INFO-VAX Wed, 23 Jan 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 46 Contents: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? GNV 2.1 mount points question In Stock Re: In Stock Re: In Stock Re: marine computer gearheads - Trying to identify possible VAX 780. Re: Mystery of X-windows colours/resources Re: Mystery of X-windows colours/resources Open sourcing of VMS: bad precedent set Re: Open sourcing of VMS: bad precedent set Re: Positioning xterm windows from DCL (was Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs / Re: The global village, the operating system version VMS Hobbyist licenses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:39:16 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >> >>In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >>>In article , JKB >>> writes: >>> >>>> Today, FreeVMS is _only_ a VMS clone. >>> >>>How long has the project been going on? What has it got to offer? Does >>>anyone outside the project take it seriously? >>> >>>> But it is the only chance to >>>> keep VMS alive for a long time. >>> >>>I'm not a lawyer, but presumably if it becomes viable HP can and will >>>take legal action against it. >>> >>Only if it infringes HP's IP. It is perfectly legal to reverse engineer >>VMS but it isn't legal to steal code. > >Do you think they'll bother? I know DEC didn't when a similar issue was >brought to their attention! 1000s of lines of code verbatim! > If HP tries to sue one of the big boys then there will be a long drawn out extremely expensive lawsuite which will drag on for a long time and will sour any business relationships that HP has with the other company. Hence in many cases HP might take the view that it isn't worth while taking legal action. On the otherhand if the offending party is a small group of open source developers with little financial power to sustain themselves through a lawsuite and with no multimillion business relationship with HP then why on earth would HP not sue ? David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >-- >VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:56:53 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <479747A5.3040403@comcast.net> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >>In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >>> >>>In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >>> >>>>In article , JKB >>>> writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Today, FreeVMS is _only_ a VMS clone. >>>> >>>>How long has the project been going on? What has it got to offer? Does >>>>anyone outside the project take it seriously? >>>> >>>> >>>>>But it is the only chance to >>>>> keep VMS alive for a long time. >>>> >>>>I'm not a lawyer, but presumably if it becomes viable HP can and will >>>>take legal action against it. >>>> >>> >>>Only if it infringes HP's IP. It is perfectly legal to reverse engineer >>>VMS but it isn't legal to steal code. >> >>Do you think they'll bother? I know DEC didn't when a similar issue was >>brought to their attention! 1000s of lines of code verbatim! >> > > If HP tries to sue one of the big boys then there will be a long drawn out > extremely expensive lawsuite which will drag on for a long time and will sour > any business relationships that HP has with the other company. > Hence in many cases HP might take the view that it isn't worth while taking > legal action. > On the otherhand if the offending party is a small group of open source > developers with little financial power to sustain themselves through a lawsuite > and with no multimillion business relationship with HP then why on earth would > HP not sue ? Because nobody at HP knows that HP owns VMS? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:28:03 +0100 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <47974efc$0$25498$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 23-1-2008 14:56 Richard B. Gilbert wrote... > Because nobody at HP knows that HP owns VMS? Probably. I know (and I know that a number of current HP ex-Digital employees also know) of several instances where OpenVMS on SIMH is used in a production environment, SIMH on Linux having replaced MicroVAX 3100 systems or such. This is in violation of the SIMH license (Bob S. should care, HP shouldn't), but also in violation of the OpenVMS license. HP doesn't sue these (sometime largish) customers. The operational customer contacts may or may not have reported this to upper management, but there certainly is no "top-down awareness" of these fine issues. Oh well, back to looking at the orders on my SIMH / VMS / WASD based webshop. Oops... -- Wilm Boerhout Zwolle, NL remove OLD PAINT from return address to reply ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:49:00 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article <47974efc$0$25498$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout writes: >on 23-1-2008 14:56 Richard B. Gilbert wrote... > >> Because nobody at HP knows that HP owns VMS? > >Probably. I know (and I know that a number of current HP ex-Digital >employees also know) of several instances where OpenVMS on SIMH is used >in a production environment, SIMH on Linux having replaced MicroVAX 3100 >systems or such. This is in violation of the SIMH license (Bob S. should >care, HP shouldn't), but also in violation of the OpenVMS license. So long as they have purchased a VMS base license for whatever level of system SIMH emulates is this actually against the OpenVMS license ? (I'm ignoring the legality of using SIMH in a production environment since as you say this isn't HP's problem). I think Charon-Vax/Charon-AXP is the only emulator which HP supports but that doesn't make using another emulator illegal just unsupported. Even the fact that you need to purchase extension licenses to use CHARON-VAX etc doesn't of itself imply that using other emulators is illegal just that you need to comply with that requirement for running on a supported emulation. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >HP >doesn't sue these (sometime largish) customers. The operational customer >contacts may or may not have reported this to upper management, but >there certainly is no "top-down awareness" of these fine issues. > >Oh well, back to looking at the orders on my SIMH / VMS / WASD based >webshop. Oops... > >-- >Wilm Boerhout Zwolle, NL >remove OLD PAINT from return address to reply ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 2008 17:17:22 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <5vpb52F1n7nl2U1@mid.individual.net> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article <47974efc$0$25498$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout writes: >>on 23-1-2008 14:56 Richard B. Gilbert wrote... >> >>> Because nobody at HP knows that HP owns VMS? >> >>Probably. I know (and I know that a number of current HP ex-Digital >>employees also know) of several instances where OpenVMS on SIMH is used >>in a production environment, SIMH on Linux having replaced MicroVAX 3100 >>systems or such. This is in violation of the SIMH license (Bob S. should >>care, HP shouldn't), but also in violation of the OpenVMS license. > > So long as they have purchased a VMS base license for whatever level of system > SIMH emulates is this actually against the OpenVMS license ? > (I'm ignoring the legality of using SIMH in a production environment since as > you say this isn't HP's problem). > > I think Charon-Vax/Charon-AXP is the only emulator which HP supports but > that doesn't make using another emulator illegal just unsupported. > Even the fact that you need to purchase extension licenses to use CHARON-VAX etc > doesn't of itself imply that using other emulators is illegal just that you > need to comply with that requirement for running on a supported emulation. > Isn't VMS licensed to specific processors? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:43:44 +0100 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <47978aeb$0$25501$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 23-1-2008 18:17 Bill Gunshannon wrote... > Isn't VMS licensed to specific processors? The various OpenVMS licenses, as stated in the SPD (nowadays 54 pages, phew!), grants the user the right to use OpenVMS on a supported VAX (or Alpha, Itanium) processor. The SPD enumerates the supported processors. SIMH and CHARON-xxx are not on that list. For SRI's CHARON a separate transfer license is provided, that grant you the right to transfer an existing valid license to the emulated VAX or Alpha. Transfer means: run it on the new (emulated) platform, and not anymore on the old (non-emulated) platform. For SIMH no such facility is provided. IMO, this makes it illegal (e.g. against the letter and intent of the OpenVMS license as written in the SPD) to run OpenVMS on SIMH (commercial purposes or not) using a previously purchased license. The hobbyist license, of course, makes it valid to run VMS on both SIMH and CHARON for non-commercial purposes. Again, I doubt whether anyone within HP could have written this... or cares that I can, and did... -- Wilm Boerhout Zwolle, NL remove OLD PAINT from return address to reply ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:34:35 -0800 (PST) From: Pierre Subject: GNV 2.1 mount points question Message-ID: hi, in all the examples I can find, the "mount" command uses a directory under psx$root:[mnt] as mount point resulting in posix filename looking like "/mnt/..." for symbolic links is it mandatory to use directory under psx$root:[mnt] or mayI use directory at the same level as mnt.dir in order to not have the /mnt/" as a prefix of each and every posix filename for symbolic links ? TIA, Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:49:01 -0500 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: In Stock Message-ID: <13peofar61nou59@news.supernews.com> We have a large quantity of DEC VT525's. These are the base units (look like the Multia) They have multiple I/O ports - RS232 and MMJ All you need is a PS/2 keyboard (or LK411/LK461) and a VGA Monitor Price each is $179 + Shipping 1 yr warranty David -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 1207 East Highway 80 Suite D Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 912 786 8502 x201 Fax: 912 786 8505 E: dturner@islandco.com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:40:42 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: In Stock Message-ID: In article <13peofar61nou59@news.supernews.com>, "David Turner, Island Computers" writes: > > >We have a large quantity of DEC VT525's. I have a VT525. A very nice terminal! >These are the base units (look like the Multia) >They have multiple I/O ports - RS232 and MMJ >All you need is a PS/2 keyboard (or LK411/LK461) and a VGA Monitor >Price each is $179 + Shipping Hmmm... -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:08:56 -0500 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: In Stock Message-ID: <13pf0lmror2rl65@news.supernews.com> Well, if you have the Monitor and Keyboard it ain't so bad. Granted the complete kit does seem a little high but we aren't making much DT -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 1207 East Highway 80 Suite D Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 912 786 8502 x201 Fax: 912 786 8505 E: dturner@islandco.com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. wrote in message news:e6Klj.3$PV7.2@newsfe09.lga... > In article <13peofar61nou59@news.supernews.com>, "David Turner, Island > Computers" writes: >> >> >>We have a large quantity of DEC VT525's. > > I have a VT525. A very nice terminal! > > >>These are the base units (look like the Multia) >>They have multiple I/O ports - RS232 and MMJ >>All you need is a PS/2 keyboard (or LK411/LK461) and a VGA Monitor >>Price each is $179 + Shipping > > Hmmm... > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:35:13 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: marine computer gearheads - Trying to identify possible VAX 780. Message-ID: bob.birch@gmail.com wrote: > I'm attending an excellent 2 day marine diesel engine > workshop on Yanmar engines (Trawlerfest.com) and > have a few questions for any marine computer > gearheads: > > 1. One of the handouts show a network of service > computers with the capability of monitoring engine > data in the field, repair shop and production > floor. All the data is fed back to a server that looks > like a older Vax 780+. Yanmar builds the engines > in Adairsville, Georgia, Netherlands and Osaka. > Anyone know if it's a Vax server. Can you provide a URL to a copy of the handout on their website or another website? There are a lot of links on the URL you gave. > 2. The newer 6 cyl Yanmars have a Electronic Control > System (ECS), controlling/monitoring engine with a > CAN Bus. The bus looks like NMEA 2000 or RS422 > or Ethernet. Not sure. > Anyone know what it is? A link to the picture would also probably be needed. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:21:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Mystery of X-windows colours/resources Message-ID: <47975be1$0$15769$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Some progress: You can create a resource file on the Mac (for instance .X11defaults ) and then use: xrdb .X11defaults and this dynamically reads the resources and updates the X11 server's dynamic database. The next application that pops a window on the MAC will then have those resources available to it. *background: White works. (gets rid of the "default" blue.) However, I am unable to get Motif resources to change. For instance: *menu*background: Grey or *MenuBar*background: Grey is ignored and the menu bar insists on having same background as the whole window. Similarly, I am unable to change attributes for the ScrollBar . The Mac doesn't come with Motif. Since those resources I create are on ther Mac and read by the Xserver software, does this mean that the Xserver will ignore those resources since it doesn't know about Motif and will only understand raw X/Xt resources ? Or is the X server expected to read in all/any resource and feed them back to the remote application who will then parse them and build the necessary primitive X drawing commands with those colours ? AKA: are those resources interpreted by the Mac or sent back to the VMS host to be interpreted there by the application ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:50:04 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Mystery of X-windows colours/resources Message-ID: In article <47975be1$0$15769$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > >Some progress: > >You can create a resource file on the Mac (for instance .X11defaults ) >and then use: > >xrdb .X11defaults and this dynamically reads the resources and updates >the X11 server's dynamic database. The next application that pops a >window on the MAC will then have those resources available to it. > >*background: White works. (gets rid of the "default" blue.) > >However, I am unable to get Motif resources to change. > >For instance: > *menu*background: Grey >or > *MenuBar*background: Grey > >is ignored and the menu bar insists on having same background as the >whole window. > >Similarly, I am unable to change attributes for the ScrollBar . > >The Mac doesn't come with Motif. Since those resources I create are on >ther Mac and read by the Xserver software, does this mean that the >Xserver will ignore those resources since it doesn't know about Motif >and will only understand raw X/Xt resources ? Which is why I will not part with the PowerBook and eXodus. I only wish that the PowerLan-USA people would see to it that a build on an intel Mac were made available. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:12:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Open sourcing of VMS: bad precedent set Message-ID: <4797141b$0$4360$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> The supporters of OS/2 had petitioned IBM to make OS/2 open source. IBM decided to decline the offer, offering a number of various reasons/excuses to not do so. (some speculate there are some proprietary Microsoft code in there). My guess is that since VMS is in the same boat as OS/2 (nearlty abandonned proprietary OS), perhaps we should push for individual products being open sourced. (I would start with DECterm and TPU. ) DECterm, being a proper implementation of the VT standards with most of the VT bells and whistles (except tracing of control characters) would be a great donation to the open source world, replacing Xterm which is really really basic. TPU might not displace much in terms of EMACS users, but it would enable VMS customers to feel far mroe comfortable with newer platforms, especially since it has both character cell and GUI versions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:12:01 -0000 From: Thomas Dickey Subject: Re: Open sourcing of VMS: bad precedent set Message-ID: <13pebohbnlnhl0d@corp.supernews.com> JF Mezei wrote: > DECterm, being a proper implementation of the VT standards with most of > the VT bells and whistles (except tracing of control characters) would > be a great donation to the open source world, replacing Xterm which is > really really basic. too little, too late - DECterm doesn't support UTF-8 -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:51:47 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Positioning xterm windows from DCL (was Re: CREATE/TERMINAL /NOPROCESS vs / Message-ID: In article <47969184.3010708@triumf.ca>, Fred Bach writes: > > > > Been there, seen that. > Here's an excerpt from letter I wrote to my colleagues in 2006: > > This may be a revelation to more than just myself, so I'm sending it > around to anybody who might create DECTERM windows on an XTERM. > > It appeared that my DCL programs for some time now had no control > over where I could place the DECTERMS created with CREATE/TERMINAL . > > No matter where I specified the X_POSITION and Y_POSITION to be, > each new window would stack a little down and to the right of the > last window until one edge of a window reached some limit or boundary, > and then subsequent windows created with CREATE/TERMINAL would start in > a totally different place. The window manager was trying to make sure > that the whole window fitted onto the screen. All this happened with > the identical CREATE/TERMINAL command where the x and Y position, and the > rows and columns were specified all exactly the same. > > So I hunted up DECWINDOWS on GOOGLE, and found a DecWindows/Motif manual: > > http://www.tru64unix.compaq.com/docs/base_doc/DOCUMENTATION/V40F_HTML/AQ917BTE/TITLE.HTM > > and it said this (for UNIX machines but what the heck...): > > >! This determines default placement of window when there is >! no specification by the user >! Set to true to have Mwm stagger the positions of a window >! from the top left corner >Mwm*clientAutoPlace: False > > > So I added the above to my DECW$MWM.DAT file (comments and all) > and now CREATE/TERMINAL places the window correctly on my screen. > > It's a shame there isn't some online DCL HELP command to list > and *explain* all these DecWindows 'resource' items. > > Cheers, > > .. Fred .. Thanks Fred but it doesn't seem to make any difference here. Your post prompted me to look through the DT resource files too but I don't see anything that looks as if it will affect the placement in those either. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:46:31 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: The global village, the operating system version Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <4795541b$0$15779$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei > writes: > > > > > >Marshall McCluhen had discussed the concept of the global village. A lot > >of it is happening but with a twist: english language is the lowest > >common denominator, and only cultural contributiosn in english (with a > >few exceptions) are adopted and globally distributed around the world. > > > >For instance, the french songs from Céline Dion never made it out of > >Québec, but her english songs (unfortunatly) did. Similarly, the > >norvegian group A-Ha didn't succeed by signing in norwegian, their > >global success was due to english songs. But once a culture succeeds in > >injecting some of its own into the global village, it becomes healthier > >because it becomes mainstream inside that culture and also known outside > >of that local culture. > > On the otherhand, several Italian progressive bands where quite successful > and sang in Italian. Perhaps, the A-Ha and the Celion Dion aren't all that > good so people need to hear them in a language they'd understand. Living where I do, I used to really enjoy listening to German, French and Italian songs (and their versions of English songs) on the radio as I was driving to and from work, and at home too. Unfortunately since about 2002 we only seem to get the playlist crud that you could listen to anywhere in the world. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:16:15 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: VMS Hobbyist licenses Message-ID: In article , Sue wrote: > On Jan 21, 5:32 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > We've seen you in front of crowds,Sue. You've got your own special > > gift, and more heart than 10 Steve Jobs's put together. > > > > ...better lookin', too! ;-) > > > ok now I am Way flattered. > > By the way folks I have a plaque that was given to me from the > original ground breaking of ZKO. I think it will make a nice Digital > (pun intended) picture. > Glad to catch you Sue. Today I had a brief power cut and realized (Oops a little late) that it was the time of year to renew my Hobbyist licenses. I duly visited http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/register.php and the process was absolutely painless. Please pass my personal thanks on to those who not only Hobbyist licenses possible in the first place, but continue to do so. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.046 ************************