INFO-VAX Tue, 29 Jan 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 58 Contents: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Free for hobbyist use - 2 x AlphaServer 2000 (West Midlands, UK) Free for hobbyist use: 2 StorageWorks shelves with HSD30 (DSSI) controllers (Wes Re: HELP: VMS as an NFS client to Windows or Linux - primer please Re: HELP: VMS as an NFS client to Windows or Linux - primer please Re: HELP: VMS as an NFS client to Windows or Linux - primer please Re: Looking for a DECserver 200/MC/ or 300 Re: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w... Re: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w... Re: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w... Re: VT100 standards Re: VT100 standards Re: VT100 standards Re: VT100 standards Re: VT100 standards Re: VT100 standards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jan 2008 13:38:10 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <608oi2F1pjhtkU1@mid.individual.net> In article <479e82c7$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <479cd55d$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> Arne Vajhøj writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article <479bf9b8$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >>>> Arne Vajhøj writes: >>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> In article , >>>>>> JKB writes: >>>>>>>> If you want to know what I think the best solution is, (well, you >>>>>>>> probably don't, but I'll say it anyway) I think a group of people >>>>>>>> who are interested in the ability to run VMS programs and have the >>>>>>>> security and stability VMS offers should take something like NetBSD >>>>>>>> or OpenBSD and create a new tree. >>>>>>> Why NetBSD or OpenBSD were better than Linux kernel ? >>>>>> 1. Because they are not infected with the GNU Public Virus >>>>> That is politics/ideology not technical. >>>> Did I say it wasn't? Just like in business, you have to look at the >>>> whole picture. >>> Not really. >>> >>> If you want the technical best you want the technical best. >> >> Business is not about "the technical best". If it were would we still >> have MicroSoft? Business is about making money and anything that poses >> a possible problem to that needs to be taken into consideration. > > So you think the free VMS should be profit maximizing - OK that > gives another perspective on things. Well, it has been a profit center all its life, free is nice, but how much of what you truly need to run a successful business is? Maximizing? Not sure what your trying to say, but if it is going to survive, and advance to keep relevant in a rapidly changing industry it is certainly going to needc to earn enough to support that development. Let's not confuse the HP business model for VMS with reality. > The best thing to do then is nothing at all. Why? That just guarantees that VMS will go away. > >>>>>> 2. Because they actually use the 30-some years of computing research >>>>>> rather than re-inventing things (badly) because of NIH syndrome. >>>>> Hmm. What OS's were it that revived pcc to avoid using the existing >>>>> gcc ? >>>> >>>> I give up, what OSes? >>> BSD. >> >> Not FreeBSD. I just checked and all my servers up thru 6.1 have gcc. > > They are not off GCC yet. May never get off GCC. > > But NetBSD and OpenBSD put PCC in their source trees. Nothing wrong with that. Believe it or not Ultrix-11 shipped with three different C compilers. :-) > >> >>>> And what does that have to do with the statement >>>> above? Reusal to use GPL infected software is not NIH syndrome. >>> The difference between "code not using *our* license" and "code not >>> written by *us*" is not that big. >> >> Certainly it is. One can be a very rational decision while the other >> isn't. > > Sure. If your intention is to create a closed source version of *BSD, > then you have a good reason for preferring the BSD license over GPL. If the intent is to make commercially viable product, sometimes that is necessary. And if the long term survival and advancement of a product is the desire, there has to be money to do that. When you can only sell one copy you either have to price it prohibitively high or go out of business. Unless your willing to violate the GPL (as a number of people have and continue to do) and risk being that first court case that tests the legal validity of the GPL. > > For the rest then it is just ego. Seems to me that all the ego is in the Stalman camp. We wrote and gave away code long before there was and FSF or GNU. Didn't need a GPL either. > >> >>>> Being >>>> dis-satisfied with the performance or code generated by GCC is not NIH >>>> syndrome >>> From the original announcement: >>> >>>> It is not yet bug-free, but it can compile the i386 userspace. The >>>> big benefit of it (apart from that it's BSD licensed, for license >>>> geeks :-) is that it is fast, 5-10 times faster than gcc, while still >>>> producing reasonable code. The only optimization added so far is a >>>> multiple-register-class graph-coloring register allocator, which may >>>> be one of the best register allocators today. Conversion to SSA >>>> format is also implemented, but not yet the phi function. Not too >>>> difficult though, after that strength reduction is high on the list. >>> Compiling 10 times faster with almost no optimization does not >>> match what you wrote very well. >> >> Huh? I think you have that backwards. I said it wasn't NIH and that >> they could be dis-satisfied with performance or code generated. They >> said it was because of license and performance. Sounds like I hit the >> nail right on the head. > > Try read the description of pcc I quoted again. > > Performance is definitely not the reason the want pcc. Huh? "The big benefit of it (...cut out irelevant license commenti...) is that it is fast, 5-10 times faster than gcc," Sounds like a performance difference to me!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 2008 13:56:23 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <608pk7F1ppmpgU1@mid.individual.net> In article <479e8350$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Keith Parris writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> I believe that depends on the availability of the book. If it is >>>> publicly published and contains only concepts and not code I see >>>> no reason it could not be used. Implementations can be copyrighted >>>> not concepts. And if the book is published and available to the >>>> public, then it is not "trade secret". Was the book openly available >>>> or only under NDA? >>> The Internals & Data Structures books, Kirby McCoy's VMS File System >>> Internals, and Roy G. Davis' VAXcluster Principles were all openly >>> published. >> >> In that case I would say they are fair game as references for writing >> a clone. > > No. > > Making information about internal workings public available does > not make it OK to use for creating. Read what I said. "Published publicly". Pubslished being the key legal concept. > > Maybe the most well known example of that is back when IBM > published the BIOS source code for the original IBM PC in > the manual they sold with every PC. I don't remember a listing of the full BIOS being int he original set of docs (but then, I don't remember a lot things at this stage in my life :-) but it is also irrelevant as those were not published but were contained within the package governed by the "shrink-wrap license" that came with them and I am sure it limited them. The book in question was "published" and available without restriction. So, copyright applies. Patent could apply to certain concepts (actually, to the implementation of said concept and not the concept itself). But the ideas were put out there for public knowledge and application. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 2008 14:43:13 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <608sc0F1piul5U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "FredK" writes: > > Whenever I see these types of threads, I roll my eyes. Partially because it > doesn't really lay out what exactly a "VMS-like" or "VMS-clone" would > actually provide. Well, I kinda hoped I let people know what I meant by "a clone of VMS". :-) Something that could allow the continued use and development of the ideas that comprise VMS without reliance on someone who apparently couldn't care less!! > > If it's just a DCL like shell - then the guys at ASCI (and I believe the > guys that started it were ex-DECies that I worked with over 20 years ago > from the New York office) have stuff that is an excellent tools for PCs. As has been stated here numerous times (by me and others) DCL is not VMS. A DCL shell could be written for UNIX in a relatively short time and while interesting, it would be, pretty much, useless. > > If it means being able to take a VMS binary and run it, or take the source > for a VMS application and compile/link/run - then this is a harder nut to > crack. Getting closer. Because the target would likely be hardware that the original never ran on, executable compatability is probably not in the offing. But source code compatability, now there is the holy grail. > RMS isn't a trivial thing to get bug-for-bug compatible. Golly, I would hope that one of the goals would be to fix all these bugs that have not been considered important enough to attract the attention of VMS's current or previous owners. > Also > remember that the typical VMS application is run in a way that DCL is part > of it's address space and provides services to the application - it isn't > just a shell. Agreed, which is why I said a DCL shell wasn't really the goal. > Device naming is different on many OSes. In fact, the IO > construct in VMS is process based and not system based. There are many, > many subtle differences. Which is why I think while a UNix kernel may be a starting point, it is only that and by the time it is well underway there should probably be mcuh that has changed. (But, in this case, leaving enough to allow for the possibility of porting some Unix applications rather than trying to graft on POSIX support later.) > > IMHO the best VMS "clone" is VMS running on top of a CPU emulation because > it *is* VMS. Short term solution which is already in use. Iw as thinking more along the lines of long-term solutions. > Some of these hardware emulations are pretty good, and because > of the speeds of current CPUs - the performance is often faster than the > hardware it is emulating (like the VAX emulators). Rather than figure out > how to rewrite VMS from scratch, I would figure out how to create a driver > model that would allow new drivers for VMS that would use the native drivers > on the emulation platform instead of virtualizing old controllers. > Essentially the same thing that is being done in various virtualization > schemes - with the extra bit that the CPU architecture itself is being > emulated. And what do you do when: a.) VMS development comes to a complete stop. b.) HP stops issuing licenses for VMS c.) HP says, in accordance with their rights, that all previous VMS licenses are officially terminated. Don't say it won't happen. Maybe it won't, but it could and if you want to bet your business on VMS you need to consider all possibilities no matter how unlikely and include them in your Risk Assessment. A clone of VMS is merely another possibile mitigator to make VMS viable for the long term. Would it be a major undertaking? Certainly. Could it be profitable enough to be worth the effort? I certainly think so and I hope others do as well. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:32:35 +0000 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Free for hobbyist use - 2 x AlphaServer 2000 (West Midlands, UK) Message-ID: Gentle colleagues, Following systems available for hobbyist use: 2 x AlphaServer 2000. I think one is a 5/300 and the other is a 4/275 but don't know which is which as the doors are off both (the hinges are missing). Don't know if they work as it's too much hard work to get the machines to somewhere there's power, but I believe they worked last time we tried them. I've left the CD-ROM, floppy drive and a SCSI card in each (plus one also has a graphics card in it). Both have internal StorageWorks disk shelves (8 slots in each). One freshly formatted RZ29 (4.3 Gbytes) disk in each system (I could supply a VMS 8.3 Installation CD if necessary... I don't have access to the systems, otherwise I'd pre-install VMS). I also don't know how much memory there is in each system, but I'd guess it's at least 64 Mbytes each. Suitable for VMS, Tru64, Linux(?) or NetBSD(?). Any takers must pick up personally from Coventry (near Warwick University). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:40:47 +0000 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Free for hobbyist use: 2 StorageWorks shelves with HSD30 (DSSI) controllers (Wes Message-ID: Gentle colleagues, some more free stuff (Coventry, UK): 2 StorageWorks shelves (1 with 2 x HSD30 DSSI controllers, and 1 with 2 x HSD30C DSSI controllers (C=writeback-cache), each with 1 PSU. Again, takers should pick up personally from Coventry, near Warwick University. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:14:46 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HELP: VMS as an NFS client to Windows or Linux - primer please Message-ID: <479ed382$0$28239$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Mr (or Mrs) Gremlin, I strongly suggest you take a good look at the TCPIP Services Management manual. It can be consulted at http://www.hp.com/go/vms and follow the links to the VMS documentation. Make sure you select the right TCPIP Services version. There is a significant section on NFS in that manual, and it discusses the proxy issue. Don't rely on what the manual says is "default", specify it in the command line. It is also important to specify which version of TCPIP Services you have. I just tried to setup NFS on my old VAX (7.3 VMS, 5.3 TCPIP Services) > TCPIP> add proxy jfmezei/uid=501/gid=501/host=brakes > TCPIP> add proxy system/uid=0/gid=0/host=brakes > TCPIP> mount dnfs1:/host=brakes/path="/"/uid=501/gid=501/server=unix/system > %TCPIP$DNFSMOUNT-S-MOUNTED, / mounted on _DNFS1:[000000] > TCPIP> exit > $ dir dnfs1:[000000] > > Directory DNFS1:[000000] > > $5N$S$POTLIGHT-$V100.DIR;1 $5N$T$RASHES.DIR;1 $5NVOL.DIR;1 > $A$PPLICATIONS$C$LASSIC.DIR;1 $A$PPLICATIONS.DIR;1 > $C$LEANUP$7A$A$T$7A$S$TARTUP.DIR;1 $D$ESKTOP$7A$DB.;1 $D$ESKTOP$7A$DF.;1 > $D$ESKTOP$7A$F$OLDER.DIR;1 $D$ESKTOP$P$RINTERS$7A$DB.;1 > $D$EVELOPER.DIR;1 $L$IBRARY.DIR;1 $N$ETWORK$7A$T$RASH$7A$F$OLDER.DIR;1 > $N$ETWORK.DIR;1 $NAVM$AC800$QSF$ILE.;1 > $O$PEN$F$OLDER$L$IST$DF$4M.;1 $R$AILROAD$7A$T$YCOON.DIR;1 > $S$OFTWARE.DIR;1 $S$YSTEM$7A$F$OLDER.DIR;1 $S$YSTEM.DIR;1 > $T$HE$V$OLUME$S$ETTINGS$F$OLDER.DIR;1 $U$SERS.DIR;1 $V$OLUMES.DIR;1 > .$DS_S$TORE;1 .HIDDEN;1 .HOTFILES$5NBTREE;1 > .SYM$S$CHED$S$CAN$L$OCKXZ;1 AUTOMOUNT.DIR;1 BIN.DIR;1 > CORES.DIR;1 DEV.DIR;1 DISK2.DIR;1 ETC.;1 > MACH.;1 MACH.SYM;1 MACH_KERNEL.;1 PRIVATE.DIR;1 > SBIN.DIR;1 TMP.;1 USR.DIR;1 VAR.;1 > > Total of 41 files. (weird file names is due to VAX-VMS not understanding modern filename). > TCPIP> show mount/full > _DNFS1:[000000] mounted > BRAKES.vaxination.ca:/ > Transport TCPIP-UDP Writing Enabled > Read/write size 8192/8192 Write conversion Enabled > RPC timeout 0 00:00:01.00 ADF usage USE,UPDATE,CREATE > RPC retry limit 4 Fileids Unique > Attribute time 0 00:00:15.00 Server type UNIX > Directory time 0 00:00:30.00 Advisory Locking Disabled > Cache Validation MODIFY TIME Default user [DECNET] > Superuser No Default UID,GID 501,501 OK, I have done a bit of testing. It appears that SYSTEM on VMS doesn't really map to 0,0 on the remote system even if I have a proxy setup for it. But of I git the /GID=501/UID=501, then SYSTEM has teh same access as 501,501 on the remote system. Set the /UID /GID in the mount command to the combo that is mapped to the owner of the directory on the remote system. If that doesn't work, then set all files in that directory (and the directory itself) to be world readable and test again. (These tests were done on the vax, not on the more recent TCOPIP 5.6 on alpha) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:20:05 +1100 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: HELP: VMS as an NFS client to Windows or Linux - primer please Message-ID: <13ptodn1ci1klce@corp.supernews.com> JF Mezei wrote: > Mr (or Mrs) Gremlin, > > I strongly suggest you take a good look at the TCPIP Services Management > manual. It can be consulted at http://www.hp.com/go/vms and follow the > links to the VMS documentation. Make sure you select the right TCPIP > Services version. > > There is a significant section on NFS in that manual, and it discusses > the proxy issue. Don't rely on what the manual says is "default", > specify it in the command line. > > It is also important to specify which version of TCPIP Services you have. > > I just tried to setup NFS on my old VAX (7.3 VMS, 5.3 TCPIP Services) > >> TCPIP> add proxy jfmezei/uid=501/gid=501/host=brakes >> TCPIP> add proxy system/uid=0/gid=0/host=brakes >> TCPIP> mount dnfs1:/host=brakes/path="/"/uid=501/gid=501/server=unix/system >> %TCPIP$DNFSMOUNT-S-MOUNTED, / mounted on _DNFS1:[000000] >> TCPIP> exit >> $ dir dnfs1:[000000] >> >> Directory DNFS1:[000000] >> >> $5N$S$POTLIGHT-$V100.DIR;1 $5N$T$RASHES.DIR;1 $5NVOL.DIR;1 >> $A$PPLICATIONS$C$LASSIC.DIR;1 $A$PPLICATIONS.DIR;1 >> $C$LEANUP$7A$A$T$7A$S$TARTUP.DIR;1 $D$ESKTOP$7A$DB.;1 $D$ESKTOP$7A$DF.;1 >> $D$ESKTOP$7A$F$OLDER.DIR;1 $D$ESKTOP$P$RINTERS$7A$DB.;1 >> $D$EVELOPER.DIR;1 $L$IBRARY.DIR;1 $N$ETWORK$7A$T$RASH$7A$F$OLDER.DIR;1 >> $N$ETWORK.DIR;1 $NAVM$AC800$QSF$ILE.;1 >> $O$PEN$F$OLDER$L$IST$DF$4M.;1 $R$AILROAD$7A$T$YCOON.DIR;1 >> $S$OFTWARE.DIR;1 $S$YSTEM$7A$F$OLDER.DIR;1 $S$YSTEM.DIR;1 >> $T$HE$V$OLUME$S$ETTINGS$F$OLDER.DIR;1 $U$SERS.DIR;1 $V$OLUMES.DIR;1 >> .$DS_S$TORE;1 .HIDDEN;1 .HOTFILES$5NBTREE;1 >> .SYM$S$CHED$S$CAN$L$OCKXZ;1 AUTOMOUNT.DIR;1 BIN.DIR;1 >> CORES.DIR;1 DEV.DIR;1 DISK2.DIR;1 ETC.;1 >> MACH.;1 MACH.SYM;1 MACH_KERNEL.;1 PRIVATE.DIR;1 >> SBIN.DIR;1 TMP.;1 USR.DIR;1 VAR.;1 >> >> Total of 41 files. > > (weird file names is due to VAX-VMS not understanding modern filename). > >> TCPIP> show mount/full >> _DNFS1:[000000] mounted >> BRAKES.vaxination.ca:/ >> Transport TCPIP-UDP Writing Enabled >> Read/write size 8192/8192 Write conversion Enabled >> RPC timeout 0 00:00:01.00 ADF usage USE,UPDATE,CREATE >> RPC retry limit 4 Fileids Unique >> Attribute time 0 00:00:15.00 Server type UNIX >> Directory time 0 00:00:30.00 Advisory Locking Disabled >> Cache Validation MODIFY TIME Default user [DECNET] >> Superuser No Default UID,GID 501,501 > > > OK, I have done a bit of testing. It appears that SYSTEM on VMS doesn't > really map to 0,0 on the remote system even if I have a proxy setup for > it. But of I git the /GID=501/UID=501, then SYSTEM has teh same access > as 501,501 on the remote system. > > > Set the /UID /GID in the mount command to the combo that is mapped to > the owner of the directory on the remote system. If that doesn't work, > then set all files in that directory (and the directory itself) to be > world readable and test again. > > (These tests were done on the vax, not on the more recent TCOPIP 5.6 on > alpha) Hi JF It is Mr Gremlin (are there any other types??) I have trawled through that manual for months and, as lovely a document as it is, it is no help..... I have tried to go back to first principles - removed all mapping from Windows, and all proxies etc from VMS. Linux client still connect anonymously, so VMS should. Well, no.... Using no VMS proxy and making a mount command has Wireshark showing that the value for UID/GID passed to Windows by VMS is....UID: 4294967294, which is hex FEFFFFFF - this is clearly not -2!!! When I mount explicitly passing /UID=-2,/GID=-2 or /UID="-2"/GID="-2" I get the same result. Now, I am thinking, that the UID/GID is being passed in a way that is OK for positive integers, but is rooted (Australian for not performing to specifications) for negative numbers, such as the default for anonymous which works for every Linux client. From Wireshark, I also know that whatever positive integer value I pass using /UID/GID is passed to windows, so in Windows on the NFS share, I set the anonymous value to be 100 rather than -2. I can mount from VMS using this value in the /UID/GID flags. Wireshark shows that the GETATTR call when trying to read the directory returns that the file is a directory, mode is 040775 which means owner and group have full permissions and the rest of the world has read/execute. I am anonymous and allowed root access so I should be OK - not. If someone is interested and provides an email address, I can email the complete Wireshark dump for perusal.... ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 2008 09:47:27 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: HELP: VMS as an NFS client to Windows or Linux - primer please Message-ID: In article <13ptc6k9jn4228e@corp.supernews.com>, "Michael D. Ober" writes: > > When I was attempting the same thing last year, I finally determined that > the issue is that the VMS client appears to be a V3 client to Windows > Services for Unix (SFU), but that it is actually only a V2 client. This is the same as what I ran across when using a Mac client with Multinet's NFS server. I had to force the Mac client to use NFS V2. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:53:30 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for a DECserver 200/MC/ or 300 Message-ID: <_sEnj.1$Qi6.0@newsfe11.lga> In article <48072fe0-b8ca-4517-90c8-491429780a21@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" writes: > > >Hello >Was wondering if anybody has a 200/MC or 300 laying around that they >are not using and really dont want to send the item(s) to the trash. >tks >phil >p.s. >trying to stay away from e-smell (ebay), and this is for personal use. I had one and gave it away. Any reason why you want a 200/MC or 300 specifically? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 2008 07:04:44 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w... Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> >> >>In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> >>> Sending them as PDF would make them more *universally* "compatable". (sic) >> >>Providing you do not generate the form of PDF that is unreadable >>by Adobe Acrobat 4. > > I read PDF with Preview. That is irrelevant in the long term. A statement relevant in the long term would be "I always upgrade my operating system to adapt to format changes." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:04:45 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w... Message-ID: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in news:qhjTrljA2M4Z@eisner.encompasserve.org: > In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > writes: >> >> Sending them as PDF would make them more *universally* >> "compatable". (sic) > > We can't even get the kiddies to send them as .doc, which the new > MS Office can do. > I recall this problem with previous versions of the M$ products and they had an update (or maybe some registry patch) that caused the newer product to default to saving in the older format. Perhaps such an option exists for this newer version. Tad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:35:31 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: M$IE; was: DSPP Integrity remanufactured h/w... Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > >In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >>> >>> >>>In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>> >>>> Sending them as PDF would make them more *universally* "compatable". (sic) >>> >>>Providing you do not generate the form of PDF that is unreadable >>>by Adobe Acrobat 4. >> >> I read PDF with Preview. > >That is irrelevant in the long term. >A statement relevant in the long term would be "I always upgrade my >operating system to adapt to format changes." :D I need to upgrade my OS (VMS) to support the gobbledegook reformatted quoted-printable shite that Micro$oft mailers create whenever they send out preformatted text! I just received an email from a site which should have been text -- text that was generated by some SDA commands I asked the customer to enter. I now have a display full of "= 20" and similar shite. What is it with M$ and text? It does NOT need to be encoded. I with VMS would ship with ZIP. I'd write a procedure to BACKUP and ZIP said files so that I can then get a proper attachment and unravel it to see properly formatted text. Of course, the ZIP file would probably get FTPed from the VMS box to the PeeCee as a text file and I'd still be out in the cold. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:08:19 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: On Dec 29 2007, 11:45=A0am, JF Mezei wrote: > The "Re: Setting Reflection 2 window titles from VMS" thead has gotten > me to think. > > Has Digital ever officially released/published documentation on all the > escape sequences that are beyond the core VT220 ones ? (especially those > labeled "DEC private sequences) ? > > Over the years, I have seen many individual requests for the private > escape sequences. And while the VT320 book contained many of them, > don't recall seeing a DECterm programming manual with all the special > escape sequences. And I recall the author of Kermit having to privately > obtain many sequences under the table to get his emulator to work well. > > If DEC was unwilling to officially publish the complete set of escape > sequences, can you fault emulator makers for their non-compliance ? > > However, we know that the VT terminal manuals until at least the VT400 > series contained a good listing of the escape sequences, but it didn't > document all of them. > > If an emulator doesn't get those right then yeah, you can fault them. > But I do not believe that the "set the window title" sequence has ever > officially been documented. A few years back, I discovered a problem in WRQ's Reflection product (I think it was version 8 or 9). I mailed them a spare copy of a VT-420 programmer's manual which contained many tables of escape sequences. (Back in the day, every terminal came with one of these). Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: <376d17b3-482b-4d00-bb92-10f65aac018d@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Dec 29 2007, 2:10=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > can't come up with a reference. =A0I can recall doing things to DECTerm > > titles with escape sequences from DCL. =A0Unfortunately or, perhaps, not= , > > the code does not seem to have survived. > > The DECterm window titles is fairly easy: > > ]21;Window Title\ > ]2L;Window Icon\ > > the first one is a twenty one, not two eye. > > I learned this right here on c.o.v a couple years ago. From an > authoritative person, not from authoritative documentation > > There is also some information around on the mouse support for VT > operations. =A0It would be a real shame if all this went away as employees= > leave VMS before its documentation is made "open source". Hey JF. I've got no experience with DECterm, but aren't those square brackets going the wrong way? For VT100 you would use something like "[2J" to clear the screen. Wouldn't this be the same for DECterm? Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:26:01 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: On Dec 29 2007, 11:45=A0am, JF Mezei wrote: > The "Re: Setting Reflection 2 window titles from VMS" thead has gotten > me to think. > > Has Digital ever officially released/published documentation on all the > escape sequences that are beyond the core VT220 ones ? (especially those > labeled "DEC private sequences) ? > > Over the years, I have seen many individual requests for the private > escape sequences. And while the VT320 book contained many of them, > don't recall seeing a DECterm programming manual with all the special > escape sequences. And I recall the author of Kermit having to privately > obtain many sequences under the table to get his emulator to work well. > > If DEC was unwilling to officially publish the complete set of escape > sequences, can you fault emulator makers for their non-compliance ? > > However, we know that the VT terminal manuals until at least the VT400 > series contained a good listing of the escape sequences, but it didn't > document all of them. > > If an emulator doesn't get those right then yeah, you can fault them. > But I do not believe that the "set the window title" sequence has ever > officially been documented. About 20 years ago, I was charged with the task of supporting 25 simultaneous interactive (non-programming) users on a small VAX-11/730. This system was really overloaded and we did everything imaginable to squeeze out every ounce (gram?) of performance. Since all our users at that time were using VT105 terminals, we stopped doing driver calls and started including a file of VT100 constants so we could send out escape sequences from within our application data stream. We kept this file up-to-date for at least 10 years but never required our clients to every have anything more than a vt200 emulation. Anyway, here is a copy of the file: http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/demo_vms/device_controls.zip and I can probably dig up more escape sequences if someone needs them. However, these Alpha systems are so fast that it makes more sense to go back to doing driver calls. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:59:28 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote in news:e7a7231a-985a-4315-b1da-0b305f5c45ac@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: > About 20 years ago, I was charged with the task of supporting 25 > simultaneous interactive (non-programming) users on a small > VAX-11/730. This system was really overloaded and we did everything > imaginable to squeeze out every ounce (gram?) of performance. Since > all our users at that time were using VT105 terminals, we stopped > doing driver calls and started including a file of VT100 constants > so we could send out escape sequences from within our application > data stream. We kept this file up-to-date for at least 10 years but > never required our clients to every have anything more than a vt200 > emulation. > > Anyway, here is a copy of the file: > > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/demo_vms/device_controls.zip I remember a similar set of sequences writing in DIBOL and Synergy DBL. Your error message sequence reminds me of the broadcast message trapping routines I wrote: A subroutine called at the start of an image would set up broadcast trapping, declare a common area consisting of a 20 element array of pointers and an index. Broadcast messages were delivered via AST which called a subroutine that translated unprintable characters to spaces, allocated memory for the text, stuffed the text in that memory, released the memory pointed to by the next element of the array (if it was not zero), stored the pointer in the next element of the array, updated the index, built a string consisting of the cursor save sequence, move to line 24, column 1, bell character, clear line, saved text & restore cursor, and then wrote it to the terminal and returned. Users appreciated that notification moved from messing up their input forms to a nice little flash of a message on the bottom line. (Since line 24 was used for all kinds of messages, it didn't remain there very long.) That code is still in use today for a least 2 companies. Oops, I've drifted off the subject. Tad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:27:49 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: <9uInj.3$Qi6.0@newsfe11.lga> In article , Neil Rieck writes: > > >On Dec 29 2007, 11:45=A0am, JF Mezei >wrote: >> The "Re: Setting Reflection 2 window titles from VMS" thead has gotten >> me to think. >> >> Has Digital ever officially released/published documentation on all the >> escape sequences that are beyond the core VT220 ones ? (especially those >> labeled "DEC private sequences) ? >> >> Over the years, I have seen many individual requests for the private >> escape sequences. And while the VT320 book contained many of them, >> don't recall seeing a DECterm programming manual with all the special >> escape sequences. And I recall the author of Kermit having to privately >> obtain many sequences under the table to get his emulator to work well. >> >> If DEC was unwilling to officially publish the complete set of escape >> sequences, can you fault emulator makers for their non-compliance ? >> >> However, we know that the VT terminal manuals until at least the VT400 >> series contained a good listing of the escape sequences, but it didn't >> document all of them. >> >> If an emulator doesn't get those right then yeah, you can fault them. >> But I do not believe that the "set the window title" sequence has ever >> officially been documented. > >A few years back, I discovered a problem in WRQ's Reflection product >(I think it was version 8 or 9). I mailed them a spare copy of a >VT-420 programmer's manual which contained many tables of escape >sequences. (Back in the day, every terminal came with one of these). Those guys used to come to the DECUS trade shows back in the day. I had a number of conversations with the folks that claimed to be the engineers of the product. I'd demonstrate the problems with a certain escape sequence but they never did anything to correct it. What you did was throw away a perfectly good VT420 programmer's manual. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 2008 17:06:53 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VT100 standards Message-ID: <6094pdF1pk0juU1@mid.individual.net> In article <9uInj.3$Qi6.0@newsfe11.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article , Neil Rieck writes: >> >> >>On Dec 29 2007, 11:45=A0am, JF Mezei >>wrote: >>> The "Re: Setting Reflection 2 window titles from VMS" thead has gotten >>> me to think. >>> >>> Has Digital ever officially released/published documentation on all the >>> escape sequences that are beyond the core VT220 ones ? (especially those >>> labeled "DEC private sequences) ? >>> >>> Over the years, I have seen many individual requests for the private >>> escape sequences. And while the VT320 book contained many of them, >>> don't recall seeing a DECterm programming manual with all the special >>> escape sequences. And I recall the author of Kermit having to privately >>> obtain many sequences under the table to get his emulator to work well. >>> >>> If DEC was unwilling to officially publish the complete set of escape >>> sequences, can you fault emulator makers for their non-compliance ? >>> >>> However, we know that the VT terminal manuals until at least the VT400 >>> series contained a good listing of the escape sequences, but it didn't >>> document all of them. >>> >>> If an emulator doesn't get those right then yeah, you can fault them. >>> But I do not believe that the "set the window title" sequence has ever >>> officially been documented. >> >>A few years back, I discovered a problem in WRQ's Reflection product >>(I think it was version 8 or 9). I mailed them a spare copy of a >>VT-420 programmer's manual which contained many tables of escape >>sequences. (Back in the day, every terminal came with one of these). > > Those guys used to come to the DECUS trade shows back in the day. I had a > number of conversations with the folks that claimed to be the engineers of > the product. I'd demonstrate the problems with a certain escape sequence > but they never did anything to correct it. What you did was throw away a > perfectly good VT420 programmer's manual. I remember back in my pre-academia days...... Working on a VT-xxx emulator, written in TurboPascal, with a good friend and having it continuously bomb out running EDT. We used a datascope (anybody remember them?) and hand documented all the apparently un-documented things that DEC did with their terminals. Of course, I would have thought that all stopped when the ANSI standard was published, but knowing the vendor involved, maybe not. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.058 ************************