INFO-VAX Sat, 04 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 535 Contents: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! (was: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test Re: Login.template silly problem... Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: mounting USB Sandisk Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street RE: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:23:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: <48e6c67f$0$12381$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Richard Maher wrote: > you'd imagine there'd be a scramble to upgrade the tried and tested VMS > applications for a lot less cost, wouldn't you? Well you'd be wrong; > replacement System Take-II is underway :-( When upper management has been convinced , one way or another, that HP has no long term intentions to truly develop VMS, when HP refuses to commit to a port of VMS beyons that IA64 thing, then it is perfectly understandable that they would choose to exit VMS as part of long term plans. SWIFT was told by Palmer to forget about VMS. They did. They are mostly on Unix and some Windows too. And guess what, this isn't the cause of the worldwide financial meltdown. Now, you are complaining that this port of a browser is a waste of effort/money. What if you have an important remaining customer who has stated that they require GTK and some other middleware ? Porting a browser is the perfect project to not only port that middleware to VMS, but also to test it by compiling a browser with it before you hand it over to the customer. Just because YOU don't see a need for that software doesn't mean that there isn't a business need for it. Besides, this is a small cost to be able to give the C.O.V. peanut gallery some good news so that we stop "HP is killing VMS" messages for a few weeks. > here: - "VMS systems do not do Browsers, Web servers, email servers, > word-processing, spreadsheets. What they do do is provide one of the most > reliable, secure, and high-performance, server platforms available for > Billing Systems, Customer Information Systems, Ticketing Systems, > Manufacturing Process Control, Design, HealthCare, Retail, and so on. ". Funny, HP has the proprietary port of Apache for VMS, there is the OSU web server as well as WASD. I believe that even IBM has some web serving middleware available on VMS. And web serving is now an important part of a server since it is used a lot to distribute information to clients from the server. VMS has some professional email servers, PMDF and that other one whose name escapes me at the moment (they are younger than PMDF). P.S. please learn to trim your quotes so that your contributions are greater than the amount of stuff you quote. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:42:17 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: Hi JF, > When upper management has been convinced , one way or another, that HP > has no long term intentions to truly develop VMS, when HP refuses to > commit to a port of VMS beyons that IA64 thing, then it is perfectly > understandable that they would choose to exit VMS as part of long term > plans. I accept your point, but in this instance it was a case of changes to the ACMS/DECForms system taking so long to implement that made the *nix grass look a lot greener. (The fact that that the testing regimes on *nix and Windows seem a lot less rigorous than that on the VMS systems doesn't seem to concern anyone.) But I think you are being unfair to VMS Management in that you refuse to acknowledge developments such as Java and blade support. I willingly acknowledge that HP is supporting VMS to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, it's just that the money is being channeled to the bank balances of the people that brought us: Posix, Forte, Rally, ONC/RPC, DCE/RPC, DECForms, Bridgeworks, gSOAP, cma, pthreads, Java, WSIT, SOAP/Toolkit, Axis2, Ruby, RoR. And every time they used the same big-lie and pretence that you proffer here today about GTK :-( Why is your VMS web browser more important than Ruby or RoR JF? What about Java 6? If only we had Flash Player 9 on VMS then surely all the customers would come!!! > Now, you are complaining that this port of a browser is a waste of > effort/money. Yes, you got it! Exactly how much money is what I'd really want to know, but admittedly not as much money as Posix or DECnet/OSI. Perhaps in a league with Bridgeworks? What is the recurrent expenditure with these products for support? > What if you have an important remaining customer who has stated that > they require GTK and some other middleware ? What if the moon was made of cheese? You all keep ignoring it and I'll keep saying it: - Go out there and fight for new customers! Win - Win Big! Make VMS the Java platform of choice, the most used web-server on the planet! But, just in case you're as succesful as you've been over the last ten years, it might be a good idea to hang on to one or two existing customers, don't you think? So you forsee remaining customers who will need GTK? What about the ones I *have* seen that have been with VMS for twenty years and still to this day in 2008 simply do not have a viable way to webify or put a GUI on their 3GL applications. Digital/HP/Compaq know the need arises and have squandered yet more millions on TP Web Connector, ACMSxp, Bridgeworks, WSIT, gSOAP. I think a big problem here is that most of you are either retired System Management/Support staff (or hobbyists) that don't have to try and develop with the shit tools that VMS has for 3GL development! When was the last time one of you had to look at DECForms trace output only to see "You are on the left side of the equation" :-( Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBuilder)! I love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love Java Applets! (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Application Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price of laptops, PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the users!* What's wrong with them on the client? Why don't you demand Mono .NET for VMS as well as Java while you're at it? > Just because YOU don't see a need for that software doesn't mean that > there isn't a business need for it. Just because some under-employed wankers at HP get together and manage to stave off execution and wrangle a couple of years worth of funding for one of the many pet projects that never see the light of day doesn't mean there *IS* a business need for it! > Funny, HP has the proprietary port of Apache for VMS, there is the OSU > web server as well as WASD. I believe that even IBM has some web serving > middleware available on VMS. AND WHO THE HELL IS USING IT? Great, so BFU Malaga (pronounced "ma lager" in Perth for some reason :-) has served up 50 giga-terras or something, very impressive! What about Walmart? BoA used to be a big VMS user; is VMS serverving their WebSites? Vodaphone? Belgacom might be, I don't know? *OR* Do the use a *nix/Apache or Windows/IIS webserver to face the Internet and then just FTP their VMS data over nightly? So are you saying that HP's investment in Apache was justified given that a better performing WASD was already available? BTW, let me point out that I was one of the few/only to applaud the WebLogic port to VMS (Is it still there?) > And web serving is now an important part > of a server since it is used a lot to distribute information to clients > from the server. It is one option :-) If you think a connectionless, context-devoid, insecure pile of pooh like http should be your application middleware back-bone. But remember JF that guys like you rail against Javascript and Ajax so how can it be an issue for you? What are Java/Applet Sockets for? Flex Sockets for? SilverLight Sockets for? HTML5 WebSockets for? Full-Duplex Binary Stream oriented protocols; surely not? Nah, you stick to sending terrabytes of XML and SOAP headers up and down the network! Scripting, ODBC, JDBC (there are even some implementations of MySQL with new stuff like Transactions, and Referential Integrity) SOAP WebServices, it's all good! I guess the existing customer base can wait another ten years if they want to *integrate* their 3GL Apps and data. (Or move to LAMP like everyone else?) > P.S. please learn to trim your quotes so that your contributions are > greater than the amount of stuff you quote. Please piss-off to Wikipedia where you can do all the editing you like! (And someone may even give a toss) Regards Richard Maher "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:48e6c67f$0$12381$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > Richard Maher wrote: > > > you'd imagine there'd be a scramble to upgrade the tried and tested VMS > > applications for a lot less cost, wouldn't you? Well you'd be wrong; > > replacement System Take-II is underway :-( > > When upper management has been convinced , one way or another, that HP > has no long term intentions to truly develop VMS, when HP refuses to > commit to a port of VMS beyons that IA64 thing, then it is perfectly > understandable that they would choose to exit VMS as part of long term > plans. > > SWIFT was told by Palmer to forget about VMS. They did. They are mostly > on Unix and some Windows too. And guess what, this isn't the cause of > the worldwide financial meltdown. > > Now, you are complaining that this port of a browser is a waste of > effort/money. > > What if you have an important remaining customer who has stated that > they require GTK and some other middleware ? Porting a browser is the > perfect project to not only port that middleware to VMS, but also to > test it by compiling a browser with it before you hand it over to the > customer. > > Just because YOU don't see a need for that software doesn't mean that > there isn't a business need for it. > > Besides, this is a small cost to be able to give the C.O.V. peanut > gallery some good news so that we stop "HP is killing VMS" messages for > a few weeks. > > > > > here: - "VMS systems do not do Browsers, Web servers, email servers, > > word-processing, spreadsheets. What they do do is provide one of the most > > reliable, secure, and high-performance, server platforms available for > > Billing Systems, Customer Information Systems, Ticketing Systems, > > Manufacturing Process Control, Design, HealthCare, Retail, and so on. ". > > Funny, HP has the proprietary port of Apache for VMS, there is the OSU > web server as well as WASD. I believe that even IBM has some web serving > middleware available on VMS. And web serving is now an important part > of a server since it is used a lot to distribute information to clients > from the server. > > VMS has some professional email servers, PMDF and that other one whose > name escapes me at the moment (they are younger than PMDF). > > > > P.S. please learn to trim your quotes so that your contributions are > greater than the amount of stuff you quote. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:08:00 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! (was: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test Message-ID: Hi David, > Well you can start with Oracle applications both directly from Oracle and > third-parties such as peoplesoft. Oh, I get it (I think), we lost Oracle Financials, SAP, Cerner, et al cos VMS didn't have a browser - Insightful! > Digital/Compaqs view was that Windows was for the client, Unix was for the > application layer and the secure VMS was for the backend database. I dont't recall the decree, but if you say so. Either way IMHO, it is merely stating the bleeding obvious that Windows, OS X, iPhone, Next Lightweight Small-Footprint, Browser Hoster, (ok free Linux has a percentage too) is the client. VMS is dead on the desktop! All-in-one is gone. Now, if you and the IMM team can find some venture-capitalists to fund and share your vision of a paired-down, lightweight VMS for hand-held devices then good luck to you; JUST STOP FLEECING *EXISTING* CUSTOMERS WHO DON"T GIVE A SHIT!!! > Not bigoted. Just sensible companies. Having the same OS for the application > layer and the backend database layer meant reduced OS skills being required, So there are no "sensible" companies currently using VMS? You are the IMM team :-( Don't worry, Ann and crew are doing everything in there power to put an end to this. I'm sure OMX have already evaluated several VMS-exit options and given the constant reminders such as this that it is impossible to write good software for VMS without a browser, Java, WSIT, Axis2, gSOAP, NetBeans. . .they may well want to revist the issue. "Reduced OS skills required" What percentage of VMS sites do you imagine don't also run some form of *nix or Windows? I agree they certainly can't "integrate" these with their VMS boxes (without FTP or ODBC) but that's not as important as a VMS browser now is it? > Yes VMS development has finite dollars but I think providing what is now basic > OS functionality together with easing porting of applications from other > platforms is high priority. Again, you seem to be about to launch a new OS on the world and have a shopping list of everything you'd like in it (like that huge bubble-dome on Homer's car :-) But what about the *existing* customers that are footing the bill and getting *nothing* in return? Where is the Return-On-Investment for Java, WSIT, Axis2, SOAP toolkit, BridgeWorks? How many new Software Ports have there been? How much more bespoke software is being written on VMS? So I can have either a Intel box with, Linux, Apache, PHP, Perl, MySQL, Java,GlassFish for next to nothing (and get all those same "reduced OS skills benefits" of which you spoke) or I can get VMS with poorly-performing, poorly-supported, old versions of the same software and pay 100x more for it - I'm not sure I like your business model but good luck with that anyway. Regards Richard Maher PS. Let me leave you with another lamentable real-world example of a (soon to be ex) VMS customer. This company spent somewhere between 40 and 60million (currency withheld so as not to identify them) on a new all singing all dancing matching/clearing system (part of which was to replace their VMS systems). After this project went tits-up, for various reasons, you'd imagine there'd be a scramble to upgrade the tried and tested VMS applications for a lot less cost, wouldn't you? Well you'd be wrong; replacement System Take-II is underway :-( Look, you may be able to pull out one, two or ten examples of VMS systems doing otherwise (and not just hobbyists) but let me summarize my experience here: - "VMS systems do not do Browsers, Web servers, email servers, word-processing, spreadsheets. What they do do is provide one of the most reliable, secure, and high-performance, server platforms available for Billing Systems, Customer Information Systems, Ticketing Systems, Manufacturing Process Control, Design, HealthCare, Retail, and so on. ". Sadly, there is still no viable way of integratting the rich herritage of data, business rules, and 3GL code on VMS into a company's *nix or Windows based architecture. wrote in message news:gc5a9c$ssl$1@south.jnrs.ja.net... > In article , "Richard Maher" writes: > >Hi David, > > > >> Unfortunately this is the same mentallity which lost VMS all the database > >> applications by insisting that VMS was just for the backend database. > > > >Which "database applications"? And how does being "just for the backend > >database" lose dtabase applications? > > > Well you can start with Oracle applications both directly from Oracle and > third-parties such as peoplesoft. > Digital/Compaq told the companies writing database applications not to write > them for VMS. VMS was just for the backend database. > Digital/Compaqs view was that Windows was for the client, Unix was for the > application layer and the secure VMS was for the backend database. > > >> And then lost the backend databases because most companies wanted to run > >the > >> backend and application layers on the same OS even if on separate > >machines. > > > >Again, a couple of examples would be useful? Personally I have not seen that > >many bigoted companies. (Sorry, I have seen the "get rid of VMS" ones just > >not many "Well it can stay if we *only* have VMS".) > > > > Not bigoted. Just sensible companies. Having the same OS for the application > layer and the backend database layer meant reduced OS skills being required, > meant reduced problems with mismatches of database versions ie you could > upgrade both the application and backend database at the same time rather than > having to wait until the same database version was available on both OSs > (since obviously the application developer developed the application to work > with the database version available on the platform he was developing on > regardless of whether VMS supported that version). > Also , especially in the case of third-party developers who had probably never > tested their application with a VMS backend database, less support problems. > > >> Also porting SeaMonkey or other desktop applications will undoubtedly > >involve > >> porting various supporting applications and libraries which will aid > >others in > >> porting other Unix applications. > > > >Look, I'm not sure if everyone is deliberately missing the point or whether > >you just don't get it. > > There are certain basic requirements for any modern OS. > To my mind these include a web browser , email support and a modern GUI. > At last we have movement on at least one of these. > > Porting fairly complex Unix applications such as SeaMonkey needs the build > environment to also be ported - supporting applications and libraries > which will aid in porting other Unix software - whether that porting is carried > out by VMS development or by others. (It is a pity we are still waiting for a > port of UNIX Fork which would probably make this easier). > > > >VMS development has finite dollars > > Yes VMS development has finite dollars but I think providing what is now basic > OS functionality together with easing porting of applications from other > platforms is high priority. > > > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > > > >and every project > >has an opportunity cost on another, potentially far more worthy, rival. I > >would love all the software in the world to run on VMS! I'd love Donkey Kong > >and Super Mario (showing my age :-) or FaceBook to be there so Operations > >and System Management would have something to do while they're "Monitoring". > >I just don't think we're gonna sell more VMS boxes, or hang on to the > >customers we have by eliminating the need for System Management to have to > >FTP something over from a Windows or *nix box! Do you? > > > >Until the self-serving low-life that are making these funding decisions are > >*made* to disclose the number of customers that are being forced of VMS due > >to no support for their existing (and future) 3GL applications then sadly > >nothing is gonna change :-( Still 400,000 then eh? > > > >Once again, please ask yourself how many sites will have end-users (yes > >business users) that will be running this new VMS Browser? Then ask yourself > >what percentage of the installed base has these same end-users accessing 3GL > >code and Rdb/RMS/Orrible data on their VMS Boxes (but not for much longer as > >they're sick of being kicked in the teeth while those wankers come up with > >VMS for the iPhone) > > > >Go one, try to webify your VMS/3GL application with the "solution(s)" > >proffered by VMS Middle Management! Forget that, just try to put a GUI on > >your 3GL code in 2009! No? They're just legacy customers that don't matter > >(unless we can use 'em as an excuse to snatch a few more license-payer > >dollars)? Welcome to the IMM team :-( > > > >Maybe no users have PCs on their desks where you guys come from? I've been > >at 3 Telcos, a couple of banks, local govt, retail, and all in 4 different > >countries and funnily enough, I haven't seen one end-user or > >business-steak-holder or prchasing officer that's gonna give a shit that > >some System Manager doesn't have to FTP something to their VMS box! > > > >Cheers Richard Maher > > > > wrote in message > >news:gbvn9e$ar9$1@south.jnrs.ja.net... > >> In article , "Richard Maher" > > writes: > >> >Hi, > >> > > >> >> My primary desktop at home is an Alpha PWS. I also want an up to date > >> >> browser. > >> > > >> >How about an up to date Word Processor? Spread Sheet? Calendar? > >> > > >> >Should HP Middle Management pour the money into OpenOffice or just let > >you > >> >go for Google with your new Up to Date browser? > >> > > >> >Should we go for the volume market of placating WunderGreis VMS System > >> >Managers so that they don't have to sully their desks with one of those > >> >nasty little PCs or Macs? Or will *anyone* say "Hold on! What software is > >> >actually running on the VMS servers that these guys manage?" And is it > >not > >> >more important to keep that software on VMS then to port over a whole lot > >of > >> >crap so as to make the challenging job of "Monitoring" easier? > >> > > >> >Please give me the demographic of any company's staff that will be > >browsing, > >> >word-processing, and mailing with VMS! > >> > > >> >Then tell me how many of them access 3GL code and data hosted on VMS > >servers > >> >on a daily basis. (And are soon to cease doing so as HP/VMS management > >have > >> >given them no viable GUI or Web upgrade path :-( ) > >> > > >> > >> Richard, > >> > >> Unfortunately this is the same mentallity which lost VMS all the database > >> applications by insisting that VMS was just for the backend database. > >> And then lost the backend databases because most companies wanted to run > >the > >> backend and application layers on the same OS even if on separate > >machines. > >> > >> Also porting SeaMonkey or other desktop applications will undoubtedly > >involve > >> porting various supporting applications and libraries which will aid > >others in > >> porting other Unix applications. > >> > >> > >> > >> David Webb > >> Security team leader > >> CCSS > >> Middlesex University > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Regards Richard Maher > >> > > >> > > >> >"Rich Jordan" wrote in message > >> >news:6ea70f99-2b0d-4a60-93b4-064fddc18a19@v28g2000hsv.googlegroups.com... > >> >On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > >> >Koehler) wrote: > >> >> In article , "Tom > >Linden" > >> > writes: > >> >> > >> >> > Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean > >who > >> >> > really > >> >> > gives a tinkers damn? > >> >> > >> >> I do. I browse from VMS on a regular basis, without fear of some > >> >> web site attacking me via IE loopholes. > >> > > >> >My primary desktop at home is an Alpha PWS. I also want an up to date > >> >browser. At some point my VAXstation at work may no longer meet needs > >> >and get replaced, probably by an XP1000 or DS10, at which point I'll > >> >want a browser on it for work. > >> > > >> >Alphas have two major advantages right now for that task (over > >> >itaniums). They are more available (hobbyist side, and to be fair, > >> >also at work with real licenses) due to cost and 'hand me downs' from > >> >ugprades, and they are much more amenable to use in an office > >> >environment. Itaniums are bloody noisy and hot, even with the 'office > >> >friendly' kits. > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:02:32 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Login.template silly problem... Message-ID: <48E6CEB8.674EA6F2@spam.comcast.net> Joseph Huber wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > Joseph Huber wrote: > >> My definitions look like this: > >> > >> $ SHUTDOWN :== @CLUSTER$MANAGER:DETACH_SHUTDOWN > >> $ REBOOT :== @CLUSTER$MANAGER:DETACH_REBOOT > >> > >> where the detach_*.com files start a detached process doing the > >> shutdown/reboot, so they can be used without knowing how I'm logged in. > > > > I'd be interested in seeing your detached process proc.'s (.COMs). > > Here is detached_shutdown.com, detached_reboot is the same, just REBOOT at > the end: > > $ IF F$MODE() .EQS. "BATCH" THEN GOTO start_detached > $ depth = F$ENVIRONMENT("DEPTH") > $ IF depth .EQ. 0 THEN GOTO run_detached > $start_detached: > $ this_node=F$EDIT(F$GETSYI("NODENAME"),"COLLAPSE") > $ date=F$CVTIME("","comparison","DATE") > $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE - > /INPUT='F$ENVIRONMENT("PROCEDURE")' - > /OUTPUT='F$TRNLNM("SYS$LOGIN")'Shutdown_'this_node'_'date'.log - > /ERROR='f$trnlnm("sys$login")'Shutdown_'this_node'_'date'.log - > /PROC=SHUTDOWN - > /DETACHED > $ EXIT > $run_detached: > $ SHUTDOWN = "@SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN 0 SHUTDOWN YES YES LATER NO NONE" > $ REBOOT = "@SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN 0 SHUTDOWN NO YES LATER YES REBOOT" > $ REPL/ALL/BEL/URGENT "Detached SHUTDOWN of ''F$GETSYI("NODENAME")'. PID is > ''F$GETJPI("","PID")'" > $ SHUTDOWN > > DETACH_SHUTDOWN is just running loginout detached with the above proc as > input. *SIGH* I must be getting old. I was having trouble envisioning how to pass parameters to SHUTDOWN.COM in a detached process. My AIX-colleagues and their (single digits) years of experience are proving to be rather a challenge, and I'm afraid I'm starting to adopt the paradigms which arise from their limited experience/exposure. Nice code: simple, elegant, straight-forward. D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:21:09 -0500 From: pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: In article , Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >Michael Unger wrote: >> On 2008-10-02 20:30, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote: >> >>> In article <6kkfbiF89p6oU1@mid.individual.net>, Michael Unger >>> writes: >>> >>>>> [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking >>>>> at 15 or so Mbytes a second. >>>> That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for >>>> USB hard disks as well as card readers. >>> I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15 >>> Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-) >> >> Well -- memory "cards" based on Flash memory rather than on "cards" of >> punched paper ... >> > >Well, some of us old farts remember cards! If I excavated deeply enough >in my junk heap, I might even find a registration gauge! > > > Here you go a USB connected Documation Card Reader Interface http://www.quarterbyte.com/cardread.zip Here's one at the local Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/pictures/LARGE/VCF%207.0%20Exhibitor%20-%20Brian%20Knittel.JPG Bill -- -- Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:07:47 -0400 From: "Steven Underwood" Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: <7BxFk.1357$aM2.66@newsfe10.iad> "Michael Unger" wrote in message news:6km4akF8a9ubU1@mid.individual.net... > > and you can even write remarks onto them ... > Do you write in binary or punch holes in them :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:58:30 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: mounting USB Sandisk Message-ID: <48E6CDC6.DE98ECEF@spam.comcast.net> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > [snip] > Other than that the USB disks seem to work fine as data disks. The > performance isn't great but it's adequate (I'm using them to archive > some database exports so speed isn't a big issue) Well, USB was never intended to compete with Infiniband. Flash memory is really not suitable for write-intensive situations, either. It's write few, read many by design, AFAIK. D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:06:12 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <364a2337-1653-4b63-89a1-0471f6a09d6f@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 2:16 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > >> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? > >> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and > >> (probably numerous) sheets of paper. > > > There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing > > we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his > > theory had to explain. > > > There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed > > in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed > > experiments can be vitally important. > > Now there's a very good comparison. Columbus was a fraud or an idiot > who successfully sold snake oil to the king and queen of Spain. And > that is exactly how I see a lot of what passes for science today except > I have eliminated the possibility that the perps are idiots. (And, > in case your curious, I hold that Columbus was also no idiot. He was > however an exceptional fraud who suckered Spain into financing a > boondogle he knew could not deliver what he promised!!) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolve= s > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Bill, In (further!) defense of science: (Excerpted from http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-october-3-2008-2.html#i10 ) I mentioned in the piece on antibiotics how we need to celebrate science as well as point out pseudoscience. In that vein, I=92d like to give a shout out to Science Daily. If you=92re ever feeling like we=92re losing the battle, a visit to www.sciencedaily.com might brighten your day a bit. It=92s a chronicle of the progress science is making every day, and shows that despite what the mainstream media might portray, there are a lot of talented and dedicated people working to expand human knowledge. Just don=92t pay too much attention to the Google ads; the contrast they offer shines a brighter light on why science is important. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 19, 7:56 am, Michael Kraemer wrote: > AEF schrieb: > > > > > Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and > > general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that=92s the only > > commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and > > cosmologists and the like. > > > The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by > > Einstein doing basic research. > > What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? > It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and > (probably numerous) sheets of paper. Well (as I may have said before, but in a different though probably related context) it took all of previous science to get to the point where relativity could be formulated by Einstein. This included many, many experiments that resulted in Maxwell's equations, which contain c as the universal speed of electromagnetic radiation. But speed relative to what? The either? NO! Enter Einstein. Also, some optics experiments were of great importance, as well as the Michelson-Morely experiment, of course (though I think Einstein disavowed having any previous knowledge of that). As Isaac Newton once said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants." So there's the cumulative cost. Also, like anything else, some parts cost little, and other cost a lot. Demonstrating conservation of angular momentum for macroscopic objects takes a lot less effort that the same for the subatomic realm. Some cars are quite cheap. Others are very expensive. Spacecraft still more expensive. You get the idea. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:26:38 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <48e680fd$0$12360$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > The current "crisis" appears to be the result of poor judgment on the > part of just about everyone involved. While logically, you are correct, one needs to look at the fact that historically, the banks were the ones telling people whether they could afford a home and how expensive a home they could afford. You'd walk up to the bank, give them your salary, expenses, they'd punch it into their computer, the computer would check your credit rating, compute all of that and spit out "this customer can be given a mortgage of up to $X.". So customers had an implicit trust in a bank's judgement when a bank told them they could afford a mortgage of up to $X. And the government has had a low interest rate policy for the last 7-8 years now in order to try to stimulate an anemic USA economy. The problem is that buying chinese made widgets at wallmart on your credit card doesn't stimulate the USA economy much. The other big problem is that not only are individuals living on credit, but the country as a whole is via the fact that it consumes more than it produces. This is not sustainable. And it will be a very rude awakening for many americans to accept that they will have to curb their way of life. The current bunch have been telling americans that there is no reason for them to ever curb their way of life and that they will will defend every american's god given right to drive a hummer and buy as much gas as they want at affordable prices. It is very hard politically for a president to admit that the above is not sustainable and that things must change. Instead of the USA changing on its own, the changes are now being imposed on them by the credit indigestion and high oil prices. The problem is that USA car companies who worked so hard to convince americans they absolutely needed SUVs are now stuck in a situation where they have no small cars and it will take years for them to gear down to transform their production of SUvs into production of small cars. The USA economy is highly dependant on the car industry, and the problems of the USA car makers should be a huge worry to americans. It is ironic that SMART car sales have risen by 50% at a time when the USA car makers are seeing sales drop by 30%. It is doubly ironic that at while Chrysler was part of DaimlerBenz, Chrysler had refused to distribute the Smart car in the USA. What is happening in the USA is the perfect example of what happens when a governmnet (or successive governments) refuse to acknowledge a problem, slip it under a rug and tell citizens to not worry about it. Eventually, the problem surfaces and rears its ugly head because by the time it can't be hidden anymore, it is way too big and cannot be managed. Whether it be excessive credit or the environment, countries who don't act early to put the country in the right direction end up arriving at a precipice at high speed and it becomes extremely hard to change course before reaching it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:28:46 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <48e6817b$0$12360$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > BINGO. It started as fractional reserve banking; however, the fraction > real money that banks have actually held on deposit have shrunk to near > 0! In the USA, the savings rate is actually below 0. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:44:23 -0400 From: Bob Willard Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > > Well Fargo still has some cash because it just signed the deal to buy > Wachovia for 15 billion. Chase got a few thousand branched a whole lot > of new customers for a mere 1.9 billion. No cash involved. Reportedly, WF bought Wachovia in a stock swap. -- Cheers, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:05:50 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <48e68a2d$0$12366$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Another example of the relationship between Wall Street and the government: Citigroup had struck a deal with the government to get government help to "buy" Wachovia in the same way Chase "bought" WaMu. (Citi would only pay 2.2 billion dollars for Wachovia). Wells Fargo has offered a hard $15 billion dollars to buy Wachovia out right (aka: buy shares from current shareholders) without any government help. Now, Citi is complaining to the government about it. Looks to me like there is collusion between Wall Street and Washington to buy banks at bankrupcy prices even if they are viable. Bravo to Wells Fargo for making this obvious. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7650746.stm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:05:04 -0400 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <064301c9259b$b4fabe60$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 11:42 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street > > AEF wrote: > > On Oct 3, 5:30 am, "David Weatherall" > wrote: > >> Neil Rieck wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> For the longest time, people in the financial sector claimed they > >>> are smart while the rest of us are dumb. (Try getting an official > >>> explanation of "derivatives" without the usual insider lingo and > >>> you'll see what I mean). So it turns out that these > people are not > >>> as smart as they claim, which is not the same as criminal > (lthough > >>> we do have crimes involving criminal damage to society or > its citizens). > >>> Some people say this mess was created (in part) by the > synoptic view > >>> of Alan Greenspan who was repeatedly warned about the sub-prime > >>> bubble in 2002. But Greenspan knew better... > >>> > http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008/profile.html(be sure to > >>> watch the video) Other people say this mess was caused > (in part) by > >>> people clinging to their ideologies rather than meeting in the > >>> middle after a diplomatic dialog followed by debate. > >>> http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html(be sure to > >>> watch the video) If this crisis brings the Western-world > together in > >>> a dialog about why we are running stock markets like > casinos, then > INNOCENT?? I doubt it very much! When you buy a house and > mortgage it, you are supposed to know that you must make > monthly payments of X dollars per month for Y years. You are > supposed to have an income sufficient to make those payments > as well as feed your family, pay taxes, health care, etc, > etc. The customary penalty for failure to pay is to lose the > house! The agreement you sign says all this and, by signing > your name, you agree to it. > > Nothing guarantees the resale value of your new home! The > selling price will depend on the condition of the property, > the current market, the availability of credit, the property > taxes that must be paid, the condition of neighboring > property, etc, etc. To say that the resale value will > fluctuate can be one of those major understatements. . . . > > The current "crisis" appears to be the result of poor > judgment on the part of just about everyone involved. People > seem to have purchased homes and taken mortgages at the limit > of, or somewhat beyond, their ability to pay. Loan officers > appear to have given insufficient weight to the borrower's > present and future ability to pay the interest and principal! > They also appear to have ignored the possible changes in the > market value of the property securing the loan! > > "Not a good thing!" is a statement I think we can all agree with. > That is indeed "not a good thing". I'm not investment maven but from what I've been able to understand about this whole mess they are just the pawns in a botched gambit by the real players. That gambit opens with an investment market that purchased those bad loans along with a lot of very sound ones and pacakaged then into an equity based security and marketed it to the investment community. These securities were resold, repacakaged, anf further diluted in the process. This process was repeated numerous times over and over and the result was a huge pile of mortgage backed securities (MBS's) that were carrying AAA ratings and a big load of risk. The investment community and banking industry was getting "rich" on the flow and they were happy to leverage it to the hilt - risk? - what risk? - damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. It's hard to truly fault the home buyers who are being aggresively courted with offers of incredibly sweet deals. Or the small banks offering the deals when they knew they could resell the debt and make an instant risk free profit. The housing market was a gold mine and the big money players couldn't pour the cash in fast enough. Then the "impossible" happened and the hammer dropped on the housing market - home prices started to fall, mortgage defaults started to rise (really only about 6%) and the cash calls started coming in to the big investment banks holding all those MBS's. And as they began to sell off those MBS's at bargain prices to meet their cash calls they were forced to devalue the ones they still held. And that devaluation produced a wave of new cash calls leading to a self perpetuating downward price spiral that poisoned the market place and left a lot of really big investment banks with really big piles of mortgage backed paper that they couldn't liquidate for pennies on the dollar. They had walked way out on a very tiny limb and their only hope of avoiding a very big fall was to find some big time investor with enough hard cash to buy up their devalued paper at or near it's "rated" value and infuse them with some real liquidity. For good or bad we just signed the check this afternoon. If all we have to eat is a 5-6% default loss on the $700B I'll consider it a success. I'm not so sure we'll be that lucky. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 18:16:01 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <48e69aa0$0$12360$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Dan Allen wrote: > or near it's "rated" value and infuse them with some real liquidity. For good or > bad we just signed the check this afternoon. If all we have to eat is a 5-6% > default loss on the $700B I'll consider it a success. I'm not so sure we'll be > that lucky. What is happening now is an indigestion following a huge binge. From now on, expect credit to be much tighter because banks will not want to take risks (aka: USA banks will become stingy like the rest of the world's banks). As a result, the economic activity will drop back to a "normal" sustainable level. Moving from an "excessive" to a "normal" economic activity level implies a recession. Combine this adjustement to economic level with the woes of the USA car industry and it could be pretty significant. It isn't the Wall Street banks that need bailing out. It is the economy. If the USA were headed by a "Green" party, they would have long ago taken action to force the car makers to move to fuel efficient smaller cars and alternate energy cars. And they would not be suffering like they are suffering now. Instead, the current administration has fostered the "you have a right to a Hummer" mentality of refusing to move to smaller cars. The car industry is really a key to the USA economy. Lots of employees, and generates activity in many core industries such as steel, aluminium, plastics, electronics, components, transportation and whatever else goes into cars. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:47:18 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <00A80910.ECC96004@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <48e6817b$0$12360$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> BINGO. It started as fractional reserve banking; however, the fraction >> real money that banks have actually held on deposit have shrunk to near >> 0! > >In the USA, the savings rate is actually below 0. That is not relevant to the concept of a fractional reserve. The reason people, well this person anyway, don't save is that they are too strapped to do so after paying taxes and lawyers. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:55:59 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <00A80912.23A3CA76@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <48e69aa0$0$12360$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >{...snip...} >It isn't the Wall Street banks that need bailing out. It is the economy. >If the USA were headed by a "Green" party, they would have long ago >taken action to force the car makers to move to fuel efficient smaller >cars and alternate energy cars. And they would not be suffering like Take a look on the roads here JF, those aren't American cars for the most part. It seems the rest of the world's (Japan/far east and european) auto makers have been shoring up their economies selling theirs to the American consumer. >they are suffering now. Instead, the current administration has fostered >the "you have a right to a Hummer" mentality of refusing to move to >smaller cars. The current administration fostered this? Damn, I wish I wouldn't have missed the 90s. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 18:18:09 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: On Oct 3, 12:42 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Oct 3, 5:30 am, "David Weatherall" wrote: > >> Neil Rieck wrote: > > >> > > >>> For the longest time, people in the financial sector claimed they are > >>> smart while the rest of us are dumb. (Try getting an official > >>> explanation of "derivatives" without the usual insider lingo and > >>> you'll see what I mean). So it turns out that these people are not as > >>> smart as they claim, which is not the same as criminal (lthough we do > >>> have crimes involving criminal damage to society or its citizens). > >>> Some people say this mess was created (in part) by the synoptic view > >>> of Alan Greenspan who was repeatedly warned about the sub-prime bubble > >>> in 2002. But Greenspan knew better... > >>>http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008/profile.html(besure to > >>> watch the video) > >>> Other people say this mess was caused (in part) by people clinging to > >>> their ideologies rather than meeting in the middle after a diplomatic > >>> dialog followed by debate. > >>>http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html(besure to > >>> watch the video) > >>> If this crisis brings the Western-world together in a dialog about why > >>> we are running stock markets like casinos, then this crisis might be a > >>> good thing. > > > No, because there are too many innocent losers. There are many people > > are losing their homes and others losing equity (due to all the newly > > empty homes near them). Also, many businesses are losing customers. > > And then there is the potentially, if not likely, big cost to > > taxpayers. No, not a good thing. > > INNOCENT?? I doubt it very much! When you buy a house and mortgage it, > you are supposed to know that you must make monthly payments of X > dollars per month for Y years. You are supposed to have an income > sufficient to make those payments as well as feed your family, pay > taxes, health care, etc, etc. The customary penalty for failure to pay > is to lose the house! The agreement you sign says all this and, by > signing your name, you agree to it. Richard, There is an Op-ed in today's New York Times called "The Borrowers" by Bethany McLean. She blames more or less everyone involved (although to different degrees and in different ways and with different gains and losses . . . ). But while describing all the bad things that homeowners did she adds the following parenthetical remark: "Those who were lied to by bookers about the reset rates on adjustable-rate mortgages and other elements of their loans are in a different category." Are these people not "INNOCENT"? Please. Have you never been ripped off? Never bought a car that turned out to be a lemon? (You should have known about every part in the car and its condition. . .) Never made a mistake? Add to this all the sales pressure. Never lost a job? Never signed something you later regretted? C'mon: Give people a break! Consider the case in which you leave your house unlocked, perhaps by carelessness or hurrying to work, and have your stuff taken away by a burglar. Yes, you are partly to blame. But are you going to let the burglar off scot-free? I don't think so! Are you going to let Bill Gates off scot-free because it was all the dumb customers who bought, and continue to buy, his crappy operating system? I admit, though, that some of them are really dumb. There are those who even think Bill Gates is some kind of great benevolent genius, without which the country would be far worse off. I once read a letter to the editor (yes, in the NYT -- what else? :-) suggesting that we use the "genius of Bill Gates" to help something or other (blind people? I forget). Then, to continue this fun aside, I quote from an advertisement on the Op-ed page in the 2007-03-26 edition of. . .drum roll. . . . . . .The New York Times, placed by the Washington Legal Foundation. It begins: IN ALL FAIRNESS / The Rise and Fall of America? / These days, our legal and regulatory system seems to only create jobs for lawyers, accountants, and bureaucrats, while scaring away the next Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. . . ." and it continues with details and such (but not about BG or WB). > Nothing guarantees the resale value of your new home! The selling price > will depend on the condition of the property, the current market, the > availability of credit, the property taxes that must be paid, the > condition of neighboring property, etc, etc. To say that the resale > value will fluctuate can be one of those major understatements. . . . Well, according to this logic you should NEVER buy a home, for its value may plummet to zero at any time. And you may, in an unforeseeable manner, lose a high-paying job only to be stuck with a much lower-paying one. You cannot go through life without taking SOME risks. > The current "crisis" appears to be the result of poor judgment on the > part of just about everyone involved. People seem to have purchased I believe there were also a lot of ill-motives involved by at least some. For example, didn't these bankers and such iteratively pass off these bad loans and mortgage-backed securities to others, thereby washing their hands of them at each level? > homes and taken mortgages at the limit of, or somewhat beyond, their > ability to pay. Loan officers appear to have given insufficient weight > to the borrower's present and future ability to pay the interest and > principal! They also appear to have ignored the possible changes in the > market value of the property securing the loan! > > "Not a good thing!" is a statement I think we can all agree with. You also failed to notice the other things I said: Other losers include people who did the right thing and still lost much of their equity due to their neighborhoods having been turned into foreclosure city. How are they to blame? Also, there are many legitimate businesses that are losing customers -- some losing some of their biggest customers! (I have no references for this but I am seeing it with my own eyes and cannot go into detail here.) And what about those who lose their jobs due to recessionary forces that are a consequence of all this malfeasance? How are they to blame? Not a good thing, indeed! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 18:22:09 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <69778933-a759-438b-afa5-830b03352752@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Oct 3, 2:16 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >{...snip...} > >I assume he is referring to the fact that money is a fiction - it is just an > >IOU note without any backing If I printed a piece of paper and wrote on it [...] > >In the dim and distant past paper currencies were backed with quantities of Not that distant!!! > >precious metals - gold or silver - but nowadays their only value is what > >everybody agrees they are worth. > > They're worth everybody's ability to repay their debts which is, for all > intents and purposes, all money is today -- debt. Hey, if you can send some of that "debt" my way, it would be appreciated! > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright > notice, disclaimer and quotations. I'd be amazed, even thrilled, if anyone actually wanted to publish what I just wrote here! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:44:47 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Oct 3, 12:42 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: >> AEF wrote: >>> On Oct 3, 5:30 am, "David Weatherall" wrote: >>>> Neil Rieck wrote: >>>> >>>>> For the longest time, people in the financial sector claimed they are >>>>> smart while the rest of us are dumb. (Try getting an official > > Richard, > > There is an Op-ed in today's New York Times called "The Borrowers" by > Bethany McLean. She blames more or less everyone involved (although to > different degrees and in different ways and with different gains and > losses . . . ). But while describing all the bad things that > homeowners did she adds the following parenthetical remark: "Those who > were lied to by bookers about the reset rates on adjustable-rate > mortgages and other elements of their loans are in a different > category." Those people appear, to me, to have failed to read and understand what they agreed to. It does not matter, legally, what they were told. The important parts were all in writing! If you are planning to buy a house, I strongly recommend that you pay a lawyer to help you understand the fine points! It could save you much pain and more money than you paid the lawyer! I have bought two houses and have taken and retired two mortgages. I made very sure that I understood what I was doing and could service and retire the mortgages. Having paid for mine myself, I resent being expected, as a tax payer, to pay for other people's mistakes! -- draco vulgaris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:50:34 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: <48e6ccea$0$12369$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> AEF wrote: > homeowners did she adds the following parenthetical remark: "Those who > were lied to by bookers about the reset rates on adjustable-rate > mortgages and other elements of their loans are in a different > category." Are these people not "INNOCENT"? Please. Another aspect is that confidentiality issues prevent a new homeowner from finding out whether the whole neighbouhood is financed with sub-prime mortgages with people having 100% of value mortgaged or not. NOW, people would think about asking about the financing of the neighbourhood. But back then, people didn't know about the risk of having a whole neighbourhood with risky finance leading to possible market depression when banks seize so many properties at roughly the same time. People also thought that banks would never get themselves in a situation where they would risk foreclosing a whole neighbourhood. (aka: people thought that banks had proper risk management policies and evidently, they did not. What banks SHOULD have done (easier said with hindsight) is to foreclose, but turn the property into a rental property with the family making some reasonable payments. This would have kept many homes off the market, maintained the value of homes, and if the renter got into better financial situation, he could then negotiate to transfer the rental back into a mortgage. (Or if the bank found a buyer for the property, they could then sell the house) This would be similar to airlines. If you're going to have a plane go from JFK to LAX and you have empty seats, you might as well give those seats to anyone at any low fare instead of getting nothing at all. If a bank is going to have ownership of a home that it can't sell, it might as well rent it at some low affordable rate the the family that stayed there instead of leaving the home empty (especially since empty homes tend to be vandalised and lose even more value) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:43:58 -0400 From: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: > Having done device drivers myself, I perfectly understand GIGO. However, > not knowing too much detail of USB, I would think that something that is > common to any USB device like the number of pipes would be the same > everywhere. But if it doesn't, it doesn't. > Oh if it were that simple. A USB device is a collection of interfaces a device has to have at least one interface, and one pipe. It can have multiple interfaces and multiple pipes. On top of that each interface can have multiple possible configurations. As well as a device can have multiple components. For example you have a printer and a scanner that is one USB device with a printer interface which can be uni-directional, bi-directional, etc. Each of these components can have multiple pipes. Configuring even a simple device is a pretty complex operation. Forrest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:48:53 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" writes: > Oh if it were that simple. ... > Configuring even a simple device is a pretty complex operation. Really. How does "plug and play" work so well on PCs? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:27:58 -0400 From: "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" Subject: Re: USB device development on DS10 via Belkin f5U220 - OpenVMS 8.3 with 7.3-1 SR Message-ID: "Michael Moroney" wrote in message news:gc5sv5$i7t$1@pcls6.std.com... > "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" writes: > >> Oh if it were that simple. > ... >> Configuring even a simple device is a pretty complex operation. > > Really. How does "plug and play" work so well on PCs? Because for many even moderatly complex devices the vendors ship their own custom drivers. There are exceptions keyboards, mice, and disk like things are the most common exceptions. In those cases the vendors don't ship a product until it passes Windows hardware qualification. Trust me I have seen a lot of really funny things done by disk like devices. But when you poke at it the answer is it worked for Windows and that is all we care about. Make you code emulate what windows does. Forrest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:54:26 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <48E6CCD1.5F7907F@spam.comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article <48E41E4F.6C6FFFE3@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera writes: > > Neil Rieck wrote: > >> > >> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> > > > > It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the > > price is within our means. > > > > For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel. > > > > For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.` > > Don't see how. There is always SIMH which cost nothing (assuming you > already own a PC or something). And even real hardware. I have acquired > a lot of VMS capable hardware for nothing. I doubt I have more than > a couple thousand dollars, spread out over about 18 years, invested > in all my PDP-11 and VAX/Alpha hardware. Probably the biggest single > investment was renting a truck, buying gas and using a day to go pick > up 5 PDP-11/44's, a VAX and a bunch of other cool stuff. I also have acquired MicroVAX gear for the cost of the trip to go get it. However, this is the exception and not the rule. Even when I've put gear up on eBay for $1.00 plus the cost of shipping, I find very few who can even afford that. SIMH is fine for what it is. However, finding SE SCSI cards to plug in TZ50 drives, etc. becomes rather more of a challenge as the years go by, where the MicroVAX has the SCSI port on the back already. The current economic state leaves even less slack for those whose administrative (spousal) restrictions result in hobbyist gear budgets which are already severely curtailed. D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 22:12:49 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <48E41E4F.6C6FFFE3@spam.comcast.net>, >> David J Dachtera writes: >>> Neil Rieck wrote: >>>> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> >>> It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the >>> price is within our means. >>> >>> For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel. >>> >>> For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.` >> Don't see how. There is always SIMH which cost nothing (assuming you >> already own a PC or something). And even real hardware. I have acquired >> a lot of VMS capable hardware for nothing. I doubt I have more than >> a couple thousand dollars, spread out over about 18 years, invested >> in all my PDP-11 and VAX/Alpha hardware. Probably the biggest single >> investment was renting a truck, buying gas and using a day to go pick >> up 5 PDP-11/44's, a VAX and a bunch of other cool stuff. > > I also have acquired MicroVAX gear for the cost of the trip to go get > it. However, this is the exception and not the rule. Even when I've put > gear up on eBay for $1.00 plus the cost of shipping, I find very few who > can even afford that. > Is it an affordability problem? Or is it a shortage of people who want to buy long obsolete, and by today's standards slow, computers? I have a couple of VAXen: a VAXStation 4000/VLC, and a MicroVAX 3100. I haven't booted either one in years. If I want a VMS prompt, I go to my Alphas! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.535 ************************