INFO-VAX Fri, 08 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 77 Contents: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Re: Help identifying a cable Re: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Re: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Re: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 OT: Hack contest Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:56:43 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Jordan Subject: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: <05fe2120-bdd5-465a-8ec7-3bfacf732691@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Been too darn busy to renew, finally had time today; my membership expired 1/31 (which is interesting in itself because my membership used to run through June 30th; I'm not sure when the schedule changed). So I can't log on to the site; ok. Go to membership, click renewal, get a choice of online or printable PDF, and a note that individual membership is $50/year. The PDF says $50. The 'online' wants $90 for an individual membership. What gives? "Convenience" fee like the wretched state of Ill Annoy charges if you dare renew vehicle registration online instead of standing in line or mailing it in (although even Ill Annoy can only dream of charging 80% over the base fee... at least so far)? Covering the cost of providing this fine storefront service? Covering the cost of this new merged super-duper-user-group an email went out about today? I'll go with the PDF thanks. All I use DECUS... er Encompass for any more is the hobbyist licenses and very occasional access to the libraries, and while I like to support it for that, $90 is more than a bit much... it'll be an associate membership for me if it comes to that. Its not like work pays for this stuff. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 08 Feb 2008 00:29:21 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: <47aba261$0$7858$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <05fe2120-bdd5-465a-8ec7-3bfacf732691@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Rich Jordan writes: >Been too darn busy to renew, finally had time today; my membership >expired 1/31 (which is interesting in itself because my membership >used to run through June 30th; I'm not sure when the schedule >changed). > >So I can't log on to the site; ok. Go to membership, click renewal, >get a choice of online or printable PDF, and a note that individual >membership is $50/year. > >The PDF says $50. The 'online' wants $90 for an individual >membership. > >What gives? "Convenience" fee like the wretched state of Ill Annoy >charges if you dare renew vehicle registration online instead of >standing in line or mailing it in (although even Ill Annoy can only >dream of charging 80% over the base fee... at least so far)? Covering >the cost of providing this fine storefront service? Covering the cost >of this new merged super-duper-user-group an email went out about >today? > >I'll go with the PDF thanks. All I use DECUS... er Encompass for any >more is the hobbyist licenses and very occasional access to the >libraries, and while I like to support it for that, $90 is more than a >bit much... it'll be an associate membership for me if it comes to >that. Its not like work pays for this stuff. DECUS membership used to be free. Then, as the value eroded, they started a sustaining membership program for a fee. IIRC, it promised the benefit of a membership directory (which I still have stashed somewhere) that was *supposed* to have the names of all the sustaining members. My name in it was elided so I never paid the sustaining membership again. Encompass? I have no idea what it provides for me other than a membership ID to enroll in an over-priced content free symposium once a year. I have only been to one Encompass symposium since the demise of DECUS and that was only to be a trade show booth bunny -- you didn't miss anything, I'm not that cute! However, it if costs you $90 to get a membership to keep the hobbyist lic- ence scheme valid I suppose that isn't too bad. It's only a quarter a day. Nicotineholics burn that up everytime they light up. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:53:24 -0600 From: Slor Subject: Re: DECUS (er, sorry Encompass) renewal, whats the deal on cost? Message-ID: Despite all prevention efforts, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in news:47aba261$0$7858$607ed4bc@cv.net: > However, it if costs you $90 to get a membership to keep the hobbyist > lic- ence scheme valid I suppose that isn't too bad. It's only a > quarter a day. Nicotineholics burn that up everytime they light up. > It doesn't. The free associate membership gets you the hobbyist licenses as well. -- James http://www.e-host-direct.com Reliable web hosting from $12/year. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:01:24 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Help identifying a cable Message-ID: <47AB8DC4.1090106@comcast.net> Cydrome Leader wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>JF Mezei wrote: >> >>>Cydrome Leader wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>INMAC was a huge computer cables distributor. I think they vanished in the >>>>early 90s. >>> >>> >>>If I recall properly, INMAC and the PC/MAC wharehouse became/merged >>>into what is today CDW. >>> >>>BlackBox still has a big catalogue of various cables. >> >>BlackBox not only has a big catalog of cables and other stuff but, >>if you can tell them what you need in terms of number of conductors >>and what's connected to what, they will make you a custom cable! > > > My issue with blackbox is the prices that are 50000% too high. > > There are other places that will make weird cable at sensible prices. It's like those $600 toilet seats the goverment sometimes buys. They could get a standard toilet seat for $20 or so but these toilet seats are non-standard, intended for use in an aircraft and the government wants just four of them! So the manufacturer spends $2300 tooling up to make the things and charges accordingly. If you want custom work, you generally have to pay for it! Frequently it's expensive! If you want something really odd, it can get really expensive. I'm sure that there are cases where someone other than Black Box can do it cheaper. I've dealt with them for a couple of custom cables intended to connect a VT320 to the console port on a Cisco switch. That's a piece of six conductor cable, an RJ45 and an MMJ connector. You need the crimping tool and dies for the RJ45 and the MMJ. Now you pay a couple of hundred for the tool and two sets of dies, you buy a hundred feet of cable of which 92 feet may never get used, a package of 50 or 100 RJ45 and a package of MMJ. You need to know what pin on each end gets connected to what pin on the other end. Add thirty minutes of my time which, I assure you, cost my employer dearly. Most of that time is just finding all the stuff I need; if you have all the tools and materials in front of you, it's maybe five minutes work to actually make the cable. Black Box's pricing begins to look like a real bargain. If you happen to have all this stuff, making the cable is five or ten minutes work and it's faster, easier, and cheaper than getting it from Black Box. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:43:08 -0000 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Message-ID: <13qmurrhsefj38d@corp.supernews.com> "Gary Parker" wrote in message news:2008020709272716807-gjparker@lboroacuk... > Morning all, first of all le me thank Roy Omond for the kind donation > of the two Alphaserver 2000s that are now sat in pieces on my office > floor, they're a big improvement on my aging uVAX 3100/30. > > The machines didn't have any NICs in them so I've been scrounging > around for something compatible and found a couple of Adaptec > ANA-6944A/TX cards. They're full-length PCI cards with four digital > 21140-AE NICs on them. The console can see them, as does the OS (7.3-2, > fresh install, no patches yet installed) and @sys$manager:tcpip$config > happily sees four interfaces and lets me configure them whereupon they > pass IVP. After starting TCPIP Services I can't ping the machine nor > can I can telnet in or out. The activity light is flashing for the port > I have connected to my switch but the switch's mac table doesn't have > an entry for the NIC in it so nothing's getting out, by the looks of it. > > So, does anyone have any experience of using these cards with OpenVMS > in an Alpha? Have they been known to work and how? > > Thanks in advance for any help offered, here's some more detailed info > from the machine: > > At boot time the console reports the following: > > > probing PCI-to-PCI bridge, bus 2 > bus 0, slot 1 -- pka -- NCR 53C810 > bus 1, slot 3 -- vga -- ISA VGA > bus 0, slot 6 -- pkb -- NCR 53C810 > bus 2, slot 4 -- ewa -- DECchip 21140-AA > bus 2, slot 5 -- ewb -- DECchip 21140-AA > bus 2, slot 6 -- ewc -- DECchip 21140-AA > bus 2, slot 7 -- ewd -- DECchip 21140-AA > > ... > > Testing the Network > Internal network loopback Failed > Internal network loopback Failed > Internal network loopback Failed > Internal network loopback Failed > > > 'sh dev' from the console reports the following: > > > P00>>>sh dev > dka0.0.0.1.0 DKA0 RZ29L-AS 0654 > dka600.6.0.1.0 DKA600 RRD43 1084 > dva0.0.0.1000.0 DVA0 RX26/RX23 > ewa0.0.0.2004.0 EWA0 00-00-92-A7-AE-CC > ewb0.0.0.2005.0 EWB0 FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF > ewc0.0.0.2006.0 EWC0 FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF > ewd0.0.0.2007.0 EWD0 FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF > pka0.7.0.1.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 > pkb0.7.0.6.0 PKB0 SCSI Bus ID 7 > > > 'sh dev ewa /full', once booted, lists the following: > > > $ sh dev ewa /full > > Device EWA0:, device type DE500, is online, network device, device is a > template > only. > > Error count 0 Operations completed 0 > Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] > Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W > Reference count 0 Default buffer size 512 > > Device EWA2:, device type DE500, is online, network device. > > Error count 0 Operations completed 0 > Owner process "TCPIP$INETACP" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] > Owner process ID 00000210 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W > Reference count 1 Default buffer size 1500 > > Device EWA3:, device type DE500, is online, network device. > > Error count 0 Operations completed 0 > Owner process "TCPIP$INETACP" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] > Owner process ID 00000210 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W > Reference count 1 Default buffer size 1500 > > Device EWA4:, device type DE500, is online, network device. > > Error count 0 Operations completed 0 > Owner process "TCPIP$INETACP" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] > Owner process ID 00000210 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W > Reference count 1 Default buffer size 1500 > > > Four NIC chips on a card implies a PCI bridge on the card too. I have the vaguest of vague recollections that stuff behind PCI bridges didn't always work as expected on Alphas (or indeed elsewhere), especially in the early days of PCI bridges, though in this case it seems to be getting a fair way down the configuration process in both console and VMS, and DEC-manufactured quad adapters such as the DE504 (which is another quad 21140 card) were in the VMS SPD iirc, so maybe something else is causing your problems. The "internal network loopback Failed" doesn't look good, and the console-reported MAC address of FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF doesn't look good either - presumably you're cable is in the connector with the sensible MAC address (no I don't know which one it is, so I can only suggest trying all four). Considering the likely age of your "new" box, vs the era when production PCI bridges started appearing, you might also want to check the age of your console firmware and look into whether a more recent firmware update exists, there may even be specific fixes for PCI bridge config problems e.g. like [1]. Have you looked at the possibility of a totally different but still VMS-supported NIC such as the 3X-DE600-AA (similar to an Intel EtherExpress/Pro 100+ (?), based on Intel's 82559 chip, which may be in wider circulation than the DEC-badged ones)? The same Google search which found [1] (+DE504 +Adaptec) also finds a Nottingham company who claim to have a variety of more mainstream DEC NICs in stock, but no prices are mentioned. Doubtless other UK suppliers exist too. I'd be very tempted to keep an eye open for a known good-for-VMS card with just one adapter, at a reasonable price; e.g. there's a DE500 on Ebay right now (in Canada :(). Failing that, there are sometimes some generic 21x40/tulip-based cards on the market but care is needed - I have a couple of Davicom ones which were dirt cheap and allegedly tulip compatible, but although the non-VMS box they're in recognises and configures them as tulips by default, they don't actually pass traffic unless you inhibit the tulip driver and use the davicom-specific dmfe driver. I'm kind of surprised an Adaptec-badged one is recognised as a quad DE500, maybe not so surprised that it doesn't work right. But at the price I paid for my "nearly tulip compatible" one (<£5?) they'd not be too much money wasted. Not a huge amount of help, is it? Good luck John [1] http://www.beowulf.org/pipermail/tulip/1998-September/000217.html mentions an issue with Alpha console firmware which didn't do the right thing with PCI bridges ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:51:29 -0800 (PST) From: witewulf@gmail.com Subject: Re: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Message-ID: <59abc370-5c09-4cc3-bf05-d41b7c5feedf@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On 7 Feb, 21:43, "John Wallace" wrote: > Four NIC chips on a card implies a PCI bridge on the card too. I have the > vaguest of vague recollections that stuff behind PCI bridges didn't always > work as expected on Alphas (or indeed elsewhere), especially in the early > days of PCI bridges, though in this case it seems to be getting a fair way > down the configuration process in both console and VMS, and DEC-manufactured > quad adapters such as the DE504 (which is another quad 21140 card) were in > the VMS SPD iirc, so maybe something else is causing your problems. Ah, that all makes sense, I didn't realise those things had their own, internal, PCI bridge. > The "internal network loopback Failed" doesn't look good, and the > console-reported MAC address of FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF doesn't look good either - > presumably you're cable is in the connector with the sensible MAC address > (no I don't know which one it is, so I can only suggest trying all four). Indeed, not promising. I'm assuming only one of the NICs is actually 'working' as only the top one has an activity light lit when connected to the switch. One would assume that this is the one reporting a 'real' MAC address. > Considering the likely age of your "new" box, vs the era when production > PCI bridges started appearing, you might also want to check the age of your > console firmware and look into whether a more recent firmware update exists, > there may even be specific fixes for PCI bridge config problems e.g. like > [1]. This was the first I did when I got the machine. It's running 5.3-6 which is, I believe, the latest for that machine. > Have you looked at the possibility of a totally different but still > VMS-supported NIC such as the 3X-DE600-AA (similar to an Intel > EtherExpress/Pro 100+ (?), based on Intel's 82559 chip, which may be in > wider circulation than the DEC-badged ones)? Yes, next stop is probably ebay, I was just trying to get the machine up and running with what I had to hand before spending any money (I may be living in Nottinghamshire but I'm still a Yorkshireman at heart). > Failing that, there are sometimes some generic > 21x40/tulip-based cards on the market but care is needed - I have a couple > of Davicom ones which were dirt cheap and allegedly tulip compatible, but > although the non-VMS box they're in recognises and configures them as tulips > by default, they don't actually pass traffic unless you inhibit the tulip > driver and use the davicom-specific dmfe driver. This sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour I'm seeing with the Adaptec card, tbh. Both the OS and SRM are identifying the card with very few errors and allowing it to be configured, it's just not passing any traffic. I'm sure with the right magic in a custom driver it would function properly. I managed to track down a generic Tulip PCI card this afternoon, too, the exhibited exactly the same behaviour. I finished the afternoon with a generic PCI card that looked very similar to a DE205 which, once taken all the way down to 10M/half- duplex, finally got the system online. I'll keep an eye open for a 'proper' DE500 or DE600 at a sensible price, hopefully I can persuade that guy in Canada to ship to the UK. > Not a huge amount of help, is it? It certainly is, John, you've at least confirmed some of my own suspicions and convinced me that I need to spend a few quid to get this working properly. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 04:11:30 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Message-ID: witewulf@gmail.com wrote in news:59abc370-5c09-4cc3-bf05-d41b7c5feedf@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com: > This sounds like exactly the sort of behaviour I'm seeing with the > Adaptec card, tbh. Both the OS and SRM are identifying the card with > very few errors and allowing it to be configured, it's just not > passing any traffic. I'm sure with the right magic in a custom > driver it would function properly. I managed to track down a generic > Tulip PCI card this afternoon, too, the exhibited exactly the same > behaviour. > > I finished the afternoon with a generic PCI card that looked very > similar to a DE205 which, once taken all the way down to 10M/half- > duplex, finally got the system online. I'll keep an eye open for a > 'proper' DE500 or DE600 at a sensible price, hopefully I can > persuade that guy in Canada to ship to the UK. > I have some vague memories of an AlphaServer 2100 (or maybe it was an early AlphaServer 1000) where some of the PCI slots were bridged from the others and that some cards would not work in them. I suggest trying other PCI slots, including slots currently occupied by other cards. Of course I have little confidence that an Adaptec card would work since it seems like their SCSI adapters didn't work for more than the first eight years of production in any of the systems I worked with. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:18:51 +1100 From: Phaeton Subject: OT: Hack contest Message-ID: <47abe5c1$1_2@news.chariot.net.au> http://www.news.com/2102-1002_3-6229577.html?tag=st.util.print Vista, Leopard, Linux to compete in hack contest. ------------------------ I wonder why VMS is not there... :-) Cheers, Csaba ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| http://csabaharangozo.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]: The bigger the front, the bigger the back. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:34:37 +0100 From: Sebastian Hanigk Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> [...] >> one of those is to join voluntarily foreign armed forces while >> possessing that state's citizenship >> [...] > > See my other post. Don't know if that is a recent change or something, > but I have known at least one German who was a voluntary member of the > US Army (in the late 70's) who was not only claimed by Germany as a > citizen, but drafted into the Bundeswehr. Sorry for the confusion; what was meant by my statement is that a person with citizenship of a state X and German citizenship will lose his German citizenship if he voluntarily joins X's armed forces - unless(!) he is authorised by the German ministry of defence or an inter-state treaty; I think that your anecdote falls under that exception. Sebastian ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 23:10:26 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <611hf2F1st95iU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Sebastian Hanigk writes: > billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >>> [...] >>> one of those is to join voluntarily foreign armed forces while >>> possessing that state's citizenship >>> [...] >> >> See my other post. Don't know if that is a recent change or something, >> but I have known at least one German who was a voluntary member of the >> US Army (in the late 70's) who was not only claimed by Germany as a >> citizen, but drafted into the Bundeswehr. > > Sorry for the confusion; what was meant by my statement is that a person > with citizenship of a state X and German citizenship will lose his > German citizenship if he voluntarily joins X's armed forces - unless(!) > he is authorised by the German ministry of defence or an inter-state > treaty; I think that your anecdote falls under that exception. Quite the contrary. The American soldier was not aware he was even still considered a German citizen. And, apparently, the German government was unaware of his having become an American citizen and joined the Army. When they learned about his being in the American Army they did not revoke his German citizenship they enforced the outstanding, several year old conscription decree!! Sometimes there is no accounting for the actions of a Government Ministry, American or German. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.077 ************************