INFO-VAX Sat, 27 Sep 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 521 Contents: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Re: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: quoting characters Re: quoting characters Re: quoting characters quoting characters (was: Text file generated by a Cobol application) Re: setting IP in MP on RX2600 Re: setting IP in MP on RX2600 Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Sep 08 13:53:16 EDT From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > On Sep 25, 2:48=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: >> Simon Clubley wrote: >> > In article , "Richard B. = > Gilbert" writes: >> >> Please remember that DCL IS a Command Line Interpreter and NOT really = > a >> >> programming language! =A0 > > Exactly. It should be just interpretting my command and yet it does > not know how to when I need a minor correction. > >>I know it has been used to write applications but >> >> it's certainly not the primary purpose. > > Beg to differ!! > >>=A0There are certainly better >> >> tools available for writing most applications. > > Who is talking applications? > I'm being hindered by this issue using straight simple commands like > "edit/fdl/nointeractive/analy=3Dxx.fdl_analysis_nodex_20080808/ > output=3Dyy.fdl_tuned yy.fdl_design while cutting and pasting half > decent self explanatory file specs. Ditto for many a backup, link and > pipe command. > >> DCL and the terminal driver are behaving as documented. > > And it is broken... as documented > >> =A0It has been this way since I came on board in 1984. > > Yes, it has been broken for ever and OpenVMS Engineering has been too > lame to fix it while they still had the resources to do so. Agreed. I'm not the least bit surprised it was never fixed. Circa 1987, in front of a large crowd at a DECUS symposium VMS Advanced Q&A in Anaheim, VMS Engineering made a commitment to fix a simple bug in the terminal driver. A bug which I had SPRed with multiple followups. The fix required a simple one line patch to the driver (a patch which I made locally to multiple VMS versions). The bug remains to this day. A decade or so (believe it or not) after the symposium, I received a call from DEC wanting to know if I was satisfied with the resolution to my SPR. At that point we now longer used the broken feature, and DEC appeared to be happy that the issue had been "properly" handled. The whole issue wouldn't have been so bad if it hadn't been a day one bug in a new feature. A feature which was initially added to the driver for us under contract by local DEC software support, however I never found out if VMS Engineering added the feature independently or based their addition on the local support patches. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:27:17 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: <54c74bd9-a1c5-4df0-863f-8a51697371ff@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Sep 24, 4:47=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , clubley@remove_me.eis= ner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > > > Automatic retention of command history, including the automatic merging= of > > just the new commands from that session into the command history file. > > =A0 =A0Command history retention in files has security implications. I'd be quite happy with being with just being able to use RECALL/OUT in a command procedure. This way I could use my FILTER command procedure search for strings in the recall buffer. Yeah, let me guess: security implications. AEF [...] ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 18:53:57 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: In article <54c74bd9-a1c5-4df0-863f-8a51697371ff@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Sep 24, 4:47=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> In article , clubley@remove_me.eis= > ner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: >> >> > Automatic retention of command history, including the automatic merging= > of >> > just the new commands from that session into the command history file. >> >> =A0 =A0Command history retention in files has security implications. > > I'd be quite happy with being with just being able to use RECALL/OUT > in a command procedure. This way I could use my FILTER command > procedure search for strings in the recall buffer. > How would you handle merging the output from multiple simultaneous sessions (assuming that the current command history was loaded at the start of the session) ? In bash, only the commands entered during that session get appended to the command history file. That way you can have multiple simultaneous bash sessions writing to the command history file without each running copy of bash dumping it's own copy of the full command history into the history file. > Yeah, let me guess: security implications. > The way that I handle that in bash is to unset the history filename variable so that the current session doesn't get written out if I've used security related parameters on the command line. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:11:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "vmsmangler@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken Message-ID: I finally received a message from the Hobbyist site. He has been very busy with his real job but he will be sending the media this weekend. Thanks to everyone for their messages. Bill (aka VMS Manger) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:48:40 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 26, 12:17=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > > > > On Sep 26, 7:58=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <8d847f92-1f04-47ed-a827-bae920245...@x35g2000hsb.googlegro= ups.com>, > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > >> > On Sep 25, 8:58=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> >> In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b...@r66g2000hsg.google= groups.com>, > >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > >> >> > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote= : > >> >> >> In article , > >> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig-= --remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > >> >> >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uo= fs.edu > >> >> >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >> >> >> >> Yes, he did. =A0Mere days before sighting land. =A0And at a p= oint where he > >> >> >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educat= ed person > >> >> >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far e= ast while > >> >> >> >> traveling in that direction. =A0Contrary to popular belief no= educated > >> >> >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat. =A0T= he ancient > >> >> >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good= job of > >> >> >> >> computing it's circumferance. =A0So, based on the amount of r= ations > > The Egyptians figured out a way to mummify their dead Pharoahs, but > > does anyone know it? > > Ummm... =A0Yeah. =A0I knew that in grade school. Why, then, did the ancients know that the planets went around the Sun, but there was still Ptolemy and Copernicus? > > > Just because a people figured out something long ago, that doesn't > > mean it's still known centuries later. > > One would expect that something useful would continue ot be used. > What the Greeks knew in 100BC is not only still known today it is still > being taught today. Then why don't present-day Egyptians know the ancient secret of mummification and how those same ancients built pyramids? > > > > >> >> >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to hav= e had > >> >> >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious tha= t "The > >> >> >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea ro= ute in a > >> >> >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make= the trip. > > >> >> >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Ear= th than > >> >> >> > the correct value, > > >> >> >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%. = =A0A > >> >> >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted a= s > >> >> >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his. > > >> >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0even though other f= olks at the time had something > >> >> >> > quite close to the correct value. > > >> >> >> At the time? =A0Try more than 1400 years earlier. > > >> >> > Why does this matter? > > Because people forget. See above. > > People, as a whole, don't just forget. =A0And,a s I said above what the G= reeks > knew in 100 BC was still being taught at the time of Columbus and is stil= l > being taught today. =A0Nobody just forgot. See above. > > > > >> >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0Was this intentional on his part to > >> >> >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe = in the > >> >> >> > smaller value? > > >> >> >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and S= outh > >> >> >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and= merely > >> >> >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se= what > >> >> >> was there!! > > Or did he want what was behind the box next to the beautiful Carol > > Maryl? > > Apparently King Ferdinand did because Columbus turned out to be just as > good a huckster as Monty Hall. > > > > > > >> >> > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he= did? > >> >> > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect > >> >> > plausible? > > >> >> The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and sou= th > >> >> america. =A0The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference = of > >> >> the earth. =A0The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach t= hat > >> >> destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling = west. > >> >> Looks kinda like simple math to add them =A0up. =A0You do realize t= hat > >> >> Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. =A0Ot= hers, > >> >> refused. > >> > CBS refused Star Trek in favor of Lost in Space! > > >> Isn't that like being offered a bag of horse manure or a bag of cow ma= nure? > > Nope, and it's your loss. > > How is my belief that TV has been the biggest waste of scientific researc= h > the earth has ever seen my loss? That's not what you said. =A0I find much more productive things to do > with my time than to sit and gawk at "The vast wasteland". Like participate in this thread? > > > > >> > So what great riches was he hoping to find in the Americas? > > >> Actually, I don't think greed was his motive. =A0I believe he wanted t= o > >> discover and explore a place he knew his European counterparts had nev= er > >> seen. =A0But no one was going to finance that. =A0So he made up a an a= bsurd > >> theory about reaching India and bilked Spain into financing it. =A0And > >> got called a hero for his effort. > > Well, I meant motive. > > Fine, so Bob K. came up with a poor example in your opinion. That > > doesn't necessarily invalidate his point, and I believe he had another > > example. Let's move on already. > > Consider the topic dropped. OK. AEF > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = =A0Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton =A0 | > Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = =A0 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 15:57:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , AEF writes: > > The only problem with this is that for the same cost you could do a > LOT more unmanned stuff. But Hubble is the counterexample. Also, I > remember reading a sci-fi story about doing astronomy on the moon with > someone saying something like, "I can't imagine how astronomy ever got > started on Earth with all that atmospheric distortion." But I don't > know if this would be any better than the Hubble. In some ways it would be better than Hubble, which orbits the Earth every 90 minutes or so and can't point too close to the Sun or moon, so it can only image polar objects for really long times. A telescope on the far side of the moon could image ecliptic objects for long times. But operating in moon dust could really cut its light gathering efficiency. Which is why the James Webb Space Telescope will go to L2, and the Spitzer Space Telescope is in an Earth trailing solar orbit. More importantly, radio telescopes on the Earth have to deal with all our noise, while a radio telescope on the far side of the moon is shielded from all that. That would be a real improvement in radio telescopes. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 15:59:12 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , AEF writes: > > Why, then, did the ancients know that the planets went around the Sun, > but there was still Ptolemy and Copernicus? Nobody told the Pope. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:57:33 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: quoting characters Message-ID: <48dd4d91$0$12361$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Michael Unger wrote: > On 2008-09-24 15:36, "Bob Koehler" wrote: > >> I'll assume that "=B4" is MIME for one of the Microsoft "smart >> quotes". Please turn them off, quotes that can only be read on MS >> stuff are pretty dumb. > > No, it is "Acute Accent" according to the ISO-8859-1 character set [1] > specified in the header. http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/charset/charset.jpg or http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/charset/charset.pdf or http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/charset/charset.ps B4 is a fancy quote character/apostrophe. It can be seen as an acute accent. However, there are mappings for all accented characters so an "e" acute is E9 for instance, so there is no need for the individual accent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:30:07 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: quoting characters Message-ID: > http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/charset/charset.jpg Did Apple Computer sponsor Character Code F0? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:20:35 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: quoting characters Message-ID: <48dd8af5$0$9648$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Michael Moroney wrote: >> http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/charset/charset.jpg > > Did Apple Computer sponsor Character Code F0? eh ! Eh It is because this had been rasterized on my old mac with Mac fonts that had a few additions to them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:38:11 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: quoting characters (was: Text file generated by a Cobol application) Message-ID: <6k4ljdF609gqU1@mid.individual.net> On 2008-09-24 15:36, "Bob Koehler" wrote: > I'll assume that "=B4" is MIME for one of the Microsoft "smart > quotes". Please turn them off, quotes that can only be read on MS > stuff are pretty dumb. No, it is "Acute Accent" according to the ISO-8859-1 character set [1] specified in the header. > [...] Michael [1] ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/ISO8859/8859-1.TXT -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:02:58 -0700 From: Marty Kuhrt Subject: Re: setting IP in MP on RX2600 Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:32:29 -0700, Tom Linden > wrote: > >> I have been staring the shell commands and don't see how to configure the >> NIC. Display from shell appears ok, but from main menu it doesn't >> generate >> new lines but overwrites itself, which makes toggling through menu >> items a >> nuisance. >> > Never mind figure it out (with a bit of help:-) > > Care to let the rest of us in on the secret? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:19:18 -0400 From: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" Subject: Re: setting IP in MP on RX2600 Message-ID: From the MP> menue enter CM to get to the command menue. Then use the LC command and answer the commands. For bounus points come up with all the uses of the IT command. Hint one of the things you can use if for it to tune flow control problems. Forrest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:08:23 -0700 From: Alan Frisbie Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: Mike R wrote: > On Sep 25, 1:27 am, Alan Frisbie > wrote: >> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>> Alan Frisbie wrote: > >> Also, has anyone come up with something similar to this >> "tarpit" feature for FTP connections? My day would be >> complete if I could eliminate that group of script kiddies. >> >> Thanks, >> Alan > > No tarpit, but why not just close FTP e.g. > $tcpip show service ftp /full Because our customers use it to send/retrieve large artwork files. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:15:35 -0700 From: Alan Frisbie Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: Peter Weaver wrote: > When I first created this I was disappointed to see > that the attackers give up so early in the attack. So am I. It really surprised me. I figured that they would hang in there until the cows came home. Such wimps. :-) > But if you want them to go away faster you can try > adding a "SET OUTPUT_RATE=00:00:02" to the > LOGIN.COM and see if that helps. Thanks for the tip; I hadn't thought of that. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:30:27 -0400 From: "Steven Underwood" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:6k1ehfF5isepU1@mid.individual.net... > In article , > "Steven Underwood" writes: >> "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message >> news:48D90961.25918.20736CED@infovax.stanq.com... >>> On 21 Sep 2008 at 19:45, Steven Underwood wrote: >>>> I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX >>>> 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon >>>> solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I >>>> could >>>> not >>>> realistically even propose the solution. >>> >>> I hear that fairly often. But you are comparing a brand new box with a >>> used one. Did >>> you compare the 7630 with CHARON-VAX 6620? Nearly the same performance, >>> and markedly >>> cheaper than the 6630 emulator. >>> >> >> 6630 was quoted. No other option was even presented and I mentioned >> during >> the original contact that the current machine was not even using 1 CPU >> most >> of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option as well. >> >> What I would really like is to take one of the 2 Alpha's we currently own >> and work on porting the home built apps (cobol) over to it, but I'm not >> given that kind of time to work on this system either. > > If your "powers that be" decide to consider this option and you want > some help, I was a very good COBOL programmer back in the good ole > days. And I have both VAX and Alpha VMS systems available to me. > And, as a final clincher, I do COBOL more for fun than work today so > I could be had pretty cheap compared to the usual contractor rates. :-) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include I have forwarded this message to my work address if that happens. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:08:02 -0400 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <48DD08E2.23661.30117B8D@infovax.stanq.com> On 23 Sep 2008 at 21:54, Steven Underwood wrote: > 6610 [sq - corrected] was quoted. No other option was even presented and I > mentioned during the original contact that the current machine was not even > using 1 CPU most of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option > as well. Choosing the correct CHARON product version requires a deep understanding of the current application. The 6610 is only one of nine different versions of the emulator. As a CHARON VAR, part of my "Value Add" is to determine the correct version. If it's not clear what product version is the correct one, I stage a proof-of-concept. That usually confirms what amount of memory and CPU performance is required. That information then helps determine the product version. Summarizing the SPD's (which are posted publically), the product matrix is like this: Product Memory XM 128 k XM+ 128 k XK+ 256 k XL 512 k XL+ 512 k 6610+ 1024 k 6620+ 2048 k (3 GB on 64-bit Windows) The Plus feature makes integer operations 4x faster (not officially guaranteed, but it works out that way). I have clients claiming that they're getting 100 or more VUP's with Plus on the right hardware.. Except for Plus, the number of VAX instructions instructions per wall-clock second is about the same. The 66x0 family is a little faster on some things. And if you choose to emulate a MicroVAX II (in the Xx family), you'll lose some instructions which will then be performed in the emulated microcode. [Yes, it emulates that, too.] --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:40:56 -0400 From: "Steven Underwood" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message news:48DD08E2.23661.30117B8D@infovax.stanq.com... > On 23 Sep 2008 at 21:54, Steven Underwood wrote: >> 6610 [sq - corrected] was quoted. No other option was even presented and >> I >> mentioned during the original contact that the current machine was not >> even >> using 1 CPU most of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option >> as well. > > Choosing the correct CHARON product version requires a deep understanding > of the current > application. The 6610 is only one of nine different versions of the > emulator. > > As a CHARON VAR, part of my "Value Add" is to determine the correct > version. If it's not > clear what product version is the correct one, I stage a proof-of-concept. > That usually > confirms what amount of memory and CPU performance is required. That > information then > helps determine the product version. > > Summarizing the SPD's (which are posted publically), the product matrix is > like this: > > Product Memory > XM 128 k > XM+ 128 k > XK+ 256 k > XL 512 k > XL+ 512 k > 6610+ 1024 k > 6620+ 2048 k (3 GB on 64-bit Windows) > > The Plus feature makes integer operations 4x faster (not officially > guaranteed, but it > works out that way). I have clients claiming that they're getting 100 or > more VUP's with > Plus on the right hardware.. > > Except for Plus, the number of VAX instructions instructions per > wall-clock second is > about the same. The 66x0 family is a little faster on some things. And > if you choose to > emulate a MicroVAX II (in the Xx family), you'll lose some instructions > which will then > be performed in the emulated microcode. [Yes, it emulates that, too.] > > --Stan Quayle > Quayle Consulting Inc. > > ---------- > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA > stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" > > THe VAR that contacted me after I started at sri had a large template that I completed with the current configuration information. That was how they determined the quote... nothing more was done, but then I was not all that interested after that original $125K quote either. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.521 ************************