INFO-VAX Sat, 07 Jun 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 317 Contents: Re: Aletered Persona surviving image exit Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:45:46 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Aletered Persona surviving image exit Message-ID: Hi, > I recall that after looking at the VMS source code, it was my impression > that an inner-mode persona could be cajoled into surviving image exit, and > therefore remain current after returning to DCL. I've just remembered the theory for getting a process to exit an image and return to DCL with the current persona being different than that of the natural persona. Basically the image (de)activator resets the persona of the process to the natural persona as part of the image rundown procedures, but it does this before calling any inner-mode rundown handlers; so my theory is that one of your Exec mode UWSS rundown handlers can reset the persona back to any permanent and inner-mode persona. Sounds reasonable? Dunno, never tried it, but I'm curious as to any other "solutions" or, more importantly, why VMS Engineering hasn't offered a supported mechanism for doing just this? Cheers Richard Maher "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:... > Hi, > > I recall that after looking at the VMS source code, it was my impression > that an inner-mode persona could be cajoled into surviving image exit, and > therefore remain current after returning to DCL. Never did it, so can't say > for sure, but it would certainly beat the old become.mar type poking. > > Also, if you do $persona_reserve from inner-mode then you get an inner-mode > persona. Very useful if your communication-server will do a subsequent > $persona_delegate to the execution server. IE. The execution server doesn't > have to call $persona_create from inner-mode to protect the persona in an > unprivileged process. "What's wrong with calling $persona_create from > inner-mode?" you say especially when it explicitly gives you the flags for > preventing RMS access in kernel mode. "Nothin!" I say; but I've always liked > the idea of reserve/delegate :-) > > And just so you remember, Tier3 (on Alpha) gives you the lovely > t3$persona_assume that let's a *completely unprivileged* process assume the > persona of the client on whose behalf it is currently performing work. Your > system manager decides to start up your server processes under username > "FRED" but if your code wants to start doing some file access or database, > or system, auditing then you User Action Routines can changed the process > persona to "JACK" before attempting access. Pretty useful eh? > > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Joseph Huber" wrote in message > news:g0jb3d$23pu$1@gwdu112.gwdg.de... > > JKB wrote: > > > > > Other question... Is there a equivalent of 'su' unix command ? > > > > > > > As others told already, there is no direct equivalent. > > But VMS has the $persona services, which lets Your process assume the > > personality of another user. > > > > And there is already a program PERSONA on the freeware CD (and in > > Hunters archive I think), which works almost identical to su root: > > PERSONA SYSTEM > > > > (Also the older HGLOGIN still should work on actual system versions.) > > > > -- > > > > Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:29:36 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: <8660a3a10806070629j600aa8a3r535aebab6477f045@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:45 AM, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Sue, > > Sue wrote: - >> This is to anyone that would care to respond. And you can respond >> either here or to my hotmail account or HP account. What would be >> your reason for not attending the Boot Camp or if you can not attend >> the HPTF. No one is asking me to do a survey it just matters to me >> what the issue is. > > You seem curiously surprised at how successful your colleagues have been at > reducing VMS to the status of a complete irrelevance in the IT industry. But > I'm afraid that in order to fully understand the attendance figures you must > first turn your question on its head and ask instead why someone would > bother turning up at all, let alone pay 1500 bucks for the privilege of > participating in a human bait-ball pushed up against the beach by sharks, > unscrupulous and self-serving HP employees, independant > contractors/consultants, and an assortment of suppliers. > > If you'd be so kind as to provide a more accurate demographic breakdown of > the 200 attendees (a long way from DECWorld Boston eh? no QE II then?) then > it might aid further discussion, but for the purposes of this post let me > provide my best guess: - > > 70 - Supplier/Partner representatives ready to hawk their wares like any > other trade show > 50 - Independant Contractors/Consultants touting for work any chance they > get > 10 - Or so, sponsored extras > 60 - The Bait-Ball, representing about 30 real customers who expect to > learn something > 10 - Clearners and passers-by making up the numbers > ---- > 200 - Total > > So, whenever any of the bait-ball makes a break for the coffee-urn, they're > immediately set upon by the consultants in a seagull-like frenzy. Whereas > the supplier-representatives are content to wait for the evening when they > get to roger them senseless on the partner round-table. More patient still, > the HP employees wait until the end for their pay-day, when they can distill > everything the customers said (or didn't say) into a conference feedback > report that will undoubtedly provide affirmation and vindication and most > importantly subsequent funding of their pet projects from HP for the next > twelve months. Everyone's a winner; chickens for dinner. Except the > customers perhaps who maybe walking away thinking "What was it we learnt > again? And why is my bottom so sore?". But the catch-22 is you know > *they'll* never complain 'cos their little OS jolly and shopping trip to the > States may be cut back next year. > > So they tell their bosses they learned heaps and it was company-money well > spent. Your mates get to tell Ann that all topics were very well received > and attended, although there was some disappointment expressed about there > not being enough Web Services content. And the suppliers and contractors > draw back on their cigerettes and mutter something about "What happens on > Boot Camp, stays on Boot Camp!". Let's do the same shit again next year? Big > pats on the back all round! > > So what's "new" this year Sue? > > . Blades? OK > . VMS 8.4? OK > . UCX still making promises? - Bzzzt > . Regular tired old suspects putting their stalls out on their pet topics? - > Bzzzt > . Someone tells us exactly how many VMS licenses are still out there so > someone's arse gets kicked - Bzzzt > . GUI interface for VMS 3GLs - Bzzzt > > Look, maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but why on earth would someone pay > $1500 for that experience when they can invest in an Adobe FlexBuilder > license or train up on some Linux or .NET or something else they're likely > to need once your colleagues are completely finished running VMS into the > ground? Shouldn't be too long now :-( > > Regards Richard Maher > > PS. And then you go and make some sort of religious statement by being the > only symposium this side of Tel Aviv to start on a Sunday. What's all that > about? lib$day_of_week must really piss you off. > RIchard, Why do we send people to boocamp? We sent people because we're migrating [large number, > 150] Alphaservers to Integrity, and getting "face time" (long pause while all those for whom English is not their first language surf for the online dictionary of American English colloquialisms) with the members of OpenVMS engineering staff gives us a "leg up" (again, scramblling for the dictionary) on the process. Just as the best teachers can be more fascinating when they go off-topic from the courses they are teaching, bits of knowledge that are discussed *outside* the sessions are often just as valuable as what is conveyed inside of the sessions. Plus, you get to hang with Sue :-) IMHO, it's somewhat presumptuous of you to judge the value of current sessions based on your prior experience. It reminds me of those who, as adults, dismiss churchgoing because it bored them when they were children. Admittedly, HP doesn't give VMS the publicity it so dearly needs, and some of the actions taken are inexplicable and to those of us who are "outside of the Blue". I trust that I can say without violating NDA that there were people with clout there who were actively seeking input from those in attendance; and if you had been there, you could have contributed your input as well. Not meaning to "bust your chops", Richard, but that's my take on it. Best regards, even though sometimes friends disagree- WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:52:11 +0100 From: "pos" Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: <484a927b$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com> >>70 - Supplier/Partner representatives ready to hawk their wares like any >>other trade show >>50 - Independant Contractors/Consultants touting for work any chance they >>10 - Or so, sponsored extras >>60 - The Bait-Ball, representing about 30 real customers who expect to >>learn something >>10 - Clearners and passers-by making up the numbers It is marginal if HP will continue to sponsor (ie pay for) VMS boot camps at all in this climate. Vendors are paying customers as well. Do you think that HP charge them nothing for the stands. Whilst no-one would deny that there is a smaller amount of OVMS business and a lot of local software companies in NH/Mass becoming increasingly worried about revenue, criticism is OK if constructive. Take away boot camp and what do you replace it with? VMS is a cash cow for HP: they will do the bare minimum to keep customers as long as customers take out juicy service contracts etc/ regards pos "William Webb" wrote in message news:8660a3a10806070629j600aa8a3r535aebab6477f045@mail.gmail.com... > On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:45 AM, Richard Maher > wrote: >> Hi Sue, >> >> Sue wrote: - >>> This is to anyone that would care to respond. And you can respond >>> either here or to my hotmail account or HP account. What would be >>> your reason for not attending the Boot Camp or if you can not attend >>> the HPTF. No one is asking me to do a survey it just matters to me >>> what the issue is. >> >> You seem curiously surprised at how successful your colleagues have been >> at >> reducing VMS to the status of a complete irrelevance in the IT industry. >> But >> I'm afraid that in order to fully understand the attendance figures you >> must >> first turn your question on its head and ask instead why someone would >> bother turning up at all, let alone pay 1500 bucks for the privilege of >> participating in a human bait-ball pushed up against the beach by sharks, >> unscrupulous and self-serving HP employees, independant >> contractors/consultants, and an assortment of suppliers. >> >> If you'd be so kind as to provide a more accurate demographic breakdown >> of >> the 200 attendees (a long way from DECWorld Boston eh? no QE II then?) >> then >> it might aid further discussion, but for the purposes of this post let me >> provide my best guess: - >> >> 70 - Supplier/Partner representatives ready to hawk their wares like any >> other trade show >> 50 - Independant Contractors/Consultants touting for work any chance >> they >> get >> 10 - Or so, sponsored extras >> 60 - The Bait-Ball, representing about 30 real customers who expect to >> learn something >> 10 - Clearners and passers-by making up the numbers >> ---- >> 200 - Total >> >> So, whenever any of the bait-ball makes a break for the coffee-urn, >> they're >> immediately set upon by the consultants in a seagull-like frenzy. Whereas >> the supplier-representatives are content to wait for the evening when >> they >> get to roger them senseless on the partner round-table. More patient >> still, >> the HP employees wait until the end for their pay-day, when they can >> distill >> everything the customers said (or didn't say) into a conference feedback >> report that will undoubtedly provide affirmation and vindication and most >> importantly subsequent funding of their pet projects from HP for the next >> twelve months. Everyone's a winner; chickens for dinner. Except the >> customers perhaps who maybe walking away thinking "What was it we learnt >> again? And why is my bottom so sore?". But the catch-22 is you know >> *they'll* never complain 'cos their little OS jolly and shopping trip to >> the >> States may be cut back next year. >> >> So they tell their bosses they learned heaps and it was company-money >> well >> spent. Your mates get to tell Ann that all topics were very well received >> and attended, although there was some disappointment expressed about >> there >> not being enough Web Services content. And the suppliers and contractors >> draw back on their cigerettes and mutter something about "What happens on >> Boot Camp, stays on Boot Camp!". Let's do the same shit again next year? >> Big >> pats on the back all round! >> >> So what's "new" this year Sue? >> >> . Blades? OK >> . VMS 8.4? OK >> . UCX still making promises? - Bzzzt >> . Regular tired old suspects putting their stalls out on their pet >> topics? - >> Bzzzt >> . Someone tells us exactly how many VMS licenses are still out there so >> someone's arse gets kicked - Bzzzt >> . GUI interface for VMS 3GLs - Bzzzt >> >> Look, maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but why on earth would someone pay >> $1500 for that experience when they can invest in an Adobe FlexBuilder >> license or train up on some Linux or .NET or something else they're >> likely >> to need once your colleagues are completely finished running VMS into the >> ground? Shouldn't be too long now :-( >> >> Regards Richard Maher >> >> PS. And then you go and make some sort of religious statement by being >> the >> only symposium this side of Tel Aviv to start on a Sunday. What's all >> that >> about? lib$day_of_week must really piss you off. >> > > RIchard, > > Why do we send people to boocamp? > > We sent people because we're migrating [large number, > 150] > Alphaservers to Integrity, and getting "face time" (long pause while > all those for whom English is not their first language surf for the > online dictionary of American English colloquialisms) with the members > of OpenVMS engineering staff gives us a "leg up" (again, scramblling > for the dictionary) on the process. > > Just as the best teachers can be more fascinating when they go > off-topic from the courses they are teaching, bits of knowledge that > are discussed *outside* the sessions are often just as valuable as > what is conveyed inside of the sessions. > > Plus, you get to hang with Sue :-) > > IMHO, it's somewhat presumptuous of you to judge the value of current > sessions based on your prior experience. > > It reminds me of those who, as adults, dismiss churchgoing because it > bored them when they were children. > > Admittedly, HP doesn't give VMS the publicity it so dearly needs, and > some of the actions taken are inexplicable and to those of us who are > "outside of the Blue". > > I trust that I can say without violating NDA that there were people > with clout there who were actively seeking input from those in > attendance; and if you had been there, you could have contributed your > input as well. > > Not meaning to "bust your chops", Richard, but that's my take on it. > > Best regards, even though sometimes friends disagree- > > WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:31:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: <484a9d49$0$12274$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> pos wrote: > Take away boot camp and what do you replace it with? Well that new user group, of course... (what is this week's name again ?) >VMS is a cash cow for HP: VMS was a cash cow for Digital. VMS was a cash cow until 2001 for Compaq. VMS is not a cash cow for HP. When they murdered Alpha, I suspect that the "cash cow" aspect went away . And to HP, those expensive plastic containers filled with coloured alchool are the HP cash cow. VMS is peanuts to HP. As long as VMS is cash positive, HP will tolerate VMS' continued existance. But HP has shown that it will not lift a finger to try to improve VMS' position. HP, of course, hopes to be able to migrate a certain percentage of VMS customers over to HP products like Windows or HP-UX. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:17:20 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: pos schrieb: > VMS is a cash cow for > HP: so how much milk do they make from this "cash cow" nowadays ? Last time I checked, BCS, to which VMS belongs, (among HP-UX and all other serious computing that is left from HP+Compaq+DEC combined) had revenues less than $4Bn per year, with a margin of ca 8%. If you break that further down to the tiny fraction VMS has inside BCS, the number is hardly impressive in view of HP's total revenue of $100Bn, with a margin of at least 8% as well. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: On Jun 7, 9:29=A0am, "William Webb" wrote: > On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:45 AM, Richard Maher > wrote: > We sent people because we're migrating [large number, > 150] > Alphaservers to Integrity, and getting "face time" (long pause while > all those for whom English is not their first language surf for the > online dictionary of American English colloquialisms) Hi William, super meeting you again at the bootcamp! Here is cute, not always polotically correct, resource for colloquialism: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dface+time > Just as the best teachers can be more fascinating when they go > off-topic from the courses they are teaching, bits of knowledge that > are discussed *outside* the sessions are often just as valuable as > what is conveyed inside of the sessions. Yes. > and if you had been there, you could have contributed your input as well. And it would have been welcomed, especially if he'd leave the axes he has to grind at the door. Richard has some tremendous ideas and enthousiasm, but his presentation skills totally suck (and that's putting it mildly :-). This year might have been less fun though, as his friend John A was not there for a nice debate over a beer or two. pos>> Do you think that HP charge them nothing for the stands. Correct. HP does not charge them, nor pays them. Free lunch! Cheers, Hein ( bait-ball stalker ) ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.317 ************************