INFO-VAX Tue, 22 Jan 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 44 Contents: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs /NOLOGGED Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs /NOLOGGED Re: F$UNIQUE library function Re: F$UNIQUE library function Re: Looking for tape copy program Re: The global village, the operating system version Re: The global village, the operating system version Re: The global village, the operating system version Re: The global village, the operating system version Re: The global village, the operating system version Re: This NG seems unusually quiet... VMS Systems Administrator/Programmer (CONTRACT JOB POSTING) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:04:25 +0000 (UTC) From: JKB Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: Le 21-01-2008, à propos de Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?, Bill Gunshannon écrivait dans comp.os.vms : > In article , > JKB writes: >> Le 21-01-2008, à propos de >> Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?, >> Bill Gunshannon écrivait dans comp.os.vms : >>> In article , >>> JKB writes: >>>> No. FreeVMS _was_ built over a 2.4.15 linux kernel. Only _was_. >>>> There are today a lot of differences between a linux kernel and >>>> FreeVMS. >>> >>> Really? What percent of the kernel has been re-written? My guess is >>> less than 1%. It's linux. And until you take the time and effort to >>> write an entire new kernel that implements the VMS paradigm as opposed >>> to the Unix paradigm it will continue to be nothing bu Linux with a >>> different user interface. >> >> You just prove that you've never seen FreeVMS sources. A lot of >> internal have been rewritten to implement VMS paradigms. > > I have as much reason and desire to see it as I do Linux kernel code. But > you failed to answer the question. What percentage of the code is origina > linux kernel and what percentage is unique to FreeVMS? You can check yourself. JKB -- Le cerveau, c'est un véritable scandale écologique. Il représente 2% de notre masse corporelle, mais disperse à lui seul 25% de l'énergie que nous consommons tous les jours. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:55:26 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >In article , JKB > writes: > >> Today, FreeVMS is _only_ a VMS clone. > >How long has the project been going on? What has it got to offer? Does >anyone outside the project take it seriously? > >> But it is the only chance to >> keep VMS alive for a long time. > >I'm not a lawyer, but presumably if it becomes viable HP can and will >take legal action against it. > Only if it infringes HP's IP. It is perfectly legal to reverse engineer VMS but it isn't legal to steal code. If they built a version with relatively new features like Galaxy they might have to be careful about patent infringement but VMS is old enough for that not to be a worry for all the key VMS features. I suppose one possibility if HP were really desperate to sink FreeVMS would be a look and feel lawsuite but the FreeVMS developers can probably make the command outputs for non-trivial commands eg Monitor , SHOW SYS etc just sufficiently different to avoid that. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 2008 13:19:17 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <5vm8qkF1mf7uoU1@mid.individual.net> In article , JKB writes: > Le 21-01-2008, à propos de > Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?, > Bill Gunshannon écrivait dans comp.os.vms : >> In article , >> JKB writes: >>> Le 21-01-2008, à propos de >>> Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?, >>> Bill Gunshannon écrivait dans comp.os.vms : >>>> In article , >>>> JKB writes: >>>>> No. FreeVMS _was_ built over a 2.4.15 linux kernel. Only _was_. >>>>> There are today a lot of differences between a linux kernel and >>>>> FreeVMS. >>>> >>>> Really? What percent of the kernel has been re-written? My guess is >>>> less than 1%. It's linux. And until you take the time and effort to >>>> write an entire new kernel that implements the VMS paradigm as opposed >>>> to the Unix paradigm it will continue to be nothing bu Linux with a >>>> different user interface. >>> >>> You just prove that you've never seen FreeVMS sources. A lot of >>> internal have been rewritten to implement VMS paradigms. >> >> I have as much reason and desire to see it as I do Linux kernel code. But >> you failed to answer the question. What percentage of the code is origina >> linux kernel and what percentage is unique to FreeVMS? > > You can check yourself. > What part of the first sentence did you not understand? Let me put it simply. You built "FreeVMS" on a linux. kernel Kerry is constantly preaching here that linux is buggy, unsecure and requires constant patching. Therefore, without some evidence to the contrary, your kernel and thus "FreeVMS" suffers from the same problems. And I, for one, am amazed that the VMS faithful aren't railing against this travesty of the VMS moniker. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:25:26 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > >In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >>In article , JKB >> writes: >> >>> Today, FreeVMS is _only_ a VMS clone. >> >>How long has the project been going on? What has it got to offer? Does >>anyone outside the project take it seriously? >> >>> But it is the only chance to >>> keep VMS alive for a long time. >> >>I'm not a lawyer, but presumably if it becomes viable HP can and will >>take legal action against it. >> >Only if it infringes HP's IP. It is perfectly legal to reverse engineer >VMS but it isn't legal to steal code. Do you think they'll bother? I know DEC didn't when a similar issue was brought to their attention! 1000s of lines of code verbatim! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:04:56 -0800 (PST) From: already5chosen@yahoo.com Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: <805544f3-dae7-40e4-bd1c-8c7b4117bc34@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Jan 22, 1:09 am, JF Mezei wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > OK. I've created a file called TEST.TXT and in it I typed: > > In fairness, TEST.TXT does not contain any formatting directives, so the > output depends entirely on the whim of the postscript output backend. > > I created a bona fide decwrite document of "Legal" size on my VAX. > > And I can confirm that the PS PAPER_SIZE option in the postscript write > optiosn file is overriden by the page size inside the DDIF document. > > HOWEVER... > > PS_OUTPUT LAYOUT OFF > > in the options file will cause the postscript backend to honour the PS > PAPER_SIZE directive. > > However, this will "dumb down" the DECwrite document's formatting quite > a bit. (for instance, it appears to remove page headers. > > example: > > http://www.vaxination.ca/test1.ps -> converted with LAYOUT ONhttp://www.vaxination.ca/test2.ps -> converted with LAYOUF OFF > > One possibility which I have not yet investigated would be to use the > ALLIN1 document formatter used to print documents. This would imply the > decwrite being converted to WPSPLUS and then to postcript, and during > the last phase, page layout information can be provided. > Can you tell me more about it? > Consider that when changing from legal (14") to letter (11"), not all > the text/graphics would fit inside the new page, and this would require > major reformatting. So changing page size like that is probably disabled. > Not my case. When I print these documents (to PS file) from the DECwrite the output is properly formatted for A4 > To the original poster: you might wish to do an inventory of the > features used in your decwrite documents and how much you expect to > conserve when converted. > Text, tables, pictures, headers, footers (although I probably can live without the later two). > Another option to consider might be the RTF output converter. You could > then import the documents onto modern platform word processors and > preserve some of the formatting. RTF output converter sounds very good. Where can I get one? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:06:37 -0800 (PST) From: already5chosen@yahoo.com Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: On Jan 22, 12:20 am, JF Mezei wrote: > already5cho...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Thanks. Tried that. > > The only files touched were cda$convert executives, input file, output > > file and font files. I didn't see anything resembling style files. > > If it didn't touch your options files, then it would explain why the > paper size option didn't kick in. > I carried the test without /option. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: already5chosen@yahoo.com Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: On related note, some of the documents contain embedded pictures in .bld format. Neither me nor my DECWrite knows how to render the thing. Any pointers? Yet another problem - there are embedded pictures in postscript format. DECWrite doesn't render them either. Unlike with .bld that's more of annoyance then the big problem since the pictures could be seen/printed by external tools, but still having them in proper place automatically would be much nicer. The picture files reside in the same directory with containing document. In both cases instead of a picture DECWrite draws the frame with cross and picture file name. Best regards, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:18:11 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: <4795df6a$0$3478$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote: >> major reformatting. So changing page size like that is probably disabled. >> > > Not my case. > When I print these documents (to PS file) from the DECwrite the output > is properly formatted for A4 In your original message: >The only remaining problem is that convert assumes A3 paper format. I >would very much prefer A4. When you open your document in decwrite, and you go to the page layout of the "page" menu, does it show A3 or A4 as paper size ? A3= 297 * 420 mm A4= 210 * 297 A single A3 page cannot fit onto a single A4 page. If your pages only use an area that fits in A4, DECwrite may be smart enough to fit the contents on an A4 instead of generating 4 sheets of A4 paper to contain a single A3. But when doing a CONVERT/DOCUMENT, the software can't know that and assumes you really want A3. This means that DECWRITE must be splitting a single A3 page into 2 A4 pages to fit the content. DEVwrite does have a "macro" facility. You could record all actions necessary to change the page layout and print the document to a postscript file, and define a PF key to do that. You could then just have to invoke decwrite once per document and use that PFkey to generate the .PS file. Another option would be to develop a postscript wrapper that would treat the .PS as an .EPS file. That wrapper would define the proper page size and then do the proper translate/scale so that the .EPS would be properly placed on an A4 page. > RTF output converter sounds very good. Where can I get one? http://www.hp.com/go/vms and look in the freeware. The CDA converters were included in it some time ago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:27:56 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: automated DECWrite doc to postscript Message-ID: <4795e1b3$0$15762$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> already5chosen@yahoo.com wrote: > The picture files reside in the same directory with containing > document. > In both cases instead of a picture DECWrite draws the frame with cross > and picture file name. Until and including 7.2, VMS had Display Postscript technology. This was removed along with a few other things and even tough decwrite is no longer developped, they issued a patch/interim version that removed the expectation of being able to display .EPS files. When you send them to a postscript printer, it should work. I am not sure what .BLD file are for though. They could be spreadsheets, or something else. When DEC started the compound document architecture, it had developped ahead of everyone else, a whole slew of GUI office applications which it quickly abandonned when Palmer started it slash and burn philosophy. When you generate the postscript, it should convert those files to postscript. If you then convert the postscript to PDF, the images will be visible. Do you need editable content for those documents ? Or just the ability to visualise them ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:39:42 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs /NOLOGGED Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > While we're on this topic, I have a procedure that I execute to create a > terminal that I use for debugging certain apps: > > $ CREATE/TERMINAL=DECTERM - > /NOPROCESS - > /DEFINE_LOGICAL=(TABLE=LNM$SYSTEM,DBG$INPUT,DBG$OUTPUT) - > /WINDOW_ATTRIBUTES=(TITLE="*** Debugger ***",ICON_NAME="DBG",- > BACKGROUND=TAN,X_POSITION={x},Y_POSITION={y}) > > I would like to have the terminal created in the same place on my screen > everytime I invoke this procedure but no matter what values I've used for > {x} and {y}, the terminal is placed at some random location. Can anybody > get the X_POSITION and Y_POSITION window attributes to work? > I've just tried to reproduce this, on Alpha 8.3 and using CDE (New Desktop), and successive terminal windows come up exactly on top of each other. Here's my version: $ CREATE/TERMINAL=DECTERM - /NOPROCESS - /DEFINE_LOGICAL=(TABLE=LNM$SYSTEM,DBG$INPUT,DBG$OUTPUT) - /WINDOW_ATTRIBUTES=(TITLE="*** Debugger ***",ICON_NAME="DBG",- BACKGROUND=TAN,X_POSITION=50,Y_POSITION=100) One thing I do notice is that after a window is created, the title reads "DECterm (c) Copyright..." until I click on it, when "*** DEbugger ***" is displayed. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:20:16 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs /NOLOGGED Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > >In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG >wrote: > >> While we're on this topic, I have a procedure that I execute to create a >> terminal that I use for debugging certain apps: >> >> $ CREATE/TERMINAL=DECTERM - >> /NOPROCESS - >> /DEFINE_LOGICAL=(TABLE=LNM$SYSTEM,DBG$INPUT,DBG$OUTPUT) - >> /WINDOW_ATTRIBUTES=(TITLE="*** Debugger ***",ICON_NAME="DBG",- >> BACKGROUND=TAN,X_POSITION={x},Y_POSITION={y}) >> >> I would like to have the terminal created in the same place on my screen >> everytime I invoke this procedure but no matter what values I've used for >> {x} and {y}, the terminal is placed at some random location. Can anybody >> get the X_POSITION and Y_POSITION window attributes to work? >> > >I've just tried to reproduce this, on Alpha 8.3 and using CDE (New >Desktop), and successive terminal windows come up exactly on top of each >other. > >Here's my version: > >$ CREATE/TERMINAL=DECTERM - > /NOPROCESS - > /DEFINE_LOGICAL=(TABLE=LNM$SYSTEM,DBG$INPUT,DBG$OUTPUT) - > /WINDOW_ATTRIBUTES=(TITLE="*** Debugger ***",ICON_NAME="DBG",- > BACKGROUND=TAN,X_POSITION=50,Y_POSITION=100) Still does the same here even using your values. Of course, this is on a box running V7.3-2. >One thing I do notice is that after a window is created, the title reads >"DECterm (c) Copyright..." until I click on it, when "*** DEbugger ***" >is displayed. After a brief "copyright" display period, the "*** Debugger ***" title should show in the title bar. Perhaps they've finally fixed the position issue and introduced another. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 2008 08:00:29 +0100 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function Message-ID: <4795a29d$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <47951d87$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >Desktop requirements and server requirements are too different. But people ignore this (or why did windows reach the datacenters - coming from the gameconsoles at home via the desktops in office - then?) and buy them (to reduce to only one desktop _and_ server platform)... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 2008 13:20:21 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function Message-ID: <5vm8slF1mf7uoU2@mid.individual.net> In article <4795a29d$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > In article <47951d87$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >>Desktop requirements and server requirements are too different. > > But people ignore this (or why did windows reach the datacenters - coming > from the gameconsoles at home via the desktops in office - then?) Surely you know the answer to this!! What is the one thing that VMS truly lacks? MARKETING!!!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 2008 07:26:44 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Looking for tape copy program Message-ID: In article <03d701c859ea$da8b4a00$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP>, "Peter Weaver" writes: > ----- Original Message ----- >> A few years back, I had a tape program that would allow me to do a >> tape to tape copy. The program would allow me to copy from 1 format to >> another (ie dlt to dat etc). I searched thru the freeware software >> archives and thru some of the sig tapes libraries, but cannot find the >> program. Does anybody recall the program? >> tks >> phil >> > > This one? Don't remember where I got it from but it worked when I needed to > copy a bunch a tapes for a customer that had to hand a bunch of tapes over > to a court. > > $ ty tapecopy.mar > .TITLE TapeCopy > .IDENT /GKF110990/ [...] As I read the code below, it will fail to copy the whole tape in the case of an ANSI labelled volume where at least one of the embedded files is empty. That is to say it treats back-to-back tape marks as end-of-volume even though ANSI labelled volumes do not always do so. That's not an egregious failing. If you actually wanted to copy an ANSI labelled mag tape, you'd typically just use: $ COPY tape1:*.* tape2:*.* and get proper handling for end-of-tape and multi-reel volume sets for free. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:31:44 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: The global village, the operating system version Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > > For instance, the french songs from Céline Dion never made it out of > Québec, but her english songs (unfortunatly) did. That's certainly a matter of personal taste. Personally, I wish she never had made it outside of Quebec, be it in English or French :-) > Similarly, the > norvegian group A-Ha didn't succeed by signing in norwegian, their > global success was due to english songs. Hmm, could it be that few people outside Norway speak Norwegian ? > But once a culture succeeds in > injecting some of its own into the global village, it becomes healthier > because it becomes mainstream inside that culture and also known outside > of that local culture. The question is how large that injection really is. Of course English is the lingua franca of the global village, but this may have to do with the fact that English is a rather simple language at the entry level. One can communicate on a very basic level without having to worry too much about gender. flexions, cases etc. OTOH, most people still prefer their native language. > Now back to operating systems. > > It seems to me that there is starting to be a similar phenomenon forming > with regards to OS platforms. There is a global culture appearing where > certain applications have formed a global culture. Adobe PDF, MySQL, > Perl, Phython, Apache, Thunderbird, etc etc. That culture would be Unix. Most of today's web technology behind the scenes was developed on and for Unix. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:10:03 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: The global village, the operating system version Message-ID: In article <4795541b$0$15779$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > >Marshall McCluhen had discussed the concept of the global village. A lot >of it is happening but with a twist: english language is the lowest >common denominator, and only cultural contributiosn in english (with a >few exceptions) are adopted and globally distributed around the world. > >For instance, the french songs from Céline Dion never made it out of >Québec, but her english songs (unfortunatly) did. Similarly, the >norvegian group A-Ha didn't succeed by signing in norwegian, their >global success was due to english songs. But once a culture succeeds in >injecting some of its own into the global village, it becomes healthier >because it becomes mainstream inside that culture and also known outside >of that local culture. On the otherhand, several Italian progressive bands where quite successful and sang in Italian. Perhaps, the A-Ha and the Celion Dion aren't all that good so people need to hear them in a language they'd understand. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:14:51 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: The global village, the operating system version Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > >JF Mezei schrieb: > >> >> For instance, the french songs from Céline Dion never made it out of >> Québec, but her english songs (unfortunatly) did. > >That's certainly a matter of personal taste. >Personally, I wish she never had made it outside of Quebec, >be it in English or French :-) ;) >> Similarly, the >> norvegian group A-Ha didn't succeed by signing in norwegian, their >> global success was due to english songs. > >Hmm, could it be that few people outside Norway speak Norwegian ? I know a Norwegian band. They speak English and they speak it well. Much better than some of the people here in the state of my present detention. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 2008 13:44:29 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: The global village, the operating system version Message-ID: <5vma9sF1mnf45U1@mid.individual.net> In article <4795541b$0$15779$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Marshall McCluhen had discussed the concept of the global village. A lot > of it is happening but with a twist: english language is the lowest > common denominator, and only cultural contributiosn in english (with a > few exceptions) are adopted and globally distributed around the world. But, who's choice is that? Read on. > > For instance, the french songs from Céline Dion never made it out of > Québec, but her english songs (unfortunatly) did. That was the choice of her and her publisher. I, for one, listen to her French as well as her English music and lament the fact that it is so hard to find. But, read on. > Similarly, the > norvegian group A-Ha didn't succeed by signing in norwegian, their > global success was due to english songs. But once a culture succeeds in > injecting some of its own into the global village, it becomes healthier > because it becomes mainstream inside that culture and also known outside > of that local culture. But who makes the choice to keep the global culture English (actually American) based? Let me relate a little personal experience to you. I lived in Germany in the early 70's and again in the late 70's I greatly enjoyed the culture. Enough so that I became fluent in German. (During my last trip over there last January I was told by a number of the Germans I dealt with that I spoke German like a native. I think they were being flattering, but I am pretty good.) A number of years ago, when the INTERENT was just taking off I found that most of the German Regional Radio Systems had taken to INTERNET broadcasting so I went looking for places where I could listen to the music I had so grown to love. Peter Alexander, Mirielle Mathieu, Heino, etc. Now, all of the Regional Systems have multiple stations offering a selection of genre. Imagine my surprise to find that the first (and in most cases the only) genre offered were the stations that played American garbage. Not one of them offered German Pop Music. I actually sent an email to the German Ministry of Culture asking why they did not use the INTERNET to export their culture, which I considered a worthwhile endeavor, rather than just being another "Little America". The answer was that they did not see where anyone would be interested in things like their music or other facets of their culture and offered what everyone wanted. So much for the supposed idea of American cultural imperialism. The story does have a happy ending, though. The INTERNET eventually got big enough and cheap enough that they now offer all their genre and I can listen to what I enjoy. I should also mention that during this time when Germany chose to just parrot American radio Austria was very successful at offering the genre I was interested in. > > Now back to operating systems. > > It seems to me that there is starting to be a similar phenomenon forming > with regards to OS platforms. There is a global culture appearing where > certain applications have formed a global culture. Adobe PDF, MySQL, > Perl, Phython, Apache, Thunderbird, etc etc. Those applications are > written with a certain philosophy that makes it easier to port to > mainstream operating systems. If you're not a target for those "global" > applications, your OS just won't make it. If it requires significant > engineering to port to another OS, that OS won't be able to keep up > withnew versions, improvements and patches unless its owner puts in the > significant resources needed to keep up. Seems to me that the same rules apply. Why are people flocking to linux, the, notably, most inferior of all the OS offerings? Although, I do have to admit that your list is somewhat in error. The only OS I know of that has a problem with ports or updated versions of any of the applications which you mention above is VMS. All current versions of Unix and Windows have current full function versions of all of them. > > > And the global culture evolves quickly with new "fads" coming up (like > Ruby and whatever other new fads exist out there). > > So in the end, only operating systems that naturally support the > building tools and middleware to EASILY build all the new apps/fads will > survive. Which seems to be everything but VMS. Hmmmm...... Is there a message in there somewhere? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:11:38 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: The global village, the operating system version Message-ID: <4795fa9a$0$22102$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Seems to me that the same rules apply. Why are people flocking to linux, > the, notably, most inferior of all the OS offerings? Although, I do have > to admit that your list is somewhat in error. The only OS I know of that > has a problem with ports or updated versions of any of the applications > which you mention above is VMS. All current versions of Unix and Windows > have current full function versions of all of them. But will Adobe continue to bother with HP-UX version of its software ? (and AIX for that matter). For Linux, they don't seem to be producing for anything but 8086 (pentium III) versions of Linux. Not for Power, not for Alpha or that IA64 thing. So in the end, only a number of platforms will survive, the ones that have a sufficient growth/users and of course marketing. And the less software is ported to other platforms, the quicker they will be eclipsed. What is interesting is that I am not sure that ports of the software to Windows are really that much easier than ports to VMS would be. But because Windows has the installed base and marketing, it gets done. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:23:24 -0600 From: Slor Subject: Re: This NG seems unusually quiet... Message-ID: Despite all prevention efforts, David J Dachtera wrote in news:47952363.A3A9C594@spam.comcast.net: > Eh, ... one way or another, this group is a fair bit "quieter" than it > has been. > > I expect there's many possibilities. Among them: > > - Lay-offs and other attrition in the "membership" > > - Those who remain are now more resigned to VMS's fate > > David J Dachtera > DJE Systems > Hey David - I recognized the company name in your sig and just wanted to give a quick thanks for your write-up on OpenVMS CD-ROM burning from back in the day. The info on successfully burning raw images using other platforms was instrumental in bringing my Alpha back to life. Not hearing much about VMS in my professional life or having any previous idea about the current state of things, I was actually expecting LESS traffic when I found this newsgroup. I'm enjoying my re- integration into the OS, so I hope to see things pick back up to the levels you all are used to! -- James http://www.e-host-direct.com Reliable web hosting from $12/year. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:02:17 -0800 (PST) From: IanMiller Subject: VMS Systems Administrator/Programmer (CONTRACT JOB POSTING) Message-ID: An experienced VMS person is wanted for a year long project in Cincinnati, Ohio. http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=08/01/21/4006158 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.044 ************************