INFO-VAX Thu, 20 Nov 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 628 Contents: Re: 150 year Re: Canadian Weather (was Re: In-house testing and patches) Re: More strategic resource allocation from the HP/VMS congoscente Re: More strategic resource allocation from the HP/VMS congoscente Re: More strategic resource allocation from the HP/VMS congoscente Re: OT: Former VMS guy need small free database Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Re: SSH and SFTP configuration Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Nov 2008 21:10:35 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: 150 year Message-ID: <6ojdmbF3sqfbU3@mid.individual.net> In article <4923846e$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Bob Koehler wrote: >>> In article <000db06b$0$12274$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei >>> writes: >>>> The Unix system time is just seconds in a 32 bit integer and it >>>> simplifies arithmetic being done. >>> >>> But provides a clock usefull over only 68 years. Don't try to use it >>> to support a business that plans to be in business for over 100 >>> years. >> >> I've heard rumors that most Unices either plan to adopt, or have >> adopted, a 64 bit time. > > AFAIK then Tru64, AIX, Solaris, MacOS X, FreeBSD, OpenBSD and > NetBSD all has 64 bit time (usually only when 64 bit version, > but I think it is safe to assume that 32 bit versions will be gone > long before 2038). What could possibly lead you to think that? You do realize there are still a lot of people running BSD 2.11, right? I expect 32bit and even 16bit unix to be around long after 2038. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:43:55 GMT From: Alfred Falk Subject: Re: Canadian Weather (was Re: In-house testing and patches) Message-ID: "Syltrem" wrote in news:m4YUk.315264$3I2.118505@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com: > Hmmm. > > Where in Canada is that ? Victoria ? > > I find a snowblower does a better job from December to March. > >:-) > > Syltrem > > "Fred Bach" wrote in message > news:gfsrl4$9fp$2@aioe.org... >> Michael Kraemer wrote: >>> JF Mezei schrieb: >>>> While picking up leaves, I got to think... (it happens sometimes). >>> >>> I always thought Canada would be buried unter several meters >>> of snow at this time of the year ... >> >> >> Are you kidding? I live in Canada too, and I use my lawnmower every >> month of the year. >> And yes, I do let my friends up in Edmonton know that, as often as I >> can. >> >> Today we're having pleasant spring-like weather, and I intend to cut >> the grass >> after work today. >> >> .. Fred Bach music at triumf dot c a Canadia is a large country and weather and climate is very different in different regions. Climatically, Edmonton is much colder than Victoria and decidedly colder than Toronto. But it's nearly semi-arid. It doesn't get a lot of snow. -8 C today but no snow. Got white for a day last week. Maybe again Friday. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- A L B E R T A Alfred Falk falk@arc.ab.ca R E S E A R C H Information Systems Dept (780)450-5185 C O U N C I L 250 Karl Clark Road Edmonton, Alberta, Canada http://www.arc.ab.ca/ T6N 1E4 http://outside.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:23:18 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: More strategic resource allocation from the HP/VMS congoscente Message-ID: On Nov 19, 8:19=A0am, IanMiller wrote: > On Nov 19, 12:19=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > Michael Kraemer wrote: > > > Richard Maher schrieb: > > >>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=3D08/11/18/1050594 > > > > There's nothing wrong with that. > > > Can only make VMS more attractive. > > > It is puzzling that they just released Seamonkey and would now release > > Firefox. > > > This would however show that they have developped the tools to > > facilitate the porting of such apps and middleware to VMS and can now d= o > > this much faster with fewer resources. > > A new browser based on firefox has been on the roadmap for a while. I wish it was Firefox 3, since 2 is very close to being shut down as far as updates and fixes. I guess they're doing both because losing all the other capabilities of the Mozilla package might have brought on more customer angst? I would rather have seen Firefox/Thunderbird/new packages, but whatever. Just wish it was more up to date. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:28:27 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: More strategic resource allocation from the HP/VMS congoscente Message-ID: <00107e2c$0$12288$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Rich Jordan wrote: > I guess they're doing both because losing all the other capabilities > of the Mozilla package might have brought on more customer angst? I > would rather have seen Firefox/Thunderbird/new packages, but > whatever. Just wish it was more up to date. But the fact that they were able to release both so close to each other would lead one to believe that they are now able to make those ports much faster. And that is a good sign. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:45:21 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: More strategic resource allocation from the HP/VMS congoscente Message-ID: <4924a509$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Rich Jordan wrote: >> I guess they're doing both because losing all the other capabilities >> of the Mozilla package might have brought on more customer angst? I >> would rather have seen Firefox/Thunderbird/new packages, but >> whatever. Just wish it was more up to date. > > But the fact that they were able to release both so close to each other > would lead one to believe that they are now able to make those ports > much faster. And that is a good sign. I see it as an indication of that they share a lot of code. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:35:59 +0000 From: Eric Subject: Re: OT: Former VMS guy need small free database Message-ID: On 2008-11-19, Randy Park wrote: > > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Randy Park wrote: >>> I know this is the wrong forum, but I used to lurk around here a lot >>> and I know that you guys will give a straight answer plus many of you >>> may have already done what I trying to do. >>> >>> First of all my background. I was a software developer from 1975 >>> until the late 1990s. I developed software on OpenVMS systems >>> eventually writing code to interface to Oracle, Ingres, Rdb, Sybase, >>> Progress, and Interbase databases, somtimes simultaneously. I would >>> use their native call routines whenever possible. I had very little >>> use for any tools that sat on top of the database engine other than >>> the interactive SQL tool. I also have very extensive experience with >>> indexed file structures (ISAM, B-Tree, etc.). I haven't done any >>> database development now for at least 15 years, so I'm a bit rusty. >>> Plus I'm now retired. >>> >>> I'm looking for free PC based database (I use that word loosely) >>> application development tool. I have a very small database >>> application that I need to develop for our hiking club. The club has >>> no money to buy any software, let alone any computers to run it. It >>> works with volunteers only. I volunteered to look at better solution >>> than a spreadsheet to keep track of the hikes and the hikers. I need >>> to develop this application in a manner that allows me to transfer the >>> entire application and database to someone else when I'm no longer >>> around, move away, get hit by a truck, or whatever. >>> >>> The application involves only 4 tables, 3 which will be relatively >>> stable once loaded, maybe 10% growth in number of rows per year, while >>> the 4th table will be fairly active, which will be basically a log of >>> every hike performed by every hiker. Two of the tables will have less >>> than 10 columns, while the other two may have up to 20 columns. >>> Pretty simple. >>> >>> I need to be able to have a tool that will allow me to develop a form >>> for easy adding, changing, and deleting of rows in each of the tables. >>> It would be nice if the form would allow some simple data validation >>> as it was entered by the end user, such as looking up the Hiker_ID in >>> the Hiker table when it is being entered into the Hike_Log table. I >>> also need to develop a few reports, some to validate the integrity of >>> the data and some to list subsets of the data. >>> >>> I looked at the Open Office suite and MySQL. After spending several >>> hours experimenting, the Open Office database product doesn't appear >>> to have the capabilities that I need. Some strange requirements >>> involving a unique integer primary index. Perusing the MySQL web >>> pages I was not able to find any free tool that allowed the data entry >>> form development. Maybe it's there, but I couldn't find it. >>> >>> Oracle appears to offer a FREE database product called Oracle 10g XE. >>> (I remember when they wanted thousands of $ from application software >>> developers to have their application support the Oracle database. So >>> seeing FREE was a nice surprise.) Their web page also indicates that >>> SQL developer is also free. But Oracle is so big and complex. The >>> reporting that I need appears to be available in SQL developer. I >>> haven't done enough research to see if it allows me to develop the >>> table maintenance forms that I want. >>> >>> Soooo.... Does anyone know of any free PC based database software >>> tools that provide for fairly simple table data maintenance using forms? >> >> The database is not the problem. >> >> There are big commercial databases with free edititions: >> Oracle >> MS SQLServer >> IBM DB2 >> Sybase >> typical they are called express edition and has a max. of 4 GB data. >> >> There are open source database: >> MySQL >> PostgreSQL >> FireBird >> Derby >> >> And then there are the embedded or embeddable databases: >> MS Access >> HypersonicSQL/HSQLDB/H2 >> MS SQLServer CE >> Firebird >> >> You need to decide on whether you want a server that can support >> multiple users or an embedded database which will work best for >> single user. >> >> Still possible. >> >> The problem is the tool to edit data. >> >> MS Access is probably easiest but it cost money unless you >> happen to have MS Office Pro already. >> >> OpenOffice is build on top of HSQLDB, but you don't like that. >> >> The typical DBA tool is not very end user friendly. >> >> You are sure that you don't want to slam some screens together in >> Java/C#/VB.NET - it is not that difficult - especially not >> with your background. >> >> Arne > > Thanks for the info. I will look at these. I spent time yesterday > looking at Oracle Express Edition. It is simply too big and complex of > a product for me to be able to pass on to someone else. I suspect the > other big free databases are the same way. SQLite? (www.sqlite.org) e. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:26:38 -0700 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Message-ID: <1227136851_1276@isp.n> shadoooo wrote: > On Nov 19, 2:01 am, Jeff Campbell wrote: >> shadoooo wrote: >>> I double checked with SCU the ARRE and ARWE, they are disabled. >> They have to be enabled for VMS. >> >> Jeff >> >> ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.pronews.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups >> ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > > I knew that the ARRE, ARWE should be disabled... I stand corrected. 8-) Just looked at the FAQ. I thought they had to be set to simulate MSCP BBR. Oh well. Jeff ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:14:24 +0100 From: hb Subject: Re: SSH and SFTP configuration Message-ID: Hi, u can't use a skunk, it smells too bad, neither a goat, it's to horny. Possibly a sheep, nope it too corny. To keep this serious... As far as I know, you can't use password authentication on OpenVMS, you have to exchange SSH-keys. Which is a science on it's own. If you are the client: ssh-keygen -h (I think) gives you info how to generate keys. No passphrase. Then transfer your publickey to the server system. Put "Idkey your_keyname" into the identification. file in your .ssh2 directory on the client. On your server system, well depends on OpenSSH or commerical and will of God. Anyway, after that you have to connect at least once interactively to get a host authentication. After that use sftp with "-B"filename.cmd where filename.cmd contains your sftp commands. Hope this helps Regards Hans David J Dachtera wrote: > "Skipper W. Morris" wrote: >> Does anyone have experience getting Host Based Authentication working >> for SSH and SFTP. >> >> What I really want to do is use SFTP from a batch job. However SFTP is >> written to make it impossible. It bombs out if you try and include the >> password in a file anywhere. >> >> The supported alternative is Host Based Authentication. This is sorta >> like DECnet proxy access, but much more complicated to setup. >> >> I've copied keygen files to directories, edited shost.equiv files, and >> done just about everything except sacrifice a goats entrails on my >> keyboard. But I *still* have to enter a password by hand. > > AH! See - there's your problem: goat. It's supposed to be a sheep. > > ...or a skunk - I forget... > > D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 2008 20:58:01 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <6ojcupF3sqfbU1@mid.individual.net> In article <49238a8e$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > > > Customer advocates are in other departments. Most likely > marketing. Well, that would explain why HP doesn't have any VMS customer advocates. No VMS marketing dept!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 2008 21:02:04 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <6ojd6cF3sqfbU2@mid.individual.net> In article <8660a3a10811182346m5d853067y43ee2725594cea64@mail.gmail.com>, "William Webb" writes: > On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM, JF Mezei wrote: >> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> HP has 320000 employees (per Wikipedia). >>> >>> A cut of 5-10% will mean 16000-32000 people. >>> >>> I have no idea about the size of VMS engineering, but >>> I am pretty sure that it is completely insignificant >>> compared to those numbers. >> >> >> When rounds of cuts start, this high management guys with power >> negotiate sweeter deals for their division in exchange for harsher cuts >> in some other division. >> >> So Stallard might negotiate a 5% cut for his strategic disk array unit, >> while having 35% cuts in the non strategic VMS (exageration here, just >> to make the point) >> >> >> Remember that HP's goal is to claim VMS is still being developped. >> Whether 8.4 comes out in 2008, 2009 or 2010 doesn't really change HP's >> abilities to claim VMS is still being developped. There is no >> competition for VMS. >> >> But there is competition for wintel boxes and for ink, so making cuts in >> those divisions would result in HP lagging behind competitors and losing >> its #1 position. >> >> Obviously, if demand for PCs and ink drops and they now only need 2 >> shifts at the assembly plants, then they can fire the 3rd shift. >> > Remember that HP's goal is to claim VMS is still being developped. > Whether 8.4 comes out in 2008, 2009 or 2010 doesn't really change HP's > abilities to claim VMS is still being developped. > I'm tired of this shit, jf. > I can't discuss what I saw, when, or why. > What's planned for the future is nothing short of amazing. It blew me away. Wow!! This is just like all those government sites that brag constantly about their MS installs but are prohibited from even mentioning their use of VMS. "I would tell you, but then I would have to kill you." bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:26:31 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Consider that even some of the VMS engineers who participated here last >>> century did not see the usefulness of marketing/advertising. So it seems >>> to me that there may be a strong cultural issue within the VMS group >>> which accepts readily HP's decisions to not try to market VMS and not >>> fight for advertising budgets. >>> >>> If the VMS group as a whole, has an image of not fighting back and just >>> taking it, it becomes even easier for Stallard/Livermore to shift job >>> cuts to VMS to reduce impact on the other departments. >> I would expect VMS engineers to do the job they are paid to do >> not act as c.o.v ambassadors within HP. >> >> If not they would become ex VMS engineers rather quickly. > > Yeah - heaven forbid that the customer's voice should be heard and > responded to. > > Meanwhile, other corporations are expanding their "customer advocate" > departments, while HP invents new ways to ignore the customer. > > Bonus question: Who can tell the class where that will ultimately lead? > > D.J.D. Ink and toner will rule the world??????? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:11:59 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <00107a51$0$12283$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> William Webb wrote: > I'm tired of this shit, jf. > I can't discuss what I saw, when, or why. > What's planned for the future is nothing short of amazing. It blew me away. Alpha had equally impressive public and NDA futures on June 24th 2001. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:51:02 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <4924a65d$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> William Webb wrote: > On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM, JF Mezei wrote: >> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> HP has 320000 employees (per Wikipedia). >>> >>> A cut of 5-10% will mean 16000-32000 people. >>> >>> I have no idea about the size of VMS engineering, but >>> I am pretty sure that it is completely insignificant >>> compared to those numbers. >> >> When rounds of cuts start, this high management guys with power >> negotiate sweeter deals for their division in exchange for harsher cuts >> in some other division. >> >> So Stallard might negotiate a 5% cut for his strategic disk array unit, >> while having 35% cuts in the non strategic VMS (exageration here, just >> to make the point) >> >> Remember that HP's goal is to claim VMS is still being developped. >> Whether 8.4 comes out in 2008, 2009 or 2010 doesn't really change HP's >> abilities to claim VMS is still being developped. There is no >> competition for VMS. >> >> But there is competition for wintel boxes and for ink, so making cuts in >> those divisions would result in HP lagging behind competitors and losing >> its #1 position. >> >> Obviously, if demand for PCs and ink drops and they now only need 2 >> shifts at the assembly plants, then they can fire the 3rd shift. > > Remember that HP's goal is to claim VMS is still being developped. > Whether 8.4 comes out in 2008, 2009 or 2010 doesn't really change HP's > abilities to claim VMS is still being developped. > > I'm tired of this shit, jf. > > I can't discuss what I saw, when, or why. > > What's planned for the future is nothing short of amazing. It blew me away. If you can not tell us about it, then there are really no point in mentioning it. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:34:40 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <4924BEB0.E2DC52CA@spam.comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> David J Dachtera wrote: > >>> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >>>> Richard Maher wrote: > >>>>>> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing > >>>>>> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. > >>>>> No, I think you'll find that many such systems are being turned-off (for the > >>>>> last time) quite regularly. > >>>> The number of VMS systems are decreasing. But they are not easy targets > >>>> for cost cuts, because 1) they are business critical > >>> Still replaceable. reference: the Healthcare market, formerly a staunch > >>> VMS stronghold, now being moved to (mostly non-HP) UN*X, thanx to HP. > >>> > >>>> 2) it takes time > >>>> and cost money to migrate to another platform. If it was easy to move > >>>> off VMS, then it probably would have been done already. > >>> It has been and is being done, even as you read this as healthcare sites > >>> abandon a platform no longer supported by the ISVs. The cost of > >>> transition is considered irrelevant compared to the risk of stagnating > >>> at the ISVs' last supported VMS releases. > >> All true. > >> > >> But still not relevant for the context. > >> > >> When the the numbers go in red and the CIO needs to do something to > >> improve next quarter, then starting a platform migration of some complex > >> VMS systems is not the way to go. > > > > Trouble is, CIOs don't see it that way. All they see is a legacy > > platform with limited performance, all but extinct ISV and customer > > bases, an all but extinct field of trained, experienced professionals > > from which to hire, and hardware and software support costs spiralling > > upward out of control while their own user base is demanding more > > features, more compute power, more responsiveness, more - more - more. > > If they don't see it that way, then the CEO will kick them out and > hire a CIO that knows that this type of platform migration > cost money here and now. > > >> The recession is not going to accelerate the demise of VMS - it is > >> much more likely going to slow it down. > > > > I wish that were the case. However, such has not been my experience, nor > > the experience of many of my other peers to date, unfortunately. > > What recessions do you base that experience on ? How were the financial markets in Europe in the early 90's? With the current recession coming on the heels of Cerner's abandonment of VMS, the choice to migrate is a non-issue: migration (away from VMS) is forced by the ISV. D.J.D. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.628 ************************