc?) for video, WORM for computer data. Sounds right? OK, I'll look on the net. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:00:55 +0200 From: "Rudolf Wingert" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <001a01c7f114$74840ec0$994614ac@domina.fom> In article , Ron Johnson writes: >On 09/04/07 12:30, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1188926008.865710.82670@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, >> ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >[snip] >>>> >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> 1 Samuel chapter 15 vs 29 >>> >>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>> >> So we should be following everything in the old testament ? - the >> modifications made in the New Testament can not be valid because God >> can never change his mind ? So for instance Christians should all be >> eating only Kosher food and all men should be circumcised. > >a) - Jesus is/was supposed to be the fulfillment of the Law. Now that >Jesus was the final sacrifice under the Law and expiated our sin >(instead of the temporary propitiation via animal blood), we live under >Grace, not Law. Hello did you read 1. Mose 9.1-7. Here God says: you can eat all what you want, but without his blood. In the later days, God did change this for Israel. I think, that this was necessary to prevent his folk for some illnesses. They did not have the same possibilities like we (Trichinen, etc). This restriction was helpful instruction, not a law. So God did not change his mind. He did help his folk to survive. Best regards Rudolf Wingert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:11:57 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1maEi.8$q75.1@newsfe12.lga> In article , Ron Johnson writes: >{...snip...} >I laughed at VAXmn's comments, knowing them to be meant as light- >hearted banter. Light-hearted and yet serious! USC 18 sect. 116 makes female circumcision -- appropriately called 'Female Genital Mutilation' -- a crime! I see no difference with male circumcision. It is 'Male Genital Mutilation' and it should be made a criminal offense as well. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000116----000-.html >Unless you're Jewish or of a *radical* Christian sect, I think >you're taking this *WAY* too seriously. Religions... They all preach sexual propriety but have rituals wherein its practitioners and fondle and mutilate children's genitalia with impugnity. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 07:09:20 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 09/06/07 14:51, Doug Phillips wrote: >> On Sep 6, 1:21 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: [...] >>> For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not >>> predetermined before the sim is run. >>> >> >> The conclusion of the sim will be shown to have resulted from our >> "preset plan of action" whether that plan was sound or flawed. The > > Unless there's a RNG in there to simulate unpredictable external > variables. A seeded PRNG merely adds another layer of complexity. The result is still preset. But yes, introducing a random oracle into an deterministic automaton can result in a non-deterministic automaton. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:22:23 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <4obEi.295402$5y.136665@newsfe18.lga> On 09/07/07 07:09, briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> On 09/06/07 14:51, Doug Phillips wrote: >>> On Sep 6, 1:21 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > [...] >>>> For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not >>>> predetermined before the sim is run. >>>> >>> The conclusion of the sim will be shown to have resulted from our >>> "preset plan of action" whether that plan was sound or flawed. The >> Unless there's a RNG in there to simulate unpredictable external >> variables. > > A seeded PRNG merely adds another layer of complexity. The result is > still preset. Who uses seeded PRNGs anymore? I don't know how VMS does it, but /dev/random on Linux returns true randomness based on randomness in the motherboard. > But yes, introducing a random oracle into an deterministic automaton > can result in a non-deterministic automaton. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 09:25:11 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <7wOZA$C91ZQ+@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <6096f$46e0a043$cef8887a$22486@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > Everything reacts > according to some logic. "Random" simply means that we have not yet > mastered the understanding of what moves a particle to the left instead > of the right. 1) Faith never responds fully to logic, and I think that's how this thread got here. So I won't ask that anyone's god follow logic or the laws of physics. 2) The laws of physics do not say "we can't do this now", they say "this CANNOT be done". There are testable consequences of that statement beyond inability to make certain measurements and experiments have shown them to be true. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 09:30:24 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <46e0a037$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > I see, like the climate models then ... ? Climate models are climate models. Global warming is measured fact. The theories that go into the climate models are not readily testable, but some of thier predictions have been measured and found true. Which leads credibility to the models and the notion that some of the more dire predictions ought to be of concern. By the time we can prove them it may be too late. If we eventually disprove them we may have lost some economic growth dealing with them, but probably not our planet. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 09:35:41 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > > Yes, we'd be amazed at their technology, but we would know it was > technology. One possible explanation for both religious experiences of the past and UFO sightings since shows that much of our society has changed in its reaction to unexplainable phenomena. If someone resurected Lazarus today, we'd assume they knew something about medicine that we don't. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:58:27 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189177107.905489.77400@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 10:50 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > "An extraterrestrial species, hundreds or thousands of years more > > advanced than we are, would possess technology that would appear to us > > to not be the result of applied science but entirely supernatural, > > pure magic. > > This would definitely have been true until a couple decades ago. But > with advances in hollywood special effects , sci-fi TV and movies have > give us "normality" in many science fiction concepts. > > If some advanced beings landed here and they didn't have transporters, > we'd say "what, you don't yet have transporters ?" ? > > We wouldn't think what they are doing is magic, we'd ask "how did they > do that ?" or "how does this work". > > Yes, we'd be amazed at their technology, but we would know it was > technology. You've addressed the first idea which was an expanded version of Clark's 3rd law. The "new idea" presented by Mr. Koontz was the second half of the quote which is the inverse of that law. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:08:04 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189177684.986950.240700@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 7:40 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/07/07 07:10, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > > > > > In article <2t%Di.304$hP...@newsfe13.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > >> On 09/06/07 12:57, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>> In article , > >>> davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >>>> A lot of science fiction ideas may well be feasible but the method by which > >>>> they are accomplished will in the majority of cases be far different from that > >>>> envisaged by the scifi author. We went to the moon but we didn't use a cannon > >>>> like Jules Verne (though in other respects Verne was fairly accurate). > >>> There are some who would disagree with your idea regarding wether or not > >>> we used a cannon. Have you ever seen the quote from Chuck Yeager about > >>> why he turned down the opportunity to be one of the first astronauts? > >> No. > > >> But a cannon and a rocket are polar opposites. One uses fluid > >> dynamics and the other Newton's 3rd Law. > > > A cannon and a rocket are identical. Both use Newton's 3rt law. > > Eh. > > > It's just that the one uses a somewhat larger reaction mass than > > the other. > > Guns use chemically unstable materials to "[produce] a sudden > expansion of the material usually accompanied by the production of > heat and large changes in pressure (and typically also a flash > and/or loud noise) upon initiation; this is called the explosion.] > > The gas expanding in the confined area of the barrel "blows" the > projectile out the barrel like a breeze blows a leaf, or a person > blows a feather with his breath. > > OTOH, rockets "[obtain] thrust by the reaction to the ejection of > fast moving fluid from within a rocket engine." > > However... the gun's recoil is an expression of Newton's 3rd. > Newton's third law: "For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction." You have described actions -- chemicals exploding, gas expanding, breeze and breath blowing -- and named the reactions to those actions. Where is the law not applicable in any of your examples? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:38:59 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189186739.646033.25300@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 12:10 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: > >On 09/06/07 11:00, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32...@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > >>> On 09/05/07 08:08, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >>>> In article <1188944683.389501.295...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > >>>>> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > >>>>> Koehler) wrote: > >>>>>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > > >>>>>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for > >>>>>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." > >>>>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the > >>>>>> changes. > >>>>> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... > > >>>>> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel > >>>>> and other prophecies and they are happening right > >>>>> now before your very eyes ... > > >>>> If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then > >>>> everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. > >>> Not true. > > >>> "Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. > > >> No it doesn't. > > >And I disagree. > > >$ dict predetermined > >3 definitions found > > >From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 > >[gcide]: > > > Predetermine \Pre`de*ter"mine\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. > > {Predetermined}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Predermining}.] [Pref. pre- > > + determine: cf. F. pr['e]d['e]terminer.] > > 1. To determine (something) beforehand. --Sir M. Hale. > > [1913 Webster] > > > 2. To doom by previous decree; to foredoom. > > [1913 Webster] > > >From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: > > > predetermined > > adj 1: set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a > > predetermined time" [syn: {preset}, {predetermined}] > > >> For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined > >> (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't > >> imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the > >> Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial > >> conditions and laws of the Universe. > >> (For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about > >> pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of > >> Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). > > >I just totally disagree with that meaning of predetermined. > > >For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not > >predetermined before the sim is run. > > Yes they are. They are predetermined by the initial conditions and the rules of > the program. The fact that you don't know the outcome doesn't make the result > any less predetermined. > (I'm simplifying slightly here since to be fully deterministic you have to > consider not just the program and initial conditions but also any additional > input from an external source during the programs running eg user input, > timing sensitivity of the hardware running the simulation eg multiple processes > updating the same data at the same time and hardware errors. > ) > > The classical ie Newtonian Universe is a clockwork Universe which is > theoretically completely deterministic. > > Pierre-Simon Laplace 1814 > > " > We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and > the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all > forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which > nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these > data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the > greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an > intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be > present before its eyes. > " Oh dear. Now you've opened the door for another battle of dead scientists:-) > > In practise there are many situations where even slight changes in initial > conditions result in wildy different behaviour emerging ie Chaotic systems > but for any given set of initial conditions the behaviour is fully > deterministic. > > An omniscient God would be in the position of Laplace's intellect and would > thus have the future present before his eyes. > Like I said in another thread long ago that was probably kill-filed by most c.o.v.er's, an all-powerful and all-knowing God could have arranged the big-bang to happen in such a way that no further intervention would have been needed. It is interesting to read all of the mentions of Chaos made here since that thread. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:16:07 -0000 From: jmDesktop Subject: How can I connect to a database on Unix from OpenVMS? Message-ID: <1189163767.379111.253820@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Hi, I have a program on OpenVMS that needs to get data from a database on Unix (Ingres is the db.) Any ideas on how to do this? Thanks for any help. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 09:44:27 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How can I connect to a database on Unix from OpenVMS? Message-ID: <$g7LwT7ixMUG@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1189163767.379111.253820@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jmDesktop writes: > Hi, I have a program on OpenVMS that needs to get data from a database > on Unix (Ingres is the db.) Any ideas on how to do this? Thanks for > any help. Yep. Millions of them. Maybe you can narrow them down? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:45:48 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: How can I connect to a database on Unix from OpenVMS? Message-ID: vancouvercancun@yahoo.ca wrote: > On Sep 7, 7:16 am, jmDesktop wrote: >> Hi, I have a program on OpenVMS that needs to get data from a database >> on Unix (Ingres is the db.) Any ideas on how to do this? Thanks for >> any help. > > Ingres 9.0.4 is available on OpenVMS Alpha platform. I would presume > it includes client connectivity tools to any Ingres DB platform. > If you are looking for the Itanium platform, contact ingres for > information and post your results here. > > See ingres web site at www . ingres . com. Since Ingres is open > source, it's free. > > BOL > Van > And usual (at least for teh many databases I'v looked at) the client connectivity part is separataly installable. No need to install the full Ingres distro, I'd guess. Like installing the SQL*net client part of Oracle classic. Or SQL/Services client API's for Rdb... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:14:31 +0000 (UTC) From: Rick Jones Subject: Re: Intel Launches Quad-Core "Tigerton" Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > How many cores can an IA64 based Superdome have ? There are up to 64 sockets in a Superdome. At present, with dual-core Montecito that means 128 cores or 256 threads. rick jones -- No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause. There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision. - Jobert these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:16:02 GMT From: lars1227@verizon.net Subject: Minimal Cluster Requirements Message-ID: All VMS group members, I have a client that is running two separate Alpha 1000A VMS servers, each with its own local set of applications and data. These are old, non-supported Alpha servers that are being used to support local government operations. We believe this is a RISKY thing to do, despite the solid, reliable engineering designed into these servers. The two Alphas are not clustered. We believe the client should establish a cluster that provides a basic level of fall-back and higher availability, in case one of the boxes develops a serious problem that potentially could take down public works or accounting operations. This will buy them some time to figure out what to do next. Can someone out there provide an overview of the minimum steps needed to establish a cluster with these two boxes? Pertinent facts: -- boxes are in separate locations about 4 miles apart -- fibre exists between the two locations -- both boxes are running OpenVMS 7.3 with local OS boot disks -- the agency also runs a large Windows-based server farm for Exchange and SQL-Server, available on the LAN; some LAN storage is used to back up pertinent Alpha files and data -- TCP/IP, DECnet and LAT are all running on the network I am familiar w/ the 1000A server; I used to run one as a hobbyist at home, but I never had it clustered. Assuming these two boxes can be fibre-linked together over the WAN and are close enough together to keep themselves alive. I also assume the disk drives in each box can be "served" to the cluster and "seen" by each cluster member. But, I'm having a hard time figuring out where to establish the quorum disk, since all the Alpha disks are mounted in the server boxes. Do we need a third VMS server someplace? Could someone please enlighten us as to how to create a basic cluster so that these two boxes can be "true" backups for each other? If you would, please copy your reply to: lars1227 at verizon dot net as well as to the rest of this group. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:40:10 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Minimal Cluster Requirements Message-ID: <1189179610.208504.40520@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 11:16 am, lars1...@verizon.net wrote: > All VMS group members, > > I have a client that is running two separate Alpha 1000A VMS servers, each > with its own local set of applications and data. > These are old, non-supported Alpha servers that are being used to support > local government operations. We believe this is a RISKY thing to do, > despite the solid, reliable engineering designed into these servers. > > The two Alphas are not clustered. We believe the client should establish a > cluster that provides a basic level of fall-back and higher availability, in > case one of the boxes develops a serious problem that potentially could take > down public works or accounting operations. This will buy them some > time to figure out what to do next. > > Can someone out there provide an overview of the minimum steps needed to > establish a cluster with these two boxes? > Pertinent facts: > -- boxes are in separate locations about 4 miles apart > -- fibre exists between the two locations > -- both boxes are running OpenVMS 7.3 with local OS boot disks > -- the agency also runs a large Windows-based server farm for Exchange and > SQL-Server, available on the LAN; some LAN storage is used to > back up pertinent Alpha files and data > -- TCP/IP, DECnet and LAT are all running on the network > > I am familiar w/ the 1000A server; I used to run one as a hobbyist at home, > but I never had it clustered. > > Assuming these two boxes can be fibre-linked together over the WAN and are > close enough together to keep themselves alive. I also > assume the disk drives in each box can be "served" to the cluster and "seen" > by each cluster member. > But, I'm having a hard time figuring out where to establish the quorum disk, > since all the Alpha disks are mounted in the server boxes. Do we > need a third VMS server someplace? > > Could someone please enlighten us as to how to create a basic cluster so > that these two boxes can be "true" backups for each other? > > If you would, please copy your reply to: lars1227 at verizon dot net > as well as to the rest of this group. > > Thanks. Lars, Merging these two systems into a cluster to provide increased availability is a good idea, but care is needed to ensure that the merge goes smoothly. With all of the storage attached to each host, the most serious problem will be with data replication. There are a variety of traps here, and I have seen clients fall into them (generally the reason assistance was asked for). Almost any newer generation Alpha hardware will be of higher capacity than the existing hardware. A quorum disk will be needed, or one node will have to be the "preferred" node (a situation that I do not prefer). On the other hand, one (or both) of the existing AlphaServers can be used as a Quorum node. Some of the issues involved in this merge will be: - hardware - storage - connectivity (copying gigabytes of data between sites is slow; no matter how high the bandwidth) - incompatibilities between applications - file protections and UIC group assignments (if there are conflicts, they will have to be resolved by moving the conflicting groups). The goal of using a cluster to provide mutual support and reinforcement is an excellent one, and it generally can be accomplished without impacting either of the user communities significantly, if care and caution are exercised in the process. retaining someone experienced with such situations and cluster issues in general is also a sound idea. Done properly, this can be accomplished almost transparently without disruption. It also has the potential to be highly disruptive. (Disclosure: My firm, as do several others who are active in this forum, does provide consulting services of this type). - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 12:16:13 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Minimal Cluster Requirements Message-ID: In article , lars1227@verizon.net writes: > All VMS group members, > > I have a client that is running two separate Alpha 1000A VMS servers, each > with its own local set of applications and data. > These are old, non-supported Alpha servers that are being used to support > local government operations. We believe this is a RISKY thing to do, > despite the solid, reliable engineering designed into these servers. > > The two Alphas are not clustered. We believe the client should establish a > cluster that provides a basic level of fall-back and higher availability, in > case one of the boxes develops a serious problem that potentially could take > down public works or accounting operations. This will buy them some > time to figure out what to do next. I would not put these old systems into a two node cluster, you're going to find one node can run alone but the other cannot. On these systems, at the distances you measured, there's no way to share a quorum disk on dual-pathed physical connections. If they were co-located, I'd just suggest adding a third node (Charon-VAX would do if you need a supported platform, or pick up a cheap used system.) But you'll have problems managing the cluster common disk when the node its normally on is to be down and when that node suffers unexpected outage (VMS may not go down, but how good is your power source?). If you do decide to cluster, I'd pick up the third node and look real hard at making sure that power outage at the site with two nodes won't take them both down, as well as looking at redundancy in the fibre connection between sites and it's power source. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:50:14 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: node and port alloclass, cannot add a node to the cluster Message-ID: <20070907155014.GA46122@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> I've a 2node cluster and I'm having trouble adding a 3rd node. I've been reading the Cluster Systems manual for ages but some points are still a bit obscure. My cluster: +--------------------------------------------------------+-----------------+ | SYSTEMS | MEMBERS | +--------+--------------------------------+--------------+-------+---------+ | NODE | HW_TYPE | SOFTWARE | VOTES | STATUS | +--------+--------------------------------+--------------+-------+---------+ | OKAPI | AlphaServer DS10L 617 MHz | VMS V8.3 | 1 | MEMBER | | DONKEY | HP rx2620 (1.60GHz/3.0MB) | VMS V8.3 | 1 | MEMBER | +--------+--------------------------------+--------------+-------+---------+ and I want to add a 3rd node, also ds10l. All nodes boot from MSA1000, OKAPI from $1$DGA1: and DONKEY from $1$DGA2: I set up the MSA LUNs via CLI, so the above disks names are as they appear in VMS. I understand that number "1" in the above disk names is a port allocation class. Is that correct? I assigned both nodes a node allocation class, also 1. Do I need to do this if the port allocation is already in use? I run DECnet-Plus on both nodes. Now I want to add a second alpha node (LLAMA) to the cluster, also to boot from $1$DGA1. I run CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM from OKAPI, and specify that the page and swap files for the new cluster member will be on its local disk. At which point the program tells me to boot up the new cluster member, and shows the message: Waiting for LLAMA to boot... Following are the screen outputs from 3 nodes: on LLAMA during booting ******************* %CNXMAN, Sending VMScluster membership request to system DONKEY %CNXMAN, Now a VMScluster member -- system OKAPI %STDRV-I-STARTUP, OpenVMS startup begun at 7-SEP-2007 15:49:09.14 %CNXMAN, Lost connection to system DONKEY %PEA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit - REMOTE NODE OKAPI %CNXMAN, Quorum lost, blocking activity %CNXMAN, Timed-out lost connection to system DONKEY %CNXMAN, Proposing reconfiguration of the VMScluster %CNXMAN, Removed from VMScluster system DONKEY %CNXMAN, Completing VMScluster state transition %PEA0, Port has Closed Virtual Circuit - REMOTE NODE DONKEY At this point DONKEY crashes: on DONKEY *************** $ **** OpenVMS I64 Operating System V8.3 - BUGCHECK **** ** Bugcheck code = 000005DC: CLUEXIT, Node voluntarily exiting VMScluster ** Crash CPU: 00000000 Primary CPU: 00000000 Node Name: DONKEY ** Supported CPU count: 00000002 ** Active CPUs: 00000000.00000003 ** Current Process: NULL ** Current PSB ID: 00000001 ** Image Name: After rebooting DONKEY it cannot form cluster with OKAPI on DONKEY after rebooting ******************************* %CNXMAN, Lost connection to system OKAPI %PKB0, Copyright (c) 2001 LSI Logic, PKM V1.1.01 %PKB0, SCSI Chip is LSI53C1030, Operating mode is LVD Ultra320 SCSI %PKB0, LSI53C1030 firmware version is 1.3.35.65 %MSCPLOAD-I-CONFIGSCAN, enabled automatic disk serving %CNXMAN, Timed-out lost connection to system OKAPI %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE OKAPI %PEA0, Inappropriate SCA Control Message - FLAGS/OPC/STATUS/PORT 00/22/00/FE while LLAMA discovered DONKEY but still cannot connect on LLAMA after rebooting DONKEY ************************************* %CNXMAN, Discovered system DONKEY %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE DONKEY %CNXMAN, Discovered system DONKEY %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE DONKEY %PEA0, Inappropriate SCA Control Message - FLAGS/OPC/STATUS/PORT 00/22/00/FE %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE DONKEY %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE DONKEY %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE DONKEY on OKAPI all this time *********************************** Waiting for LLAMA to boot... Waiting for LLAMA to boot... If I now shutdown LLAMA, the old 2node DONKEY-OKAPI cluster is formed on DONKEY after issuing RMC>reset on LLAMA ***************************************** %PEA0, Virtual Circuit Timeout - REMOTE NODE OKAPI %CNXMAN, Established connection to system OKAPI %CNXMAN, Now a VMScluster member -- system DONKEY Two final questions. While runnig CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM I see these 2 warnings: WARNING: If the node being added is a voting member, EXPECTED_VOTES for every cluster member must be adjusted. For complete instructions check the section on configuring a cluster in the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. CAUTION: If this cluster is running with multiple system disks and common system files will be used, please, do not proceed unless appropriate logical names are defined for cluster common files in SYLOGICALS.COM. For instructions, refer to the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. I understand that I need to adjust EXPECTED_VOTES only after the new node is added successfully. Is that correct? I understand that "multiple system disks" means multiple system disks for the same architecture, i.e. 2 alpha system disks, or 3 i64 system disks. As I only have a single alpha and a single I64 disk I presume I don't have "multiple system disks". Is that correct? many thanks anton -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 12:22:56 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: node and port alloclass, cannot add a node to the cluster Message-ID: <7Ntom3nFZZye@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <20070907155014.GA46122@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > > %CNXMAN, Lost connection to system DONKEY Running through all the messages it really looks like you've got a network problem. > CAUTION: If this cluster is running with multiple system disks and > common system files will be used, please, do not proceed > unless appropriate logical names are defined for cluster > common files in SYLOGICALS.COM. For instructions, refer to > the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual. > > I understand that I need to adjust EXPECTED_VOTES only after the new > node is added successfully. Is that correct? I'd set the proper number of VOTES and EXPECTED_VOTES once you decide what they are. In your case 1 each and 3, or 1 per boot disk and 2. > I understand that "multiple system disks" means multiple system > disks for the same architecture, i.e. 2 alpha system disks, or 3 i64 > system disks. As I only have a single alpha and a single I64 disk I > presume I don't have "multiple system disks". Is that correct? You do have multiple system disks as far as the logical names refered to in the above message are concerned. For example, there should only be one SYSUAF and all three nodes should have a logical name pointing to it, unless it just happens to be findable in sys$system: on that node. So if you put it in sys$common:[sysexe] on the disk the Alphas share then you only really need to define that on the IA64. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:35:29 -0700 From: David Mathog Subject: Re: Open source graphic drivers Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > http://news.com.com/8301-13580_3-9772788-39.html > > ATI/AMD have decided to release open source drivers for their graphics > cards. This, to help the Linux world which really wnats everything to > be open sourced. I believe that they also stated they would be releasing much more technical information about the cards too. For the last several years neither Nvidia nor ATI were letting this information out, making the writing of graphics drivers by third parties extremely difficult. I think this policy hurt ATI much more than Nvidia though, in the sales of high end cards for Linux workstations. During this time, the linux drivers from Nvidia have been pretty good, while those from ATI have historically been, umm, "not so good". Back in the day, when ATI used to release technical information, that didn't matter so much, since one could buy a very good X11 implementation from XIG for ATI cards. However since ATI clammed up on its technical specs third party drivers went away, and that pretty much left Nvidia as the only game in town for high end 3D graphics cards for Linux. The quality of the drivers was the deciding factor to go with Nvidia the last time I had to buy a set of cards. I liked the ATI cards, but there was no reliable way to use them on Linux. (The systems in question dual boot XP and Linux.) Regards, David Mathog ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 04:09:21 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: <1189163361.045496.51610@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 11:51 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > >> HI. > >> Currently running VMS system with : > > >> DS20/500, 2 CPU > >> VMS 7.3-2 > >> TCPIP 5.4 ECO 2 > >> OSU web server 3.6 and 3.8 (in three running copies) > > >> Now I've been asked to evaluate "WEB Services" > >> as a new "interface" to this system. I have checked > >> the WSIT and SOAP pages at HP. As far as I can see, > >> there are a few show stoppers as the system is > >> configured today. I need (at least one) ODS-5 disk > >> and also a current JAVA install for WSIT. But, according > >> to the development manual for WSIT, there are (at least one) > >> some tools (OBJ2IDL.EXE) that only runs on VMS I64. > >> That's a major problem, of course. > > >> Anyway, are there anyone who actualy have tried/used > >> these tools? And any other thought about this WEB Services > >> "thing" are also welcome. > > >> I'm currenly using the simple DCL scripting of the OSU > >> server (which works just OK) to produce dynamic page > >> contents. The WEB services is ment to be a data-transfer > >> interface, sort of not-having-to-use-FTP. I guess that one > >> also cat get a more "on-line" interface where apps can > >> exchange status info over the same connection. Now, not > >> realy sure what I'm talking about here... :-) :-) > > >> Jan-Erik. > > > I use SOAP to communicate with several other companies that I don't know > > (and don't really care) what O/S, etc they use. It works very well for > > me. Tools? Practically none. All SOAP is, as far as I can see, is some > > standardized XML which I generate using an XML template from an OpenVMS > > Basic program calling CURL to do the actual transmission. The last one I > > did, took me about 3 hours from receiving the SOAP spec to actually > > exchanging data. Could some tools reduce that programming time? Maybe if > > I spent a month or so sorting out all the options, learning how they are > > supposed to be used, Googling out arcane questions that everyone asks > > and no one answers. > > > CURL is one of the tools that I have found that is really worth learning > > what the options can really do for you. > > > Jeff Coffield > > Hi. > Sound interesting. cURL is like a file transfer tool, > as far as I know. In my case, my server will mostly > *receive* data (datafiles with fixed format structured > records). That is, as the receiving side of an "WEB Service" > transaction. > > Jan-Erik. Jan-Erik, Of course, WSIT and SOAP is potentially a complicated discussion. As a starting point, there is the fact that SOAP is used both to refer to a protocol (the Simple Object Access Protocol; which is a standard for structuring XML entities for exchange over various lower-level messaging protocols, e.g. SMTP and HTTP). It is also used as a name by the one of the implementations of that protocol; hence much of the confusion. There are other implementations to ease use of this protocol by C/C++ and other traditional higher level languages, including gSOAP (which John App referenced the other week in this newsgroup). There is an article by David Sullivan in a back issue of the OpenVMS Technical Journal, as well as several presentations on the subject from the Technology Symposium and the Bootcamp. While I have not checked in the last few weeks, a functioning set of the tools for the packages available on the OpenVMS www site did run on Alpha. I would suspect that the tool which was referred to in this thread original posting was "Itanium-only" because it referenced the object file format, which differs on Alpha and Itanium. There are also SOAP implementations in PERL and other scripting languages. The reason for using a SOAP toolkit is long-term flexibility, not the ability to craft a program which speaks SOAP for a single, limited purpose. The downside is that dealing with a toolkit means assimilating a new package, with its own inherent learning curve. The good news is that the SOAP packages have tended to be Open source; the bad news is the documentation and sources are also of the "Open Source" standard. While I would not hesitate to write a one-shot to generate XML, I would recommend that a client seriously consider adopting a toolkit for this approach. It is a far safer long-term solution. If the one- shot approach were still desired, I would strongly recommend a local- developed minimal SOAP toolkit, used as a shareable library, to allow later replacement by a standard package without re-working large volumes of code. I would avoid explicitly hand-generating XML. I hope that the above is helpful. If I can be of assistance, in the forum or privately, please let me know. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:47:49 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Sep 6, 11:51 am, Jan-Erik Söderholm > wrote: >> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: >>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>> HI. >>>> Currently running VMS system with : >>>> DS20/500, 2 CPU >>>> VMS 7.3-2 >>>> TCPIP 5.4 ECO 2 >>>> OSU web server 3.6 and 3.8 (in three running copies) >>>> Now I've been asked to evaluate "WEB Services" >>>> as a new "interface" to this system. I have checked >>>> the WSIT and SOAP pages at HP. As far as I can see, >>>> there are a few show stoppers as the system is >>>> configured today. I need (at least one) ODS-5 disk >>>> and also a current JAVA install for WSIT. But, according >>>> to the development manual for WSIT, there are (at least one) >>>> some tools (OBJ2IDL.EXE) that only runs on VMS I64. >>>> That's a major problem, of course. >>>> Anyway, are there anyone who actualy have tried/used >>>> these tools? And any other thought about this WEB Services >>>> "thing" are also welcome. >>>> I'm currenly using the simple DCL scripting of the OSU >>>> server (which works just OK) to produce dynamic page >>>> contents. The WEB services is ment to be a data-transfer >>>> interface, sort of not-having-to-use-FTP. I guess that one >>>> also cat get a more "on-line" interface where apps can >>>> exchange status info over the same connection. Now, not >>>> realy sure what I'm talking about here... :-) :-) >>>> Jan-Erik. >>> I use SOAP to communicate with several other companies that I don't know >>> (and don't really care) what O/S, etc they use. It works very well for >>> me. Tools? Practically none. All SOAP is, as far as I can see, is some >>> standardized XML which I generate using an XML template from an OpenVMS >>> Basic program calling CURL to do the actual transmission. The last one I >>> did, took me about 3 hours from receiving the SOAP spec to actually >>> exchanging data. Could some tools reduce that programming time? Maybe if >>> I spent a month or so sorting out all the options, learning how they are >>> supposed to be used, Googling out arcane questions that everyone asks >>> and no one answers. >>> CURL is one of the tools that I have found that is really worth learning >>> what the options can really do for you. >>> Jeff Coffield >> Hi. >> Sound interesting. cURL is like a file transfer tool, >> as far as I know. In my case, my server will mostly >> *receive* data (datafiles with fixed format structured >> records). That is, as the receiving side of an "WEB Service" >> transaction. >> >> Jan-Erik. > > Jan-Erik, > > Of course, WSIT and SOAP is potentially a complicated discussion. As a > starting point, there is the fact that SOAP is used both to refer to a > protocol (the Simple Object Access Protocol; which is a standard for > structuring XML entities for exchange over various lower-level > messaging protocols, e.g. SMTP and HTTP). It is also used as a name by > the one of the implementations of that protocol; hence much of the > confusion. > > There are other implementations to ease use of this protocol by C/C++ > and other traditional higher level languages, including gSOAP (which > John App referenced the other week in this newsgroup). There is an > article by David Sullivan in a back issue of the OpenVMS Technical > Journal, as well as several presentations on the subject from the > Technology Symposium and the Bootcamp. While I have not checked in the > last few weeks, a functioning set of the tools for the packages > available on the OpenVMS www site did run on Alpha. I would suspect > that the tool which was referred to in this thread original posting > was "Itanium-only" because it referenced the object file format, which > differs on Alpha and Itanium. > > There are also SOAP implementations in PERL and other scripting > languages. > > The reason for using a SOAP toolkit is long-term flexibility, not the > ability to craft a program which speaks SOAP for a single, limited > purpose. The downside is that dealing with a toolkit means > assimilating a new package, with its own inherent learning curve. The > good news is that the SOAP packages have tended to be Open source; the > bad news is the documentation and sources are also of the "Open > Source" standard. > > While I would not hesitate to write a one-shot to generate XML, I > would recommend that a client seriously consider adopting a toolkit > for this approach. It is a far safer long-term solution. If the one- > shot approach were still desired, I would strongly recommend a local- > developed minimal SOAP toolkit, used as a shareable library, to allow > later replacement by a standard package without re-working large > volumes of code. I would avoid explicitly hand-generating XML. > > I hope that the above is helpful. If I can be of assistance, in the > forum or privately, please let me know. > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > Hi and many thanks for a realy content-rich post! Not too common these days, I'm afraid... :-) To add the the picture, this "new" interface is ment to complement the current that is a simple mail based communication. The "other side" simply sends a mail to a specific user, using an agreed on subject with a datafile ZIP'ed and attachede using standrad MIME format. On the VMS system ("my" system) this mail is taken care of using DELIVER/MPACK/MUNPACK/UNZIP and the datafile is finely FTP'ed over to an IBM mainframe to be stored into a central DB2 database. The mainframe interface is not the target right now. Now, some users would like to have an alternative to this mail based communication. FTP has been discussed. WEB Services was also mentioned. And that's why I was asking. OK, I have to dig a little more into this. As you said, one of the problems with open source stuff is that it might be hard to find a consistant set of documentation... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:42:58 -0700 From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > > To add the the picture, this "new" interface is ment > to complement the current that is a simple mail based > communication. The "other side" simply sends a mail > to a specific user, using an agreed on subject with a > datafile ZIP'ed and attachede using standrad MIME format. > On the VMS system ("my" system) this mail is taken care > of using DELIVER/MPACK/MUNPACK/UNZIP and the datafile > is finely FTP'ed over to an IBM mainframe to be stored > into a central DB2 database. The mainframe interface is > not the target right now. > > Now, some users would like to have an alternative to > this mail based communication. FTP has been discussed. > WEB Services was also mentioned. And that's why I was > asking. > > OK, I have to dig a little more into this. > As you said, one of the problems with open source > stuff is that it might be hard to find a consistant > set of documentation... > > Jan-Erik. > If the "other side" is a person, why not put up a web page with a file upload? If the "other side" is a program, then some change would have to be made since it currently sends a e-mail. That can usually be switched to cURL to do the post. The web page on your side is the same. Jeff Coffield ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:43:39 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > >> >> To add the the picture, this "new" interface is ment >> to complement the current that is a simple mail based >> communication. The "other side" simply sends a mail >> to a specific user, using an agreed on subject with a >> datafile ZIP'ed and attachede using standrad MIME format. >> On the VMS system ("my" system) this mail is taken care >> of using DELIVER/MPACK/MUNPACK/UNZIP and the datafile >> is finely FTP'ed over to an IBM mainframe to be stored >> into a central DB2 database. The mainframe interface is >> not the target right now. >> >> Now, some users would like to have an alternative to >> this mail based communication. FTP has been discussed. >> WEB Services was also mentioned. And that's why I was >> asking. >> >> OK, I have to dig a little more into this. >> As you said, one of the problems with open source >> stuff is that it might be hard to find a consistant >> set of documentation... >> >> Jan-Erik. >> > > If the "other side" is a person, why not put up a web page with a file > upload? If the "other side" is a program, then some change would have to > be made since it currently sends a e-mail. That can usually be switched > to cURL to do the post. The web page on your side is the same. > > Jeff Coffield No, the other side are different client application. And they'd like to use the latest busniess buzz-words, of course. Whatever that looks good in the data sheets. :-) And it should be a fully automated setup. No manual intervention in any part. So, the *BEST* solution for *me*, is one where the client can use WEB services (or whatever "new" tools they like) and I can continue with the same hardware/VMS/OSU setup. I do not now what tools there are on Windows servers, but WEB Services was mentioned as one that they'd look at as interesting. Now, I guess I need some XML tool to receive and decode whetever the WEB Servicesa/SOAP tools at the client creates, right ? Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:42:03 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: <1189179723.335314.172260@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 9:43 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > > >> To add the the picture, this "new" interface is ment > >> to complement the current that is a simple mail based > >> communication. The "other side" simply sends a mail > >> to a specific user, using an agreed on subject with a > >> datafile ZIP'ed and attachede using standrad MIME format. > >> On the VMS system ("my" system) this mail is taken care > >> of using DELIVER/MPACK/MUNPACK/UNZIP and the datafile > >> is finely FTP'ed over to an IBM mainframe to be stored > >> into a central DB2 database. The mainframe interface is > >> not the target right now. > > >> Now, some users would like to have an alternative to > >> this mail based communication. FTP has been discussed. > >> WEB Services was also mentioned. And that's why I was > >> asking. > > >> OK, I have to dig a little more into this. > >> As you said, one of the problems with open source > >> stuff is that it might be hard to find a consistant > >> set of documentation... > > >> Jan-Erik. > > > If the "other side" is a person, why not put up a web page with a file > > upload? If the "other side" is a program, then some change would have to > > be made since it currently sends a e-mail. That can usually be switched > > to cURL to do the post. The web page on your side is the same. > > > Jeff Coffield > > No, the other side are different client application. And they'd > like to use the latest busniess buzz-words, of course. Whatever > that looks good in the data sheets. :-) And it should be a fully > automated setup. No manual intervention in any part. > > So, the *BEST* solution for *me*, is one where the client can use > WEB services (or whatever "new" tools they like) and I can > continue with the same hardware/VMS/OSU setup. > > I do not now what tools there are on Windows servers, but WEB Services > was mentioned as one that they'd look at as interesting. > > Now, I guess I need some XML tool to receive and decode whetever > the WEB Servicesa/SOAP tools at the client creates, right ? > > Jan-Erik. Because your application has a limited/specialized need, and because XML is just text, it's simple to parse it yourself and extract whatever you need without implementing the entire XML "standard." You could even do it in DCL if you wanted (but that would not be my first choice.) And, you could tell the client that you're using SOAP (but not tell him that stands for Same Old Application Program;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:52:40 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > On Sep 7, 9:43 am, Jan-Erik Söderholm > wrote: >> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: >>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>> To add the the picture, this "new" interface is ment >>>> to complement the current that is a simple mail based >>>> communication. The "other side" simply sends a mail >>>> to a specific user, using an agreed on subject with a >>>> datafile ZIP'ed and attachede using standrad MIME format. >>>> On the VMS system ("my" system) this mail is taken care >>>> of using DELIVER/MPACK/MUNPACK/UNZIP and the datafile >>>> is finely FTP'ed over to an IBM mainframe to be stored >>>> into a central DB2 database. The mainframe interface is >>>> not the target right now. >>>> Now, some users would like to have an alternative to >>>> this mail based communication. FTP has been discussed. >>>> WEB Services was also mentioned. And that's why I was >>>> asking. >>>> OK, I have to dig a little more into this. >>>> As you said, one of the problems with open source >>>> stuff is that it might be hard to find a consistant >>>> set of documentation... >>>> Jan-Erik. >>> If the "other side" is a person, why not put up a web page with a file >>> upload? If the "other side" is a program, then some change would have to >>> be made since it currently sends a e-mail. That can usually be switched >>> to cURL to do the post. The web page on your side is the same. >>> Jeff Coffield >> No, the other side are different client application. And they'd >> like to use the latest busniess buzz-words, of course. Whatever >> that looks good in the data sheets. :-) And it should be a fully >> automated setup. No manual intervention in any part. >> >> So, the *BEST* solution for *me*, is one where the client can use >> WEB services (or whatever "new" tools they like) and I can >> continue with the same hardware/VMS/OSU setup. >> >> I do not now what tools there are on Windows servers, but WEB Services >> was mentioned as one that they'd look at as interesting. >> >> Now, I guess I need some XML tool to receive and decode whetever >> the WEB Servicesa/SOAP tools at the client creates, right ? >> >> Jan-Erik. > > Because your application has a limited/specialized need, and because > XML is just text, it's simple to parse it yourself and extract > whatever you need without implementing the entire XML "standard." You > could even do it in DCL if you wanted (but that would not be my first > choice.) > > And, you could tell the client that you're using SOAP (but not tell > him that stands for Same Old Application Program;-) > OK. So the clients "SOAP-call" could point to some URL mapped in the OSU server to a DCL script (just as usual) that then does the usual HTML/XML decoding. Maybe calling a small C/perl or whatever hack to speed it up. Hm, have to look closer at that. So the client can use any SAOP tool of his selection, on my side it's just a specialy formatted html/xml file, right ? Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:29:20 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: SOAP, WSIT, I'm LOST, sort of... Message-ID: <1189186160.544965.257020@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Sep 7, 11:52 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Sep 7, 9:43 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm > > wrote: > >> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > >>> Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > >>>> To add the the picture, this "new" interface is ment > >>>> to complement the current that is a simple mail based > >>>> communication. The "other side" simply sends a mail > >>>> to a specific user, using an agreed on subject with a > >>>> datafile ZIP'ed and attachede using standrad MIME format. > >>>> On the VMS system ("my" system) this mail is taken care > >>>> of using DELIVER/MPACK/MUNPACK/UNZIP and the datafile > >>>> is finely FTP'ed over to an IBM mainframe to be stored > >>>> into a central DB2 database. The mainframe interface is > >>>> not the target right now. > >>>> Now, some users would like to have an alternative to > >>>> this mail based communication. FTP has been discussed. > >>>> WEB Services was also mentioned. And that's why I was > >>>> asking. > >>>> OK, I have to dig a little more into this. > >>>> As you said, one of the problems with open source > >>>> stuff is that it might be hard to find a consistant > >>>> set of documentation... > >>>> Jan-Erik. > >>> If the "other side" is a person, why not put up a web page with a file > >>> upload? If the "other side" is a program, then some change would have= to > >>> be made since it currently sends a e-mail. That can usually be switch= ed > >>> to cURL to do the post. The web page on your side is the same. > >>> Jeff Coffield > >> No, the other side are different client application. And they'd > >> like to use the latest busniess buzz-words, of course. Whatever > >> that looks good in the data sheets. :-) And it should be a fully > >> automated setup. No manual intervention in any part. > > >> So, the *BEST* solution for *me*, is one where the client can use > >> WEB services (or whatever "new" tools they like) and I can > >> continue with the same hardware/VMS/OSU setup. > > >> I do not now what tools there are on Windows servers, but WEB Services > >> was mentioned as one that they'd look at as interesting. > > >> Now, I guess I need some XML tool to receive and decode whetever > >> the WEB Servicesa/SOAP tools at the client creates, right ? > > >> Jan-Erik. > > > Because your application has a limited/specialized need, and because > > XML is just text, it's simple to parse it yourself and extract > > whatever you need without implementing the entire XML "standard." You > > could even do it in DCL if you wanted (but that would not be my first > > choice.) > > > And, you could tell the client that you're using SOAP (but not tell > > him that stands for Same Old Application Program;-) > > OK. > So the clients "SOAP-call" could point to some URL mapped > in the OSU server to a DCL script (just as usual) that then > does the usual HTML/XML decoding. Maybe calling a small C/perl > or whatever hack to speed it up. Hm, have to look closer at that. > So the client can use any SAOP tool of his selection, on my > side it's just a specialy formatted html/xml file, right ? > > Jan-Erik. It's just text. If the tags are consistent and not likely to change often, rolling-your-own parser should be fairly easy. If things are frequently changing or there are more than a few varying style sheets then using one of the available kits would be better. (IMO) If they can create a file that you can see, you only need to worry about extracting the information from the file. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:07:01 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <1189095456.211518.139450@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Sue wrote: > VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product That's a wonderful one Sue! My only reservation is that non-VMS users might not understand the word "layered". Anyone have a suitable substitute? -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:18:45 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <1189116041.770555.262640@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, Rich Jordan wrote: > VMS - Too damned expensive, and worth every penny LOL! Reassuringly expensive, and worth every penny. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:36:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: P. Sture wrote: > My only reservation is that non-VMS users might not understand the word > "layered". Anyone have a suitable substitute? > VMS, where security is not an afterthought ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 06:22:23 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <62XOAsSIhWI4@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <1189095456.211518.139450@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > Sue wrote: > >> VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product > > That's a wonderful one Sue! > > My only reservation is that non-VMS users might not understand the word > "layered". Anyone have a suitable substitute? add-on ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:42:26 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <46E14732.7060106@comcast.net> P. Sture wrote: > In article <1189095456.211518.139450@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > Sue wrote: > > >>VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product > > > That's a wonderful one Sue! > > My only reservation is that non-VMS users might not understand the word > "layered". Anyone have a suitable substitute? > VMS - Where scurity is not an add-on! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:39:28 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product > > VMS - Where scurity is not an add-on! OK, so we've fixed the problem with "layered product" not being a widely known expression. Perhaps we should now work on fixing "scurity" which is even less widely known ? :-) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2007 09:42:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <46E14732.7060106@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > > VMS - Where scurity is not an add-on! > Gee, don't any of us have spell checkers? 8-) VMS - security is standard, patches are not VMS - comes with security, not patches ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:55:36 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <1189095456.211518.139450@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Sue writes: >On Sep 5, 6:36 pm, Rich Jordan wrote: >> On Sep 5, 1:40 pm, Sue wrote: >> >> >> >> > Some clarification around the license plates >> >> > the top left corner there is a small hp logo then top center there is >> > the New Hampshire state moto (Live Free or Die) top right corner there >> > is the year 2007. In the center there is a 2 to 2 1/2 inch OpenVMS >> > and across the bottom is the slogan >> >> > The following are the slogans that have been submitted so far that >> > were not under copywrite, did not mention a persons name that we would >> > have to get permission from, I did leave is some of the funny ones but >> > we will have to narrow it down and then vote in a week or so. More on >> > that later. Now just looking for more ideas. >> >> > Warm Regards as always >> > Sue >> >> . >> . >> . >> >> I wish there was a way to encapsulate in a few words the fact that our >> VAX had its last VMS installation in 1983-4 (before my time), and our >> Alpha in 1995. Since then we have applied VMS upgrades, sometimes >> also copying the existing system disk to a newer/larger drive or newer >> interface type for an upgraded system, but we have NOT ever needed to >> do a reformat/reinstall of the operating system. There's little bits >> of VMS V4.1 (and maybe older, I'm not certain) on the VAX system disk, >> and 6.1 on the Alpha's, with file creation dates to match. >> >> Not to mention the fact that our 1989 vintage VS3100-30 workstation, >> our 1992 vintage MicroVAX, and I think the 1993 vintage AXP PC-150 >> (belongs to someone else now) are still running just fine, thanks, >> after many, many years of 24x7 service. >> >> VMS, the closest you can get to eternal computing. >> >> VMS, to eternity, and beyond! >> >> VMS, prepared for Y10K and beyond! >> >> And apologies in advance... >> >> If you've got your Windows grippin' >> on your data, but its slippin' >> to the hackers that are nippin' >> at your door... >> >> Just remember 'bout the Vaxen >> that your bosses said were taxin' >> and the Gartner boys were blastin' >> all the more... >> >> 'Cause back then you could be sleepin' >> While your consoles were a-beepin' >> with the hacker's failed beatin' >> at the core... >> >> But your future is a keepin' >> up with expoits of the week 'n >> So with windows you'll be sleepin' >> Nevermore- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >Dear Rich, > >That is pretty amazing. I just forwarded it to myself so I can send >to the VMS Engineering group, I think they will like it. > >Two more slogans for me > >VMS, the best is still to be. >VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product > I trust the latter is supposed to be security and not obscurity :) David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:01:33 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <9c249$46e183e3$cef89f6a$28493@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> "Curly sold us out" "Carly did nothing for us." -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:05:05 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: Sue wrote: > Some clarification around the license plates > > the top left corner there is a small hp logo then top center there is > the New Hampshire state moto (Live Free or Die) top right corner there > is the year 2007. In the center there is a 2 to 2 1/2 inch OpenVMS > and across the bottom is the slogan > > The following are the slogans that have been submitted so far that > were not under copywrite ....... I guess my grant of license isn't going to be taken up because HP isn't interesting in marketing VMS. SS, DD -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.488 ************************