INFO-VAX Tue, 24 Jun 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 351 Contents: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape LDDRIVER Virtual Tape Support - Was: Re: Virtualized VMS in clusters (general qu Re: LMF and abandonned products Re: LMF and abandonned products Re: LMF and abandonned products Re: LMF and abandonned products Re: newsreader client for VMS OT: Network gear pricing Tru64 file system source code now open source Re: Tru64 file system source code now open source Re: Very cool Ethernet speedup on OpenVMS Re: Virtualized VMS in clusters (general questions) Re: Virtualized VMS in clusters (general questions) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 04:27:45 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: On Jun 23, 2:16 pm, Ralf Folkerts wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > > [...] > > > I just checked Amazon.com and the book appears to be out of print! > > > If you have access to a VMS system, "HELP" is your friend! Also the VMS > > documentation is available on-line at HP.COM. Google for it! (HP's > > search engine couldn't find its ass with both hands!) > > Hi Richard, > > thanks for the hint! Well, I do use "help" for Reference-Purposes (i.e. > I know the Command but not it's Arguments). > > However, my Problem is mostly one of the different Concepts / Design / > Ideas / Semantics between Unix and OpenVMS. So I'm looking for a book / > material that helps me get into them. Thought that a Book that puts Unix > and OpenVMS face to face might be an interesting way to learn... > > Cheers, > _ralf_ I would suggest starting with the User's manual. Then peruse interesting commands in the DCL manual. Also, you'll need to learn at least the basics of at one or more of the editors. I prefer EDT for most tasks also use EVE from time to time. (EVE [built with TPU] is more recent.) Each has its strengths and weaknesses. (One day I'm going to make a list of these.) If you're interested in system management, start reading the System Manager's manuals Volume 1 and 2. After that, peruse the System Management Utilities Reference Manual. If you're interested in programming, others will have to guide you. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:04:51 -0400 From: sol gongola Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: <4860f1ce$0$7320$607ed4bc@cv.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> That's easy because a file is simply an ordered sequence of bytes >> and any semblance of "structure" is a figment of the user's imagination. > > Says who? > NO! NO! NO! Lets not start another OT thread about the philosophy of unix/vms/dos/windows and what is part of the system and what is not part of the system and what is added on. We've done all this before. We are gonna hear from those that really know computers and file systems and those that firmly believe that a direct access file, indexed file, SQL file, database file are all unique and unrelated to the basic sequential file. That, will go on for a few weeks. Then someone will mention "objects" and how special, superior, unique, they are compared to and not related to any basic structures as opposed to object being just another manifestation of a basic structure and that will tie up another couple of weeks on c.o.v. Please stop now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:07:30 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: <6K6dnce_qOWynfzVnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@comcast.com> sol gongola wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article , "Richard B. >> Gilbert" writes: >> >>> That's easy because a file is simply an ordered sequence of bytes and >>> any semblance of "structure" is a figment of the user's imagination. >> >> Says who? >> > NO! NO! NO! > > Lets not start another OT thread about the philosophy of > unix/vms/dos/windows > and what is part of the system and what is not part of the system and > what is > added on. We've done all this before. > > We are gonna hear from those that really know computers and file systems > and > those that firmly believe that a direct access file, indexed file, SQL > file, > database file are all unique and unrelated to the basic sequential file. > That, > will go on for a few weeks. > > Then someone will mention "objects" and how special, superior, unique, > they are compared to and not related to any basic structures > as opposed to object being just another manifestation > of a basic structure and that will tie up > another couple of weeks on c.o.v. > > Please stop > now. Too late! ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 11:22:33 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: <3tJ8arIX7d5I@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5YydnYsrxcsyj_3VnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Says me! You can create any sort of file structure you like but Unix > neither knows nor cares! Indexed sequential? You can roll your own, > but Unix neither knows nor cares? Direct access? You can do it but the > O/S doesn't know or care. You can do any of the fancy stuff that VMS > provides but you have to do it all yourself or purchase commercial > software that does what you want. You can do all that byte stream stuff on VMS, too, if you really want to. But on VMS I don't have to teach every utility every file organization. Why should I pay for third party software or spend my time doing something that OS have had built into them since the middle '60s? Besides, very few files are really byte streams. Most are disk blocks or tape blocks. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 11:24:11 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: <9bp6JpuwVVPu@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <4860f1ce$0$7320$607ed4bc@cv.net>, sol gongola writes: > NO! NO! NO! > > Lets not start another OT thread about the philosophy of unix/vms/dos/windows > and what is part of the system and what is not part of the system and what is > added on. We've done all this before. While that is probably more on topic than most of what gets posted here, having a thread and not a flame war is what the fun is all about. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:21:45 +0200 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: <92n7j5-bl2.ln1@boss.home.folkerts-net.de> ChrisQ schrieb: [...] > Hi, > > Just checked abe books and they list 42 copies, from ~17 ukp upwards. > > http://www.abebooks.com > or > http://www.abebooks.co.uk > > and in other countries. > > First place I look for books and generally end spending far too much > money :-)... > > Chris Hi Chris, thanks for the hint! I just checked the abebooks-Website but unfurtunately only found the "opposite" of what I was looking for (I found "Unix for OpenVMS Users" but am looking for "OpenVMS for Unix Users")... Nevertheless bookmarked the Site, as I found some other interesting Titles :-) Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:19:03 +0200 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: <8tm7j5-bl2.ln1@boss.home.folkerts-net.de> AEF schrieb: [...] > I would suggest starting with the User's manual. Then peruse > interesting commands in the DCL manual. Also, you'll need to learn at > least the basics of at one or more of the editors. I prefer EDT for > most tasks also use EVE from time to time. (EVE [built with TPU] is > more recent.) Each has its strengths and weaknesses. (One day I'm > going to make a list of these.) > > If you're interested in system management, start reading the System > Manager's manuals Volume 1 and 2. After that, peruse the System > Management Utilities Reference Manual. > > If you're interested in programming, others will have to guide you. > Hi, thanks for the Hint! I just located the User's Manual on the OpenVMS Systems Documentation Website. This really looks helpful (I did search the Doc-Website quite a few times before but never saw that manual). Also the System Managers Manuals seems reasonable. Will check them! Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:39:33 +0200 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Book "OpenVMS for Unix Users" Message-ID: Ralf Folkerts schrieb: Hi All who replied, while I usually prefer to reply individually to show my respect to each and every answer the number of answers got beyond what I think is feasable for individual replies ;-) So, thanks for all the hints given! AEFs hint was really helpfull I think -- while I bookmarked the OpenVMS-Documentation-Site @HP quite a while ago I always was looking for the wrong titles / in the wrong categories I think. The User's Guide and the System Managers Manuals will for sure help. Again, thanks to all who replied! Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:43:45 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just be so slow. I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be faster than using tape backup? Regards, Andrew Marlow ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 03:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <2d3ca92a-400d-434b-917c-ea3d397d95be@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On 24 Jun., 11:43, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > faster than using tape backup? > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow Is it possible to connect the disks to the Es45s? That's the easiest way!! Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 03:54:39 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: On 24 Jun, 11:45, vax...@chemie.uni-konstanz.de wrote: > On 24 Jun., 11:43, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > > > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. > Is it possible to connect the disks to the Es45s? > > That's the easiest way!! It is indeed. Unfortunately that can't be done on this particular occasion. There is some sort of access problem (not sure exactly what). That was going to be the way it was going to be done. But talk is now of using tapes. I was hoping there might be another (faster) way. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:59:24 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <4860d391$0$10738$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. If you can hook an ethernet cable between the two, you can then make transfers via: -DECNET You can copy individual files, or send a saveset across ethernet and unpack it at other end. -MSCP (would technically require clustering licence). -FTP or KERMIT I would not recomment NFS because you get into a lot of reliability issue sas well as preserving file attributes. If you are able to physically connect the disks to the new box, then that would be the fastest transfers. But it would really mean that the old box is taken offline. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 04:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <83765148-6921-47b0-81d8-9a7876dab7a1@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On 24 Jun., 12:54, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > On 24 Jun, 11:45, vax...@chemie.uni-konstanz.de wrote: > > > On 24 Jun., 11:43, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > > > > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. > > Is it possible to connect the disks to the Es45s? > > > That's the easiest way!! > > It is indeed. Unfortunately that can't be done on this particular > occasion. There is some sort of access problem (not sure exactly > what). That was going to be the way it was going to be done. But talk > is now of using tapes. I was hoping there might be another (faster) > way. If it is a wide/narrow scsi problem this can be solved with an adapter. As others already told you: use ethernet. It might be possible to get a temporarly cluster license at no cost from HP. eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:08:11 -0700 (PDT) From: FrankS Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <37dc2cd2-8706-497b-a007-59c975b0c31e@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jun 24, 5:43=A0am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? What type of disk array is being used on the 4100 and ES45? 1) If they both allow hot or warm swapping of drives then I would go out and buy a spare disk (or two) and use that to move the data over. Install the spares into the 4100 array, make duplicates of selected drives, then remove the spares and install them into the ES45 array. Continue that process until all the files are transferred. 2) If hot/warm swapping one drive at a time isn't viable, then can I would next consider shutting down one system and temporarily connecting both arrays to one host. Make duplicates of the data and then you're on your way. That's assuming you can tolerate the down time. 3) Put gigabit network cards into both machines and (preferably) a dedicated switch and use the network as others have suggested. Of course, using 10/100 cards would work but it will take longer. Not that 150gb is very much in today's terms. Keep in mind that if the files on the 4100 are actively being used then you may not get a perfect copy. That would require a shutdown of the applications running on the system, so physically connecting both arrays to one machine may not be such a terrible thing anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:09:52 -0700 (PDT) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: On 24 Jun, 10:43, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > faster than using tape backup? > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow You don't actually say whether you need disk contents or actually a disk image. Also, we're assuming that it's an AlphaServer 4100 ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:49:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <6b1f88ba-9cf5-4596-b76f-d816ed31f886@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 24, 4:43 am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > faster than using tape backup? > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow I'm surprised no one has suggested clustering the two machines over the ethernet link, and MSCP serving the old disks to the new system for backup purposes. I'd take MSCP serving over FTP, SAMBA, NFS, or any other non-VMS solution. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:11:08 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <08062409110806_20200492@antinode.info> From: JF Mezei > marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: > > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > > be so slow. > > [...] > > -FTP or KERMIT > > I would not recomment NFS because you get into a lot of reliability > issue sas well as preserving file attributes. And FTP solves the attribute problem how, exactly? It would be nice to know exactly what "an old 4100" is, what kind of network and/or cluster software is available, and what "some sort of access problem (not sure exactly what)" actually means. "I need a solution to this problem." "Solution A is almost perfect." "I can't use Solution A, but I can't tell you why." In this situation, I'll want to spend a lot of time trying to divine which other reasonable solution might work better according to the completely unknown selection criteria. Sure I will. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:37:54 -0400 From: "warren sander" Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: if you can't cluster the systems together which would be the easiest way to move the disks you can use backup without tape. Now while not very efficient you can always do image backups of the disks on the 4100 to files on the 4100, transfer them to the es45 via whatever method you want to use (decnet, ftp, etc). Then restore the images onto the es45 disks. Also everyone has asked about moving the disks from the 4100 to the es45 which would be the best method. However, you could move disk(s) from the es45 to the 4100. Since you didn't tell us what kind of disks/array's/scsi/etc are on the 2 systems there is a lot of speculation. Some (most) newer scsi disks will run in degraded mode if put into a disk array that doesn't support all the newer fuctions (again you have to check which specific disks, which arrays, which scsi cards, which personality cards etc to make sure this will work reliably. And one that I don't recommend but for completeness... (again we don't even know the os versions etc). But you could always setup pathworks/samba and use drag and drop from share to share. Of course FTP would be more efficent etc but completeness. "Steven M. Schweda" wrote in message news:08062409110806_20200492@antinode.info... > From: JF Mezei > >> marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: >> > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The >> > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity >> > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any >> > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just >> > be so slow. >> >> [...] >> >> -FTP or KERMIT >> >> I would not recomment NFS because you get into a lot of reliability >> issue sas well as preserving file attributes. > > And FTP solves the attribute problem how, exactly? > > It would be nice to know exactly what "an old 4100" is, what kind of > network and/or cluster software is available, and what "some sort of > access problem (not sure exactly what)" actually means. > > "I need a solution to this problem." > "Solution A is almost perfect." > "I can't use Solution A, but I can't tell you why." > > In this situation, I'll want to spend a lot of time trying to divine > which other reasonable solution might work better according to the > completely unknown selection criteria. Sure I will. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: On Jun 24, 5:43 am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > faster than using tape backup? > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow Andrew, If there is licensing available for an OpenVMS cluster and for Host- based Volume shadowing, this can be done using the shadowing support while the system is in normal operation. Once the contents of the disks have been migrated, the old disks (and system can be removed) can be removed without interrupting normal operation. This is the approach that I presented in "Migrating OpenVMS Storage Environments without Interruption or Disruption" (slides available at http://www.rlgsc.com/hptechnologyforum/2007/1512.html ). If one does not have the prerequisites, then the best way that I have found involves the use of DECnet and a scratch pack. One brings up both systems, and uses DECnet Remote File Access to write the BACKUP save set to the new system. Then the save sets can be restored on the new system (if you have licensing for Host-based volume shadowing, this is an excellent time to restore everything to single member shadow sets, so that the downtime can be avoided in the future). The latter technique is basically limited by network bandwidth. With dedicated 100BaseT (or 1G), it can be accomplished in a minimal amount of time. It is also possible to do this in order of priority, reducing the size of the downtime window (e.g., archival data can be migrated in the background). If I have been unclear, or can be of further assistance, please let me know. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > faster than using tape backup? > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow Disconnect the array from the "old 4100". Connect it to the ES45. Use BACKUP to copy "DKB100" to "DKA100". If necessary, you should be able to install the SCSI host bus adapter from the 4100 in the ES45. If you are located somewhere near Philadelphia, I could hold your hand for a not too outrageous fee. I had to do this once, many years ago. I'd recommend bringing a good book to read or some other form of entertainment. You are going to be sitting on your butt and listening to the roar of the fans for several hours while the machines do most of the work. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:51:36 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, warren sander wrote: > Now while not very efficient you can always do image backups of the > disks on the 4100 to files on the 4100, transfer them to the es45 > via whatever method you want to use (decnet, ftp, etc). Then restore > the images onto the es45 disks. For that matter, you could do the image backups over DECnet to savesets on the es45, as in: $ BACKUP/IMAGE DISK$FRED: ES45::FRED.BCK -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:07:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: On Jun 24, 10:51 am, Rob Brown wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, warren sander wrote: > > Now while not very efficient you can always do image backups of the > > disks on the 4100 to files on the 4100, transfer them to the es45 > > via whatever method you want to use (decnet, ftp, etc). Then restore > > the images onto the es45 disks. > > For that matter, you could do the image backups over DECnet to > savesets on the es45, as in: > > $ BACKUP/IMAGE DISK$FRED: ES45::FRED.BCK > > -- > > Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m > G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) > Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) > http://gmcl.com/ Rob, WADU, there is an error in the above BACKUP command. The command should be: $ BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=NOBACKUP DISK$FRED: ES45::FRED.BCK/SAVE_SET - /SAVE_SET is mandatory to produce a save set - /IGNORE=NOBACKUP will ignore the NOBACKUP flag, if anybody has set that flag to comply with a requirement that the data NOT be included in normal backups. Since this is a change in disks, honoring the NOBACKUP flag is probably not a good idea. Since the system is quiescent in this case, I often use /VERIFY as a precaution. Other settings (RMS extend and multi-blocking/buffering have a significant performance boost in situations of this type). - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:28:18 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Jun 24, 10:51 am, Rob Brown wrote: >> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, warren sander wrote: >>> Now while not very efficient you can always do image backups of the >>> disks on the 4100 to files on the 4100, transfer them to the es45 >>> via whatever method you want to use (decnet, ftp, etc). Then restore >>> the images onto the es45 disks. >> For that matter, you could do the image backups over DECnet to >> savesets on the es45, as in: >> >> $ BACKUP/IMAGE DISK$FRED: ES45::FRED.BCK >> >> -- >> >> Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m >> G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) >> Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) >> http://gmcl.com/ > > > Rob, > > WADU, there is an error in the above BACKUP command. The command WADU :== ?????????? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 11:33:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: In article , marlow.andrew@googlemail.com writes: > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > be so slow. > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > faster than using tape backup? There is some reason you couldn't cluster them? If so, then DECnet will actually preserve the file attributes and run over any physical media you're likely to pick for NFS. But I'd cluster them, fer sure. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:41:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: <32ab91dd-c58d-43a3-98bc-ce5c3153f082@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Jun 24, 11:28 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Bob Gezelter wrote: > > On Jun 24, 10:51 am, Rob Brown wrote: > >> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, warren sander wrote: > >>> Now while not very efficient you can always do image backups of the > >>> disks on the 4100 to files on the 4100, transfer them to the es45 > >>> via whatever method you want to use (decnet, ftp, etc). Then restore > >>> the images onto the es45 disks. > >> For that matter, you could do the image backups over DECnet to > >> savesets on the es45, as in: > > >> $ BACKUP/IMAGE DISK$FRED: ES45::FRED.BCK > > >> -- > > >> Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m > >> G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) > >> Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) > >> http://gmcl.com/ > > > Rob, > > > WADU, there is an error in the above BACKUP command. The command > > WADU :== ?????????? Richard, My apologies. I was typing in an awkward position. I meant WADR. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How to transfer complete disk images without using tape Message-ID: On Jun 24, 11:33 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , marlow.and...@googlemail.com writes: > > > I am considering how to move a system from an old 4100 to an ES45. The > > 4100 has a disk array with several large disks giving a total capacity > > of around 150 GB. This all has to be transferred to the ES45s. Any > > ideas how to do this other than by tape please? TK50 backups will just > > be so slow. > > > I was thinking if there was any way to hook up the 2 machines via a > > dedicated hub could the 4100 disks be made visible via some kind of > > NFS software? Is samba available for OpenVMS? Would a network copy be > > faster than using tape backup? > > There is some reason you couldn't cluster them? If so, then > DECnet will actually preserve the file attributes and run over > any physical media you're likely to pick for NFS. > > But I'd cluster them, fer sure. Bob, At least a DECnet connection to be sure. A cluster would make things easier. However, DECnet would be used for a saveset. Otherwise. it is more work to recreate the directory structure, protections, ownerships, etc. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:07:03 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: LDDRIVER Virtual Tape Support - Was: Re: Virtualized VMS in clusters (general qu Message-ID: In article <485f511c$0$14356$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> wrote: > Minor nit: LMdriver does not exist, although you get an LM device > if you use virtual tapes. Underneath it's still SYS$LDDRIVER which > looks like a tape or a disk, depending on the way it is connected > with sysman. Thanks for the correction. > Glad to hear the the virtual tape is doing its job. It took a long > time to devlop. > I can assure you that it's very much appreciated here :-) Which reminds me, I really ought to write up what I did. One thing I have learnt is that LDDRIVER's virtual tape support is extremely useful for developing backup procedures, Off the top of my head: a) with today's large tape capacities, testing tape continuation can be very time consuming. With a virtual tape you can create small tapes. b) accidentally knocking a real tape off-line can be a real pain, especially when you don't have easy access to the physical drive. With LDDRIVER, you can simply create another tape device, and use that. -- Paul Sture OpenVMS Freeware CD listings: http://openvms.sture.ch/freeware/ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 01:10:08 -0700 From: Chris Jewell Subject: Re: LMF and abandonned products Message-ID: <7rej6n5k4f.fsf@sjtufted.puffin.com> billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Why should my rights to the fruits of my labors ever expire? Copyright and patent are NOT inherent natural rights, as are the ownership rights in a physical object which I have made with my own hands, or crops which I have grown by my own labor. My right to hold or sell what I have made may be arguably natural, but the privilege of prohibing other people from copying or using my ideas is a legal artifact established for a particular public purpose. Copyright and patent are granted for a limited time[0], so that by encouraging the efforts of authors and inventors, their works will eventually enrich the public domain. If the exclusive rights granted by copyright or patent were permanent, then the works would *never* enrich the public domain, and the copyright and patent laws would serve no public purpose. [0] I realize that the "limited time" provision of the US Constitution is trampled on in practice, because every time the copyright on _Steamboat_Willlie_ comes close to expiring, the Disney organization and its buddies bribe the majority of the members of both houses of Congress to extend the duration of that and similar copyrights. -- Chris Jewell chrisj@puffin.com PO Box 1396 Gualala CA USA 95445 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:41:30 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: LMF and abandonned products Message-ID: In article <6cavdtF3f84fnU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article <485bc1a9$0$20523$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, > JF Mezei writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>> No pandora's box. It is flat out illegal. Just like faking licenses >>> for VMS or Windows or MS Office. >> >> Ok, just for the sake of discussion here. Say company X writes a piece >> of software that was last updated in 1990. Company X has since gone out >> of business. >> >> Wouldn't copyright eventually expire on said piece of software and it >> would then become fair game to start to use it without paying a licence ? > >Sure. Current Berne Convention rules say "50 years after the death of >the author" Not sure how author would be defined in the case of a >corporate work for hire, but 50 years is still along time. :-) > >> >> >> OK, lets take a theoretical case of VAX-Book. It is sold to SSI >> technologies in the 1990s. Since then, SSI hasn't developped it, but >> remains in business due to other products. >> >> What does SSI have to do to keep "ownership" of VAX-Book and prevent the >> copyright from lapsing ? Just fill out some form every 5 years ? > >Probably nothing. But, they could always just modify some piece of it >with a new copyright every year or so and there is no requirement that >they release it outside of the corporation. > But surely that would be a new derived work and would not affect the copyright period for the original work. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 11:47:25 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: LMF and abandonned products Message-ID: <4860decd$0$11635$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <6cavumF3f84fnU5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>> No pandora's box. It is flat out illegal. Just like faking licenses >>>> for VMS or Windows or MS Office. >>> >>> Ok, just for the sake of discussion here. Say company X writes a piece >>> of software that was last updated in 1990. Company X has since gone out >>> of business. >>> >>> Wouldn't copyright eventually expire on said piece of software and it >>> would then become fair game to start to use it without paying a licence ? >>> >>> >>> OK, lets take a theoretical case of VAX-Book. It is sold to SSI >>> technologies in the 1990s. Since then, SSI hasn't developped it, but >>> remains in business due to other products. >>> >>> What does SSI have to do to keep "ownership" of VAX-Book and prevent the >>> copyright from lapsing ? Just fill out some form every 5 years ? >> >> ISTR that copyright is good for fifty years or the life of the author, >> whichever is greater. > >Berne Convention says 50 years after the death of the author. US CODE: Title 17, Chapter 3, Section 302 (a,b,c) Duration of Copyright: Works created on or after January 1, 1978 says: (a) IN GENERAL. -- Copyright in a work created on or after January 1, 1978, subsists from its creation and, except as provided by the following sub- sections, endures for a term consisting of the life of the author and 70 years after the author's death. (b) JOIN WORKS. -- In the case of a joint work prepared by two or more authors who did not work for hire, the copyright endures for a term consisting of the life of the last surviving author and 70 years after such surviving author's death. (c) ANONYMOUS WORKS, PSEUDONYMOUS WORKS, AND WORKS MADE FOR HIRE. -- In the case of an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publica- tion, or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. {...} -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 11:30:33 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: LMF and abandonned products Message-ID: In article <7rej6n5k4f.fsf@sjtufted.puffin.com>, Chris Jewell writes: > > Copyright and patent are NOT inherent natural rights, as are the > ownership rights in a physical object which I have made with my own > hands, or crops which I have grown by my own labor. I see nothing natural or inherent in any of these, they are all conventions of our society which some other societies have not needed. But I do like having them recognised by law. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:33:28 -0600 From: Jim Mehlhop Subject: Re: newsreader client for VMS Message-ID: <48612FE8.1060304@qwest.net> This was posted from Compaq Secure Web Browser with a user/pass authenticated NNTP server from my ISP. Not sure about posting anything with headers. Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > For about 15 years I have been using NEWSRDR and am very happy with it. > > A weakness of NEWSRDR is the lack of ability to post an article, > including headers, "as is". I need to do this for a newsgroup I > moderate. Several years ago, the author of NEWSRDR was kind enough to > provide me with a standalone program to do just that. This works fine > when posting to an NNTP server I have normal access to. > > Unfortunately, the various servers I have been using are becoming > unreliable. (Most servers I have access to won't allow the posting of > moderated articles.) As a result, I have obtained a password-protected > account on a new server. However, my standalone program won't work in > this case. > > Can anyone recommend a newsreader client for VMS which a) allows > password-based authentication and b) will allow me to post an article > "as is" including all headers? (Automatically added additional headers > are not a problem as long as there is no conflict with any which are > already present.) Ideally, this should be terminal-based. > > Alternatively, who knows enough to write some code to do the above, i.e. > connect to a server with password-based authentication and post an > article, including headers, as is? (I could then continue to use > NEWSRDR for everything except posting moderated articles.) > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:46:15 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: OT: Network gear pricing Message-ID: Does anyone here know ballpark pricing for these traffic shaping devices? Arbor Ellacoya e30: Support up to 64,000 subscribers at 4 Gbps speed. Arbor Ellacoya e100: Support up to 500,000 subscribers at 20 Gbps speed Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:52:01 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Tru64 file system source code now open source Message-ID: <56300$4860dac3$4c0aab67$8704@TEKSAVVY.COM> http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/open_source/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=208800252 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:11:09 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Tru64 file system source code now open source Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0042F2AB85257472_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" "John Smith" wrote on 06/24/2008 07:52:01 AM: > http://www.informationweek. > com/news/software/open_source/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=208800252 > > > Isn't this statement a bit as from an alternate universe in another time: "Besides Tru64, HP also acquired the VMS platform in the Compaq purchase, and later proceeded to migrate third-party applications that ran on the two operating systems to HP-UX. Many users, however, chose to move to Linux from Tru64 instead." --=_alternative 0042F2AB85257472_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



"John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com> wrote on 06/24/2008 07:52:01 AM:

> http://www.informationweek.
> com/news/software/open_source/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=208800252
>
>
>


Isn't this statement a bit as from an alternate universe in another time:

"Besides Tru64, HP also acquired the VMS platform in the Compaq purchase, and later proceeded to migrate third-party applications that ran on the two operating systems to HP-UX. Many users, however, chose to move to Linux from Tru64 instead."
--=_alternative 0042F2AB85257472_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:38:54 -0400 From: none Subject: Re: Very cool Ethernet speedup on OpenVMS Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:52:22 -0400, JF Mezei wrote: >Rich Jordan wrote: > >> Alphaserver DS15 systems have embedded Intel controllers instead of >> the DEC ones used on DS10/10L systems. > >Would they be native Intel controllers, or the DEC controllers that >ended up at Intel when DEC sold its ethernet controller business to Intel ? FWIW, I've had similar problems on Windows servers in the past with autonegotiate (10/100 enet). I've just always opted to set it explicitly so that I know for sure what speed the communication is running. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:55:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Virtualized VMS in clusters (general questions) Message-ID: <56361730-d415-402a-8883-a8545a3ea3a8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 23, 8:30 pm, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) wrote: > In article <4860077d$0$6017$ba620...@text.nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout writes: > > > > >on 23-6-2008 21:47 Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote... > > >> And can you also configure a host-id, eg > >> set $9$DUA container[1]="\\.\PhysicalDrive2" ? > > >Yes, you can, but the $9$ part has to come from VMS, not from CHARON. > >I'm sure that the CHARON software could benefit from something like a > >SCSI port allocation class, but I don't see how this would fit in the > >current architecture. BTW, your controller designation to VMS can be DU, > >DG, DI, etc. independent of the actual hardware. I.e. the SRM console > >sees DGA0 disks even if it's a container file. > > >> If I'm getting this, for the SAN device you still have to present the VMS > >> disk to the Windows box, and just be careful that the Windows box never > >> writes a "harmless signature" on the disk, right? The Windows box has to > >> have ownership access because it's going to send out the format/init > >> whatever operations on behalf of the virtualized VMS box. > > >Please define "ownership". Windows cannot mess with the disk assigned to > >CHARON because the CHARON "process" owns the device. All that's done by > >the Windows driver is low-level block I/O. VMS can, no *must* > >synchronize using the DLM. > > So of course you're running nothing but Charon on the Windows box, and nothing > but Charon can do anything to the device. OK. > > > > > > >> (But for corresponding coolness, this means you can run your virtualized VAX > >> off a fast SAN disk and be in the 20th century without having to get an FC > >> adapter for your BI bus, if those things even exist.) > > >This is what we CHARON buffs do routinely :-) > > >> Also, Charon knows what the underlying device is, but VMS doesn't. VMS can't > >> keep Windows from messing up your underlying devices because it doesn't own > >> them. Am I also correct that you could really mess up VMS by presenting > >> the same real physical drive under different names to the virtualized > >> boxes? All the Distributed Lock Manager has to go on is the device name > >> from the config file. > > >> (It's okay if the answer is "Yes, you just have to be careful"; I'm just > >> failing to understand how there even could be any other answer than that > >> based on what I've learned so far about the virtualized environment. There > >> are certainly non-virtual circumstances where you have to be careful > >> (dual-ported RA81s with write access from both sides, for example) too, but > >> not the same circumstances. SAN disks present with actual device names / > >> unit numbers, and it's on the SAN administrator to present only to members > >> of the same cluster. Everybody in the cluster who gets the unit presented > >> by the SAN will see the same unit, so everybody thinks it's the same > >> device. > > >On Windows, you can always identify a SAN "disk" (LUN) by is virtual > >SCSI ID. Instead of specifying "\\.\PhysicalDrive0" in the CHARON config > >file, you specify "\\.\scsi2: 0 2 1". So, the answer is indeed yes, you > >have to be careful, but a SAN administrator always is. > > >> This stuff is very cool. > > >Amen! > > Wilm, this is the stuff that I was incoherently trying to ask about in the > session at the Tech Forum. I don't think I made myself clear there, but I > appreciate your patience. > > Thanks! > > --Alan Alan, As one who worked with VM/370 many years ago, I make the observation that the fidelity of a virtual machine depends on the particular use and context. From an applications programming standpoint, virtually everything should be indistinguishable. As one gets closer to hardware dependencies, such as multi-threading on multi-processors, the precise model provided by the underlying VM does become visible. In particular, one must distinguish between the hardware that the machine is running on, and the virtual hardware provided to the "guest". They can, and often are, different. I was in one of the sessions on HPVM at the HP Technology Forum, and the question of direct accessibility to FC devices was asked. While my recollection (I would have to check the presentation and other's recollection of that session for confirmation) is that the question was along the lines of "Will we have access directly to FC devices?", I do not recall the question being "Can I limit direct access to (a) particular guest(s)?". The Ethernet switching would have to be switching, not routing, so I have not heard anything along the lines of restrictions to IP only protocols. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 2008 11:26:28 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Virtualized VMS in clusters (general questions) Message-ID: In article <00A7B8DF.3CD7C9DD@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) writes: > > So of course you're running nothing but Charon on the Windows box, and nothing > but Charon can do anything to the device. OK. > I wish the owners of Charon would put their emulator right on the hardware and get rid of the Windows layer. A bootable emulator, now that could solve some problems. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.351 ************************