INFO-VAX	Thu, 24 Jan 2008	Volume 2008 : Issue 48

   Contents:
Re: "file locked by another user" mystery
Re: "file locked by another user" mystery
.MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Re: In Stock
M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w...
Re: Open sourcing of VMS: bad precedent set
Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 08:16:01 -0600
From: briggs@encompasserve.org
Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery
Message-ID: <k4bu66SNGDcL@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <fn665n$tbm$1@aioe.org>, Fred Bach <bach@triumf.ca> writes:
[snip good advice about defensive programming:
 -- always close before you open.  Just in case.
 -- always close before you exit.  On _all_ exit paths.]

>    $ON ERROR THEN GO TO EXIT
>    $ON SEVERE_ERROR THEN GOTO EXIT
>    $ON CONTROL_Y THEN GO TO EXIT
>    $ON WARNING THEN CONTINUE

This code will not do what it appears to do.  The ON ERROR
and ON SEVERE_ERROR statements will not work.

You can have only one "ON <severity> THEN" active at a time.  If
you have an "ON SEVERE_ERROR THEN" handler active then setting up
an "ON WARNING THEN" handler will cancel the "ON SEVERE_ERROR THEN"
handler.  And vice versa.

The ON CONTROL_Y handler is not affected by this restriction.  You can
have an ON CONTROL_Y handler active along with an ON <severity> handler.

But only one of each.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:33:12 -0500
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery
Message-ID: <4798BDC8.7030109@comcast.net>

briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:
> In article <fn665n$tbm$1@aioe.org>, Fred Bach <bach@triumf.ca> writes:
> [snip good advice about defensive programming:
>  -- always close before you open.  Just in case.
>  -- always close before you exit.  On _all_ exit paths.]
> 
<snip>

Ideally, there should be only ONE exit!  Having multiple exits adds a 
high risk of something not being properly cleaned up!  If you must take 
an "asynchronous exit"*, you set EXIT_STATUS to a value that says 
"something horrible happened" and branch to your exit code which should 
do an "EXIT 'EXIT_STATUS'" after any necessary cleanup.

Just because it works the way you wrote it doesn't mean that some future 
maintainer will not break it!  Write it so that someone who is nowhere 
near as good as you are can modify it safely!


* An "asynchronous exit" is when the bouncer doesn't bother to open the 
door before throwing you out!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:54:39 GMT
From: VMS is Virus Free <vms@virusfree.org>
Subject: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <q8ghp3dptj9hoebalrr4v547qonlcct5nq@4ax.com>

We applied the VMS732_UPDATE V14.0 this past weekend. It has caused
some problems among our developers trying to do their links: the .EXE
produced by the LINK includes a bunch of files that the old .EXE did
not have. For example:

$1$DGA2301:[STARLETOLB.SRC]AMAC_FLT_DATA.MAR;1

We do not have a $1$DGA2301 device on any of our systems. That was
oddity #1.

Oddity #2 is that STARLET.OLB now has the above file as one of its
modules. A .MAR source file in an object library? That just doesn't
seem right.

The effect we see is that our programs, which worked perfectly fine
before this patch, are now getting input conversion errors on reads of
floating point numbers.

Any idea of what's going on?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:10:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Volker Halle <volker_halle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <6c0bec56-f1c3-45b3-aef3-d5bf67fdfebc@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>

Having a module named AMAC_FLT_DATA.MAR in STARLET.OLB seems to be
normal (I do also have this on an OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 system).

There are problems with the library update history records in recent
patches ( see http://forums12.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1183715
), but these should only cause errors when deleting modules.

Did the installation of the upgrade complete without any error
messages ?

Volker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:20:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Volker Halle <volker_halle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <383b6bfa-7af3-4f20-bf3e-7b67a1599fef@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>

VMS732_UPDATE-V1400 includes VMS732_STARLETOLB-V0100, which seems to
replace all the AMAC* modules in STARLET.OLB. Did you have that
individual patch installed before ?

You will have to provide more details about the error and possibly
provide old and new .MAP files for comparision.

Volker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:51:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Volker Halle <volker_halle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <ab9b3699-730e-4632-a851-127f75ea41f5@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>

Where does this string show up ?

$1$DGA2301:[STARLETOLB.SRC]AMAC_FLT_DATA.MAR;1

Volker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:15:57 GMT
From: VMS is Virus Free <vms@virusfree.org>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <32lhp31mmqpgkcpov90kbsie88ahip02pb@4ax.com>

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:51:09 -0800 (PST), Volker Halle
<volker_halle@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Where does this string show up ?
>
>$1$DGA2301:[STARLETOLB.SRC]AMAC_FLT_DATA.MAR;1
>
>Volker.

When the program that worked before didn't work after the relink, one
of our developers downloaded a utility that would dump all the
symbols, modules and such out of the debugger's memory. This is were
the $1$DGA2301 reference came from.

To check, we extracted the module out of STARLET then did a DUMP/ASCII
of the extracted module. The references are within the extracted
module. 

We checked a VMS V8.3 system. The same file is in its STARLET.OLB with
a version of V229. It has the same module names in it BUT it does not
have the $1$DGA2301:[STARTLETOLB.SRC] prefixed to the object names.
I'm thinking this patch kit was not built just right.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:18:48 GMT
From: VMS is Virus Free <vms@virusfree.org>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <qelhp3lnbqo29p5dvf51teeuvm9s2if7kl@4ax.com>

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:10:14 -0800 (PST), Volker Halle
<volker_halle@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Having a module named AMAC_FLT_DATA.MAR in STARLET.OLB seems to be
>normal (I do also have this on an OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 system).
>
>There are problems with the library update history records in recent
>patches ( see http://forums12.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1183715
>), but these should only cause errors when deleting modules.
>
>Did the installation of the upgrade complete without any error
>messages ?
>
>Volker.

The installation completed correctly and normally. The PROD SHOW
HISTORY shows that the V14 patch was successfully installed.

We are going to extract this same module out of our backup copy of
STARLET.OLB and replace it, relink, and see if the problem goes away.

While we are still checking, this sure seems like a bad kit.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:25:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Volker Halle <volker_halle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <5c93a1d3-0432-418c-850c-ef5b842c53a8@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>

If you run ANAL/OBJ on the extracted object file for
AMAC_FLT_DATA.MAR, you will see, that this string results from a
debugger information record, so this module seems to have been
complied with /DEBUG - there is nothing wrong with that !

6.  DEBUGGER INFORMATION (EOBJ$C_EDBG), 77 bytes

        1)  ETIR$C_STO_IMM (61, %X'3D')
                Store Immediate, 65 bytes:
                  7  6  5  4  3  2  1  0          01234567
                ------------------------          --------
                 9B 00 3B 10 00 9B 00 04|  0000  |.....;..|
                 FD 7C 00 01 00 36 01 00|  0008  |..6...|=FD|
                 00 02 00 A1 88 5F 3C 79|  0010  |y<_.=A1...|
                 31 24 22 02 00 56 00 00|  0018  |..V.."$1|
                 31 30 33 32 41 47 44 24|  0020  |$DGA2301|
                 42 49 4C 53 59 53 5B 3A|  0028  |:[SYSLIB|
                 45 44 5F 48 43 52 41 5D|  0030  |]ARCH_DE|
                 31 3B 52 41 4D 2E 53 46|  0038  |FS.MAR;1|
                                      00|  0040  |.       |

You will further need to provide more evidence on what's failing in
your programs.

Volker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:39:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Volker Halle <volker_halle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: .MAR file in STARLET.OLB after VMS732_UPDATE V14.0
Message-ID: <8741a74e-c0f2-46e7-b97a-b48ddde1b70d@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>

> We are going to extract this same module out of our backup copy of
> STARLET.OLB and replace it, relink, and see if the problem goes away.

Please be careful. More than this one module has been replaced in
STARLET.OLB by the VMS732_STARLETOLB-V0100 patch, i.e. most likely all
modules which are named AMAC* !

BTW, I included a different EOBJ$C_EDBG above, but the one you were
looking for is just the next one. But it also shows the $1$DGA2301:
device name, which is most likely a device on the OpenVMS engineering
cluster.

Volker.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 07:46:56 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Message-ID: <BgQSvMtL4lo9@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <4794B925.5030903@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
> Yeah!  I think I have microfiche source listings for VMS V4.x somewhere. 
> They can be a big help if you are trying to interpret a crash dump of 
> the version you have AND you are familiar with VMS Internals.  But, VMS 
> doesn't crash all that often, and the crash dump weenies in Colorado are 
> a hell of lot better at it than I am.   (I saw, at most, two crash dumps 
> per year and the dump weenies do three or four per day!)

   I learned VMS inside out reading crash dumps on systems with lots of
   custom hardware attached.  Trying to extract what I could about
   hardware failures means getting to know the software, especially the
   I/O subsystem.  Oh, yes, sometimes those custom device drivers
   were at fault.

   And then there were the patches and user written system services we 
   maintained over VMS 2, 3, and 4 to allow us to do things VMS didn't 
   believe in.

   Lots of fun when a faulty backplane in an 11/780 would occaisionally
   read a user's EDT buffer when the CPU wanted a kernel page.  You'ld
   be surprised how many ASCII strings look like an illegal CHMK (not an
   error the kernel will tollerate).

   But it was all useful when I got that somewhat obscene trophy from
   Bruce Ellis at his 1989 VMS trivia contest.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 07:49:18 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Message-ID: <a3mnuHajfM7F@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <5vkkd3F1lpt8bU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>  
> 
> What was it that Bob Koehler said?  "If it walks like a duck and quacks
> like a duck."

   If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, I will not expect
   it to ship under the name FreeVMS.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 07:50:47 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Message-ID: <R4ppVfkdUr+Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <5vkkqbF1lpt8bU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> I disagree.  There are many embeded systems that have no utilities that
> are an OS just the same.  The stuff on top of the kernel are applications,
> wether they come from the OS vendor or from someone outside.

   I use those embedded OS every day.  They generally do have utilities,
   though clearly not the same as the ones used on timesharing
   platforms.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 07:58:31 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Message-ID: <tq$sMeGJqBEq@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <5vm8qkF1mf7uoU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> Let me put it simply.  You built "FreeVMS" on a linux. kernel  Kerry
> is constantly preaching here that linux is buggy, unsecure and requires
> constant patching.  Therefore, without some evidence to the contrary,
> your kernel and thus "FreeVMS" suffers from the same problems.  And I,
> for one, am amazed that the VMS faithful aren't railing against this
> travesty of the VMS moniker.

   As one of the VMS faithfull, I looked away when I saw they were
   writing in C and having difficulties with LIB$ routines with varying
   length calling sequences.  There was some talk of asking gnu to put
   the needed hooks in gcc at the time.

   But I haven't looked too far away.  I took a much deeper look at
   thier BLISS compiler.  I don't know what all they've done with the
   kernel, but as long as I can run real VMS under the hobbyist program,
   my interest is limitted.

   I will look back when I need a free VMS-like OS and can't do what I
   need to under the hobbyist program.

   I think they are taking a reasonable approach.  I wish them luck.  I 
   wish I was sure I could contribute without exposing them to multiple
   legal issues.  I think thjey are capable of producing quality
   results.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 07:59:52 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Message-ID: <e$Wx93qNi$yF@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <fn7g24$2ua$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>
> If HP tries to sue one of the big boys then there will be a long drawn out
> extremely expensive lawsuite which will drag on for a long time and will sour
> any business relationships that HP has with the other company.

   HP becoming the SCO of VMS?  SCO is still the only company I know
   who's business plan included suing thier own customers.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:41:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Wilm Boerhout <wboerhout@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?
Message-ID: <6ff6243f-94be-4e88-b8b2-b7294d355d9b@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>

On 24 jan, 01:56, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> I was under the impression that the SPD was a document which
> described/limited HP's obligations with regards to software performance.
>
> Aka: if you have a config which doesn't agree with the SPD, HP is under
> no obligation to support it.
>
> If you have a cluster with more than 96 nodes, does this mean that HP
> can sue you ? If you have a cluster with nodes at 7.2 mixed with nodes
> at 8.3, does this mean that HP can sue you ?

When you purchase a license from HP, and want to exercise the right to
use
 the software under that license, you are legally bound by the license
terms,
available on the back of your PAK document and on the HP website.

These license terms, again, enumerate the hardware platforms that you
may run VMS on. The terms also explicitly refer to the SPD for
licensing
details. The SPD is thus legally a part of the terms. If it's not in
the terms/SPD,
you cannot run it legally. (e.g. the license prohibits you to run
OpenVMS
directly on an AMD Turion, apart from some slight technical
difficulties there)

If it's not in the terms/SPD, it's not covered by the license, and in
that sense,
illegal.

As for selling used hardware and licenses, it's a bit more
complicated. You can
"redesignate" all licenses within the same legal entity.

You can apply for "relicensing" upon hardware sale for Category 2
software products,
which is mainly OS and device/driver related software. See HP website.
A compiler, for instance, cannot be relicensed.
The new owner of the hardware must purchase a new compiler license.

Again, whether this is still enforced by HP, I doubt it. It was
enforced when I
was a Digital employee in the '80s & '90s.

As for the judge, at least in my country (s)he's supposed to uphold
the law,
but at the same time weighing interested parties' emm... interests
within the
boundaries of the law. In civil suits that is. That's why HP could
lose ground after
not having enforced its policies for a large number of years.

/Wilm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:00:02 +0800
From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>
Subject: Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Message-ID: <fn9k51$2in$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>

Hi Rich,

> Its great to see these being provided at pretty nice prices, but it
> would have been especially nice to have a VMS option.

It would have been even nicer to see it available to the stinking foreigners
as well :-(

This is what I get: -
[You do not have the proper permissions to view this content. Please see the
Membership benefits page for more information on DSPP membership.]

Nothing much happens outside the States I suppose?

The price looks right and I have my credit card in hand; anyone happy to
deal with an illegal alien?

Regards Richard Maher


"Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote in message
news:ec99bd7f-359c-454f-836b-4616b1cc065d@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> DSPP is providing refurbished low end Integrity servers at a pretty
> good price to DSPP members, along with a quantity break.  There are
> three options: one HPUX, one Linux, and one Windows.  HPUX and Windows
> come with what appear to be licensed copies of their respective OS's.
>
> Its great to see these being provided at pretty nice prices, but it
> would have been especially nice to have a VMS option.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 11:48:11 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Message-ID: <5vrc7rF1nbrfhU1@mid.individual.net>

In article <vM4e$HY3Iibq@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
> In article <_hPlj.5$PV7.1@newsfe09.lga>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <op.t5elvqnqhv4qyg@murphus>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> writes:
> 
>>>Just renewed DSPP this morning and on one page, which was giving me pain
>>>with both Opera and Firefox, I found 91 violations using validator
>> 
>> What sort of violations?  Violations because the pages were most likely 
>> authored with some M$ tool?  Other errors?
> 
> There are only two possible causes of such violations:
> 
> 	1. The page author did not try to validate the pages.
> 	2. When the pages did not validate the page author did not care.
> 
> Whether they use Frontpage or TECO, validation is the way you check.

Or you see if it runs with IE and if it does, job done.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 11:50:21 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Message-ID: <5vrcbtF1nbrfhU2@mid.individual.net>

In article <47981be3$0$507$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
>> There are only two possible causes of such violations:
>> 
>> 	1. The page author did not try to validate the pages.
>> 	2. When the pages did not validate the page author did not care.
> 
> 
>         3. The author thinks his MS fancy HTML producing software cannot
> make mistakes and that anything it generates will be standards
> compliant. (so never any need to validate it againsts the real standards(

If it works with IE why care about compliance to some standard you
don't even know about?  Just what world do you people live in? It's
not like this is new news.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:31:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com>
Subject: Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Message-ID: <1a50ca79-0da6-462d-9faa-632e8034398e@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>

On Jan 23, 6:27 pm, Sue <susan_skonet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2:31 pm, Rich Jordan <jor...@ccs4vms.com> wrote:
>
> > DSPP is providing refurbished low end Integrity servers at a pretty
> > good price to DSPP members, along with a quantity break.  There are
> > three options: one HPUX, one Linux, and one Windows.  HPUX and Windows
> > come with what appear to be licensed copies of their respective OS's.
>
> > Its great to see these being provided at pretty nice prices, but it
> > would have been especially nice to have a VMS option.
>
> I saw this post and am tracking it down.
>
> Sue

Sue,
     thanks.  I don't know if we would actually be in a position to
buy one (if it happened a few months from now I'd really press for it,
but right now we're too darn busy to even worry about it).  It would
sure be nice to have a second itanium as a test box since our 2620 is
in production and hard to change now.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:09:13 -0800
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: DSPP Integrity remanufactured hardware offerings, no VMS option
Message-ID: <op.t5f4pnrnhv4qyg@murphus>

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:50:21 -0800, Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu>  
wrote:

> In article <47981be3$0$507$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
> 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>>
>>> There are only two possible causes of such violations:
>>>
>>> 	1. The page author did not try to validate the pages.
>>> 	2. When the pages did not validate the page author did not care.
>>
>>
>>         3. The author thinks his MS fancy HTML producing software cannot
>> make mistakes and that anything it generates will be standards
>> compliant. (so never any need to validate it againsts the real  
>> standards(
>
> If it works with IE why care about compliance to some standard you
> don't even know about?  Just what world do you people live in? It's
> not like this is new news.

Well, Opera has a nifty feature for assisting in filling out forms,
essentially a small notepad that you pop that contains personal data
and then just click on the item in the list.
>
> bill
>



-- 
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 2008 08:22:21 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Message-ID: <KShId8n6kE4s@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <5vkl38F1lpt8bU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> In article <4794F5BB.80707@comcast.net>,
> 	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:

>> 
>> ApplicationS???  I was never a Windows Server person but I got the 
>> impression that the rule was one application per server!  At the very 
>> least, one application at a time!!
>  
> Who told you that rule?  Kerry?  You were misinformed.

   Our MS guru says he got it from MicroSoft.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:47:44 -0500
From: sol gongola <sol@adldata.com>
Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Message-ID: <4798a532$0$11570$607ed4bc@cv.net>

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <5vkl38F1lpt8bU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article <4794F5BB.80707@comcast.net>,
>> 	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> 
>>> ApplicationS???  I was never a Windows Server person but I got the 
>>> impression that the rule was one application per server!  At the very 
>>> least, one application at a time!!
>>  
>> Who told you that rule?  Kerry?  You were misinformed.
> 
>    Our MS guru says he got it from MicroSoft.
> 

The rule was that if each machine had only one application running
then you only lost one application when the machine went down :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:22:02 -0800 (PST)
From: yyyc186 <yyyc186@hughes.net>
Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Message-ID: <5ca31e44-247e-4357-b4e8-89e2bf65f310@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>

On Jan 21, 11:32 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
>
> So all of these corporations who are adopting Ubuntu have noone to goto for
> a support contract ? The Ubuntu developers don't have an organisation setup to
> provide telephone support etc ?
> Sorry without that sort of support structure in place lots of corporations
> aren't going to touch Ubuntu.
>

Well, you can go to http://www.ubuntu.com and click the support link
on the left side of the screen.  There are companies providing
commercial support.  Most developers get their answers either through
the news groups or the internal Ubuntu forums, but yes, for those who
feel the need to have a phone number where they can be put on
perpetual hold, can actually buy access to one.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:24:01 -0800 (PST)
From: yyyc186 <yyyc186@hughes.net>
Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Message-ID: <e70690d4-c0c5-4610-bd3d-d8c8140cedc0@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>

On Jan 21, 1:42 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>
> ApplicationS???  I was never a Windows Server person but I got the
> impression that the rule was one application per server!  At the very
> least, one application at a time!!

Now they install virtualization software on the Windows Server and run
8+ applications on it.  The server isn't any more stable, in fact, it
is less stable and you now have 8 times the outages.  But hey!  Look
at how much you saved on hardware!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:34:42 -0800 (PST)
From: yyyc186 <yyyc186@hughes.net>
Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Message-ID: <8a7eda79-4563-41fa-8912-b91ff5365588@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>

On Jan 21, 4:32 pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:


> Ubuntu is very widely used as a desktop OS.
>
> I do not consider that good argument for using it as server
> OS - on the contrary.
>

Apparently you weren't around in this industry to watch the
progression from Lose 3.1 to Lose NT.  Doesn't matter what you
consider a good argument, it is simply how it happens.

> > Now that Microsoft Windows and HP-UX have trained upper management to
> > accept outages and system crashes as a way of life, most companies (at
> > least the ones I'm encountering) are looking to replace both back end
> > servers and desktops with a single distro to reduce support issues and
> > overhead.
>
> But they will not reduce cost.
>
> Desktop requirements and server requirements are too different.
>
> Arne



Of course they will reduce cost.  They will be moving from software
which requires hundreds if not thousands of dollars to license to
software which costs about $16 for one DVD to be shipped to you if you
don't have the time or bandwidth to download it.  They will also
completely eliminate the expense of MS Office and its support contract
along with a lot of other commercial software.

Desktop and server CONFIGURATIONS are different, that does not mean
the OS must be different, it simply means it must be able to be
configured to handle the situation it is placed in.

We have already watched this many times.  Do you think an OpenVMS
cluster running business applications actually "needs" DecWindows???
No.  That was developed because DEC was trying to sell workstations.
In true DEC marketing fashion they hosed it from beginning to end when
they tried to sell it.

The idea was that the desktop would actually be clustered into the
production cluster so everyone could get to everything.  Then
marketing got greedy with the license pricing, the workstations didn't
sell, and DEC was gone.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:35:55 -0800 (PST)
From: yyyc186 <yyyc186@hughes.net>
Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function
Message-ID: <c7a2244a-5e79-4c60-b81e-6c169126934e@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>

On Jan 21, 4:36 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

> > ApplicationS???  I was never a Windows Server person but I got the
> > impression that the rule was one application per server!  At the very
> > least, one application at a time!!
>
> Who told you that rule?  Kerry?  You were misinformed.
>
That is the rule unless you want large publicly visible outages.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:16:54 GMT
From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: In Stock
Message-ID: <GZ1mj.2$YC1.1@newsfe09.lga>

In article <4797F4B2.CD3D3AD1@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net> writes:
>{...snip...}
>Neat trick, by the way - read the manual carefully! CAPS-LOCK + KP1, KP2
>or KP3 switches directly to hose sessions, respectively. F4 toggles thru
>them, as usual, of course.

Just to set the record straight, it's [CapLock] and [1] [2] [3] on the
alternate (EDT) keypad.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:55:04 GMT
From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w...
Message-ID: <IU%lj.1$XQ6.0@newsfe11.lga>

In article <5vrcbtF1nbrfhU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
>
>In article <47981be3$0$507$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
>	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>> 
>>> There are only two possible causes of such violations:
>>> 
>>> 	1. The page author did not try to validate the pages.
>>> 	2. When the pages did not validate the page author did not care.
>> 
>> 
>>         3. The author thinks his MS fancy HTML producing software cannot
>> make mistakes and that anything it generates will be standards
>> compliant. (so never any need to validate it againsts the real standards(
>
>If it works with IE why care about compliance to some standard you
>don't even know about?  Just what world do you people live in? It's
>not like this is new news.

Bill, 

It's not news to me.  I realize that M$IE is ubiquitous but it is losing
its saturation to other browsers such as Firefox because it is NOT keep-
ing up with network standards or _completely_ misinterpreting standards
(whether this is intentional or accidental is uncertain).

In support of the later argument, I submit: 

I spent many days recently trying to understand what M$ did in IE when it
implemented MD5 Digest authentication.  I spent most of my holiday trying
to understand how M$ incorrectly implemented MD5 Digest.  Finally, on New
Years day, I understood what M$ didn't do properly.  I was able to modify
my code to work with it.  My code now authenticates with Safari, Firefox,
Opera, Camino, and yes, M$IE.

Why did I spend so much time on the problem?  Because M$IE _is_ ubiquitous
but it's _not_ standards compliant!  I asked an engineer at a company that
manufactures a certain network appliance why they only used easily decoded
Basic Digest authentication and not MD5 Digest.  I was told it was because
they could not get M$IE to authenticate with MD5 Digest.  What is this do-
ing to the internet/marketspace?  For one, it is promoting poor security!

I'd wager that comp.os.vms's resident security guru, Larry, would rather
send his access credentials to some network appliance that has implemented
MD5 Digest over Basic Digest.  There's simply NO excuse for so many things
that M$ has done that buck these internet standards.  The RFCs, as well as
other standards, are out there, FoC, for any and all to read and implement.
Granted, some of them, while concise are a bit terse with details and ex-
amples but the MD5 Digest RFC (2617) is not one of them.  If I was able to
easily implement it, M$ certainly should be able to as well.

Isn't (Micro)'sloth' one of the seven deadly sins?  ;)



Footnote:  MD5 may not be perfect but it sure beats the hell out of sending
usernames and passwords in clear text, like Basic, over the internet.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:22:26 +0100
From: "Giroud, Bernard" <bgiroud@free.fr>
Subject: Re: Open sourcing of VMS: bad precedent set
Message-ID: <47983bec$0$31761$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

JF Mezei a écrit :
> The supporters of OS/2 had petitioned IBM to make OS/2 open source.
> 
> IBM decided to decline the offer, offering a number of various
> reasons/excuses to not do so. (some speculate there are some proprietary
> Microsoft code in there).
> 
> My guess is that since VMS is in the same boat as OS/2 (nearlty
> abandonned proprietary OS), perhaps we should push for individual
> products being open sourced.
> 
> (I would start with DECterm and TPU. )
> 
> [...snip...]
> 
> TPU might not displace much in terms of EMACS users, but it would enable
> VMS customers to feel far mroe comfortable with newer platforms,
> especially since it has both character cell and GUI versions.

I strongly second that. I really miss my own extensions on the other 
platforms...

-- 
Bernard Giroud

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:15:53 -0800 (PST)
From: yyyc186 <yyyc186@hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Why Writers Buy Asbestos Undies
Message-ID: <18f20465-38be-49e6-a6cc-9829e3748a91@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>

On Jan 21, 4:26 pm, Arne Vajh=F8j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
> Consolidation and SOA fits fine together. SOA is mostly independent of
> the physical deployment model (consolidation of boxes) and consolidation
> of apps can never remove the need for SOA.
>

Consolidation =3D Let's take a machine running a worthless OS (like
Windows or UX) that is barely able to stay up with a single
application, put some virtualization software on it, and now run 8
applications on that box.  This way we can have 8 times the outages,
but reduce our hardware costs.

Just think about how much they would save if they didn't do any
business at all!!

------------------------------

End of INFO-VAX 2008.048
************************