INFO-VAX Mon, 10 Dec 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 676 Contents: DECwindows defaults when display is on another system Re: DECwindows defaults when display is on another system Re: Installation of DEGPA-TA on VMS 7.2-1 system One size fits all? Its been so for a decade now Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: Unix for VMS guys Re: Unix for VMS guys Re: Unix for VMS guys Re: Unix for VMS guys Re: What causes a STKOVF Re: What causes a STKOVF Re: What causes a STKOVF Re: What causes a STKOVF Re: What causes a STKOVF Re: What causes a STKOVF X-windows: MAC server on VMS client Re: X-windows: MAC server on VMS client Re: X-windows: MAC server on VMS client ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:24:14 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: DECwindows defaults when display is on another system Message-ID: From different accounts on VMS, including one which has not used decwindows before: $MC DECW$MAIL $SET DISP/CREATE/TRANSPORT=TCPIP/NODE= $MC DECW$MAIL In the first instance, I get the desired colours. That workstation's window manager's colours for window decorations, and black on white for the menu bar as well as main window pane. In the second instance, I get the Mac's window decorations (as expected). But inside the window, the menu bar is black on blue, and the main pane is also black on blue. CREATE/TERM also has the black/blue menu bar, but normal black/white main pane. AKA: those colours are not tied to just one application, not tied to a single user. Those apps are runned from the $ so no session manager involved. No CDE running. So it points to some common file being read which sets that background to blue, and when targetted to that workstation, is overriden by a resource in the window manager. Would that be a correct assumption ? doing a SET WATCH FILE while starting decw$mail shows only DECW$MAIL.DAT being searched. There are a couple of I8N.LOCALE files, SYSUAF.DAT etc (and MAIL.DAT, of course). The DECW$MAIL.DAT file doesn't contain any colour definitions. (besides, that colour isn't tied to a specific application). There are a gazillion .L_PM and .PM files in some CDE directory. Could that blue have been defined by CDE when I toyed with it and apps still pick it up ? If so, how do I know which fil to look for in the CDE directories ? Any other hints on what to look for to find the file guilty of setting that blue background when output is targetted at a different machine ? Local X apps on the Macintosho don't display blue stuff, so it wouldn't be any defaults on the mac that did this. Besides, I had seen that blue before. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Sewell Subject: Re: DECwindows defaults when display is on another system Message-ID: <0ef1a3eb-fcb5-4e89-a1f1-f9f21de0e441@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Dec 10, 8:24 am, JF Mezei wrote: > From different accounts on VMS, including one which has not used > decwindows before: > > $MC DECW$MAIL > > > > $SET DISP/CREATE/TRANSPORT=TCPIP/NODE= > $MC DECW$MAIL > > In the first instance, I get the desired colours. That workstation's > window manager's colours for window decorations, and black on white for > the menu bar as well as main window pane. > > In the second instance, I get the Mac's window decorations (as > expected). But inside the window, the menu bar is black on blue, and the > main pane is also black on blue. > > CREATE/TERM also has the black/blue menu bar, but normal black/white > main pane. > > AKA: those colours are not tied to just one application, not tied to a > single user. > > Those apps are runned from the $ so no session manager involved. No CDE > running. > > So it points to some common file being read which sets that background > to blue, and when targetted to that workstation, is overriden by a > resource in the window manager. > > Would that be a correct assumption ? > > doing a SET WATCH FILE while starting decw$mail shows only DECW$MAIL.DAT > being searched. There are a couple of I8N.LOCALE files, SYSUAF.DAT etc > (and MAIL.DAT, of course). > > The DECW$MAIL.DAT file doesn't contain any colour definitions. (besides, > that colour isn't tied to a specific application). > > There are a gazillion .L_PM and .PM files in some CDE directory. > > Could that blue have been defined by CDE when I toyed with it and apps > still pick it up ? If so, how do I know which fil to look for in the CDE > directories ? > > Any other hints on what to look for to find the file guilty of setting > that blue background when output is targetted at a different machine ? > > Local X apps on the Macintosho don't display blue stuff, so it wouldn't > be any defaults on the mac that did this. Besides, I had seen that blue > before. The X server reads a set of resources from XRESOURCES.DAT under VMS; the names are similar but different under flavors of UNIX, perhaps including MacOS X. I cannot speak for classic Mac OS X servers. These resources can indeed include overrides. Window managers also use local copies of resource files, not those read from the client. (In other words, both of these are server-side resources -- or, in the case of a window manager, whatever machine the window manager is running on, which may be client, server, or some other machine. That's where you look.) If you want to force the colors for DECW$MAIL, do it in DECW$MAIL.DAT; don't rely on the server & window manager setup to do the work for you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:54:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Wilts Subject: Re: Installation of DEGPA-TA on VMS 7.2-1 system Message-ID: On Dec 6, 9:28 am, "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > Customer is having a problem with installation of DEGPA-TA copper Gigabit > card (old style) in a ES40 > Can anyone PLEASE send an install guide (I can't find one anywhere in our > docs) and or user guide to dtur...@islandco.com I've got one in my ES40 running V7.3-2 (the docs say you must be running 7.1-2 or later). I do have the paper doc but don't have an electronic version. It's marked: COMPAQ PCI to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter Installation and Configuration Guide Revised Edition October 2000 Part Number EK-DEGPA-IN.B01 There's not much for installation instructions in the doc... What seems to be the problem? David, feel free to drop me email directly to my address below - I don't check comp.os.vms as often as I should these days. .../Ed Ed Wilts, RHCE, BCFP, BCSD Sr. IT Architect, Storage Services, Merrill Corporation mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:39:22 -0800 (PST) From: gorecroot Subject: One size fits all? Its been so for a decade now Message-ID: <78a7f4ff-4cc6-4a99-9032-1ec26ae3ab2d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Source: http://www.gorecroot.com/ An open job position requirement is sent to recruiters, the details are blurred, probably the job position itself was copy pasted from somewhere and tailored a wee bit. Of course there is a deadline. The recruiter has her own doubts about compensation matching up to skills. But there is a deadline and this is a challenge that the recruiter should take up, to prove her credentials and, perhaps an entry into the recruiter hall of fame. Search job boards, portals, hit the network There is electricity in the air with a good chance of the energy turning into panic Assuming that a new open job position does mean that there are some unique (if not anything rare or nearly extinct) traits... Freeze frame, and let's ponder a few questions: Why should all job order formats be the same And more important, why should all resume formats be the same Information that is relevant to make a decision definitely varies. Can anyone out here argue - debate that one resume format fits all? Thats like, I would want to know technical skills of a merchandize manager or, want to know the sales targets of my payroll services associate... But then, why do we take the one size fits all approach from all job services and portals? Anyone working multiple sectors? Specifically non information technology recruiters? Shout it out... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:33:13 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: George Cook schrieb: > In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >> >>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC. >>This version is unable to render most of the stuff >>which is around in the WWW today. > > > I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement? > I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic. This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even for other historical platforms left in the cold as far as browsers are concerned. However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. And as compared to the number of people working at M$ to spoil the standards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:38:37 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article <7c16e6f4-35f6-44d8-8503-5765d580b029@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > Did you see the piece about this on "60 Minutes"? No. > I heard a broadcast > of it on the radio and the point was that with this project, > attendance at schools in the Third World is way, way up because of > this laptop project. I well understand that much learning must be done > without computers, but at least this is getting the kids to go to > school. So I think the point is not that the kids have a laptop -- the > point is that the laptop gets the kids to go to school. That might be true, but I doubt that that is the motivation for those behind the project. Considering the cost, I'm sure that one could spend the equivalent on almost anything else and get the children to school with that as bait. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:58:13 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <5b520$475cffa6$cef8887a$8667@TEKSAVVY.COM> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > That might be true, but I doubt that that is the motivation for those > behind the project. Considering the cost, I'm sure that one could spend > the equivalent on almost anything else and get the children to school > with that as bait. It is wrong to assume that developping nations will follow the same path as that of the USA. They won't go with mechanical landline phones, to crossbar to DMS switches, they will go with digital mobile phones right away. They woN't go with books, they will go with digital content right away (much cheaper to distribute). Give the kids access to the internet and networking between them, and they will become somewhat computer literate and may hope to get jobs. Computer skills give someone the ability to particpate in the "global village" both socially and economically. Lack of such skills condemn them to 3rd world economic activity in their area (aka: status quo). Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:35:50 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > >George Cook schrieb: >> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >>> >>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC. >>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff >>>which is around in the WWW today. >> >> >> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement? >> > >I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic. >This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even >for other historical platforms left in the cold >as far as browsers are concerned. > >However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep >up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number >of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. >And as compared to the number of people working at M$ to spoil the >standards. I never realize how sadly true your last statement was until I started to update a certain web site. It had hundreds of PHP files and there are so many comments in the code about brain-damage in M$IE that it's probably 20% or more of the code. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:36:55 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep > up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number > of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser. This was the goal of HTML from the start. Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota in no time. Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it). Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS. But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories. Note that it took me quite a while to find the tricks to make thunderbird on the mac "standards compliant" (no html, no fancy text editor etc), and I have yet to figure out the way to remove the stupid colours in the text window (different colours for different quoting levels which make the actual text harder to read since the coloured text is the one that is most flashy). ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 2007 07:59:18 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article <475a7ef1$0$27828$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= writes: > > In mid 90's there was built a AlphaBook, as you surely know, but for > some reason it never became popular. IMHO the reason was exactly what > you mentioned; VMS vas not made available early enough on laptops. The Alpha laptops made by Tadpole were $14K US. Compare that to x86 laptops which topped out at about $5K US. Makes it easy to understand popularity. Tadpole had a niche business, they made laptops for non-Wintel, non-Macintosh systems for people who had to have them and could afford the niche price. We had their SPARC laptop running Solaris on one project. If you had to have Solairs, VMS, or something else that wasn't Wintel or Macintosh at the time, and you had to have it portable, you bought from Tadpole. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 2007 08:03:11 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article <13ce4$475b2683$cef8887a$5430@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei > writes: > >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> > Whenever I hear about this nonsense, I wish all of these self-appointed >> > gurus would read Cliff Stoll. >> > >> >> So what do those OLPC laptops run then ? > > Some sort of Linux. > So all the world needs is one virus that knows a hole in that Linux. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 2007 09:57:31 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > George Cook schrieb: >> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >>> >>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC. >>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff >>>which is around in the WWW today. >> >> >> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement? >> > > I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic. > This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even > for other historical platforms left in the cold > as far as browsers are concerned. > > However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep > up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number > of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. Not keeping up with Java and Javascript seems a benefit to me. I am less impressed by not keeping up with cascading style sheets, but I don't know enough about those to see any security implications. But I do not know what "official" means in the context of free software. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 07 13:21:14 EST From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > Michael Kraemer wrote: > >> However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep >> up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number >> of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. > > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser. > > This was the goal of HTML from the start. > > > Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very > fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota > in no time. Yes, Mosaic does all but a few obscure "pure" HTML V4 features. It would support those features if I ever found any web pages using them. "Pure" meaning any feature not needing Javascript, non-English fonts, etc. > Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make > layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not > 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it). Support for iframes was added back in 2000 at version 3.6-1. > Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS. > > But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS > sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 07 13:42:21 EST From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >> George Cook schrieb: >>> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >>>> >>>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC. >>>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff >>>>which is around in the WWW today. >>> >>> >>> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement? >>> >> >> I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic. >> This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even >> for other historical platforms left in the cold >> as far as browsers are concerned. >> >> However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep >> up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number >> of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. > > Not keeping up with Java and Javascript seems a benefit to me. > > I am less impressed by not keeping up with cascading style sheets, > but I don't know enough about those to see any security implications. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a "standard" library of code for cascading style sheets. The best I could find the last time I looked was a piece of code which parsed them into an internal format. The documentation for the code and internal format fit the usual standard these days (i.e., none). Even the css "standards" leave a lot to the imagination. Implementing a complete set of css code just for Mosaic is far beyond my means. > But I do not know what "official" means in the context of free > software. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 2007 07:47:58 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Unix for VMS guys Message-ID: In article <475A08B7.80707@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > BTW, does Unix even HAVE mandatory locking yet? Of course not, that's why folks use vipw instead of vi. There are anecdotes from the history of UNIX directly related to editor fowlups when editing /etc/passwd. But the if you change the UNIX filesystem to implement mandatory locking, your going to break lots of existing code that assumes shared access. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:24:14 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Unix for VMS guys Message-ID: <475D5A1E.6020300@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <475A08B7.80707@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>BTW, does Unix even HAVE mandatory locking yet? > > > Of course not, that's why folks use vipw instead of vi. There are > anecdotes from the history of UNIX directly related to editor fowlups > when editing /etc/passwd. But the if you change the UNIX filesystem > to implement mandatory locking, your going to break lots of existing > code that assumes shared access. > I KNEW there was a reason I've always preferred VMS! ;-) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 2007 16:57:02 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Unix for VMS guys Message-ID: <5s59euF177g2rU2@mid.individual.net> In article <475b59eb$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Did you even read what I wrote? /etc/passwd doesn't contain the password >> file, at least not anything that passes for Unix/Linux today. Unless you >> are still working with SunOS or Ultrix, you can't "vi /etc/passwd". But, >> that's OK, you just keep doing it your way. :-) > > You most certainly can vi /etc/passwd. I just did on my Linux box > (Centos 4.5 and kernel 2.6.9 is not latest and greatest but newer > than Ultrix). > > The password is not in that file. But nobody in this thread has > claimed so. After editing /etc/passwd you need to use passwd to > set the password. Well, I just tried it with RedHat and FreeBSD (I am downloading the iso for Centos 4.5 now and in a few hours I can try that too) and it didn't work for either of them. It did exactly as would be expected. I used vi to add the user wfg to the end of the file. In both cases because the user does not appear in the shadow/master.passwd file it does not exist and the passwd can't give it a password. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:53:38 GMT From: Bob Harris Subject: Re: Unix for VMS guys Message-ID: In article <5s59euF177g2rU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <475b59eb$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, > Arne Vajhøj writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> Did you even read what I wrote? /etc/passwd doesn't contain the password > >> file, at least not anything that passes for Unix/Linux today. Unless you > >> are still working with SunOS or Ultrix, you can't "vi /etc/passwd". But, > >> that's OK, you just keep doing it your way. :-) > > > > You most certainly can vi /etc/passwd. I just did on my Linux box > > (Centos 4.5 and kernel 2.6.9 is not latest and greatest but newer > > than Ultrix). > > > > The password is not in that file. But nobody in this thread has > > claimed so. After editing /etc/passwd you need to use passwd to > > set the password. > > Well, I just tried it with RedHat and FreeBSD (I am downloading the iso > for Centos 4.5 now and in a few hours I can try that too) and it didn't > work for either of them. It did exactly as would be expected. I used > vi to add the user wfg to the end of the file. In both cases because the > user does not appear in the shadow/master.passwd file it does not exist > and the passwd can't give it a password. > > bill If there is a shadow password file, then you need to run pwconv after changing the /etc/passwd file. A lot of the comments expressed in this thread are from days of a less complex Unix environment before shadow password files. Bob Harris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:44:11 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Sewell Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: On Dec 7, 11:34 am, Volker Halle wrote: > Joe, > > can you create a process dump ? SET PROC/DUMP before running the image > or use RUN/DUMP for a detached process. Then you have the complete > process address space (including the stack) available for analysis > with ANAL/PROC. > > Volker. In this case, we do have process dumps (an unusual occurrence). I haven't seen anything that leaps out at me yet. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:45:37 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Sewell Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: On Dec 7, 3:03 pm, Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Dec 7, 10:36 am, Joe Sewell wrote: > > > > > > > The following involves OpenVMS V8.3A with various ECOs applied. It > > happens in a DECwindows app. I'd have to find out hardware & firmware > > details, if necessary. > > > Okay, I've read the OpenVMS FAQ and the pertinent portions of Hoff's > > Wizard stuff on stack overflow exceptions, but most of them simply say > > "get a reproducer and talk with the support center." > > > First off, I don't know how to reproduce the particular stack overflow > > we're seeing (it's in a large multiprocess system with external inputs > > out the wazoo); I'm not even sure I know if it was operator actions > > that caused it or the external inputs. The code for just the one > > process that got the SS$_STKOVF exception is huge. > > > What I need is an idea of when the RTL or lower layers detect a "stack > > overflow" in a non-threaded situation (though it's a DECwindows app, > > just in case it's multithreading for some reason), so I might get some > > idea of where to look. (The place where the exception happened didn't > > reveal too much.) > > > It sounds like the RTL actually pre-checks for a case where pushing n > > bytes onto the stack would cause the stack to overflow the thread's > > stated stack size (in a multithreaded app), and signal SS$_STKOVF > > before it goes off the deep end. What does it do for a single threaded > > app? > > Joe, > > First, let me welcome you to posting in COMP.OS.VMS. > > The actual details of the stack overflow handling are likely (I do not > have one of my copies handy) in the Internals and Data Structures > manual. The gross details of this have not changed in a VERY long > time. > > I would also be concerned about the possibility that someone has > overwitten a saved stack pointer in a call frame, and as a result the > stack is effectively corupt when the RETURN is executed. These can be > devilishly difficult to localize (been there, done that). > > There are a variety of strategies that can be used to localize this > type of problem. Which is appropriate depends on many factors. The > most central question is: What (if any) tracking/debugging code is > already present in your application that can help reduce the size of > the search. > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com I've got a 5.5 version handy; wish I had thought of that sooner. Thanks. It's possible that something smashed the stack, but all the call frames look correct otherwise, something that I've found to be rare when the stack gets puked upon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:46:17 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Sewell Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: <3a1f9f7a-7311-47e0-b063-e982c8e1e1c7@18g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Dec 7, 4:43 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <854de914-e03c-4f8b-bf33-dd0df67af...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: > > > > > I would also be concerned about the possibility that someone has > > overwitten a saved stack pointer in a call frame, and as a result the > > stack is effectively corupt when the RETURN is executed. These can be > > devilishly difficult to localize (been there, done that). > > One of the first problems I had to debug on my first Alpha was a > return to 0. I'd never seen one on a VAX and it didn't occur to me > that a program running on VMS could do such a stupid thing until I > saw it. What I got first was a last-chance exception handler dump > of registers that didn't point anywhere usefull. (At that point the > process seems to have no stack, so no traceback handler). > > A process dump in that case didn't tell me anything I didn't already > know, return to 0 pretty much wiped out pointers to everything > usefull. > > I had to run with the debugger many times, doing a binary search for > the line of code that caused the error, and then study the machine > listing to figure out what was going on. (Reading through compiler > generated prolog code is such fun! Made me really miss CALLx/RET!) Been there, done that. The problem is we cannot seem to reproduce this reliably; all I've got is the afore-mentioned process dump. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:55:48 -0500 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: Joe Sewell wrote: > What I need is an idea of when the RTL or lower layers detect a "stack > overflow" in a non-threaded situation (though it's a DECwindows app, > just in case it's multithreading for some reason), so I might get some > idea of where to look. (The place where the exception happened didn't > reveal too much.) > > It sounds like the RTL actually pre-checks for a case where pushing n > bytes onto the stack would cause the stack to overflow the thread's > stated stack size (in a multithreaded app), and signal SS$_STKOVF > before it goes off the deep end. What does it do for a single threaded > app? To answer your question: In a multi-threaded/multi-stacked application, each stack is a fixed size (no automatic expansion) and there are 'yellow zones' to help DECthreads know when you are near the edge of the stack. The Calling Standard has lots of details on how stack checking is implemented by the compilers. In a traditional single-stack application, there is no yellow zone since there is automatic stack expansion. The stack will expand and expand until you run out of page file quota. You'll eventually end up with an ACCVIO I believe. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:33:57 -0800 (PST) From: Volker Halle Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: <22a54eba-11cd-4796-bb00-405e08ceab15@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> Joe, if you have process dumps available, that's a starting point. Start with DBG> SHOW CALL Which routine/module is the first (top-most) in the call chain ? Always the same in all the dumps ? What does DBG> EXA/INS tell you ? Volker. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:00:33 -0800 (PST) From: Volker Halle Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: <05fe6c56-069b-4301-b6b7-2b4c8eddb069@r1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Joe, you'll get a STKOVF (instead of just an ACCVIO), if the process is running a Thread Manager (like PTHREADs) or you're not running on the process's initial kernel thread. Use SDA> SHOW PROC/IMA to see, whether PTHREAD$RTL is in the image list. I'll bet it is for a DECwindows image. Check the stack pointer SP with DBG> EX SP then examine the stack addresses and limits DBG> SDA SDA> EXA ctl$aq_stack;20 SDA> EXA ctl$aq_stacklim;20 SDA will show 1 quadword for each stack (offset 0=kernel, then exec, super, user) Try to figure out, if the current SP is near the limits (or outside) the stack. Volker. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 02:23:45 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: X-windows: MAC server on VMS client Message-ID: <3dd87$475ce982$cef8887a$5497@TEKSAVVY.COM> While I have managed to get VMS to pop X applications on the mac, there are a few glitches. Has anyone worked through such glitches ? Would appreciate any hints on to fix them, where to put x resource files on the mac etc. Is it correct to state that on the mac, X fonts are synthetised from the MAC's real fonts, or is tere still a conventioanl X font directory and aliases file ? For instance, X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string "-*-Menu-Medium-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-P-* -ISO8859-1" to type FontStruct Can I just use Fontographer to convert the Menu font from VMS into a foramt the MAC accepts ? Or is it just a question of copying that file to the X directories on the mac ? > Name: copyToClipboard > Class: XmPushButtonGadget > Illegal mnemonic character; Could not convert X KEYSYM to a keycode Is there a cookbook to translate those keycodes (there are a few) so that when the VMS app startes on a MAC display, he X server on the MAC understands those keycodes (and has them mapped to some key combination) ? My current mac keyboard only has 15 PF keys. Hoff's website has some notes on mac keyboards used for X apps, but no mention on how to syntehsise the PF16 to PF20 (ncluding the HELP and DO keys (PF15 and PF16) I've asked Santa for a new Apple keyboard. Maybe that will help solve the problem. However, if I don't get it, should I consider buying an LK style USB kevboard for a MAC (I know this may be considered heresy by mac purists). I have a DEC LK french canadian keyboard layout that I had created with ResEdit on classic, and was able to move this to the OS-X system folder succesfully. This seems to only affect the characters generated by the keys, not the actual keycodes (so no sure I could use that trick to remap PF keys). Also, the xhost file that is used is the one in the user's own directory structure. And it seems to be zapped to some default everytime ytou rebioot (or perhaps login). Does anyone know where the default file is located ? And finally, what is the recommended way to have the mac trigger a command on the VMS host ? (eg: define the display to be the mac, then create/term/detached/nologged) It would be nice to have that happen automatically when I log-in. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:32:43 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: X-windows: MAC server on VMS client Message-ID: In article <3dd87$475ce982$cef8887a$5497@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > >While I have managed to get VMS to pop X applications on the mac, there >are a few glitches. Has anyone worked through such glitches ? Would >appreciate any hints on to fix them, where to put x resource files on >the mac etc. > >Is it correct to state that on the mac, X fonts are synthetised from the >MAC's real fonts, or is tere still a conventioanl X font directory and >aliases file ? I gave up on the X11 Apple was shipping and purchased a third party's X11 server for the Powerbook -- eXodus from http://powerlan-usa.com >I've asked Santa for a new Apple keyboard. Maybe that will help solve >the problem. However, if I don't get it, should I consider buying an LK >style USB kevboard for a MAC (I know this may be considered heresy by >mac purists). It won't work. Somebody posted here (maybe a year ago now) about the key codes from the LK keyboard and said that he/she was interested in writing an OS X driver for the LK. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:45:36 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: X-windows: MAC server on VMS client Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > While I have managed to get VMS to pop X applications on the mac, there > are a few glitches. Has anyone worked through such glitches ? Would > appreciate any hints on to fix them, where to put x resource files on > the mac etc. > > Is it correct to state that on the mac, X fonts are synthetised from the > MAC's real fonts, or is tere still a conventioanl X font directory and > aliases file ? Probably the answer to that both of those is Yes. What you need to do for VMS (recent alpha/i64 versions) is to enable the TCP/IP font server, which is not enabled by default. Sorry, right now, I do not have time to look up the proper incantations, but they are in the decw$private_server_setup.com that is created from the .template file. If you are into using DECWindows, you probably have customized those files. > For instance, > > X Toolkit Warning: Cannot convert string > "-*-Menu-Medium-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-P-* > -ISO8859-1" to type FontStruct > > Can I just use Fontographer to convert the Menu font from VMS into a > foramt the MAC accepts ? Or is it just a question of copying that file > to the X directories on the mac ? Set up the TCP/IP font server on VMS. Configure your X11 server to look for that font server. Also, it may be that the X11 Server needs to know the physical geometry of the primary display. I now have Reflections/X, an older version running on VISTA, and surprisingly it is working better on VISTA than it did on XP. It still tends to lockup on occasion, and Mozilla tends to hang. It seems under XP, either I had something wrong, or Reflections remembered an incorrect font substitution, as I could not get some of the fonts right. Under Vista, I got the font server setup up and also made sure that Reflection X was configured for the correct screen size. And under XP, I could only display on the primary display, not on the secondary window. Under VISTA, I can display on the secondary window, so I can display my VMS sessions on the TV. >> Name: copyToClipboard >> Class: XmPushButtonGadget >> Illegal mnemonic character; Could not convert X KEYSYM to a keycode > > Is there a cookbook to translate those keycodes (there are a few) so > that when the VMS app startes on a MAC display, he X server on the MAC > understands those keycodes (and has them mapped to some key combination) ? See the DECWindows Motif release notes. There are properties that you can set globally or on a per application that can affect the interpretation of some of the keycodes. > My current mac keyboard only has 15 PF keys. Hoff's website has some > notes on mac keyboards used for X apps, but no mention on how to > syntehsise the PF16 to PF20 (ncluding the HELP and DO keys (PF15 and PF16) > > I've asked Santa for a new Apple keyboard. Maybe that will help solve > the problem. However, if I don't get it, should I consider buying an LK > style USB kevboard for a MAC (I know this may be considered heresy by > mac purists). > > I have a DEC LK french canadian keyboard layout that I had created with > ResEdit on classic, and was able to move this to the OS-X system folder > succesfully. This seems to only affect the characters generated by the > keys, not the actual keycodes (so no sure I could use that trick to > remap PF keys). > > > Also, the xhost file that is used is the one in the user's own directory > structure. And it seems to be zapped to some default everytime ytou > rebioot (or perhaps login). Does anyone know where the default file is > located ? Sorry, no MAC here yet. > And finally, what is the recommended way to have the mac trigger a > command on the VMS host ? > (eg: define the display to be the mac, then > create/term/detached/nologged) It would be nice to have that happen > automatically when I log-in. See the DECWindows stuff that I submitted to the Freeware. I think it is on the V5, but could be off +/-. It has a setup where you can RSH/REXEC in to VMS, and the command file will figure out how to display back, assuming that you are on display 0, and screen 0. Not sure I ever put in the logic for alternate displays and screens. I have been using a variant for years set up on filevue menus, so that to connect to a remove VMS system, all I had to do is click on the menu entry. The versions on the freeware assume a proxy. My latest versions have filevue cache the password for non-proxy logins. The versions on the freeware may need some tweaks for Multinet and current TCPIP services. They also allow you to have a filevue window displayed on any X11 server and launch DECTERMS or other applications on other VMS systems, and everyone will display on the expected VMS server. Regards, -John ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.676 ************************