From: SMTP%"PROBLEMS@TDR.COM" 9-APR-1994 10:04:59.88 To: EVERHART CC: Subj: 0022 - Replies to #19 "The Club" Message-Id: <199404091034.AA22094@access2.digex.net> Date: Sat, 09 Apr 1994 06:32:00 -0500 EDT From: Problem Reporting Service Errors-To: ERROR-LIST@TDR.COM Subject: 0022 - Replies to #19 "The Club" To: PROBLEMS@TDR.COM Problems Digest Sat, 09 Apr 1994 Volume 94 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: A whole new line of work? The Club (9 Messages) Administrivia: To subscribe or cancel, write to PROBLEMS-REQUEST@TDR.COM. To send a message to the list, write to PROBLEMS@TDR.COM. Please feel free to reprint items appearing in this list. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Apr 1994 06:00:00 -0500 From: Paul Robinson Subject: A whole new line of work? Judging from the responses I got on "The Club", I suspect a number of you could, if you decided to quit being in the computer industry, do nicely either in the field of car thefts, or in the related field of auto reposessions (where "car thefts" are legal...) Based on the quality of ideas on ways to steal cars from the readership here, I wonder whether it's that we have a "higher quality" of readers who know how to steal cars, or whether many people know how, and just don't do it because they are to proud to steal. Interesting question. Two entries came in to me privately, so I have deleted the identifications of the people who sent them to me, the reason for including them being that both of them independently recommended Freon(R) as a means to pop the lock on "The Club". I'll note that because of international environmental treaties, the government is phasing out Freon in favor of another substance that is toxic, corrosive, less effective and costs more, based on a theory that CFCs damage the ozone layer, which some consider to be a sham theory that will cost the world a trillion dollars a year for no benefit. Or perhaps it's being done to keep people from breaking locks? Inquiring minds want to know.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 23:14:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Hennigan Subject: The Club On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Problem Reporting Service wrote: > Capsule: A person may use "The Club" to protect their car from > being stolen, whereupon the thief doesn't go after the > anti-theft device, he cuts the steering wheel and > removes it! "The Club" as a security device is strictly a visual deterrent. The lock is a cheap wafer type that is easily picked using a metal ballpoint pen clip as a tension wrench and a paper clip as a pick. It can also be shimmed by sliding a piece of celluloid (film negative) or spring stock between the ratchet and the bar. Nor is the material particularly strong. One can grab the center of it (preferably with thick gloves) and pull (may require feet on the dashboard), and bend it enough that it will pop off. Alternatively, anyone looking for a particular make of car such as a chop shop that strips stolen cars for parts will simply bring along a replacement steering wheel of the correct type and a socket wrench. Pop off the horn button and swap wheels. Anyone with the ability to bypass a standard automotive door and/or ignition lock (car thieves, tow truck drivers, etc.) will not be intimidated or slowed by the "Club". Another problem with the Club is that it attracts attention to the car with it's bright color ("This car is valuable"), so that while the owner may find his car still there, the radio is likely to be gone. Persons serious about deterring car thieves would be far better off with a decent alarm system. This is discussed in some detail in the alt.locksmithing FAQ. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 94 16:24:34 +1000 (Wed) From: Tom Evans Subject: The Club I wasn't sure whether I should post this. I don't mind at all. Here's some extra information on the Club and friends. It is probably as inappropriate as the first article was (i.e., should be on some newsgroup/mailing list, but probably not here). I send this for your interest, but feel free to post a summary of the following if you find it interesting. A few weeks ago a consumer investigations program on our channel 2 called "The Investigators" did a special on these devices, and in particular the locally-sold version of The Club, which is imported from the USA. The presenter demonstrated that he could easily remove these devices with what seemed to be his bare hands. The first time it was demonstrated he put a towel over the camera (so we couldn't see). In subsequent occasions they "fuzzed" the screen in the area of the "action". He then got the local distributor of The Club, who demanded that the latest (toughened, strengthened etc) version be tested and not one of the older models. The presenter removed two older ones in short order, and then removed the latest one in about six SECONDS, admitting that it was harder to remove. A few days later the importer sent a new-new version that had a hardened-steel hook welded on, with a promise that he would get the USA manufacturer to improve the design. In all cases after removal the upper "hook" on the clubs had been opened out sufficiently to unhook them from the wheel. The local consumer newspaper "Choice" and the NRMA automobile-driver's association also tested them, and failed 14/15 and 14/17 of the units they tested respectively (these numbers from memory). The story is going around that some schoolchildren were visiting the Choice offices at the time of the test, and they (the children) demonstrated how easy the devices could be overcome. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 08:01:29 -0400 From: padgett@tccslr.dnet.mmc.com Subject: The Club Even faster to pop the horn button, remove the nut (15/16" for most American cars), and pop the wheel off (well under a minute and no sawing). On any car with power steering, a pair of vicegrips will then provide an ample tiller for steering. I use a Club on my collector cars but then car shows are not a good place to steal a car (discovered thief can only pray the authorities get there in time...) Padgett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 14:06:26 METDST From: Brendan McKenna Subject: The Club I, personally, see no problem with your reporting on security problems in general, rather than on strictly computer related problems. I am amazed that people would have heartburn about reporting OS/2 probelms instead of "pure" Unix problems, but c'est la vie, I guess. Physical security does impact the security of computer systems, and if you leave your computer in your car, well.... it is tenuous. Perhaps you should consider adding a second list that deals with non-computer related security problems. I'd certainly subscribe to that, too. I think you're providing an important service, and I thank you for taking your time to do it. If other people complain, so be it. If it is that much of a problem for them, let them start reporting problems however they feel is appropriate (I'll bet you'll have very few takers on that front!). Keep up the good work! Brendan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:50:38 -0400 From: Nathan Loofbourrow Subject: The Club Well, a better thief uses the principle of "a chain is only as strong as its' weakest link." Instead of trying to cut the bar, all he needs to do is cut through the steering wheel with a cheap hacksaw, and remove the bar! He can then pop the ignition with an ignition puller or similar device, and either push the wires together or attach a replacement ignition switch and drive off. Just to provide general agreement, I experienced a related syndrome in which the (presumed thieves) chose, rather than to steal my car, to set it on fire instead. (It was only a few days after the Rodney King riots in LA, so perhaps it was politically motivated -- this was in Pittsburgh, though -- but no matter) In any case, it was somewhat amusing under the circumstances to note that The Club was in cooked but otherwise mint condition on the floor of the car, having happily survived the melting of the steering wheel. nathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 12:20:59 From: "F. PHILIP HAASE" Subject: The Club >Some of you will >probably get mad and cancel your subscriptions, just as what happened >with the OS/2 issue. > I was very surprised by this piece of information. Why would people cancel their subscriptions over that. I read the piece and you had the same feelings I did when I first got involved with OS2. I can't understand people who make using a operating system a religion. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 23:44 EDT From: Menkus@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL Subject: The Club Your posting on The Club is extremely helpful. However, you may be interested in knowing that some of the thieves who work the more expensive cars to do stoop to using hacksaws. They steal nitrogent spray cans from refrigeration shows, spray this stuff on the metal bar, and shatter it with minimal damage to the vehicle. The bad guys continue to get better. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Apr 1994 06:00:00 -0500 From: Unnamed 1 Subject: The Club I can't imagine canceling subscriptions over something like that, but anyway! People like to complain at every opportunity, but I just wanted to write to support you on this message. I knew about THE CLUB, but I'm sure not everyone knew about it. The other problem with THE CLUB is the very low-quality lock, I've heard of the criminals here in [a large American City] using freon or something similar to freeze the lock and shatter it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Apr 1994 06:00:00 -0500 From: Unnamed 2 Subject: The Club Even cutting through the bar can take too long. According to my brother (who lives in [a large American city] where car thefts are pretty common), the easiest way to break "the club" is to spray freon into the lock and twist the cylinder, thereby breaking the pins and opening the lock. If true (and it sounds plausable), this would only take seconds! ------------------------------ End of Problems Digest V94 Issue #22 ************************************